July 7, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's just after 9 pm. Time for our regular Sunday night discussion.
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "How Accepting Are You of Other People's Kinks?". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<becky> hi MistressSarcastica
<BernieRoehl> So... the question is how accepting we are of other people's kinks.
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any opening thoughts?
<Achilles{tr}> One person's kink might be another person's perversion. <smiles>
<Leather_Bytch> i like to think i am totally accepting.....whatever foats your boat
<BernieRoehl> I think we
<Leather_Bytch> floats that is
<naughtyvickie> different strokes for different folks
<Symmetre{t}> I try to remind myself that others may not share my enthusiasm for the things that I enjoy ... that being the case ... I try to keep an open mind
<dalian> I always try to keep an open mind...even if it's something that I would never try
<{OT}cariye> but I have had someone say to me ...you do THAT??? ..or...but EVERYONE does this
<Symmetre{t}> where it gets interesting is when we come to something I find personally repulsive ... not just having no interest to try it .. but a deep disdain for
<BernieRoehl> That's a good question -- who here has been on the *receiving* end of other people's lack of acceptance?
<jewel`{F}> i find that it is not just the "kink" as it were that we as a community need to be accepting of
<BernieRoehl> Go on, jewel`{F}
<Symmetre{t}> I think we probably all have, Bernie .... but being aware of it is another matter [{OT}cariye:#bdsm-kw PING]
<BernieRoehl> Good point, Symmetre{t} -- a lot of the disapproval wouldn't come to us, at least not directly
<jewel`{F}> i guess You could say that i have Sir, i have been told by some that they think that my more formal use of the Sirs and Ma'ams as well as my behaviour doing as my Master expects of me is "annoying"
<Symmetre{t}> it seems you're more likely to overhear people discreetly talking among themselves ... omg check out that guy ... or hey look at this chick over here. It seems rare that someone will walk up to you point blank and say "hey ... that's weird"
<jewel`{F}> there is alot more to this lifestyle than the kinky play part, but it is the play that seems to attract the most attention
<BernieRoehl> And have they said that to you directly, jewel`{F}?
<{OT}cariye> I think that as a whole we accept that there is different play ....golden showers, knife , pony etc but if its something we dont care for personally we are less tolerant than for something we personally like
<jewel`{F}> Bernie yes they have Sir, and have even spoken to Master about how He shouldn't have me behaving the way He does
* BernieRoehl can just imagine your master's reaction to that! :-)
<stainless`> but jewel - don't others have the right to be addressed as they wish - within reason?
<jewel`{F}> Bernie i believe they agreed to disagree
<BernieRoehl> Yes, OT, I think that's true -- especially when the activities bump up against our own hard limits. I find that while I accept everything, some things are *easier* to accept and others require more of an effort
<stainless`> ie - expecting or even demanding * less* formality than is offered, not more
<{OT}cariye> its cariye :)
<jewel`{F}> stainless` if someone request my not using the Sir or Ma'am with them i will do my best after telling Master of the request not to use the term
<BernieRoehl> (sorry, cariye)
* {OT}cariye smiles
<{OT}cariye> its hard though if your MAster expects something of you and you are used to acting a certain way to suddenly stop for one person
<BernieRoehl> It's hard to imagine people objecting to being respected, but to each their own I suppose
<stainless`> for some, Sir or Ma'am may be "personal" and being called so by you - they may find it insulting if you insist. It becomes an issue of imposing your relationship with your Dom onto others, and while minor, it is just that.
<Leather_Bytch> i don't like to be called Ma'am
<MistressSarcastica> What do you mean by "accept"? Do you mean 'embrace'? Or do you mean 'not denigrate'? Why do we need to accept the practices of others, unless we are going to join then? I don't understand the whole concept of 'accepting' something that someone else is doing.
<Symmetre{t}> Call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for dinner
* BernieRoehl doesn't like to be called Ma'am either :-)
* Kilted_One clears his throat and pipes up that he often request that the term "Sir" not be used in irc as I think that the term has to be earned, in other words you have to know me and me you first before it can be earned.
