July 4 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

Session Start: Sun Jul 04 20:44:11 1999
* Logging #bdsm-kw to '#bdsm_kw.log'
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's just turning 9 pm so let's get started.
<BernieRoehl> Welcome, everyone!  Tonight's topic is "Sex and BDSM", or more specifically, "Does BDSM Have to Involve Sex".
* curiouskitty votes yes
<BernieRoehl> Please remember that between now and 10 pm we'd like you to refrain from Walton-style "hi"s and "bye"s.  Thansk!
<lil^bear^> no
<BernieRoehl> One yes and one no -- and so the debate begins!
* curiouskitty chuckles
<BernieRoehl> Can you each expand on that a bit -- why or why not?
<BernieRoehl> Does BDSM always involve sex for you, ck?
* lil^bear^ giggles..
<curiouskitty> to me its all about sex..i have enuff bosses in my 'vanilla' life. There is some carry over into everyday existence...but to me it is all based on a sexual realtiohsihp
<BernieRoehl> So is BDSM basically a type of foreplay, then?
<curiouskitty> i am still confused about the 'top'/'submissive thing...but i really am only 'submissive' in the bedroom
<curiouskitty> yes Bernie...foreplay..
<curiouskitty> er bottom//
<curiouskitty> lol
* BernieRoehl smiles
<lil^bear^> sex is just SEX..bdsm is trust loyalty faithfullness...u dont need bdsm to have sex..but damn you need trust to have bdsm...
<jalyn> for me it does, but only because that is the only way i have ever experienced it, however, i'm still fairly new and can't really comment
<jenna{V}> not a sexual thing for me...
<curiouskitty> sec is not just sex to me...i have to trust anyone i have sex with...putting my life in their hands to some degree
* jalyn agrees
* jenna{V} nods
<BernieRoehl> So we have the two extremes -- for ck, BDSM is foreplay.  For others (lil^bear and jenna) it's something quite different and apart from sex.
<lil^bear^> if u are having sex..then why are you putting your life in their hands?
<jenna{V}> aids
<curiouskitty> AIDS....
<curiouskitty> various assorted other stuff...
<lil^bear^> ok..understood..but that is not BDSM...
<arng> hi A/all
<jalyn> depends on the kind of sex you are having, which for me would always include bdsm elements
<curiouskitty> why would you have a BDSM realtionship that didnt involve sex?
<katiias> because i am submissive
<katiias> very
<katiias> incredibly so
<lil^bear^> subspace..doesnt involve sex...
* katiias nods...
<curiouskitty> and i am not talkin about intercourse..i am talking about sexual pleasure...however you achieve it
<curiouskitty> is sub space sexual pleasure?
<lil^bear^> aww then we need to clarify the topic
<lil^bear^> does BDSM involve sex as in intercourse or sexual pleasure?
* curiouskitty chuckles
<BernieRoehl> So ck, if you receive sexual pleasure from being flogged, then the scene is sexual in nature even if there's no other form of sex involved?
<katiias> no
* curiouskitty nods...would seem so to me
<jenna{V}> for me , thus far, BDSM has represented more of a emotional give/take ...a level of trust and communication that sex could never achieve...different pepole see it differently...that is what makes it so confusing at times..not knowing what is "right" and acceptable 
<GentleMaster> is the defination of sex..the one that Bill Clinton used?
<lil^bear^> agree jenna
* katiias quotes... "I did NOT..repeat...did NOT enjoy flogging that young woman"
* BernieRoehl laughs
<GentleMaster> cute katiias
<lil^bear^> lol katiias
* katiias takes a bow...
<GentleMaster> I say...dont wear a blue dress during any scene or bdsm event
<curiouskitty> so..jenna...you dont believe that a 'vanilla' couple can achieve the same degree of communication and trust?
* katiias doesnt wear any dress...
<jenna{V}> to be quite honest i do not think that many people be them "vanilla o rBDSM" achieve the level of trust they hope for
<GentleMaster> do you wear any form of 'undress' katiias
<katiias> all undressed, sir
<katiias> S
<lil^bear^> communication yes..trust..i dont know....you know when you are tied to the bed and gaged and blindfloded and your partner is watching for any hand signals to signify that it has gone to far..well that is an amazing amount of trust...
