July 11 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

Session Start: Sun Jul 11 21:01:03 1999

* Logging #bdsm-kw to '#bdsm_kw.log'

<kashina-> "What Qualities are Attractive in a Dom or sub?"

<kashina-> anyone want to open tonight?

<MistressAstra> a submissive who knows what they want and dont play mind games !!!

<`lucius> hygene

<kashina-> good start MistressAstra

<MistressAstra> LOL,lucius

<jalyn> an IQ over 75

<katiias> "presence"

<`Hardest> tits....a good subbie has to have boobies...big'uns little ones don't matter

<MistressAstra> penis also for me Hardest

<kashina-> i think that's a given Hardest lol

<kashina-> how bout compassion.....a sense of honour....understanding....respect

<`lucius> empathy is necassary in a Dom.

<ti`mara> a Dom/Domme that pushes a slaves limits

* kashina- smiles at Bernie and kisses Him softly

<jalyn> someone who understands the responsibility of the end of the leash that they hold

* BernieRoehl returns kashina's kiss, smiling

<kashina-> pushes a slaves/subs limits within the realm that she is capable of

<Wolfe^en> & beyond

* kashina- passes huggers on to Bernie from tru....who is visiting for the weekend :))

<`Hardest> how 'bout a sub who remebers there are two ppl in the realtionship

<MasterZarith> Hello folks

* kashina- smiles and nods to MasterZarith :))

<ti`mara> but of course kashina but He or She has to know when to stopp too

<Wolfe^en> ***this sounds more like a bitch session***

<kashina-> that goes both ways Hardest

<ti`mara> hello Master Zarith

* MasterZarith smiles back

<jalyn> that should go both ways Hardest

<MasterZarith> hi ti`mara

<Wolfe^en> I needed someone who was as bent as Me

<kashina-> i hardly doubt it is a bitch session Wolf....these are opinions and views....all very important references

<kashina-> bending in what ways Wolf?

<Leather`n`Lace> Good Evening A/all :)

<Wolfe^en> bent as in wanting to go beyond limits

<ti`mara> greetings Leather n Lace Ma'am

<kashina-> welcome Leather`n`Lace...... the topic tonight is "What Qualities are Attractive in a Dom or sub?"

* Leather`n`Lace smiles at ti`mara....while settling down in her chair...

<`lucius> I belive that in order for a pair to work together, they must have an 'unspoken' communication.

<kashina-> i think that a lot depends on what a slave/sub sees her/himself as capable of and the right Dom/me to push those limits beyond what was thought possible

<Leather`n`Lace> hmmm...very interesting topic...:)

<`lucius> both Subs and Doms must be receptive to it.

<BLisS100> ouch lucius that statement makes me nervous

<kashina-> unspoken.....talk is imperative.....misconception create havok

<BLisS100> alot of relationship trouble comes when either partner expects mind reading to go on

<BLisS100> brb

<Leather`n`Lace> open communication is definitely a must....

<Nathan_Brazil> hello

<Leather`n`Lace> and complete honesty....

<`lucius> hmm, not mind reading exactly...but if a scene involves gagging...it's needed.

<Leather`n`Lace> Nathan...good evening...so nice to see you :)

<Nathan_Brazil> ;)

<ti`mara> hello Nathan Sir

<MasterZarith> I think lucious means it more on a basic level. Like an understanding.

<Nathan_Brazil> Leather`n`Lace is my fantasy

<kashina-> honesty can only occur if both are willing to accept what views and expectations they see in the future

<`lucius> It's a pain in the ass to have to constantly safe word when someone can't read your body launguage

* BernieRoehl is joining in on this conversation a bit late...

<Leather`n`Lace> good point, `lucius :)

<Nathan_Brazil> hi ti`mara

<Leather`n`Lace> L OL Nathan...hush now :)

<MasterZarith> its like chemistry.

* meow` is looking for a r/l relationship with a Dom/me and so proximity is rather an obvious characteristic she is looking for

<katiias> people can move, meow

* katiias smiles

<Nathan_Brazil> i just need a job waiting

<kashina-> yes MasterZarith...i agree....it has to be present....that 'chemistry'

* katiias chuckles at Nathan..

<GentleMaster> got to go..be back at 10PM

<kashina-> lucius.....that is what the safe word is for..that particular situation

<ti`mara> hello Actonivus Sir

<BernieRoehl> Proximity is important, and so is communication, and chemistry. But I'm curious... (for the subs here) what personal qualities you find attractive in a Dom.

* `lucius nods at kashina-

* Leather`n`Lace would love to hear a safe word come from one neatly bound and gagged...it just doesn't happen.....one must "know" their submissive...and be able to read their expressions.....

<MasterZarith> if gagged, the Dom must have a better understanding of that submissive.