* jewel`{F} giggles at Symmetre{t}
<Achilles{tr}> Prefers, "Lord High Executioner", but isn't pushy on the subject. <smiles pleasantly>
<{OT}cariye> but would You insist that a sub go against her training or just choose to ignore it for the short time you were around them Leather_Bytch?
<BernieRoehl> Of course, people call me "sir" all the time -- from students at the university to wait staff in restaurants
<Leather_Bytch> if that is part of her/his training i would tolerate it
<Leather_Bytch> but i would not have my sub call me that
* {OT}cariye nods
<dalian> if a slave is simply following her Masters orders...why would anyone expect her to disrespect those orders...to me it seems it would be proper to address that issue with the Master and not the slave
* jewel`{F} smiles at KO
<Achilles{tr}> is this a good example of a 'kink' which is being tolerated in others?
<Leather_Bytch> i agree i would ask his/her master to not use Ma'am with me
<jewel`{F}> Master expects me to be polite to A/all and respectful to those that have earned my respect
<BernieRoehl> I tend to agree with cariye, Leather_Bytch and dalian, however... consider a hypothetical example. What if (as part of her training), a submissive's master insisted she address everyone as "doofus" or something similar. Would we still be obliged to accept that?
* jewel`{F} giggles at Bernie
<jewel`{F}> please don't give Master any ideas Sir
<Leather_Bytch> lol......i would then take it up with the Master
<{OT}cariye> nope ..anyone who calls someone doofus deserves what happens :)
* BernieRoehl smiles at jewel`{F}
<dalian> I still would think that the slave is still following her Masters orders...and the tolerance issue taken up with the Master
<Achilles{tr}> Such addressing would be the responsibility of the Master for giving the order and should be taken up with them.. not the sub.
<stainless`> well, if I were a Domme and I simply said to you "please don't call me Ma'am" and you persisted calling me Ma'am I'd see it as rather insulting. While your Dom may prefer you to call others by a certain title, it's not taking into account that you have to respect another's wish NOT to be addressed by formal titles, IMO.
* Kilted_One remembers a gathering where his slave was instructed to ask every Dom/me what they should be addressed as, and one said "Bitch", that raised a few eyebrows when she would comply with the wishes...
<stainless`> tolerance has to be a two-way street :)
* BernieRoehl chuckles at KO's example
<Leather_Bytch> see Bytch would be ok for me too
<jewel`{F}> stainless` and if someone asks me not to use the term i try my best to remember not to use the term with that person but also explain to them that it is expected of me by my Master
<BernieRoehl> So we've talked about formal address. What other things have led to people being on the receiving end of disapproval/disdain from others?
<Leather_Bytch> collorings
<Leather_Bytch> did i spell that right?
<Achilles{tr}> Knife play.
<BernieRoehl> Collarings, Leather_Bytch?
<Leather_Bytch> yes
<BernieRoehl> Do you mean collaring ceremonies, or the actual collar itself?
<Kilted_One> rhiannon has met with one 'nilla that followed her all the way to the truck asking about her kolar, and what it meant and if she was tied by it, and how that was wrong etc etc
<Leather_Bytch> it is a touchy subject
<BernieRoehl> Yes, knife play is one that people do get upset over. Needlessly, in almost all cases.
<Symmetre{t}> I think in a lot of cases, the disapproval stems from simply not understanding what's going on
* BernieRoehl agrees with Symmetre{t}
<Symmetre{t}> it isn't so much a lack of respect as a lack of knowledge
* Leather_Bytch agrees with Symmetre{t} also
<{OT}cariye> I would have a hard time watching knife play but I think I could accept others doing it
<jewel`{F}> or perhaps a fear that they behaviour or "kink" will be expected from themselves
<Leather_Bytch> to each his own
<Achilles{tr}> I have had folks walk out on knife scenes and I'm all for that... if it bothers, don't watch. It's those who condemn or decide to ban it which seems a bit more of an 'acceptance' issue to Me.