<GentleMaster> and there is my point..if katiias is naked..Im going to think of sex...and most men would
<lil^bear^> hey mirth..:)
* jenna{V} nods
<katiias> well
<`mirth[DQ]> hi wiggly sis
<katiias> not necessarily so...
* katiias smaks the waltons...
<`Hardest> why would whips and chains be any different then a movie and dinner?
* katiias can be 'submissive' without any props around at all....
* lil^bear^ giggles..a movie and dinner isnt gonna leave you bruised and battered if gone to far
<GentleMaster> hi nitebound
<nitebound> Hello all
<jenna{V}> could !
<katiias> depends on movie..
<BernieRoehl> So is the key difference really one of trust, or is it something more?
<GentleMaster> *guess lil bear hasnt been to the movies Ive been to....
<jenna{V}> i think it is more so personal tastes..
<jalyn> isnt that what a submissive or dominant ultimatley strives for...that exchange of trust and communication, which ultimately is sexual in nature
<lil^bear^> well i think there is sexual pleasure in BDSM but BDSM doesnt necessarily mean sexual intercourse...
<jenna{V}> i find it erotic..
<GentleMaster> yes jalyn
<jenna{V}> spiritual almost
<GentleMaster> I find it orgasmic
<curiouskitty> to me..the goal is always sexual pleasure...
<jalyn> not necessarily intercourse...but it is the highest form of eroticism that i know of
<GentleMaster> I agree jalyn
<architect_> hi
<katiias> spiritual..yes..
<GentleMaster> playing with fire!
<jalyn> very spiritual
<lil^bear^> to me the gola is pleasing and being pleased..even if it means getting nuthing but a warm ass out of it...
<curiouskitty> my BDSM realtionship is the only one that i have had in my life that is always 'on'
<BernieRoehl> So it sounds as if that peak of erotic/spiritual pleasure is the goal, and sex and BDSM are two ways of getting there.
<jalyn> i think the best ways :)
<curiouskitty> i find that the two are inextricably linked...
<curiouskitty> cant have one without the other
<BernieRoehl> And yet, ck, I often see submissives (or bottoms) reaching orgasm without any of the things that most vanilla folk would consider "sex".
* curiouskitty nods
<jalyn> spiritual...well...for me i've attained those heights, but that's another ballpark
<katiias> oh yesssss
<curiouskitty> i am not arguing with that...but orgasm is the goal...
<lil^bear^> but ck you can have one without the other...
<`Hardest> who's?
<jenna{V}> my goal , as it would be, is to delevop a relationship with Mistress that allows B/both of U/us to express personal desires , comunicate freely live O/our lives in a way that allows U/us inner freedom
<curiouskitty> i am not defining 'sex' as 'intercourse'..or even masturbation...'sex' is about orgasm...sensual gratification...
<architect_> I disagree
<BernieRoehl> Go on, architect
<curiouskitty> but jenna...that should be something that is achievable without BDSM...at least in my opinion...
<architect_> sex doesn't Have to be about orgasm
<jenna{V}> yes very true ck....
<GentleMaster> orgasm is futile without a deep sense of care
<curiouskitty> i also added sensual gratification architect...
<katiias> wellll
<opal``> why do you think so many people don't believe that GentleMaster?
<GentleMaster> well mastered bdsm gives the sub/slave the nsg of care..leading to the love reaction..orgasm
<curiouskitty> for some...orgasm is just not possible all the time
<architect_> I think orgasms from masturbation are just fine...so those orgasms I don't see as being futile
<`mirth[DQ]> never met an orgasm i didn't like
<architect_> some people regard orgasms from masturbation better than others
<architect_> other orgasms that is
<GentleMaster> self love is masturbation
<GentleMaster> given love is care
<`Hardest> depends who's doing the masterbation for ya
<GentleMaster> which leads to orgasm of a higher nature  imho
* `jalyn grins
<BernieRoehl> Are love, sex and orgasms really that closely connected?