<MasterZarith> agreed LnL

<Leather`n`Lace> exactly, Zarith

<`lucius> but it's distracting to have to constantly use it...it spoils the 'suspension of reality'

<lyxanna> there are ways to safe word when wearing a gag

<lyxanna> holding a ball and letting it go

<`lucius> a triple grunt

<lyxanna> moving a foot in a discussed manner

<Wolfe^en> I think we're talking about cmmunication

<kashina-> lucius....i suspect that if you do not have a 'bond' with the one you are with.....you WOULD have to use it more often than not

<MasterZarith> i think that u are using your safe word all the time, the Dom is pushing to hard, too fast

<Leather`n`Lace> I do not gag...yet I'm not one to use safe words either.....body language...and the sub's ability to use body language to show discomfort is what I prefer....

<lyxanna> lol...i thought that was part of the point LnL

<`lucius> Yes, I've played with a few people recently kashina-, some were better than others.

<PanheadAL> for the body language you have to know your sub verry well

<Leather`n`Lace> partially, lyxanna...yes.....

<MasterZarith> yes LnL, but there must be more than one way to know when the submissive is in trubl, or had too much,

<kashina-> i want to see compassion.....a natural Dominance that does not have to be pushed for but is just present....a good willingness to communicate...respect for my place at His feet...His willingness to acknowledge that my presence is a willing one....an offerance....

<kashina-> and yes Al.....as i have heard you state often.....a gift

* kashina- smiles at Al

<`lucius> the times that I have switched, it's obvious to me when I'm pushing too hard...but I guess not everyone is in tune like that.

<Leather`n`Lace> I believe that taking the time to know a submissive...discussing limits....rather than just "playing" randomly....

* PanheadAL smiles at kashina-

<MistressAstra> thinks any partner should be emotionally stable,

<Leather`n`Lace> kashina-...that is D/s in its truest form....if it is not recognized as an offerance....a gift....but rather taken.....it is abuse....

<jalyn> to answer Bernie's question, i would prefer a Dom to be able to readily adapt to the role of my mentor, someone i could be completely honest with have no fear of communicating my thoughts, one who would help me to explore my limits and know how and when to push them

* `Hardest knows this is going to be opening a whole new kettle of fish...........but what is this "gift" crap

* meow` likes MistressAstra's comment about emotional stability

<jalyn> for someone as new as myself, this is a difficult question to answer, for i dont have the experiences to draw from

<PanheadAL> hey swann{ME}

<kashina-> gift 'crap"???

<swann{ME}> hi hi Al *HUGS*

<Leather`n`Lace> `Hardest....surely you are joking....

<MasterZarith> hi swann :)

<ti`mara> He has to be

<`lucius> natural ability Hardest?

<swann{ME}> hi hi MasterZarith *smile* hope you are well

<MasterZarith> that i am my dear :)

<Wolfe^en> *smiles* at Hardest

* alora{AF} doubts there are many people in the world who are truly emotionally stable...cuz life is mostly shitty

<BLisS100> i think i agree with hardest

<`Hardest> no I'm not joking........

<Leather`n`Lace> `Hardest...perhaps you'd like to explain your feelings on what you seek in a submissive....

* lyxanna smiles at Hardest

<kashina-> Hardest.....without a sub.......a Dom is not a Dom.....the gift of submission by one that thinks you worthy enough of their company makes you Dom....not just Dominant

<lyxanna> my submission is not a gift

<kashina-> tru says.....trust and understanding is everything

<Wolfe^en> we agree with Hardest

<lyxanna> my submission is a part of me

<kashina-> ok lyx.......

<`Hardest> if 2 ppl are both getting something out of a relationship then how can it be called a gift...why is what the dom brings any less then the sub

<kashina-> do you give that out readily....to anyone in your company??

<ti`mara> wow

<BLisS100> agreed hardest

<BLisS100> its more of a transaction

<Wolfe^en> there is no difference

<MistressAstra> looks at alora, and smiles, and think emotional stability should come from inside? how can you give to someone if you cannot take care of yourself?

* BernieRoehl notes that the "gift" discussion was a few weeks ago. :-)

<lyxanna> probubly more than i give my trust kashina

<Wolfe^en> lol BR

<lyxanna> and i don't give it....it just is

* BernieRoehl smiles

<kashina-> thanks Bernie **wink**

<Wolfe^en> ok

<`Hardest> like I said before...a sub who knows there are two in the relationship.....not someone who lets on she has some terrible burden to shoulder

* lyxanna gets quiet again

<Leather`n`Lace> I disagree...completely.....yes, it is an exchange of power......but....a Dominant is empowered by their submissive....and vice versa.....and it is a gift..as submission must be given freely....not taken....

<Wolfe^en> who in here is emotionally balanced?

<lyxanna> depends on the day Wolfe

<`Hardest> we weren't before but now I got a peice of paper saying I'm all better.

<MasterZarith> there both gifts, they give there submission, we give our direction and attention.

<swann{ME}> by who's definition Wolfe Sir?

<kashina-> Wolf.....depends on how you percieve 'emotionally balanced'

<MistressAstra> hopes she is on most levels...Wolf'en

<Wolfe^en> exactly

<Leather`n`Lace> yes, Zarith...hence the exchange of power...

<BLisS100> is emotionally well balanced

* lyxanna snickers

<kashina-> but what "qualities" is it that you NEED to see??

