July 11, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Playpartners, Submissives and Slaves -- How are they Different?". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Omy> Good eveening folks
<MBA{s}_and_sam{MM}> Hi abi
<Omy> I believe we should define each one before we start discussing the differences
<MasterGuny> think you can? LOL
<MasterGuny> that could take the hour on its own
<Omy> Well a playpartner is basically a bottom...someone there to feel the sensations. If there is any power exchange then it is for a defined period of time.
<Shoshin> the back & forth attempt to define the differences between submissives and slaves has been going on for years
<Omy> I agree Shoshin and its kindy funny to me for the difference is really quite simple
<Omy> +In my mind the difference comes down to two things...the level of power exchange and the ownership of limits
<Shoshin> Omy, I agree with you, my roommate bottoms to me in public, but in no way, shape or form is he my submissive
<MasterGuny> there is a noticable difference between a bottom and a sub/slave IMO but little between the sub and slave...where I was brought in from the only difference was the collar
<Omy> so a slave wears a collar and a sub doesn't?
<LucyKW> i think there is a big difference between a sub and slave
<Shoshin> my understanding is a difference in negotiation, a submissive can continually negotiate and renegotiate with the Dominant, whereas a slave and Dominant do negotiation prior to the commitment to consentual slavery
<MasterGuny> yes when she becomes property she becomes that persons slave
<LucyKW> thanks for saving me typing that out shoshin
<Shoshin> I was a submissive & wore a collar
<kimochi> can a slave be a slave without a collar on?
<LucyKW> i think so
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> yes kimochi the collar is only a symbol, it's how the one is that makes that one a slave
<`abi> depends on whether you're talking about a physical collar kimochi
<Shoshin> a collar doesn't make either a slave or submissive, it is the agreement between the involved parties that does that
<kimochi> so if that's possible, then what is the difference between an uncollared slave and a submissive
<Omy> I agree Shoshin
<MasterGuny> thats how I was taught long ago now I keep reading on Bondage things like no safe words not limits etc.....that was not part of it when I started..you collared a submisive and she became your slave
<LucyKW> IMO, slavery is mental, not about a collar
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> but can you be a slave if you are not owned?
<kimochi> i don't mean a collar that's put on for decoration
<lindy> it might be a matter of opinion but I always see myself as a sub not a slave......collar or not
<Shoshin> you can be a slave seeking an Owner
<Shoshin> sort of a slave in waiting
<arhiannah> would you be a Master if you didn't own {pb_ps} CP Sir?
<Kilted_One> a free slave??
<MasterGuny> you are either property or you are free if you are free how can you be a slave?
<simplyme> all slaves are free til they are owned
<kimochi> or perhaps unowned slaves are better called submissives
<simplyme> a state of mind before a state of being
<Shoshin> they can have the slave mentality without b eing owned
<simplyme> submissives are different
<MasterGuny> that I agree with kimochi
<MasterGuny> how?
<Kilted_One> submissives that want to be "someone's" slave??
<LucyKW> i don't know about that...i'm mostly a bottom...with some sub leanings but i could never see being someone's slave...i'm not
<LucyKW> THAT submissive
<simplyme> a question of limits and rights
<simplyme> between slaves and subs
<Kilted_One> and comittment??
<simplyme> each can be equally committed
<MasterGuny> in my mind its so clear and easy you are either property or you are not
<Shoshin> yes KO, one can be committed to the need to be enslaved while seeking an appropriate Owner
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> And if one is property, does this make her a submissive or slave?
<kimochi> ok - so what about property - is a table a table whether it's owned or not?
<kimochi> and if so, can't a slave be a slave whether owned or not
<arhiannah> yeup
<kimochi> i.e., their nature stays the same
<MasterGuny> slave..as owned property
<lindy> this is almost you say tomato I say tomato debate
<kimochi> their ownership doesn't
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> agree lindy
<Shoshin> lindy, I agree
<Kilted_One> is a woman a Ms or a Mrs until she is married? Is a Mst a Mr until after he is married
<lindy> lol
<Kilted_One> the lines are almost as fine as the hairs on frogs legs
<Shoshin> I was a Ms married & single
<MasterGuny> it has been so widely debated it becaomes so political it seems every..bottom submissive slave twists it around to suit what they feel about themselves
<kimochi> lol
<kimochi> as does each Master/Mistress/Ma'am/Sir
<`abi> or every Top twists it around to suit his/her image
<simplyme> there will always be a degree of personalization
<LucyKW> that's assuming there is some agreed upon definition...and there isn't
<simplyme> it is not like all are out of the same mode
<simplyme> would you want a stepford slave?
