Julyl 9 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using hebron.in.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Masoch: did he really describe our life style?". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> Now, I haven't researched this topic the way zee did, so I'm going to take the liberty of shifting it slightly.
* slutkat watches Bernie deftly shift....
<Ron^`> who is Masoch
<BernieRoehl> The term "masochism" was originally intended to describe a psychological disorder. The modern psychiatric community no longer considers an interest in S&M to be an indication of mental illness.
<BernieRoehl> (Masoch is the person for whom the term "masochism" was coined)
<Ron^`> got it
<Ron^`> so I`m not sick after all
<BernieRoehl> And yet, many people among the general public (and some within the psychiatric community) still think that people who enjoy our activities have something wrong with them.
<crysania^> was it not just in recent history that it was removed as an illness?
<BernieRoehl> How should we try to change that perception?
<spankysub> spread awareness
<spankysub> ?
<Chiaroscuro{a}> I recently saw part of a documentary that discussed masoch..
<BernieRoehl> Yes, crysania, the change was made in the most recent edition of the diagnostic manual that psychiatrists use (DSM-IV)
<Chiaroscuro{a}> he was institutionalized by his wife who went along with his 'cravings' at first...
<crysania^> by talking to people about it, what they don't know they fear
* BernieRoehl nods
<spankysub> activities that are safe, sane and consentual are not sick are they?
<spankysub> even vanillas must agree
<BernieRoehl> So a lot of it involves a kind of "consciousness-raising", and education?
<dalian> I think the public munches and brunches are a start...shows that we have nothing to hide
<kathryn_kw> i agree
<BernieRoehl> One would think so, spankysub, yet many vanillas feel otherwise
<spankysub> totally i agree dalian
<canplay> is there a direct meaning of masochism?
<kathryn_kw> and trying to avoif films like tops & bottoms :)
<Sweetone{LT}> it is no longer considered an illness, what is left to change? it takes time for te general population to change attitudes to follow
<crysania^> yes, if vanilla people realize those around them whom they consider "normal" are involved it may give them second thoughts
<BernieRoehl> That's true, Sweetone. I wonder, though, if there's anything we can do to expedite that change in the attitudes of the general population
<`abi> 1 : a sexual perversion characterized by pleasure in being subjected to pain or humiliation especially by a love object -- compare SADISM
<`abi> 2 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
<BernieRoehl> I think "coming out" to people close to us can certainly help
<crysania^> there are some who will never change their attitude, but it is becoming more visible all the time
<Sweetone{LT}> why the need tho?
<BernieRoehl> That definition is pretty good, abi -- where's it from? (I don't really agree with the use of the word "perversion", but aside from that...)
<`shado> why do people have to *come out*?
<`abi> Meriam Webster
<Sweetone{LT}> what we do is a personal lifestyle choice...why does the general population need to give their blessings??
* `abi would substitute persuasian for perversion in the abidictionary
<BernieRoehl> Well, clearly no one *has* to "come out". But if *nobody* does, then the myths and misconceptions will persist.
<Sweetone{LT}> and why do they need to know about our personal choices?
<crysania^> i think if it is more accepted many who are afraid of venturing into it would
<`abi> because until there is some level of social acceptance people are subject to discrimination and persecution
<Sweetone{LT}> how so abi?
<kathryn_kw> also helps to avoid potential legal and media hassles if it becomes more accepted
<Sherwood^> consentual is a very important word
<`abi> loss of children, loss of jobs ... I know people who have lost both
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I agree crysania. There are a lot of people who want to pursue our lifestyle, but they are held back by their own perception that there must be "something wrong" with them.
<Ron^`> That` was me Bernie
<crysania^> me too
<kathryn_kw> i agree abi
<BernieRoehl> Most of us know people who have lost children in custody battles because of their involvement with BDSM. Others have had careers jeopardized. That's just not right.
<Sweetone{LT}> how does one's employer find out about one's personal life?
<BernieRoehl> Until we gain some measure of acceptance by the mainstream world, that sort of thing will continue.
<Goatwhore> my psychatrist is one for that sort of thing
<Goatwhore> if i told him much more than i already have he would probably have me locked away again
* Kilted_One knows at least one person in the lifestyle that works in the same place as me
<`abi> a website, someone outing them ...lots of ways Sweetone
<kathryn_kw> media attention.. being a " found in " etc
<Sweetone{LT}> then perhaps we need to work on socialization and manners before the going more public
* Kilted_One was "On the TV" in Northbound
<crysania^> i work downtown, many i work with live downtown, most parties are downtown, the odds of bumping into someone from work is very good
<Sweetone{LT}> that is your choice...