<`Hardest> and if a sub falls in the forrest is she really a sub if there is no dom there to hear her?

<Wolfe^en> so to expect someone to BE emotionally balanced may be up for interpretation

* meow` couldn't even begin to think about submitting to someone who wasn't at least her intellectual equal ... does that sound awful?

* katiias chuckles...forest..ya...rite...

* lyxanna snickers

<ti`mara> in regards to Bernie's question for me i am looking for a Dom/me who is patient and understanding trusting, but firm someone who can communitcate listening is just as important as talking

<BernieRoehl> To me, a submissive has to have a certain amount of self-respect. A really wimpy submissive is somehow... unsatisfying.

<kashina-> meow....i think that is a necessity

* Leather`n`Lace smiles to ti`mara....very nice :)

<MasterZarith> very much so Bernie...

<MasterZarith> a strong character is a must

* ti`mara looks up at Leather n Lace smiling

<Wolfe^en> how about same interests?

<Leather`n`Lace> Bernie....I feel that being a submissive takes a very strong character......not one who is a door mat...

<Nathan_Brazil> bye

<swann{ME}> to me a Dom must have some self-respect and a wimpy, grovelly Dom is umm....er......pathetic

<lyxanna> how about good conversation

<MistressAstra> agrees with Bernie on needy subs, often the submissive needs something even you cannot give her/him

<lyxanna> same musical taste would be nice

<BernieRoehl> For me, it depends on the nature of the relationship Wolfe^en.

<Wolfe^en> understands that variety is important also

* BernieRoehl smiles at swann

<kashina-> how bout an 'accomodating Dom"......that turns me MAJOR off

<BernieRoehl> Yes, agreed Astra.

<Wolfe^en> within s/m

<`Hardest> what do u mean accomodating kash.....

<BernieRoehl> If it's simply a play-partner relationship, it may not matter much whether you share the same tastes in music, movies, etc.

<`Hardest> can't hold open the door...can't pay the bill....can't see that u may just be too tired...what?

<BernieRoehl> In a serious, long-term relationship, those things are more important.

<Wolfe^en> strictly referring to s/m here

<MistressAstra> wonders if self confidence isnt a major factor in chosing a Dom/me or sub?

<Wolfe^en> although our music tastes "have" expanded *smile*

<ti`mara> Bernie what parts are we talking about though long term or play

<kashina-> Hardest....i am queen of the "loophole" ......... if i can find it....and use it to my advantage i will....if i am not corrected i can be accomodated beyond believe

<kashina-> a strong willed and sharp individual is needed (in my case) or else i loose interest

* `Hardest remebers that old saying about giving someone enuff rope to hang themselves

* Leather`n`Lace nods to Astra....very important...

<alora{AF}> bye

<kashina-> ok.....so what do the Dom's in the room find an important trait to see in a sub??

<BernieRoehl> Well, if I'm simply doing a casual scene with someone at a play party or fet night, it doesn't matter all that much if the person likes the same films I do. :-)

<ti`mara> i think it is very important in choosing either Astra Ma'am

<`Hardest> tits...oops did that already

<BernieRoehl> Intelligence, self-sufficiency.

<Wolfe^en> someone who IS open to explore

<`Hardest> how 'bout subbie know thyself

<kashina-> Hardest...tits are on cattle thanks.....i think there is a LOT more to a sub than just that

<MistressAstra> self confidence, is the most important, that is the hardest thing anyone Dom/me or sub could even fantom of help building up

* katiias wonders..with the incredible lack of sensitivity in the room....how a submissive recovered from breast cancer surgery wud feel....

* lil^bear^ giggles..sorry cant do this tonight not in the right frame of mind lol

<BernieRoehl> A willingness to explore. A genuine desire to give pleasure and receive pain, and to surrender control.

* Leather`n`Lace smiles at katiias.....you will get that in every room, dear....unfortunately...

* katiias sighs...

<Wolfe^en> generalizing there katiias

<architect_> hi

* _mmmm_ bows to all

<katiias> yes i was...

<kashina-> the surrendering of control...an interesting discussion all on it's own Bernie Sir :)

<katiias> but it was a predominant trait mentioned...

* _mmmm_ bows before MistressAstra

<Leather`n`Lace> a submissive's mind....is far more important than her "packaging", in my opinion, katiias :)

<BernieRoehl> Yes, that it is kashina. :-)

* kashina- winks at Bernie and smiles

<MistressAstra> agreed Leather n KLace

* `abi wonders if it's possible to completely dismiss physical attraction

<katiias> thankyou Ma'am...

<swann{ME}> *thinking of a discussion we had the other day*

<ti`mara> well that is nice to know Leather n Lace Ma'am wish others thought like that

<Leather`n`Lace> for some `abi...it is....

<BernieRoehl> No, abi, I think physical attraction does enter into it.

<Leather`n`Lace> I have personally met some very gorgeous women......who end up very ugly the moment they open their mouths....