<LucyKW> i'm sure some do
<MasterBaiter> If it's Nicole Kidman...yes.
<Shoshin> Ms was how I defined myself, not how some group or legislative body defined me, I think it is the same for slaves & submissives
<simplyme> lol
<lorraine> could you say, a submissive surrenders themselves more pyshically, and slave surrender more mentally?
<LucyKW> LOL
<kimochi> even the slaves of the past were called slaves whether they had an owner or not
<MasterGuny> and that is unfortunate I think..I wish there where definitions that where adhered to it would certainly stop the debate LOL
<kimochi> then again, when did they ever not have an owner
<LucyKW> that's pretty darn close lorraine
<MasterGuny> when they where free men and women
<lindy> a lot of this is depends on the people involved
<kimochi> but if we didn't have the debate unresolved, what would we ever talk about?
<LucyKW> and what excuse would we use to meet here? ;)
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> I wouldn't think that lorraine, a submissive surrenders but with a voice, a slave surrenders totally with a yearing and a smile to serve her Master.
<Shoshin> a submissive retains some forms of autonomy, a slave, after negotiation gives up all autonomy
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> yearning
<simplyme> yes that is what I said earlier Shoshin
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> I agree Shoshin
<MasterGuny> not my slave..I like a lil spirit and she makes her own desisions when Im not here
<Kilted_One> so the level of comittment is significantly different between one and the other??
<kimochi> so according to that, Shoshin, then a slave cannot be a slave unless she has given up autonomy - which means she'd have to be owned (or unowned and REALLY floundering - lol)
<lindy> MasterGuny is that how she refers to herself as...or was that a title given to her?
<simplyme> no
<Shoshin> it was why during my sub time I would tell people I would make a lousy slave, I don't trust another human being to take total control of my life
<Kilted_One> can you still make decisions but have no rights??
<LucyKW> no, i don't think the level of committment is different...if by committment we mean committment to the other person
<MasterGuny> when I put the collar on her neck it was the understanding that I owned her and she became my property
<LucyKW> if you're making decisions then it sounds like you retain that right
<kimochi> i would think that a slave isn't worth her salt if she doesn't make decisions sometimes
<Shoshin> kimochi, the unowned slave is ready to give up autonomy to the right Dominant
<Kilted_One> if you give up all rights is that not a higher level of committment??
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> can a girl be submissive some times and slave the other times?
<MasterGuny> she was a submissive when I met her
<lindy> then a slave is owned property with a collar to show that?
<LucyKW> i'd say it's a deeper level of abdicating ones self...but not necessarily committment
<Shoshin> LucyKW, I agree
<MasterGuny> I think a submissive is like a Dominant it is who the person is not a role they play..if they so they are Tops/bottoms
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> Thank you KO
<Kilted_One> yw master Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}
<kimochi> it's easier to find distinct differences between a bottom and a sub/slave, than between a sub & a slave
<LucyKW> what is the difference between 'role playing' as a top/bottom and "being" a sub or Dom? someoe enlighten me please?
<MasterGuny> it is easy and visable or at least the ones I have known and been with
<simplyme> role play is saying the scene not necessarily mirroring it if ol or doing it if rl
<Shoshin> Guny if I was to become submissive to someone, I would negotiate how much autonomy I retain, I would serve them within the boundaries of that agreement
<LucyKW> alright...but that doesn't help me understand what those visible differences are
<kimochi> well, in some cases a person who identifies as Dominant (primarily) will play the role of "bottom" , and vice versa (sub & top)
<Kilted_One> bit like an actor playing a real life part LucyKW...the actor is only the "person" for the time they are acting, the person they are acting are that person all their live
<MasterGuny> so does my slave we have a contract that she has filled in with her negotiated limits
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> Yes Brother KO, that is a great analogy
<Kilted_One> ty again master Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}
<MasterGuny> for me a botoom is just that she submits to play but is not a submisive 24/7
<LucyKW> but being sexually submissive is part of who i am...it's not like i choose to be sexually dominant at one time, then submissive the next...i'm just not submissive in every aspect of my life...i'd never get anything accomplished that way LOL
<Shoshin> Guny, very true
<MasterGuny> she may have as you put it some submissive tendencies
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> so then a bottom is a plaything ?