* crysania^ doesn't help that i usually park in my work parking spot and change in the washroom there *smiles*
<`shado> it is everyone's choice as to whether they wish to be *public* or not
<`abi> I've had waiters from munch locations come into my store and say ..."Hey!..I know you"....fortunately, my boss is very understanding
<slutkat> ;-)
<BernieRoehl> It is and it isn't, shado.
<kathryn_kw> we all take a risk but for most of it its a calculated one
<`shado> how isn't it Bernie?
<kathryn_kw> with some discretion
<Sweetone{LT}> it is Bernie...
<`shado> exactly kathryn_kw
<BernieRoehl> I know people who are trying very hard to keep that part of themselves hidden, but it eventually comes out
<Sweetone{LT}> discretion is a very important part of life..something that is not exercised often enough
<glory{Mlt}> eventually? youre saying ppl cant keep their personal lives private?
<`shado> and they had nothing to do with it coming out Bernie?
<BernieRoehl> A husband who wants custody of his kids may raise the BDSM aspects of her life during the court proceedings
<canplay> disgruntled ex Masters and subs !
<BernieRoehl> Yes, canplay, or just people with an ax to grind
<`DebUTaunt> I met a local vanilla the other night
* canplay nods to Bernie
<`shado> lol Deb
<`DebUTaunt> and we talked for about 4 hours about this and that and wangled eventually around to bdsm
<`DebUTaunt> he told me that his now estranged wife had asked him to "rape" her
<BernieRoehl> And the deeper question is whether we should all have to hide who we are, out of fear of being discovered. What we're doing isn't something to be ashamed of (at least, I don't feel it is).
<`abi> the point is...people shouldn't have to live in fear of being exposed...whether they choose to go public or not ... and only a shift in social attitude will remove that fear
<`DebUTaunt> but he was terrified it was a ruse to claim abuse later on
<`DebUTaunt> he's now rethinking it
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, abi
<Sweetone{LT}> Bernie...how are we hiding??
<Sweetone{LT}> what is it that we need to do in public that we are hiding now??
<slutkat> it might have been a ruse `DebUTaunt .... stranger things have happened.....
* `DebUTaunt is out to family, clients, vanilla friends etc.
<zaRina`> why hide anything
<Sweetone{LT}> a sub kneeling in front of her master in the walmart store??
<zaRina`> nod nod
<Sweetone{LT}> a sub eating off the floor in a restaurant??
* BernieRoehl is out too
<`DebUTaunt> my partner's career depends on being more circumspect
<zaRina`> so i like my bum smacked,,, fire me
<zaRina`> grins and gets hauled off LS
<kathryn_kw> well with those public aspects the other people in the area are not consenting to witness that
* Kilted_One ohhh fire play too
<canplay> i am more interested in hearing of S&M just now, i am not into pain per sa and would like to become more aware, to heck with the public, start with me
<`shado> exactly kathryn_kw !!
<kathryn_kw> a whole other discusion me thinks :)
<`DebUTaunt> in my office we deal with "S&M Trucking"... boss always says... oh, that's Deb's case
<slutkat> lol
<`DebUTaunt> and another guy said his grass was so high he'd have to wear hip boots. "Borrow Deb's" was a crack
* slutkat makes note to recommend that trucking firm to boss at office ;-)
<`DebUTaunt> other than that no big deal anywhere
<`abi> or perhaps just being able to feel comfortable in public with your personal dynamic SweetOne
<kathryn_kw> some people can be more out than others
<kathryn_kw> i dont think there is any simple answer
<Sweetone{LT}> that requires general acceptance abi??
<Sweetone{LT}> what about accepting yourself and being happy?
<crysania^> or when someone asks what you did this weekend, being able to say
<Chiaroscuro{a}> Bernie... I am a newbie, so I guess my opinion come with this built in qualifier (ie, do I really know what I am talking about) but I think 'coming out' depends on each person, their friends, their families and how those people will view this... for some it could be kept in the bedroom (why tell?) for others if a part of their life more obviously each individual must judge whether they feel the risks outweigh the benefits
<`abi> yes Sweetone...it does...if one is afraid of the reciprocating judgements
* BernieRoehl agrees with Chiaroscuro
<Sweetone{LT}> then we wouldn't do anything in life abi
<`shado> judgements are made of everyone...vanilla as well
<BernieRoehl> No one should be *required* to come out. But those who do feel the need to do so should be able to without fear of discrimination.