<architect_> I masturbate when I'm horny, I don't think about 'self love' when I do it
<GentleMaster> they are for me...but then Im a romantic and a lover
<BernieRoehl> I think people can have orgasms without sex (say, from a good flogging), and people can have sex without love.  And love without sex.
<BernieRoehl> Does anyone feel that a D/s relationships would be incomplete unless there were also a (conventional) sexual element to it?
<curiouskitty> to me..i guess they are..
<curiouskitty> in a romantic relationship
<katiias> yes but....
<`jalyn> i would ultimately want all of that...but i would think sex and orgasms more closely related
<architect_> people who do it for money probably don't think they're connected
<lil^bear^> love has nuthing to do with sex or orgasms
<katiias> do not need all that... to... satisfy the craving for being submissive... ...    
<`Hardest> they better be
<GentleMaster> so orgasms lil bear are purely mechanical!
<`jalyn> i may cum from a good flogging, but i still think of that flogging to be a sexual experience
<katiias> and submissives can achieve happiness from the act of submission...as Doms can achieve happiness from the act of being Dominant...and neither of them  needs to have sex or orgasm or love to achieve any of that
<lil^bear^> orgams are a natural bodily function such as urinating..has nuthing to do with love..
<curiouskitty> i wish lil^bear^
<katiias> ws agin eh?
<curiouskitty> much harder to come by (no pun intended)
<architect_> some people don't have orgasms ever
* lil^bear^ will stay away from the love aspect here..many know her feelings on that..
<lil^bear^> if it is not a natural bodily function then why do we masturbate?
<katiias> cuz we LIKE it eh
<GentleMaster> the joy of sex is not in the mechanics..but the ability for two or more to share it
<GentleMaster> otherwise..we would not all be here..but alone with ourselves
<lil^bear^> but then we are discussin something else..we are discussin JOY..which is beter if they are with one they like...
<BernieRoehl> Let's look at the question from a different angle...
<BernieRoehl> Does a BDSM scene have to have an explicit sexual component in order for it to be satisfying?
<lil^bear^> we can have JOY when there is two going out for dinner..Joy when we are with are kids..these things are always better if we are not alone...
<katiias> no
<lil^bear^> no
<GentleMaster> no
<`jalyn> no
<cyberbrat_> i have had wonderfully complete scenes where there was no explicit sexual aspect. 
<lil^bear^> me also cyberbrat
<BernieRoehl> Wow -- we're rapidly approaching a consensus on that aspect of the question!
* `jalyn laughs
* lil^bear^ giggles..
<BernieRoehl> Here's another angle...
<`Hardest> I object
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, Hardest
<curiouskitty> sorry...gotta scoot
* lil^bear^ looks at her kids in the room..counts..1 2 3 4 hmmmm..
<lil^bear^> i some how have extra kids brb
<`Hardest> I just object to having a consensus
<BernieRoehl> Does a satisfying BDSM scene necessarily result in orgasm?
<katiias> no
<`Hardest> once again for whom?
<cyberbrat_> don't think so, Bernie
<lil^bear^> back...
<BernieRoehl> For anyone, Hardest.  Is producing an orgasm in someone the goal of a BDSM scene?
<lil^bear^> no..
* lil^bear^ wiggles her toes
<architect_> Is producing an orgasm for the dominant the goal of a BDSM scene for anyone?
<nitebound> *blinks*
<katiias> no
<`jalyn> hmmm...thats a hard one, because those satisfying scenes did result in orgasm...i have not had the pleasure of experiencing bdsm without it...would like to though
<`Hardest> what if the orgasim or lack thereof is part of the scene?
<`forbidden> i have had a very erotic bdsm scene in which i was fully clothed and no orgasm for anyone was achieved and i have yet to have a scene top it
<BernieRoehl> So the absence of an orgasm doesn't mean the scene was any less satisfying?
<architect_> has anyone been in a scene where the dominant has received penile stimulation but not an orgasm?
<`forbidden> no not at all
<`forbidden> it was very intense
<BernieRoehl> Yes, architect -- I have.
<BLisS101> yes architect many times
<architect_> penile or ...what's the name for females?
<BLisS101> genital?
<architect_> ok
* `jalyn nods
<architect_> genital
<`Hardest> what if the donm not got a penis?