<simplyme> bottom is a play designation
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> in my opinon, yes, submissive sultry she/he is a plaything
<Kilted_One> I dont think there are too many out there that are submissive or dominant in every thing that they do, there are varying degrees in every aspect of what we do
<MasterGuny> no its what they need and get from the community and give to whoever they play with
<MasterGuny> I'd agree with that KO
<Shoshin> I can go to a party, Play my roomie, then turn arund & bottom to a trusted friend, I am not submitting to them, I am b ottoming for a defined time & place
<Kilted_One> ty MasterGuny
<Shoshin> KO< very true
<Kilted_One> ty errr Switch Shoshin <winks>
<Shoshin> *LOL*
<LucyKW> can someone explain what these outwardly visible signs of submission are? I think that's what's tripping me up here
<lindy> in what situation?
<Kilted_One> K, instead of thinking along the lines of what these "stereo types" are meant to be, perhaps consider what they are not and see if there are any differences show up there??
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> so does anyone think that there is more of an emotioanl connection between the Dominant and submissive/slave vs a bottom?
<LucyKW> i'm not sure...MasterGuny said he always knows because it's obvious...i can't say i've had the same experience
<LucyKW> that might work, KO
<Shoshin> Corporal Punishment, very much so
<LucyKW> I don't think it's a given, but it can be so
<Kilted_One> is a submissive collared??
<MasterGuny> I learned the hard way..I tried to make a bottom a slave LOL
<simplyme> yes absolutely Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}
<Kilted_One> as in "owned"
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> agree... there is more emotions between a Dominant and sub/slave
<shareena> i am not collared Kilted_One. So no. imo they don't have to ber collared
<MasterGuny> not the way I define it but today most do
<kimochi> a slave can be a bottom (or a top), but not necessarily the other way around
<MasterBaiter> Corporal_punishment: depends on the people. There's not hard and fast rule that says D/s is the one true kink when it comes to emotional bonds.
<Shoshin> but then there are the exceptions to the rule, I have a long time friend who bottoms to me & my roomie, there are emotional connections, but not a commitment to a partnership
<LucyKW> a slave can be a top???!
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> yes MasterBaiter, everyones kink is different
<kimochi> if their Mistress/Master wishes them to be in certain situations, yes, a slave can top
<MasterBaiter> LucyKW: the possibilities are endless.
<LucyKW> i suppose they can go through the motions if they are told to but that doesn't change their nature
<Kilted_One> would be more correct to say that a slave "could top"
<LucyKW> ahh, thank you...that makes more sense
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> only on pms Kilted_One Sir.. LOL
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> Yes Brother KO, my slave sassy does top occassional but ONLY at my direction so she isnt a top but she does top
<Kilted_One> is there any difference in a sexual term between one or the other (submissive/slave)??
<Shoshin> initially it can be very uncomfortable for a sub to top
<Kilted_One> nods to master Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}
<Kilted_One> I have heard of that affliction sultry_spirit{Omy}
<lindy> sorry but I don't understand the the terms top and bottom
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> *smile*
<simplyme> play role definitions
<Kilted_One> anyone want to answer that one??
<`abi> giver and receiver
<`abi> pitcher and catcher
<kimochi> top & bottom defines what each person does in a scene, but doesn't necessarily define their inherent nature
<kimochi> i could top if directed to do so in a scene, but i'm a submissive at heart
<Shoshin> it is time limited and defined by the participants
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> agree Shoshin Ma'am to top as a sub can be very uncomfortable
<LucyKW> or even as a bottom, if one isn't comfortable being in a dominant position in a scene
<Shoshin> I top my roomie in public & he bottoms to me, but I am not his Domme, once we are out of the party, we are on equal footing again
<Kilted_One> pain slut, pain giver
<lindy> thank you
<simplyme> or bound and binder
<LucyKW> would it be fair to say that bedroom submissive=bottom?
<Kilted_One> personally I like abigailles..it has "balls"
<Shoshin> not necessarily, it depends on the person
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> not necessarily LucyKW... a submissive can be submissive in OR out of the bedroom
<simplyme> some submissives are submissive to all
<simplyme> some only to their Doms
<LucyKW> but i'm talking about someone who is only submissive in the bedroom/playroom...they are not submissive otherwise
<`abi> oh my KO
<Kilted_One> mmm I would think that a bedroom submissive is just that one who is happy being submissive in the bedroom and that is all
<paperclip> not necessarily
<MasterGuny> that is a bottom LucyKW
<Shoshin> LucyKW, if they define themselves as a sub, then that is what they are
<Kilted_One> laughs at abigaille it was in reference to you Pitcher and catcher
<`abi> I know!