<`abi> wrong Sweetone...we all feel more comfortable doing things that are socially acceptable...and we all fear doing things that could cause us injury
<Sweetone{LT}> crysania^...do you tell everyone about all your life's choices?? about what position you had sex in too??
<kathryn_kw> true but some judgements have more consequences than others
<`shado> the whole world makes judgements of people....from the teenager with a weird hairdo on upwards
<plugged_uk> *begs to enter*
<canplay> probably for another discussion also , but i think it is easier for public to understand a Dom/me then a sub/slave, fears disrespect at work in found out
* plugged_uk begs to enter a pleading look to All
<BernieRoehl> No need to beg, plugged_uk
<BernieRoehl> All are welcome here
<plugged_uk> thanks BernieRoehl Sir!
<Mis-J> yes for another discussion canplay, but I feel strongly that a Dominant can also be disrespect for want to beat and tie ppl up
<`shado> very true Mis-J
<BernieRoehl> So, to drift slowly back on-topic (*smile*), how do we go about educating the public about what we do?
<canplay> i love to be flogged spanked, but does not feel it as pain ,, am i a masochist?
<BernieRoehl> (and in particular, help them realize that "masochism" is not a form of mental illness...)
<crysania^> communication
* BernieRoehl nods
<Sweetone{LT}> Bernie...how do you communicate to someone who cannot see...what the colour red is??
<kathryn_kw> how many centuries do we have to change their understandings and perceptions Bernie ?
<kathryn_kw> seriously
<`shado> maybe a radio & tv campaign :)
* `abi wonders how much of a difference public "test" cases like the Thornhill Madame make to public understanding?
<Sweetone{LT}> how do you explain the taste of an onion?
<Sweetone{LT}> that is how it is trying to educate those who do not understand, do not want to understand, nor probably will ever understand
<Kilted_One> get them to take you to the Outback Sweetone{LT}??
* canplay smiles at Sweetones parellels
<BernieRoehl> Good question, abi -- and it raises another one. What *does* the "general public" think of us? And what do they think of things like the Bedford case?
<crysania^> but not everyone does not want to understand some just don't know
<glory{Mlt}> thats like me and religion......weird sh*t as far as i am concerned..ill never understand it..but ppl do it *shrug* :)
<kathryn_kw> public vs bedford.. " she was a high priced madame and should have got more "
<spankysub> I can speak up hear. After only one week of business in a storefront location the reaction is varied.
<kathryn_kw> devils advocate here :)(
<`shado> and many know there are all sorts of alternate lifestyles and they still don't want it rammed down their throats
<spankysub> Many people are disgusted, even though they choose to enter the store
<Jaz^> does the general public care??????????
<`abi> I wonder if the place to start would be with societal fringes that are likely to be receptive...what about a BDSM display at the Renaissance Fair?
<BernieRoehl> What sort of store, spankysub?
<Sweetone{LT}> not really Jaz
<`shado> no they don't Jaz
<Jaz^> I agree with you sweetone
* Jaz^ nobs to shado
<Ron^`> You cannot change peoples way`s of thinking very easy,, there minds are in a paradigm, they see one way and can`t see anything else,, social order, and keeping up with the Jones are all things, that also help to stop people from seing different or open
<kathryn_kw> spankysub has opened a local bdsm store Bernie
<Chiaroscuro{a}> I think many people think bdsm is scary, sleezy and some funny...
<kathryn_kw> on king st
<Chiaroscuro{a}> little do they know..
<BernieRoehl> (Congratulations, spankysub! The area needs one)
<kathryn_kw> yupper big time!!!
<spankysub> I am trying to develop awareness in my own way
<Sweetone{LT}> people do not like things like religion and sex rammed down their throats...they live their own choices...
<glory{Mlt}> most ppl are into the MYOB i think....have enuff troulbe keepin themselves sttraight to worry bout other ppls life choices
<canplay> the vanillas i speak with actually have an open and honest desire to understand
<spankysub> awareness and convenience :)
<Jaz^> good points....Sweetone and glory
<BernieRoehl> I agree -- we definitely shouldn't be preaching at anyone, or trying to convert them, or going door-to-door with copies of "Different Loving" :-)
<BernieRoehl> However, we also shouldn't be hiding in the shadows, and afraid of coming out into the light.