* BLisS101 nudges hardest
<MistressAstra> well she can always strap one on, Hardest :)
* KO_n_vixen suggests the usage of Dom/me for PC reference perchance?
<nitebound> *blinks*
* BLisS101 smiles at astra
<BernieRoehl> So if (many) people agree that BDSM does not have to involve sex, here's another question...
<trufriend> my first real submission was without any intimate sexual contact and i considered it pretty damned intense
<BLisS101> isnt bdsm sex?
<BernieRoehl> Does BDSM satisfy the same needs as sex?  In other words, is your sexual desire satisfied by a good scene?
<katiias> not necessarily so...
<katiias> diff needs there..
<cyberbrat_> sometimes it is bernie, but sometimes the same scene satifies other needs instead
* katiias has 'need' to submit...
<katiias> and...need to..have sex..
<katiias> diff..
* `jalyn agrees with katiias
<architect_> has anyone _ever_ had disappointed emotions because the dominant had an orgasm but you (the submissive) didn't?
<nitebound> i think it has to doy with sex. As the mind is the biggest sex organ. How do you get around that.
<lil^bear^> agreed
<toddy{T}> is BDSM sex, or mind sex?  I know my first sub space flight was definitely an orgasm of another type.  
<katiias> no
<GentleMaster> although admittedly katiias..they can happen similtanously
<katiias> i always do..sometimes Dom doesnt...
<Grrowl> hiya :-)
<katiias> yes, GM, they can...but they dont have to...
<GentleMaster> agreed
<BLisS101> maybe because i'm not submissive but i cant separate bdsm from sex, bdsm arouses me, arousal = sex in my books
<architect_> that's logical
<architect_> :)
<GentleMaster> Bliss comes from the pre-clinton era
<BLisS101> if one of us isnt getting aroused then i'm not that interested
<katiias> shud i repeat that comment?
<toddy{T}> arousal is more than the sum of our parts :)
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<BLisS101> i wouldnt have bdsm with my mother or my neighbour or my best friend...because it IS sex
* KO_n_vixen agrees with nitebound...the mind being the sex organ...and titillation can occur without any contact as can satisfaction
<katiias> bliss...it is arousing to the Dom to arouse me, the submissive...
<katiias> and in reverse as well...
<BLisS101> ya well its like that in the vanilla world too katiias
<architect_> I don't think bdsm always is sex, I'm thinking of the sadist and masochist
<katiias> and..whats wrong w/that ?
<BLisS101> but dont the s and m do their thing because it arouses them?
* katiias is not so much masochist as submissive..
<BLisS101> nothing wrong
<katiias> no bliss..
<katiias> i 'am' submissive...
<katiias> it is not ... 'sex'... to me... necessarily...
<BLisS101> i "am" kinky
<architect_> I don't know if they do it because they get horny because of it...someone tell me
<GentleMaster> and I am a submissives friend
* BLisS101 smiles...agreeing to disagree
<katiias> lol..we know that hon...
* Lord^^Jay thinks Dom= control and submissive = letting go
* katiias nudges GM
* BLisS101 has been thinking submissive=control
<GentleMaster> and friends always want to make their submissives horny
<BLisS101> lol
<Lord^^Jay> and Dom and sub dont have to have sex to have a good time
<GentleMaster> and submissive!
* `jalyn chuckles
<katiias> in a way..bliss..yes
<katiias> lol@GM
<MistressAstra> wonders from a Dommes aspect that often the removal of sex from a bdsm scenc can be the most tittilating scene O/one could have.e
<katiias> right on, Lord^^Jay...
<BLisS101> but doesnt titillating mean arousal?
<toddy{T}> control... an elusive thing to attain or give up 
<BLisS101> of some sort?
* lil^bear^ wiggles her toes...
<nitebound> *nods*
<Lord^^Jay> you dont have to have an orgasm to have a good time 
<GentleMaster> the best thing about the word titalating is the first three letters
* lil^bear^ agrees with Sir Lord Jay
<BLisS101> lo
<BLisS101> lol
<Lord^^Jay> arousal of the senses and the mind but not necessaruly including sex 
<toddy{T}> less of a mess to clean up too 
* BLisS101 happens to like cleaning up messes thanku very much
<KO_n_vixen> yes Astra, there is something to be said for the control of anothers' sexuality...