<LucyKW> shoshin, i don't agree...i can call myself a pro golfer, but that doesn't make me good at golf
<Kilted_One> smiles
<`abi> It scared me that I got it
<kimochi> lol
<MasterBaiter> LucyKW: but "golfer" isn't a state of mind. A better analogy would be, if you feel happy, you can say that you are happy.
<Shoshin> LucyKW if people in a relationship want a D/s situation in the bedroom & the sub submits within the negotiated boundaries, then they are a sub
<sultry_spirit{Omy}> please excuse me for a moment *smile* r/l
<LucyKW> but if we're attempting to understand the differences we need some form of definition...if everyone self defines then that sort of defeats the purpose, does it not?
<Shoshin> LucyKW *LOLOLOLOL*
<MasterGuny> oh ya then while sitting in your chair you ask them to get you a pepsi and they say you have two legs get it yourself...what are they then?
<MasterGuny> exactly LucyKW
<Kilted_One> that is the joys of a relatively new lifestyle LucyKW....maybe in afew more decades we will look back and laugh at it all
<LucyKW> i'm all for people deciding what suits them best...but if we want/need some sort of definition self defining doesn't help
<Kilted_One> mouthy?? MasterGuny??
<Shoshin> MasterGuny - trussed up in the corner thinking about not giving Master lip?
<simplyme> spirited?
<simplyme> as yiou were looking for?
<arhiannah> dead meat...lol
<MasterGuny> I find the more main stream it becomes the less the definitions hold
<LucyKW> diluted bdsm?
<Kilted_One> you mean the more opinions there are??
<kimochi> lol
<MasterGuny> yes but they were a great sub in the bed room and or while playing outside of it they are dominate..that I would call a bottom
<simplyme> the only definitions that really matter are what the 2 (or more) negotiate
<LucyKW> well, that's my definition of a bedroom submissive...someone who is only submissive in the bedroom...so then you agree ;)
<MasterGuny> yes
<LucyKW> :)
<MasterBaiter> LucyKW: the question is, what are you hoping the definition will give you? If you find that your feelings place you in the box marked "sub", that doesn't automatically give you any rights/privileges/behaviours pertaining to that group. Because they're aren't any that hold in all cases.
<MasterBaiter> It's a convenient shorthand, but isn't a 100% fit.
<Shoshin> I don't worry about definitions for others, as long as they are happy being what they are, I don't care how others define me, I would rather they didn 't, I am growing and changing, the definition that fit last year is outgrown & to accept another's definition of me is to limit myself
<`abi> I really think that the only important thing is that when you tell someone "I'm a submissive or I'm a slave or I'm a bottom" that you make an effort to ensure that they know what you mean when you say it
<LucyKW> agreed Shoshin
<Kilted_One> but would you not agree that it is a set of langauge that we used to "explain" who and what we are and if we cant get the meanings right then we have a failure to communicate to some degree
<LucyKW> true abi....if i go into a forum for pro golfers and say I'm a pro golfer but can't tell them what kind ofclubs I own...well, that looks pretty disingenuous
<LucyKW> KO, agreed
<simplyme> in the case of the pro golfer all you have to do is say handicap
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> Yes Brother KO but we could spend the next 100 years trying to agree to definitions to explain who we are to other like minded people
<simplyme> and that defines you immediately
<Shoshin> KO, yes, there are "dialects" within the lifestyle that can create misunderstandings, but that is when open communication is important
<LucyKW> LOL simply me, touche
<Kilted_One> ty errr person I dont know LucyKW
<`abi> more to the point Lucy, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks you are ... so long as you understand and convey what it is that you believe you are
<kimochi> amen to that
<LucyKW> i know what i am...but then we are back to self defining
<Kilted_One> ahh and there in lies some of the fun master Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}
<`abi> of course we are, because that's the only definition that matters
<LucyKW> then why even have labels such as slave, submissive an bottom?
<LucyKW> IMO, they have some value within the community
<Shoshin> I can say I am a Domme, people who knew me 4 or 5 years ago can say "balderdash, you were a sub, you are a sub"
<Kilted_One> better yourself that someone who doesnt know exactly how you tick LucyKW
<`abi> because we like to put frames around our identities
<lindy> but how did you come to that conclusion LucyKW? You gave yourself that title or did it come to you through experiences?
<`abi> but the only frame that matters is the one I pick out
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> got to stay within the box eh abi?