<Ron^`> Most vanilla people are even into a little spanking now and then , there is always jokes about it
* dalian grins trying to imagine going door to door
<plugged_uk> if i can throw my limited knowlege in here.... london has a fetish exhibition at a national exhibition centre...it raises public awareness and it is very popular
<crysania^> there is a difference between ramming down their throat and just talking about it. Many people felt like anyone with Aids should be put on an island before communication changed opinions
<BernieRoehl> Yes, plugged_uk -- that sort of thing is very useful
<spankysub> and still not opinions were changed
<spankysub> all opinions sorry
<kathryn_kw> still a lot of people would prefer the island i am afraid
* Kilted_One wonders if plugged_uk gave two cents worth or twopence worth ;)
<crysania^> not everyone will change their opinions but that is their choice made with proper information available
<plugged_uk> no but it gets BDSM and fetish talked about not ignored
<Chiaroscuro{a}> yeah, that is something I wonder about.. how to elicit public awareness, come off with dignity and acceptance...
* BernieRoehl nods
<BernieRoehl> Other issues come up as well... for example, people should be able to go to their doctor without having to worry about their bruises showing.
* plugged_uk thinks it would be two penneth worth....
<dalian> I don't think any of us would want to try and change the minds of those who are definately not interested....but what about those who have always been interested even if only slightly...we should be open enough to allow the public to be moderately informed..for those who wish to be
<Kilted_One> awareness and aceeptance comes in many forms.....Goths for example has made it easier to wear fetish clothing out
<BernieRoehl> They should be able to go to a therapist wtihout having to hide the BDSM aspects of their life.
<spankysub> i don't think the media is ever going to be a reliable source to help spread the word though, they always seem to twisted things up
<`shado> there are thousands of sites on the web that are very public
* BernieRoehl agrees with spankysub
<Chiaroscuro{a}> .. I would add changing in the gym's change room also Bernie...
<`DebUTaunt> my Dr. was very cool when she saw the piercings... was curious in a positive way too and accepting
<Ron^`> folks relax, once some big movie producer and some money people in Hollywood think the same the movies will be out
<BernieRoehl> But perhaps the media has it all twisted up because nobody's taken the time to give them good information
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Chiaroscuro -- good example
<Sweetone{LT}> so was mine Deb :)
<Chiaroscuro{a}> honest question... is there really negative backlash in telling therapists about this aspect of one's life?
<spankysub> They want to sell stories that the general public would actually read
<`DebUTaunt> I doubt it... it's only one aspect of your life, and can't possibly be the root of ALL one's problems...
<canplay> yes Chiaroscuro ,,unless the right therapist is found, they tend to want to treat you for bdsm as the problem
<kathryn_kw> depends on the therapist/doctor
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Chiaroscuro. I asked a friend of mine, who works as a therapist, and she confirmed that not all therapists are kink-friendly and some are actually quite concerned about our interests.
<Ron^`> well Bernie maybe you and some people can help you
<Ron^`> give that info
<`abi> I believe that somewhere there is a list of "scene friendly" professionals...
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I think that would be a very positive thing Ron^`
<Sweetone{LT}> how do you change people to thinking that a beating is done lovingly??
<BernieRoehl> Yes, there's a list on the web of Kink-Aware Professionals
<`shado> there is abi and possibly EhBC should also publish it
<spankysub> how could a therapist have a problem with that? do they think people who like it in the pooper are also twisted and sick?
<`DebUTaunt> <weg> with a whip!
<Sweetone{LT}> lol
<Ron^`> wish I was professional
<Chiaroscuro{a}> Wow!! That is awful. I guess I naively expected mental health professionals to be aware of this and see it as less of a true deviance than a lifestyle/sexual/pleasure choice...
<Sweetone{LT}> it's only recently been taken off the illness chart...the rest hasn't followed yet...
<Chiaroscuro{a}> a good idea shado
<`abi> Chiaro .... mental health professionals are rarely all in agreement on anything ... the trick is to find one who matches your personal belief system
<canplay> so true Sweetone
<BernieRoehl> There are some excellent therapists out there who are quite kink-friendly -- just not all of them
<Chiaroscuro{a}> abi... true.