<BernieRoehl> So it sounds like we're again talking about the (for want of a better word...) spiritual release that comes from both BDSM and sex, by themselves or in combination.  Is that a fair description?
<MistressAstra> i find in many bdsm, scenes bliss than im strangely detached, i enjoy it on a more cold, caluclated way i suppose.
<katiias> lol
* Lord^^Jay would agree with BernieRoehl
<nitebound> oh, bliss is in many bdsm scenes
<BLisS101> bernie, can wew define what u mean by spiritual? wouldnt psychological/emotional be a more accurate term?
<toddy{T}> using all of the five senses multiplies what genital arousal alone could ever give.
<BLisS101> agreed
<Lord^^Jay> i ahve been to many parties where there is no sex at all just good ol BDSM
<KO_n_vixen> well said toddy{T}
<MistressAstra> thinks Fet Nights run along the same lines, LJ
<architect_> it seems people have different views of what bdsm is
<Lord^^Jay> yes agreed MistressAstra
<architect_> or is about
<BernieRoehl> I'd be happy to go with psychological/emotional, sure.
<Lord^^Jay> that is exactly what i was thinking of MistressAstra
* BLisS101 s iles
<`abi> no architect..just different views about what it is to them
* BLisS101 smiles even
<MistressAstra> :)
<architect_> that's what I meant, abi
<trufriend> titalate=to excite or stimulate pleasurably, often erotically
<BLisS101> thanks tru
<trufriend> np
<toddy{T}> here's a twist.. all being intelligent and living fast paced, stress filled lives.. perhaps we search for an "orgasmic" release for mind as well as body?
<GentleMaster> theres that tit word again!
<katiias> yes toddy.....
<Lord^^Jay> well said toddy{T}
* toddy{T} has no vices but BDSM... trying to quit <not>
<BLisS101> toddy many ancient and primitive cultures have "pain rituals" as stress relievers
* katiias finds the harder she drives herself at work..the MORE the need for..the submissive release/experience.....
<GentleMaster> work very hard katiias
<nitebound> there you go katiias
<katiias> oh..i am...Sir...i am....
<BLisS101> we dont have culturally accepted outletrs for those types of stress relievers, hence our rampant addictions, cardiac disease, ulcers etc
<GentleMaster> good...
* `jalyn agrees with katiias
<KO_n_vixen> <KO offering toddy his 6" stell vise for that twist...> precisely toddy{T}....and living the lifestyle answers both those needs
<GentleMaster> you work hard to jalyn!
<nitebound> a hard day of control and you just want to give it up. let go of the stress
<lil^bear^> over activity
<toddy{T}> most people use exercise and massage to relax, we take the stress release to a higher level.
* katiias plays Domme too danged much at werk....
<katiias> lol
<`jalyn> yes Sir...always
<katiias> well..
<lil^bear^> when i am bouncing and hyper the best thing for me is a good flogging..sex or no sex..orgasm or not...
* katiias is hoping to schedule a massage soon....
* katiias winks
<katiias> ayup lil^bear
<GentleMaster> yes a delightful thought katiias
<architect_> is bdsm on a higher level that exercise?
<BLisS101> no
* katiias nudges GM
<katiias> for me....its the only level..
<lil^bear^> yes..definitely
* `abi hates exercise
* katiias <~doesnt exercise...
<lil^bear^> me to katiias
<BLisS101> its the same as exercise
* katiias finds that... those kneeling positions...contortions..enuff exercise...
<architect_> I see
<katiias> all them spreaders..ropes.... etc.... 
<katiias> yaknow
<toddy{T}> i think bdsm incorporates the mind into the body torture of exercise.
<MistressAstra> excerising the mind and soul ,as well as the body
<ExerciseTrainer> I agree
<`jalyn> lol
<katiias> roflmao
<lil^bear^> lol
<BLisS101> any jogging addict will tell u his/her mind and soul is incorporated
<BernieRoehl> So... we seem to be saying that (for various reasons) we need the emotional release that comes from BDSM as well as the sexual release.
<katiias> yes Bernie...
