July 14, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our weekly Sunday night discussion
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows:
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "D/s -- Nature or Nurture?". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> So... the age-old debate. :-)
<saucyboy> :o)
<BernieRoehl> Do we feel that D/s desires come from our upbring (nurture) or from our genes (nature)?
<saucyboy> put me down for nature Bernie..
<BernieRoehl> That's one vote for nature :-)
<arhiannah> i'm inclined to believe it's nature also
<Rejiri> It's an interesting question - and I'm not 100% sure of my answer. (Mr. Fence-sitter. :-)
<jewel`{F}> i think that the D/s comes from nature but the fetishes from nurture
<_Talula_> I'm with Aaron, I'm be on the fence too
<BernieRoehl> So far it's three to zero for nature, with two abstentions :-)
<`abi> I'm on the fence too, but only because I like sitting on those pointy things ;)
<_Celtic_> I think it could be a bit of both but mostly nature
<jewel`{F}> we are either naturally Dominant or submissive
* BernieRoehl smiles at abi
<Rejiri> Judging by how I figured out what I'm primarily interested in, an outside observer might say it was nature with me - but envt. might have "set the stage".
<saucyboy> sillyabi..
* BernieRoehl thinks this could be a very short discussion *smile*
<dalian> I think probably a balance of both
<jewel`{F}> why is that Sir?
<saucyboy> reasons why we think so?
<arhiannah> does it set the stage or are they mearly props we surround ourselves with because of the nature?
<BernieRoehl> We seem to have a consensus that nature is a powerful influence
* jewel`{F} asks as she gets up on the fence with `abi and the pointy things
<`abi> I think that there is a predisposition ... but situations and relationships can cause that predisposition to flourish or to wither
<BernieRoehl> Of course, there's much more to it than that (I was being a bit facetious)
<_Celtic_> what if one is raised by a dominate or submissive parent, what affect would that have??
<Rejiri> I suppose nature's a big part... but how it's expressed I'm sure depends on the envt.
<saucyboy> I tend to lump D/s tendencies with the likes of homosexuality... same feelings of "different" at an early age..
<`abi> absolutely none that I can see Celtic
<Rejiri> How about if you're raised by a dominant _&_ a sub parent? :-)
<_Celtic_> I just dont know abi
<BernieRoehl> I've known Doms who were raised by Dominant parents, by submissve parents, and by one of each -- haven't noticed any pattern yet
<jewel`{F}> i know that i am a naturally submissive person, i just didn't realize how so untill Master started to push those limits with His expectations of me
<_Celtic_> its odd thing to pin point
<saucyboy> i'd agree Bernie..
<arhiannah> we blossom under guidance that nurtures our nature
<Rejiri> I'll go with the "early age difference" idea - but I'm not sure how much effect that really has.
<saucyboy> D/s didn't blossom for me.. it was a secret for a very long time.. no guidance at al..
<_Celtic_> same here saucy
<arhiannah> ok...*i* did then :)
<saucyboy> in fact, the first bit of guidance i got, interestingly enough.. was from this room. :o)
<jewel`{F}> saucyboy i think a lot of us are late bloomers as it were
<saucyboy> think so jewel`{F} ..
<arhiannah> exactly jewel
<dalian> I'm submissive by nature, but raised by a dominant parent, which only casued me to be rebelious...did not encourage my nature at all
<Rejiri> Well, late blooming is logical - because one likely tries vanilla stuff first
<`abi> speaking of parenting ... my granddog has arrived ... bbiab
<saucyboy> for sure Rejiri ...
<_Celtic_> and probley pressure to conform to sociaty expectations Rejiri
<Rejiri> True - conforming is easy.
<_Celtic_> no one wants to stand out
<_Talula_> is it really a question of conforming?
<saucyboy> some of us found ourselved far too far down the vanilla path to change without affecting others..
<_Talula_> I mean
<_Talula_> "straight" is just the default setting
<saucyboy> :o)
<_Talula_> for most anyway
<jewel`{F}> too true saucyboy
<_Celtic_> hmm interesting Talula never thought that before
<arhiannah> i stopped conforming the day i asked my soon to be ex to leave
<Rejiri> Ok, here's a question - if it's nature vs nurture, at what ages did people figure out their interest?