<LucyKW> it's not about placing people into immutable categories so much as allowing for some form of understanding
<Kilted_One> was that the one with the spider web in it abigaille??
<MasterBaiter> LucyKW: nah, it's to speed up the cruising process. Like hankie codes.
<LucyKW> ack! I saw a list of those hankie codes somewhere...thought they were a joke LOL
<`abi> sort of a jack-in-the-box box Corporal_punishment{pb_ps} ;)
<Kilted_One> not in the gay scene they are not
<Shoshin> it also helps to know that going up to someone & offering to beat their ass would be welcome or fighting words
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> indeed lol
<Omy> 1Laughing 140ut 1Loud Shoshin
<Kilted_One> now that would be just PLAIN smart wouldnt it Switch Shoshin??
<Shoshin> KO, I would soooooooooo never offer to beat your ass, I value my own too much
<Shoshin> *LOL*
<Kilted_One> falling off his charir laughing
<`abi> hanky codes are rather simple ... the define specific characteristic likes and dislikes
<`abi> words like slave and submissive and even bottom ... define far more subtle qualities
<`abi> and they are not so easily made universal
<Kilted_One> and the best thing about them is that they are unspoken...one knows at a glance if they know the codes
<Shoshin> you take the generalized term & when negotiating bring it down into finer focus as to what that means to you
<Omy> Where would you put the hanky on your kilt KO?
* Omy chuckles
<LucyKW> right, and ultimately what you need to find is another person who's a good fit
<LucyKW> ok, NOW my mind is wandering ;)
<MasterBaiter> The subtleties are not universal, 'abi, but the broad definitions are useful enough. They answer the question "is this a prospective partner? should I find out more?"
<`abi> not necessarily MasterBaiter
<Shoshin> LucyKW right, which is why it often takes so long to find the right one
<Kilted_One> Im het so I dont use one Master Omy <winks>
<`abi> I could call myself a submissive, you could be looking for a slave ... but when we started talking specifics, we might find that we were looking for essentially the same thing
<lucykw> there, now there's no doubt LOL
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> but do you think that something like the hanky code could be developed for the non-gay BDSM crowd?
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> Yes abi that is so true.
<`abi> no Corporal_punishment{pb_ps} ... I look dreadful in beige
<Omy> I think that in BDSM we typically get to know the person we are going to play with...so over time we get to understand likes and dislikes
<Shoshin> the BDSM crowd tend to be individualistic and resistant to things that would limit or legislate their freedoms
<lucykw> how would hankies do that?
<MasterBaiter> It's already there, Corporal_punishment. It's not exclusively a gay thing, just like flagging left or right.
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> as this discussions points out Shoshin
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> oh MasterBaiter? I havent seen the code in use at any of the events I have attended
<Shoshin> Corporal Punishment, very true
<MasterBaiter> Or do I need to turn in my black hankie?
<Kilted_One> drat I couldnt even see it for you black shirt and black leather MasterBaiter
<Shoshin> I have enjoyed tonights discussion, good points and thought provoking insights
<`abi> I'd want to pick hankies just because I liked the colour and that could get me into a whole lotta trouble
<MasterBaiter> My point is, it wouldn't need to be "developed". Just use it.
<kimochi> :)
<lucykw> i know it's OT, but what is flagging left and right? please bear with the newbie
<simplyme> lol
<`abi> left pitcher, right catcher
* `abi tosses the ball to KO ;)
<Shoshin> thanks abi, I didn't know either
<lucykw> left dom, right sub?
<mynxxxy> may i share a website on hankies?
<Kilted_One> gotta like a woman with balls
<Corporal_punishment{pb_ps}> oh I didnt know Brother KO is a catcher lol
<MasterBaiter> Wearing a hanky, or a keyring, on the left or right side to indicate preference.
<mynxxxy> gives all the colours and meanings
<`abi> or left top, right bottom lucykw
<Omy> sure mynxxxy
<mynxxxy> http://www.liravensmc.org/About/hanky_code.htm
<lucykw> thanks
<Shoshin> hmmmmmmmmm in fet wear there isn't always a place to put a hankie
<lucykw> i don't have a place for my car key, much less a hankie...priorities
<`abi> tuck them under your boobs Shoshin
<Kilted_One> but I do have balls Master Corporal_punishment{pb_ps} <laughs>
<Omy> sure there is Shoshin...but we don't allow insertables 1Laughing 140ut 1Loud
<Shoshin> abi, I lost ice balls under there once, that wouldn't help
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Shoshin> only found them when we did a count of how many ice balls there should be