* jalyn agrees

<katiias> lol

* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with LnL

<katiias> ohmy

* ti`mara smiles at Leather n Lace

<jalyn> on both counts

* swann{ME} is very ugly but has a great personality .....so i heard when described to blind dates

<`abi> I'm a little skeptical about that Leather`n`Lace....physical attractiveness may differ from person to person, but if I don't find someone physically attractive to me...then their mind is unlikely to be enough

* Leather`n`Lace smiles at katiias....and at ti`mara :)

<kashina-> i agree with you Leather`n`Lace

<architect_> same here, abi

<lyxanna> agree abi

* `Hardest says ya what abi says

<Leather`n`Lace> and you are certainly entitled to that train of thought, `abi.....

<MasterZarith> good point abi

* BernieRoehl agrees with abi

* katiias makes note to keep mouth shut...

<Leather`n`Lace> too many put all of their thoughts on physical appearance...and lose sight of the person inside....

<architect_> it's not about putting _all of their thoughts_...

<`Hardest> and she's a subbie too....kinda like sheila copps voting pc

<architect_> it has a significance

<`abi> equally so Leather`n`Lace....putting all your eggs in the mental basket is also likely to be unsatisfying

<MasterZarith> if its important to you to have that physical attraction, then so be it, just be yourself.

<BernieRoehl> Personally, I need both. There has to be some physical attraction to my partner, but there has to be lots more beyond that or I lose interest very quickly.

<ti`mara> that would be fine if we all looked like barbie and ken

<`lucius> still, physical attractiveness is important.

<`lucius> but we are all attracted to different types

<`Hardest> tis in the eye of the beholder

<`abi> looking like Barbie isn't what physical attractiveness is about timara

<kashina-> i agree Bernie Sir...personal attraction can start things

<Leather`n`Lace> `abi.....I am giving my personal opinion here...and that is.....physical appearance is secondary to the person within......

* katiias considers herself very lucky to be married to Master...cuz nobody attracted to the short round type.. *s*

<Leather`n`Lace> yes, kashina-...it can....and it can be lost very quickly if the person lacks substance also

* kashina- doesn't WANT to look like Barbie thanks.....those hips could NEVER fit into jeans in the 'real' world

<BernieRoehl> Does anyone really find Barbie attractive? Or Ken, for that matter?

<kashina-> a beginning Leather`n`Lace......so on from there....

<lyxanna> ken?

<BLisS100> maybe as a sex toy BR

<lyxanna> no genitalia?

* BernieRoehl laughs

<lyxanna> hmmmm

<BLisS100> roll a condom on that sucker and see how he goes

<kashina-> <tru> what if a sub does not feel attractive......?

<`abi> of course you giving your opinion Leather`n`Lace...as we all are....in my case, it's a total package that I find attractive

<Leather`n`Lace> building a relationship based on appearance first....is limiting those from finding true beauty....

<ti`mara> don't know Bernie sometimes i really think so

<Leather`n`Lace> that is obvious abi

* `Hardest has been around enuff to know that he would starve if he had to survive on this face

<BLisS100> kashina...i find people in general who dont like them selves, are very difficult to like

<MistressAstra> LOL,Hardest

<kashina-> building a relationship......before that however....there are traits that you MUST find that you NEED the other to have......anyone have a list?

<BernieRoehl> Personally, I don't like the "Barbie" look. I prefer people who look more... (searching for a word...) real.

<Leather`n`Lace> yes, katiias....honesty...sense of humour....sense of self-worth...to name a few :)

<katiias> loni anderson?

<katiias> pamela anderson?

<`abi> and it's equally important to know that my partner finds me physically attractive as well as appreciating what's inside my head....hearing "I love you for your mind" just doesn't turn me on.

* BernieRoehl agrees with Bliss on that point.

<`Hardest> kiss of death that is

<MasterZarith> hello kitty

<Leather`n`Lace> good point, BLisS100

<kitty23> hi MasterZarith Sir:)

<kashina-> appearance......a skin deep quality.....translucent at best.....easily enhanced or diminished by the REAL person underlying that God-given surface

* katiias feels like a fat ugly duckling in a room of gorgeous swans....

<ti`mara> ok what if a person was down to earth, fun, nice, intellagent, open minded and just an all around great person but she/he was not gorgeous and on the first meeting you didn't even get to know them how would you know what kind of a person they are

<BernieRoehl> Everyone goes through periods of low self-esteem... but the ability to pull out of them before they get dragged down by them is essential.

* BLisS100 high fives BR on that one

<jalyn> very true Bernie

<Leather`n`Lace> katiias...perhaps that is because you have been made to feel that way by others....you are a very sweet, kind, loving girl....with much to give :)

<architect_> katiias, I think you have a problem. you should try and talk to someone about your feeling of lesserness

* `Hardest thinks it's a good thing kat can't see the rest of the room...might dissuade u from the thought

<katiias> thank you for that insight architect

<BernieRoehl> I think the internet is a wonderful way to get to know people without the pre-judgements that come with physical appearance.

<kashina-> katiias.....we are all swanns.....to One **soft smile**

<MasterZarith> were making it sound like wanting a attractive partner is a bad thing.