<_Talula_> I was "closested" so to speak because I really didnt know any different
<arhiannah> lol...and all hell broke loose in arhi's house :)
<_Talula_> not so much a societal expectation
<_Celtic_> took me to be exposed to d/s to know what I was
<jewel`{F}> with me i think it has always been there, it just took the right person to really let me be me and to have that control
<BernieRoehl> I was 17 when I first began exploring it, but found it was very natural for me (once I got over the initial uncertainty)
<saucyboy> earliest recollection for me Rejiri would be about 7-8
<Rejiri> With me, I found out ~ age 14ish. After a bit of experimentation I set it aside for a while until I could get out of a one-horse, gossipy town.
<_Talula_> I was dressing my bf in dresses when I was in high school
<_Talula_> what a swinging guy :)
<saucyboy> :o)
<_Celtic_> gessss lol
<dalian> for me it was about 7 and I though my perversions were normal until I realized that "nobody" ever talked about it, so I thought I was the weird one until in my teens and met an older Dom
<BernieRoehl> So it seems as if society's only influence on us is to prevent us from following our desires until we have the courage to ignore society's expectations
<saucyboy> same here dalian ... just unclear on what it was..
<_Celtic_> think alot are in d/s relationships and dont know it
<_Talula_> agreed, Celtic
<_Celtic_> wanting to control your gf at 15 was umm not a good thing
<Rejiri> I think you're right on the society thing Bernie, but what about family?
<Rejiri> I think my family _might_ have been an influence on the kink.
<BernieRoehl> I've sort of lumped family in with "society", but I can certainly see how they might be different
* sraana{KQ} muses
<Rejiri> Agreed Celtic - it's very non-PC. :-/
<BernieRoehl> In what way, Rejiri?
<saucyboy> I'm almost positive we're born with it.. but don't know for sure if it's genetic or not... perhaps something during fetal development... dunno
<sraana{KQ}> i was adopted... my family that i grew up with are very 'nilla... but i have found my blood family... and have found that my younger brother is also into BDSM...
<sraana{KQ}> i am convinced it's genetic in a way
<jewel`{F}> for me seeing my mom at home with us kids and dad going off to work, mom always letting dad make the final decisions influenced me i am sure
<Rejiri> Well, my Mom was fairly dominant on the surface - probably compensation for being a housewife. It took me a long time to realize how much my Dad influenced / ran things etc.
<_Celtic_> sounds like how I grew up too jewel
<saucyboy> that's interesting sraana{KQ} ..
<_Talula_> mom is a raging christian, I have a thing for clerical collars and catholic school girl uniforms... perhaps I am rebelling?
<Rejiri> Well sraana, I don't know if any of my family is into it. However, my Dad's so nice he may be repressing / compensating. :-)
<saucyboy> single Mom for me... very nice lady.. not too Dominant at all..
<jewel`{F}> now if my brothers ever found out just what sort of relationship that Master and i have they would not be pleases
<sraana{KQ}> i have found that there are so many things that influenced me that i didn't know of until i met my blood family
<sraana{KQ}> i know my adoptive family would not understand at all... it's only my younger brother who knows... seeing as he understands being there too
<arhiannah> my brothers are so square compared to me that even my sisters in law comment on how they can't believe we're from the same family
<_Celtic_> I was told once when I first learned of d/s that ether you are or not
<saucyboy> would you all say that bdsm is absolutely something you can't live without, or just a choice to spice things up?
<sraana{KQ}> i didn't figure out this part of me until i was 30... to me it explains in part how i ended up in an abusive relationship before figuring this part of me out.
<sraana{KQ}> i know i will never be able to go back to how i was before BDSM.
<Rejiri> I kind of suspect my brother & sister are vanilla - for starters, what would be the odds? :-) Secondly, they had a way easy time in high school compared to me. :-)
<jewel`{F}> i have certainly learned recently the difference between Dominant and domineering
<Rejiri> For me, going back to before BDSM would feel like going back to before air. :-)
<jewel`{F}> i could not go back now
<sraana{KQ}> Rejiri> exactly how i feel
<_Celtic_> bdsm is aa part of me sraana, could never go back
<_Talula_> my extended family is very straight and narrow... When I was 18, I found out about a 1/2 brother I have (but still havent met), when I was 22 I found out about his history and mince was frighteningly similar
<Rejiri> Still, given that most of us feel we can't go back - is that from within or is the Scene just so nice / welcoming?