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with Achilles{tr}
<jewel`{F}> there is nothing or no one (unless a Dom/me with a sub) making anyone stay and watch a scene, if you don't like it leave
* Leather_Bytch nods
<Symmetre{t}> but each person has to recognize that their own kinks may not be shared ... and be realistic when it comes to playing in public. Needle scenes or knife play will usually draw a comment from someone. You have to realize that going in
<BernieRoehl> I agree with Achilles{tr} and jewel`{F} -- if people don't like an activity, they're under no obligation to watch
<MistressSarcastica> Why do you have to realize that going in?
<Achilles{tr}> Exactly. I have zero trouble with people or even Myself making that decision. I would not care to watch a scat scene but I've no trouble with someone being free to enjoy it if they like... I'd just leave quietly so they could enjoy it in My absence.
<Symmetre{t}> Just be sensitive to the venue and who's there, MistressSarcastica ... if its a club with lots of newbiew ... more advanced play will probably elicit comments
<Leather_Bytch> yup
<Achilles{tr}> I have very rarely enjoyed and evening without some comments from viewers... both positive and negative. But this is a discussion regarding 'Acceptance" so it seems worth including in the discussion.
<jewel`{F}> but those "commenting" should also realize that the comments should be kept out of ear shot during the scene, it is very disrespectful to make loud or rude comments about a scene while it is going on that those in the scene can hear
<MistressSarcastica> And why are comments to be avoided, Symmetre? I'm not understanding what is so important about a non-participant 'accepting' what I am doing.
<Symmetre{t}> I agree jewel. Regrettably, that isn't always the case though
<naughtyvickie> those comments especially rude ones can influence a persons views on the scene
<jewel`{F}> i saw at least 2 scenes at the last DAL intereupted by such behaviour
<Achilles{tr}> Severity of scenes such as flogging or whippings can also draw comments and be considered "unacceptable" by some.
<Symmetre{t}> MistressSarcastica, do as you wish. When I go out, I go to have a good time ... not to explain myself. So, I make decisions concerning play activities with the venue in mind. Its self-serving, because I do so to avoid the type of interruptions jewel mentioned
<{OT}cariye> I think there will always be intolerance ...its human nature
<BernieRoehl> I think we all agree that courtesy is important, and that making comments within earshot of a scene is inappropriate
<BernieRoehl> And it sounds like many of us have been on the receiving end of the disapproval of others.
<Kilted_One> some ppl are just stupid more than ignorant and dont even realize what they have said has been overheard or is a problem...but then again that is what the DM's are for so that the players can at least continue without any more interuptions
<dalian> not only inappropriate...common courtesy
<BernieRoehl> What about the reverse? Have any of us ever caught ourselves being unaccepting of other people's kinks?
* Kilted_One puts his hand up
<jewel`{F}> i have
<Achilles{tr}> yes, indeed.
<Symmetre{t}> sure
<{OT}cariye> me too
<dalian> I have Bernie...but then I've learned to quietly distance myself from it
* BernieRoehl nods as well
<Kilted_One> yes I have had a friend that was playing with a third without the knowledge of the second....
<Achilles{tr}> It is something I am learning to handle better I hope over time.
<BernieRoehl> So once we catch ourselves being disapproving... what should we do about it?
<Kilted_One> difficult situation because it was a friend and you still want to remain friends
<Symmetre{t}> some things I will probably never feel entirely comfortable with. That's a great time to go visit with friends on the other side of the room
<jewel`{F}> but because i want others to accept the way that Master and i approach our relationship and such i do my best not to voice that unacceptance
<Kilted_One> In my case I simply asked the friend to make it right, and that I didnt approve of it but was not going to judge them on it as they were a friend
<BernieRoehl> That's an important distinction, KO -- between disapproving of something and being judgemental of it. A lot of people can't separate the two, which is unfortunate.