* Leather`n`Lace looks architect_.....

<architect_> I don't know if that was sarcasm, katiias. Mine wasn't

<swann{ME}> wow everybody is me!!!!!!!!!!!!! YIPPEE

<swann{ME}> hahahahahah

* BernieRoehl agrees 100% with kashina

<BLisS100> is the sexiest fat chick she knows

<`lucius> I don't think it's a bad thing MasterZarith.

<katiias> blissie is cutey

<MasterZarith> good

<MistressAstra> but Bernie we also prejudge thinner people, as well as heavy people

* meow` elbows BLisS100 ... hey, that's MY title!

<`abi> not talking about gorgeous timara...I'm talking about "attractive"...it's an elusive quality, and it doesn't equate to tall, thin, dark or anything else specific...it's the look in an eye, or the way a hand moves, or a really comfy looking pair of arms

<`lucius> But attractive is a subjective term

<katiias> yes it was

<Leather`n`Lace> architect_...I'm curious as to why you would even assume that about katiias...do you know her?

* jalyn is the second sexiest fat chick

<ti`mara> ture abi

<MasterZarith> I like attractive submissives,and won't make excuses for wanting to find a partner who is attractive and gets my juices pumping

* BLisS100 smiles at jalyn

<BernieRoehl> I like that distinction, abi. Attraction doesn't necessarily have much to do with looks.

* `Hardest was voted most likely to have a bastard rat named after him in hi-school

* `lucius has worked pretty hard on his appearance since his divorce

<MasterZarith> to me thats an important part of the pie

<architect_> that was my reaction to what she said, Leather`n`Lace

<Leather`n`Lace> exactly `abi....not necessarily the stereotypical "model material" look....

* BLisS100 finds very skinny men and women about as attractive as most people find my body type,i cant help it, just my "chemistry" or hard wiring i think

<lyxanna> and you shouldn't have to MZ....and that is your perogative

<`abi> but a physical attraction none the less

<kashina-> Bernie i agree.....the internet is a wonderful way to 'see' a person from the inside out :)

* swann{ME} remembers dating a good looking guy ......then he removed his pants...he had the ugliest penis i ever saw....

<swann{ME}> his brains, his looks his personality went out the window

<Leather`n`Lace> a very direct statement, architect_...especially since you don't know katiias....

<swann{ME}> and i went out the door

<Wolfe^en> what does an attractive penis look like?

<`lucius> lol swann

<architect_> I'm sorry for being too direct

<lyxanna> yeah...i wanna know too

* jalyn has never seen an ugly one before

<`abi> touchable Wolfe^en

<swann{ME}> not hooked with a pointy end and a mole

<MistressAstra> likes her penises not bent :P

* `lucius has seen a few scary ones

<Wolfe^en> LOL

<BLisS100> has seen quite a few and i know attractive penis whe i see one!

* Leather`n`Lace smiles at architect_....then at katiias :)

<BLisS100> thick is good

<kashina-> they all look the same in the dark swann **giggle**

<Leather`n`Lace> L OL Astra :)

<BLisS100> short is bad

<`lucius> good luck finding one that is perfectly straight MistressAstra

<katiias> not bent?

<BLisS100> they dont all FEEL the same

* lyxanna thinks of going into penial plastic sergury....

<kashina-> i think we are talking about personal traits here.......preferences

* `Hardest was going to send his to the comedy club...seems to cause a lot of laughter

<BLisS100> my ex's is perfectly straight and thick and long enuf, anyone want his number can pm me

<MistressAstra> yes kaattis i hate a guy whos dick looks like hes been screwing around corners :P

* MasterZarith can't help but chuckle on the subject haS turned into whats an attractive penis

<katiias> lol

<MasterZarith> hehe

* jalyn likes thick

* Leather`n`Lace has a call to make...most interesting conversation tonight......be well, A/all :)

* BernieRoehl notices that we're slowly drifting off-topic :-)

* `lucius starts laughing

<lyxanna> drifting?

<katiias> to all the Doms.... how wud you feel...if the attractive sub you're playin with...takes ONE look at yer penis..and says..THAT IS THE UGLIEST PENIS I HAVE EVER SEEN

* jalyn grins

<BLisS100> is it BR? me thinks not

* kashina- states again."What Qualities are Attractive in a Dom or sub?"

<MasterZarith> I'd laff

<kashina-> anyone have a list of 'desired traits'?

<Wolfe^en> well, kat...

<MistressAstra> what is a attracive penis quality in a Dom/me or sub...lOL

<swann{ME}> intelligence

* `Hardest wonders..with the incredible lack of sensitivity in the room....how a submissive recovered from penis cancer surgery wud feel....

<Wolfe^en> I would probably turn it into a humiliation scene & have her worship it

<swann{ME}> kindness

<BLisS100> well lets face it, subs have to do all kinds of things with that dom's penis, it better look yimmy or i aint goin near it

* katiias shrugs...