<_Talula_> event though he has a totally different mom and is atleast 20 years older than me
<_Talula_> mince=mine
<_Celtic_> Scene ??
<BernieRoehl> Even before the current warm and welcoming scene existed, people who crossed over from vanilla found they couldn't go back
<saucyboy> is that by choice or because they are "hardwired"?
<sraana{KQ}> i know for me... it's not the scene... it's that i have finally figured myself out... and luckily i have also found my match
<saucyboy> i think the lifestyle sports both folk..
<_Celtic_> I dont bother with the scene but can see that
<jewel`{F}> for me it is who i am, yes the community has been very welcoming and protective of me, but i would be lost like on a trip with no map or directions
<Rejiri> Personally, I think most people that come out are really nice, intelligent, etc - definitely above average. But I suspect some other groups might be the same - but I'm not interested in them. :-)
<saucyboy> so we can agree that most of us are here because we need to be, not because we chose to...
<sraana{KQ}> i know i'd still be lost even in the "scene" if i hadn't found the right one to lead me
<jewel`{F}> that too sraana{KQ}
<BernieRoehl> So... we've established that much of our D/s nature is part of who we are, rather than something we've learned or acquired. The interesting question is... why?
<_Celtic_> is there a good answer to that Bernie??
<jewel`{F}> why are You a male and i a female Sir?
<_Talula_> I have ADD, so I am a huge senastaion seeker... for me, I tink that is why
<sahara^> if I may interject...wouldn't that be because we are either born submissive or Dominant?
<Rejiri> Why? Don't ask me. :-) I suspect there may be a different answer for everyone.
<saucyboy> i think that statement Bernie stongly points to the theory that we are born this way..
<arhiannah> coz his plumbing is outdoor jewel
<_Celtic_> lol
* jewel`{F} fwaps arhiannah
<BernieRoehl> Let me clarify.... :-)
<arhiannah> remember that talk we had...
<jewel`{F}> i know that
* arhiannah giggles
<BernieRoehl> Yes, we're born this way -- something in our genes makes us Dominant or submissive, just as something in our genes makes us male or female. The question is "why did this trait evolve?"
<sahara^> i don't choose to be who I am in the bedroom... nature dictates that for me
<saucyboy> Million Dollar question.... that's why i'm in therapy... lol
<sraana{KQ}> _Talula_> along the same lines as Bernie's question though... why would one be ADD/ADHD ... why would one be into BDSM?
<Rejiri> I think it's still unproven that "genes" are involved - just like identical twins can be different heights (bad example) - some people just may be at the ends of a bell curve.
<_Celtic_> only thing I can think of is its in the genes somehow
<saucyboy> i still think it paralells homosexuality..
<sahara^> hell Sir... this evolved from the first amaeba.. all animals display the Dominat-submissive trait
<sraana{KQ}> myself i'd answer those questions with the thought that perhaps we are closer to our more primitive roots... and as such it would have been a benefit to function in such a fashion in order to survive
<_Talula_> sraana: easy, most people with ADD/ADHD are huge adrenalin/endorphin junkies, this is probably because our (para?) sympathetic nervous systems are on high anyway
<_Celtic_> maybe something needed in the dark past of evolution
<BernieRoehl> ... and we know there's a genetic basis for homosexuality, so it stands to reason that D/s would have a similar basis
<Rejiri> I also think it may parallel homosexuality - but that could be determined fetally / early childhood.
<saucyboy> we do know homosexuality is genetic?
<Rejiri> Actually, pretty weak evidence on "gay genes".
<saucyboy> amazing..
<jewel`{F}> i think that there are many out there that are either Dominant of submissive but never find the right one or way to nurture it, there are just a few of us lucky enough to find someone or place to help us find ourselves and nuture us to our full potential
<_Talula_> sraana: but that explains more the S/m than the D/s side of it
<saucyboy> and how does all this explain switches?
<saucyboy> lol
<sahara^> well.. y'all are pre-supposing that these triats are not inherent in man as an animal
<Rejiri> Good point jewel - my opinion is kind of that there's kinky, vanilla, and people who haven't been exposed enough to kink to know. :-)
<sraana{KQ}> _Talula_> no... being D/s is also survival...