<Ron^`> If you went to a shrink and he/she told you weren`t sick , they see anymore visits or money from you
<kathryn_kw> that kink aware professionals was all us the last time i looked
<kathryn_kw> no canadian practitioners were listed
<Sweetone{LT}> there are some there, but not many kathryn_kw
<`shado> well maybe it's time to start a Canadian version
* canplay nods to shado
<kathryn_kw> lol then its improved when i looked there werent any :)
* BernieRoehl agrees with shado
<`abi> I thought that there was a list published by the Gay community in Toronto kathryn
<kathryn_kw> there may be for gays/lesbians but i wasnt aware of any for kink per se
<kathryn_kw> possible though.. worth looking into
<`abi> ah...perhaps I assumed it was kink inclusive
<kathryn_kw> but would rather have a local list :)
<canplay> is there a fine line with masochism or is it black and white?
* canplay is still trying to gain knowledge her herself
<`shado> and one would think since there are so many speaking about ones they know that are kink-friendly it would be easy to put together a list
<`abi> a fine line between what canplay?
<canplay> being considered masocistic or not
<BernieRoehl> I don't have the DSM-IV at hand, canplay, but I believe the wording is something along the lines of "if an interest in S&M isn't interering with the person's life, it's okay"
<`abi> ah...good question....I suppose to an extent it is a personal line....how you define yourself
<canplay> not that i need lables for people ,,but i like this knowledge if i am to help others when speaking of bdsm
<Ron^`> I would say you like being spanked or you don`t
<`abi> sort of like submissive ... if you think you are ... then you are :)
<kathryn_kw> :)
<canplay> that does no help when trying to relay to others though abi
<BernieRoehl> So it makes sense to reach out to the psychiatric community, or at least to that part of it which might be kink-friendly.
<kathryn_kw> and medical as well
<`DebUTaunt> sounds like if they're kink-friendly then we don't have to?
<BernieRoehl> Would the same thing apply to the legal community? Kink-friendly lawyers, to handle custody cases and related matters?
<kathryn_kw> so we dont get doctors freaking out about brusies etc
<`abi> it sort of does canplay...I think the important thing to convey to others is your personal definition of what you are
<BernieRoehl> Yes, kathryn, medical as well
<`DebUTaunt> I'm thinking that some of the misunderstanding of physical masochism is due to the number of vanillas who appear to be 'emotional masochists'
<Chiaroscuro{a}> Bernie... kink-friendly lawyers... availability/awareness of them would be great
<kathryn_kw> anyone professional that can help.. in whatever way we need them
<BernieRoehl> And media, which spankysub mentioned earlier
<`DebUTaunt> i.e. drawn to people or situations that give them personal pain (not the good kind)
<Ron^`> Question,,,,,,,If someone likes so much pain that they need medical attention could that be a illness
<spankysub> definately medical. I was once scared to go to the doctors even though a fresh branding was infected and I probably needed a prescription to help it heal
<kathryn_kw> media i would be very very careful about
<canplay> i have many waiting to hear of O/our discussion tonight, after one hour i do not have anything further to say about masochism *shrugs*
<Sweetone{LT}> is masochism = submission??...is that what people are saying?
<BernieRoehl> Right, Ron, but people may see a doctor for completely unrelated reasons and yet still have to explain bruises and things
<Chiaroscuro{a}> I definitely see them as different Sweetone...
<`shado> mascochism discussion didn't evolve canplay sorry
<canplay> i have been trying to ask that all night Sweetone
<Sweetone{LT}> that was my point Bernie..how do you explain beating someone lovingly...
<Sweetone{LT}> how do you explain bruises so that they are not seen as abuse
<BernieRoehl> I think the best way is to take it in stages, Sweetone
<`shado> how so Bernie?
<canplay> would be an oximoron to vanillas Sweetone that is for sure
<BernieRoehl> And certainly an overall consciousness-raising will make things easier
<`DebUTaunt> I explain it as applying escalating pain to induce a euphoric endorphin rush for my lover....
<`abi> and I think you explain how you feel about it ... how you view it
<BernieRoehl> Exactly
<`DebUTaunt> never use the word "beating"
<BernieRoehl> Right, the choice of words can be very important
<canplay> i use the endorphin explaination too DebUTaunt :)
<`shado> and all this is done in a 1/2 hour doctor's visit?