<`Hardest> or dom

<architect_> what is attractive between to people is that each feel equal and feel they have their freedom and privacy

<MasterZarith> lol at Hardest!! :)

<BLisS100> yummy

* brandy^` chuckles...

<Wolfe^en> lol Hardest

<swann{ME}> Dominant

<swann{ME}> Self-Confident

<swann{ME}> respectful

<BLisS100> how does a sub feel freedom in a d/s relationship architect?

* `lucius remains silent

<MistressAstra> hopes she doesnt ever see a doms penis :(

<swann{ME}> honest

<swann{ME}> trustworthy

<swann{ME}> self actualized

<BLisS100> hmmm...thinks about the trustworthy and honest part and thinks about maried doms cheating on their wives

<Wolfe^en> wonder where TN is tonight

<katiias> and married subs cheating on their Dom/mes?

<Wolfe^en> good point bliss

<architect_> and what about married dommes?

<Wolfe^en> on the next Springer

<BernieRoehl> Good list, swann. I'd have a very similar list for subs (except for the first item, of course!)

<ti`mara> a single Dom/mme would be nice

<swann{ME}> *smile*

<swann{ME}> thank you BR Sir

<swann{ME}> imaginative

<MasterZarith> were out there ti`mara :)

* `lucius did the marrige thing...wasn't good for this one.

<swann{ME}> loving

<MistressAstra> wonders if the dom/mes or subs are cheating if the wives/signifigant other knows about it and agrees?

<swann{ME}> good sense of humor

<kashina-> another topic i think architect and bliss

<jalyn> committed

<ti`mara> nice to know Master Zarith Sir

<architect_> sure

* BernieRoehl sits back and simply takes note of swann's unfolding list, nodding in agreement.

<BLisS100> ok if u say so kashina

<Wolfe^en> cheat ing is doing it behind their backs

<`Hardest> wellmaybe cheating/not cheating is an attribute?

<swann{ME}> fair

<swann{ME}> human

<kashina-> i like that list swann :))

<`lucius> oh...that puts me out swann :(

* BLisS100 jump hugs the donkey boy

<lyxanna> they have to be human?

<swann{ME}> LOL lucius

<Wolfe^en> en says "a Dom who accepts being questioned" is a good quality

* `lucius smiles

<kashina-> the only thing that matters is INSIDE the relationship......if the honesty and trust are there

<MasterZarith> questions are communication.

<BernieRoehl> I agree, en, but I find if a sub is *constantly* questioning my decisions then there's an underlying problem.

<MistressAstra> nice attribute Wolfe"en

<`Hardest> how 'bout a dom who can call a spade a spade?

<architect_> did someone mention open-minded and tolerant?

<BLisS100> *cough* BR

<katiias> not lately, architect

<swann{ME}> architect i guess that i figured that anybody in the lifestyle is open minded but i know that is a sweeping statement

<Wolfe^en> en likes to know why

* BernieRoehl says (in an aside to Bliss) that the problem could lie either with the sub or the Dom, or between them

<Wolfe^en> even if it is "Because I said so"

<architect_> affectionate

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> Integrity... as a Dom... as a person ... with Class and Style ... built on trust and knowledge... polite and curteous, (rudeness is having no class) ... and most of all... a complete Human,,, a Dom cannot have tons of baggage (psychologically that is)...

* BLisS100 smiles ...aside back atcha...what if the sub likes the struggle?

<BLisS100> well that sub better not have tons of baggage either

<swann{ME}> bliss then she needs to find a Dom that likes to struggle with him/her

<jalyn> baggage is not good for a dom or sub

<lyxanna> baggage?...who said anything about moving in????

<katiias> everyone has baggage

<MistressAstra> or have lost a few bags at the airport either bliss :P

<architect_> unselfish

<swann{ME}> sensual

<kashina-> baggage can be lessened.....it's whether the Dom wants to deal with it or not....THEIR choice

<BLisS100> agreed swann but BR made it sound like any good sub wouldnt keepo challenging

<swann{ME}> hmmm unselfish ...not sure of that one architect

<BLisS100> i disagreee

<Wolfe^en> people with lots of baggage have usually done a lot of travelling/living...can be a good thing

<katiias> baggage is in essence...what makes us us

* BernieRoehl smiles at Bliss and notes that some Doms enjoy a good struggle too... but not all of Us do

<architect_> empathical

<BLisS100> baggage is what makes us us and keeps us from becoming fully realized kat

* lyxanna looks at bliss...but what happens after the fighting is all done?...what then?

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> baggage in a Dom is dangerous

<katiias> not if you understand the baggage... bliss...

<katiias> and you understand yourself therefore...

<BLisS100> then its just history katiias

<`Hardest> er wouldn't baggage be the accumulated life of one's existance

<Wolfe^en> you have a smoke lyx

<katiias> yes Hardest

<katiias> thats it

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> If you understand your baggage, then is it really baggage?

<BLisS100> lyx, then its the refractory period, wait till estrus happens again and the fight begins all over again

* meow` looks at lyxanna ... why does the struggle have to end? isn't that just life? to struggle and keep breathing

<Wolfe^en> consider baggage a gift

<architect_> life is a struggle? that is one way of looking at it

<`Hardest> why does baggage have a bad name......