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, sahara^ -- many animals display D/s traits. That suggests there's some survival/breeding related reason for their existence
<jewel`{F}> or are so conditioned by up brining or society that they feel their inner deisres are wrong
<saucyboy> well for me... i didn't know much of what D/s was at an early age.. but understood what side of the fence i fell on right away..
<Rejiri> Got to disagree here, saucyboy - I was pretty sub until I hit puberty - and then domness showed up.
<saucyboy> interesting Rejiri ...
* saucyboy tears up all his notes..
<Rejiri> In fact, might have been a reaction. :-)
<sahara^> all animals ( humans included) display the "Hunter gatherer" mentality what kmakes the D/s group different?
<jewel`{F}> are not all children somewhat submissive as we guide them into the best people that they can be?
<Rejiri> Err... how does hunter gatherer go with D/s? I think I lost track of something there.
<_Talula_> my personal fear with saying bdsm is nature, is that it can be used as an excuse for bad behavior
<Rejiri> yes, all children are somewhat sub - but I took after my Dad's sub exterior.
<sahara^> Dominant/submissive
* Kilted_One thinks that sahara^ should consider the major difference between animals and humans in this respect...."we do it conciously, not by instinct"
<_Talula_> ie: he couldnt help raping her, it was in his genes
<sahara^> men were hunters.. female were gatherers
<Rejiri> I really don't think D/s is a conscious matter. Much more instinct-level, with me.
<sahara^> aahh yes Sir.. but do we? do it consciously that is.
<saucyboy> i agree Rejiri ..
* sraana{KQ} comes from a background where everyone gathered... everyone was warrior...
<Kilted_One> it maybe instinctive but we make conscious decisions to carry out whatever kink we are into
<_Celtic_> that is so true Kilted
<sahara^> aahh, but that is another issue Sir.. we were chatting on the inherence of D/s I think:)
<_Celtic_> animals dont do that
<BernieRoehl> I think we can certainly choose to consciously overrule (or follow) our instincts. My personal sense is that we're happiest when we follow our instincts.
<Rejiri> True, there's conscious decisions involved - but how long can you fight a preference? Ask some gays about the 1950s, perhaps.
<sahara^> but they ARE instincts none the less..yes?
<Kilted_One> most likely true Bernie, as a result of "less internal conflict"??
<Rejiri> Instincts or subconscous preference? I'm not sure.
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, KO
<saucyboy> indeed BernieRoehl ... my current situation makes me overrule my instinct.... and it's driving me crazy..
* Kilted_One laughs at saucyboy knowing it could be a short drive in his case???
<saucyboy> lol KO.. must be Brantford water..
* Kilted_One nods
<odalisque> I can only add to the discussion by saying that my earliest fantasies (aroudn age 5 or so) involved D/s
<_Celtic_> 5 wow
<BernieRoehl> Which again suggests that it's part of our nature, odalisque
<jewel`{F}> my fanatasies and even dreams have always had a Dominant person involved
<odalisque> Also I suppose that for me sex *has* to be with me as the submissive or there is no interest on my part
<Rejiri> Ah, but are there any Doms that caught on at 5ish? That would be required to prove "nature".
<sahara^> mine involved a white knight on a black horse coming to rescue me (the princess) and stealing me away.... if that isn't a D/s daydream I don't know what is heh
<saucyboy> exactly the same for me odalisque ... vanilla sex does nothing for me
<odalisque> Well for me Bernie yes but perhaps not for all
<saucyboy> (which causes large problems in a vanilla relationship by the way)
* Kilted_One hardrive doesnt go back that far in history to remember what he did when he was 15 never mind 5
<jewel`{F}> yup stuff like that sahara^,
<odalisque> I don't think the issue has to fall into *all* either nature or nurture. Science doesn't support that idea in other areas either
<BernieRoehl> And yet, there's a lot more research these days that leans towards nature rather than nurture (for a variety of traits)
<_Talula_> if you follow socioboligists
<Rejiri> True Bernie, but what are the implications if we start saying everything is more nature-ish? Could get problematic.
<sahara^> when I met my Master, I had no clue I was a submissive. I am actually a very Dominant woman in my area of expertise. He showed me sides of my sexual nature that I could only have dreamed about and had I not met him I would in all liklihood have lived my life vanilla.