<naughtyvickie> each person is unique and therefore will ejoy different things, in this lifestyle we must remember that what may not be fun or your cup of tea could be what really turns someone else on and we should accept that as an individual they have that right
* jewel`{F} agrees with vickie
<Achilles{tr}> Censor the World for yourself and leave others to make their own choices. There's always another channel to watch.
<Kilted_One> I know it sounds like we are playing with English but there really is a difference between "accepting" and "approving' and "judgemental"...one can accept anothers play without approving of it
<jewel`{F}> sometimes it is hard not to say something though when you see someone new appear to be moving real fast
<Symmetre{t}> I don't think its playing with English at all, KO ... that's a very valid distinction
<jewel`{F}> i think that we all nilla's and kinksters alike need to learn to be more tollerant of others
<BernieRoehl> Yes -- and that can be a trap. You see something and you think "wow -- is she really ready for that?" or "does that top really know what he's doing?", and we feel justified in disapproving of what they're doing (whether we're right to do so or not).
<Kilted_One> as a DM I have seen several scenes that I have accepted but I dont approve of, that is just the nature of the scene...you can accept it as it is SSC but you dont have to approve of it for whatever reason
<jewel`{F}> not so much disapproving of it Bernie so much as just saying there is lots of things to try and will be lots of time to try them, take your time and enjoy it rather than rush
* BernieRoehl nods a jewel
<BernieRoehl> True enough.
<jewel`{F}> then step back but be ready to be there when that speeding frieght train crashes with out an "i told you so"
<BernieRoehl> So what can we as a community do to encourage greater tolerance and acceptance of a wide range of kinks?
<Achilles{tr}> Is it not as important to be accepting of an individual's decisions about when to try something as of what they try?
<Achilles{tr}> The key point being... it is their decision?
<{OT}cariye> I think the workshops help ....show how to safely do something
<Kilted_One> most definately Achilles{tr}, too true
<jewel`{F}> Achilles{tr} yes it is
<Kilted_One> all of this could be 100% better if we simply leared to do one thing better............................and that is to keep our opinons to ourselves or at least until in prvt
<too_willing> i don't think expressing opinions is incorrect... just when it is expressed that one opinion is 'better' than another...
<Achilles{tr}> That's a good point KO... acceptance doesn't mean we agree with everything does it? Just that we don't try to make those who are doing things we don't care for feel bad because of our problem with it.
<Kilted_One> but alas being opinionated is what we all are good at (myself at the top of the list)
<Kilted_One> too often too many others think the same too_willing, however they see their opinion through their own eyes and dont understand how others dont see it the same way
* Kilted_One nods to Achilles{tr} my point exactly....
<Kilted_One> I dont have to accept what you are doing neither do I have to be vocal about it either
<Achilles{tr}> It can also have a lot to do with how opinions are expressed. "I find whips very frightening", is quite a bit different from, "I don't think whip scenes belong at public play parties.".
* too_willing nods at Achilles{tr}
<Achilles{tr}> But they can be said when meaning the same thing in the speaker's viewpoint.
<too_willing> but the first statement is said in an "I" context and the second is in a "YOU" context - "I" statements are ethical statements of opinions...
<BernieRoehl> Well, we only have a few minutes left in the discussion. Anyone have anything else they'd like to add?
<too_willing> "YOU" statements are the ones that cause problems ie tolerance issues..
<Kilted_One> there you go naughtyvickie
<lilmunchkin66> thanx Kilted_One
<Kilted_One> yw
<BernieRoehl> Okay, let's wrap up the discussion there
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone for participating!
<Achilles{tr}> Ciao Bernie.. fine work as always.
<Kilted_One> thanks for the fine job of moderating Bernie
<Symmetre{t}> thanks Bernie :)
<BernieRoehl> Thanks!
<BernieRoehl> I'm going offline to process and upload the log
<BernieRoehl> See you all later!
<naughtyvickie> bye Bernie
<{OT}cariye> bye Bernie