<BLisS100> baggage=what drags u done

<BLisS100> down

<BLisS100> if it isnt dragging u down its called life experience

<swann{ME}> it could conceivably strenthen you

* MasterZarith doesn't want to consider it a struggle.

* BernieRoehl doesn't think life is a struggle, nor that it should it be

<kashina-> baggage.....and the ability to deal with it.....says a lot for that person

<`Hardest> seems anyone who has ever learned a lessson would have baggage

<architect_> I'm going to be here only a tiny tiny fraction of the whole time of existence, I'm planning on making the most of it

<BernieRoehl> Life should be a joy.

<Wolfe^en> people with lots of baggage have usually done a lot of travelling/living...can be a good thing

<BLisS100> gets all horny at the thought of struggle

<kashina-> i do not think i know ANYONE who does not carry any

<katiias> bliss...

<katiias> admit it

<katiias> you just simply

<BLisS100> ya wolfe/en we know LOL

<katiias> ARE horny

<BLisS100> LOL well thats a given

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> point taken... let me rephrase that then

<ti`mara> hello Renaissance Man Sir

* `abi got one of those luggage totes with wheels for her baggage

<RenaissanceMan> 'evening A/all. *s*

<architect_> lol

<BLisS100> but i have my briewf moment when i'm satisfied

<katiias> lol

<MasterZarith> easier to carry eh abi :)

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> A good Dom knows how to handle baggage (specially his own)

* katiias buried hers in the backyard

<BLisS100> ouch wolf/ottawa, i get nervous with shit like that

<BernieRoehl> There are times when I struggle with work, and with other aspects of my life. At the end of the day, the last thing I'm looking for is yet another struggle.

<kashina-> i agree with you there The_Wolf_Ottawa :))

<swann{ME}> *nodding* @ The_Wolf_Ottawa

<`Hardest> oh the ex husbands club kat?

<`lucius> I emptied my baggage so I could keep my sex toys in there.

<BLisS100> just my fetish i guess BR

* BLisS100 whispers to Bernie...come to the dark side....

<BLisS100> lol

* MasterZarith likes lucious's logic

<BernieRoehl> And I respect it, Bliss. It's just not mine. :-)

* meow` grins .......

<katiias> not exactly Hardest...

* BLisS100 shakes BR's hand

<katiias> he's still alive

<katiias> regrettably

* BernieRoehl whispers to Bliss... I like it in the light

<BLisS100> lol

<`Hardest> lololol

* BernieRoehl shakes Bliss' hand

<kashina-> depends on the baggage i guess.....a lot does not affect certain aspects of the relationship between Dom/me and sub to a point where it should be a problem

<katiias> of course

<katiias> for all i know

<`Hardest> poor kat..I'm sure there is a truck with his name on it

<katiias> he's turned Dom and is on here

<katiias> not really

<katiias> let go of most of that baggage

* _mmmm_ wonders how You are doing tonight MistressAstra :)

* BLisS100 day dreams about matadors

* katiias shrugs

<BLisS100> is it getting hot in here?

<Actonivus> Ole'

* BLisS100 smile

<`Hardest> toro toro

<`Hardest> si senoritta

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> please no food puns

* lyxanna digs the hole to bury the dead bull in after the fight is over

* kashina- waves a red cape infront of bliss and smiles wickedly

<architect_> see you later

<BLisS100> they dont bury the bull lyx, they butcher it and sell the bloody meat for a small fortune

<BLisS100> its considered eating "courage"

<katiias> ewwwwwwwwwww

<swann{ME}> is the discussion over now?

<katiias> disgusting

<katiias> seems like it swann

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> who's curage?

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> courage?

<swann{ME}> oh ..

<swann{ME}> okay

<Wolfe^en> en says' "What about someone who knows how to use a flogger or cane etc"

<BLisS100> the bull symbolizes strength, virility and courage

<swann{ME}> that came under imaginative Sir

<`lucius> or a crop.

* `lucius rubs his marks

* lyxanna deffinitly wants someone that is able to wield the tools properly

<`Hardest> or a plastic paint stir from crappy tire

<katiias> need to head to bed folks

<katiias> nite

<Wolfe^en> thought imaginative was more a mind thing

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> A good sub... type that does or does not listen? The bratty sub, does it/should it really be?

<swann{ME}> it's both Sir ..

<MasterZarith> trool? toys to me.

<MasterZarith> tool

<swann{ME}> in my opinion

<`Hardest> if a sub doesn't listen and rebels all the time is she really a sub?

<Actonivus> abi has something for you Bernie

<lyxanna> and is the Dom/me really doing their job?

<BLisS100> good question hardest, what do YOU think?

<BLisS100> would like a dom/me who is employed, intelligent and emotionally mature

<`Hardest> moi says no.....she's playiong a different "game"

<kashina-> perhaps the problem with that Hardest....is that the Dom does not really have control over her

* meow` learned a lot listening tonight ... will put away her "trolling sub" sign

<swann{ME}> maybe she just has not found the fire that can stir her feelings of submission to their peek..