<`abi> I explain that I like alot of intense things...intense colours, intense flavours, intense sensations
<kathryn_kw> we give eahc other pleasure and satisfaction
* `DebUTaunt nods
<BernieRoehl> That's the point, shado -- you *can't* do it in a 1/2 hour doctor's visit, which is why we as a community need to educate the medical profession as a whole
<kathryn_kw> its what we want and need and gain pleasure and satisfaction from
<kathryn_kw> heart mind body and soul
<BernieRoehl> That way each individual doesn't bear the burden of doing that education with their own physician
<`shado> that won't happen Bernie....sorry but they don't even aree on how to treat the common cold !!!
* BernieRoehl smiles at shado
<Sweetone{LT}> lol, shado
<kathryn_kw> lol shado too true :)
<canplay> we don't wish to be treated ,,only accept that we are
<BernieRoehl> True, the medical community is not really unified. But if they understand the basic ideas, they'll be better prepared to deal with it.
<canplay> so then they can carry on with the matters we go to them for
<`shado> so you find the ones that WILL help and publish it as a community refernece then people make their own choices
<kathryn_kw> with their individual permission
* Kilted_One wonders if that would be possible Bernie, and how much it would cost in medical fees??
<`shado> Bernie...that's BS in my opinion
<kathryn_kw> not just list them
<Ron^`> Some women are clearly beaten` by there mates, and doctors pick up on this, they probably feel that you are in a aqbusive relationship and are only trying to help,,,,Is that right
<BernieRoehl> Why do feel that way, shado?
<`abi> there are flyers in my doctors office that show that he is prepared to deal with health issues related to all aspects of sexuality ... except BDSM...I'd like to see that happen, but I don't expect that it will until "Different Loving" becomes part of the physicians basic textbook collection
<`shado> because they are not unified...so how can giving them a few *basics* do anything
<Sweetone{LT}> Bernie...people have been trained and trained to look for abuse now....they see bruises, it's abuse...
<BernieRoehl> In the meantime, certainly putting together a list of kink-friendly professionals in the local area is a good first step
<Sweetone{LT}> you are not going to change that for the betterment....
<kathryn_kw> not just look.., report it too
<Sweetone{LT}> it is better they look for abuse to help those that need it..
<`shado> very true Sweetone{LT}
<Sweetone{LT}> not have to question when they see things...is this abuse or not
<Sweetone{LT}> and have bad calls when it really is
<kathryn_kw> we know that sweetone but the doctors may think differently
<canplay> good point Ron , will make the proffesionals really have to work at whether this is consentual or not
<BernieRoehl> Ah, but they need to do both. After all, their job is to diagnose, so they need to be able to distinguish between consensual BDSM play and non-consensual abuse, so they can handle it appropriately.
<`abi> it's their job to work at understanding your health issues
<Sweetone{LT}> and it is not thier place to have to decide whether it was consensual or not
<BernieRoehl> Right now, they lack the knowledge that would enable them to draw that distinction.
<Goatwhore> in crayon?
* BernieRoehl glances briefly at His watch
<BernieRoehl> Well, we've covered a lot of territory -- even if it wasn't the original topic :-)
<`shado> they do Bernie......but we've already established that the psychiatric profession says it's ok...aren't they doctorss?
<BernieRoehl> I'll try to find out what happened with zee, and we'll try to reschedule again
<`abi> of course it is sweetone...they have to decide whether a kid got a bruise by falling off his bicycle or not...making informed judgements is what they are trained to do ... they just don't have the information to make informed judgements about what presents as BDSM
<`shado> so they have *obviously* shared this with their peers
* `abi feels like a Bernie echo ;)
<Sweetone{LT}> we are not talking children abi
<`abi> no Sweetone...we are talking about a Doctor being able to make informed distinctions about what they are seeing ... with proper information, they can reasonably be expected to do that
<kathryn_kw> i would not assume that most psychiatritists will use the dsm 1v for their own opinions
<BernieRoehl> By all means, let's continue this discussion. However, I'll close the log at this point and start processing and uploading the discussion log.
<`shado> exactly kathryn_kw....
<Kilted_One> Bernie msg before you go??
<BernieRoehl> Sure, KO
<crysania^> Thanks Bernie
<Sweetone{LT}> thanks Bernie
<Chiaroscuro{a}> thanks again Bernie...
<`shado> no more so than blasting it in their faces kathryn_kw
<BernieRoehl> Thanks everyone for joining in!