<`jalyn> yes
* toddy{T} thumbs his calorie burner book, hmm... no flogging, whipping or spanking.. those are definitely exercises
<katiias> not necessarily...from same 'scene'...
<katiias> or same time...
<MistressAstra> yes i think so Bernie, 
<nitebound> oh, Bliss i was like that. When i gave up running i went into alittle depression.
* BLisS101 cant play effectively WITHOUT emotional connection/release
<ExerciseTrainer> -NickServ- The nick ExerciseTrainer has now been registered to you...in case I need it later!
<architect_> I love running. It gives me great satisfaction. I wouldn't say sex is on a higher level than exercise. But that's my opinion.
<toddy{T}> emotional/sexual/physical
<BernieRoehl> And there seems to be some consensus that the emotional and sexual releases and go together, but can be quite separate as well.
<architect_> it's sort of two different things, sex and exercise
* katiias nods
<katiias> sex IS my exercise
<`Hardest> sure we do...jogging comes to mind
<ExerciseTrainer> I agree katiias
* `jalyn agrees
* trufriend wishes sex was HER exercise too katiias!
<ExerciseTrainer> good jalyn!
<MistressAstra> thinks that one should excerise moderatly to keep in good form, 
* katiias throws the letters h n g to the ExerciseTrainer....and laffs...
* `abi just lies there
<architect_> well for me, it ISn't my exercise
* katiias nods to tru...
* trufriend wishes she just had sum sex.....period!! LOL
<toddy{T}> working out with a friend vs. BDSM with a sig. other which do you find more fulfilling?
<katiias> on a higher plane mentally, abi?
<`Hardest> or do we induce another form of stress?
* BLisS101 thinks in our civilized culture we have sterilized and compartmentalized the physical from the emotional and from the spiritual, and perhas bdsm bridges those for some people
<toddy{T}> you're right bliss
<architect_> give an example, Bliss
* katiias achieves... mental/emotional/spiritual/sexual all in one release... satisfaction...from the marital D/s relationship...
<BLisS101> we go to the gym for a work out, we go to church to commune with a higher power, we become stressed mentally at our jobs, and we have sex on a saturday night with the lights off
<BLisS101> i hear people talking about bdsm in a way that combinesd all
* katiias wires bliss's house for lights to come on saturday nite...
<lil^bear^> and a shirt on
* lil^bear^ giggles
<KO_n_vixen> I dont know about the rest of you however I practice BDSM because....a) I enjoy it.... b) its sexual and.... c) there is a natural draw to it for me.....no spiritual thinggy in there at all
<ExerciseTrainer> and in comes <------------- to release you  from these burdens!
<katiias> panties too, lil^bear?
<lil^bear^> no..lol..no panties are ok..
<architect_> is there any church goers here?
<lil^bear^> but a shirt is a must lol
<katiias> for some...it prob isnt... spiritual... fo rme .. it is
* lil^bear^ is a church goer
* katiias <~~in ministry work..does that qualify???
* katiias laffs
<BLisS101> isnt spiritual for me either but i hear people throwing that term around
<MistressAstra> goes to church about 10 times a year.
* BernieRoehl wonders if "religion and BDSM" is sufficiently off topic for us to call it a night :-)
<architect_> why do you go to the church, lil bear? (i'm curious)
<BLisS101> and subs worshipping their doms as tho they were all knowing/all powerful
<ExerciseTrainer> it does katiias!
<BLisS101> oh bernie i would love for that to be a topic for another night please
<MistressAstra> lol, Bernie
<BernieRoehl> It's just turned 10 pm, so we're going to wrap up the formal part of our discussion.  Please feel free to keep chatting, though!
* katiias spends 12+ hours a week working in ministry...
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated.  Have a great evening, and see you at the munch on Wednesday!
<BLisS101> thanks bernie
<MistressAstra> thanks Bernie
<`jalyn> thanks Bernie..see you wednesday
<toddy{T}> thanks Bernie
<nitebound> thanks Bernie
<KO_n_vixen> thanks Bernie
* lil^bear^ wiggles her toes..discussion is done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WATERFIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Session Close: Sun Jul 04 22:06:17 1999