<jalyn> gotta go....great discussion

<Actonivus> are you talking about me again Bliss....lol

<BernieRoehl> Yes, she just msg'd me Actonivus (and thanks!)

<`Hardest> might all be wrapped up in d/s but she ain't really a sub

<Wolfe^en> try to set realistic goals bliss

<brandy^`> good night E/everyone

<BLisS100> maybe challenging IS HER FIRE swann

* jalyn waves goodnight

<BLisS100> piss off wolf/en LOL

<Wolfe^en> *smile*

<`Hardest> and what's wrong with that

<ThunderNuts> so

<BLisS100> oh gawd not thundernuts again

* lyxanna would like someone that is employed, has a car, understands that they are not the end-all-or -bee-all of her life, and understands that life is not an obsticle, but just is

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> when a sub refuses to a safeword, but constantly bucks, even at the most intense... but you know you passed your subs limits ... to the point they walk away... and still refuse a safe word... What is a good Dom to do?

<lyxanna> let them go on their way and not be with them again???

<ThunderNuts> honesty, communicative, skilled, imaginative, & has a real mean streak when it counts

<`Hardest> enjoy?

<ThunderNuts> Dom traits

<BLisS100> oh i like en

<swann{ME}> i have no safeword The_Wolf_Ottawa ...but i would not be able to use one if i did

<BLisS100> *cough*

<lyxanna> past those traits.....honesty

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> why is that swann?

<ThunderNuts> when en stops breathing I let up

<BLisS100> lol

<BLisS100> u funny nuts

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> Trust facture is that hi? :)

<swann{ME}> because i can't talk when i am that far gone ...and i am fortunate that Master reads me as well as he does

<swann{ME}> and i trust him 100000%

<BLisS100> ok...someone who is so damn near perfect he can be trusted 100%

<swann{ME}> i don't even know i need help when i do ....

<ti`mara> some people are so lucky swann wish i could say the same

<swann{ME}> i never said he was damn near perfect ..

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> But he knows your limits... again, communication is The KeY....

<swann{ME}> i did say that we do have that communication that works for us

<lyxanna> ummm...so is time

<swann{ME}> and i cannot speak or think

* BLisS100 hugs swann...i'm being fecitious

<lyxanna> you don't know someone that well without time

<swann{ME}> at those times i would need a safeword so i am fortunate

<ThunderNuts> I put a ring gag on en & we discuss limits for the evening

<swann{ME}> i've been with Master 3 years

<`Hardest> g'nite folks

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> The hardest part of teaching a new Dom is not to expect to play right away with a new sub... need to feel people out, get to know them... very hard to do at times with excited Doms

<ThunderNuts> perhaps new Doms should masturbate before play

<kashina-> thank you to everyone who participated in tonights discussion....and i hope we all see you here again next week for the next

<swann{ME}> perhaps that is because so many equate BDSM with sex

* kashina- issues a group hug!!!!!!

<BLisS100> i know i do

* swann{ME} runs to my dear friend kashina and gives kashina squishy sqeezy hugggggggggggggsssssssss

<MasterZarith> wb kitty

<ti`mara> wb kitty

<Actonivus> kisses angel

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> thank you for hosting it... was fun...

<ThunderNuts> bdsm is sex for some of usr

<BernieRoehl> Thanks for moderating, kashina!

<BLisS100> from what wolfe and en keep saying about that ring gag me thinks i need to get one of my own

* BernieRoehl applauds

<`abi> oh sure..now angel shows up!...where were you when we were discussing nice tits???

<kashina-> thanks for having me Bernie!!! :)

<swann{ME}> yes and for some of us it's about way more Sir

<ThunderNuts> swann....

<ThunderNuts> nevermind

<angel[A]> and uh hello abi

<BernieRoehl> It was a pleasure having you, kash! :-)

<swann{ME}> what Sir?

<swann{ME}> please finish..

<ti`mara> thanks kashina great job

<angel[A]> I was with all of you.....:) I read over his shoulder :)

* kashina- ducks......army helicopters!!

<kashina-> ooooooooops sorry......it's the washing machine

* kashina- giggles

<BernieRoehl> Well, I've got to head offline...

<Wolfe^en> s/m is the greatest form of foreplay there is

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> TheWolfe, If I may interject, this is a diiscussion, people here have all forms of opinions

<ti`mara> bye Bernie Sir

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> None are necessarily the same as the next

<MasterZarith> bye Bernie

<The_Wolf_Ottawa> All opinions are valid (to a point)

<Wolfe^en> what are you referring to TWO?

<BernieRoehl> G'night, all!

<swann{ME}> and to me it's the greatest form of showing somebody you love them with all that you are and more

<kashina-> night Bernie.....dream well :)) XXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!

<`abi> g'nite Bernie

<Wolfe^en> take care BR

<BernieRoehl> Thanks, kash -- you too!

Session Close: Sun Jul 11 22:15:26 1999