<odalisque> Any research is done by researchers who start with a thesis and therefore are more likely to find findings to support their beliefs
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps, Rejiri, but that doesn't change the results of the research
<Kilted_One> I remember something that Jack McGeorge said...."we all have a submissive and Dominant side to us, those who think that is not true just havent been honest enough with themselves yet, or looked hard enough"
<sahara^> what I am trying to clumsily say is that I feel D/s is an inherent trait in all of mankind
<jewel`{F}> i know what you mean sahara^, i would still be very much vanilla were it not for meeting my Master as well
<Rejiri> Right KO - but my sub side isn't linked in with the sexuality. :-)
<sahara^> well said KO.. well said:)
<jen{SE}> submission does not have to have anythign to do with sexuality, it is a nature, not a kink
<jen{SE}> kink is different
<`abi> I agree with him KO ... although I don't think it is 'sides' so much as it is 'parts' ... but perhaps that's just semantics
<jewel`{F}> agreed jen{SE}
<`abi> oh, I think it has alot to do with sexuality jen ... submission is very definitely part of my sexuality
* Kilted_One nods at abigaille, that is what he meant, and most likely I am mis-quoting him
<_Talula_> I odnt think subvmissiveness is nature, necesarily
<sahara^> yes exactly jun{SE} but I do feel that given the right recipe.. they can be one and the same
<jewel`{F}> people can have a very deep D/s relationship with out the kink or the play
* _Talula_ rummages thru her soc notes
<_Talula_> I cant find it, but there was a famous study done in the 60's with some uni students
<_Talula_> I wish I could find the who.what/where...
* `abi rereads jen's post ... sorry ... I missed the qualifier :)
<_Talula_> basically, people were divided into prisoner and prison guards
<jen{SE}> you can be submissive with out sexuality, also at a Jack McGeorge session and also Lady Blake, there are many Master/slave relationships where there is no sex
<jen{SE}> you can also be submisive with your sexuality
<_Talula_> done randomly... the study had to end when the prison gaurds were taking their roles to seriously, and the prisonrs were too
<jen{SE}> does not have to be one or the other but does not have to be both
* sraana{KQ} wants to be a prisoner... but only if the guards frisk me... LOL
<sahara^> there are also many submissives that are only submissive thru sex
<_Talula_> very extreme, but showed that dominant and submissive behaviour between humans can be learned
<`abi> but any behaviour can be learned Talula
<_Talula_> agreed
<BernieRoehl> Well, we're into the final five minutes of tonight's discussion. Anyone have anything they'd like to add?
<saucyboy> Myself i feel it's nature... but may not be the same for some..
<saucyboy> (Based on personal experience)
<sraana{KQ}> i agree for myself too... nature...
<Rejiri> I don't know whether it's nature or nurture with me - but it's not going away. :-)
<`abi> I don't think that you can create a submissive or a dominant, but I do think that you can nurture those traits.
<jen{SE}> i believe it is nature, but can be grown, expanded and enhanced
<saucyboy> lol Rejiri
<_Celtic_> its nature with me also
<sahara^> it's nature for me as well.. but not in the board room.. only the bedroom
<fiestyone> nature for me........
<_Talula_> I'm still fince sitting, but probably leaning on the nurture side to a small degree *g*
<`abi> well, if you people all agreed, what the heck did you talk about for an hour?
<BernieRoehl> Nature for me as well
<saucyboy> lol abi..
* BernieRoehl smiles at abi
<sahara^> hell my Master used to tie up his freakin' babysuitters at 5 yrs old :)
<fiestyone> and at my house...barbie and ken did not go to the soda shop
<Rejiri> good one sahara :-)
<sahara^> if that ain't nature i don't know what is
<BernieRoehl> Well, let's wrap up the formal part of the discussion here. Please feel free to continue chatting informally.
<`abi> but how many of them liked it sahara^ :)
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated in tonight's discussion!
<saucyboy> thanx Bernie
<sahara^> from what he remembers.. they all did lol
<saucyboy> hey KO.. Brantford is getting it's first munch.. you goin?
<`abi> lol
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
<fiestyone> sorry i was only able to catch the last bit here
<sahara^> that could be his precocious memory at work tho
<Kilted_One> good job Bernie