July 2, 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> I've set the channel message as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using hebron.in.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "How to Negotiate a Scene with a New Partner". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> Welcome, everyone. Sorry for the slight delay, it's been a busy weekend.
<BernieRoehl> Tonight's topic is about negotiating scenes with new partners. Does anyone have any initial thoughts on the subject?
* bottoms_up37 learned recently that its important to me to discuss expectations with a new partner
* BernieRoehl nods
<bottoms_up37> not just a new partner per se... but this was in a two couples situation
<fire{RB}> ok got to go
<BernieRoehl> Expecatations in terms of physical play, bottoms?
<`Chiaroscuro> I have never had a scene and neither has my partner.. so I guess I am not sure how to go about beginning a scene period
<crysania^> when should negotiations be done?
<bottoms_up37> not just physical limits, etc... but if and how we play. a persons feelings were hurt because of assumed beliefs on what would happen
<slutkat> negotiate all possibilities prior to play... leave nothing to chance...
<BadFile37> As uncomfortable as it may be...all aspects should be discussed.
<freddy48> is it acceptable generally to have a written list of limits?
<bottoms_up37> i think meeting with a new partner in a nuetral place where you can talk comfortably is a good idea ;)
<bottoms_up37> to me, its necessary freddy
<crysania^> agrees with bottoms
<BernieRoehl> A written list does make sense, freddy, but it's not often used (for whatever reason)
<bottoms_up37> why do you think it isnt, Bernie?
<freddy48> i think the power exchange has a form
<BernieRoehl> Actually, let's clarify a bit here... there are two aspects to the topic
* bottoms_up37 listens
<`Chiaroscuro> in terms of transcending the line between thinking and role-playing
<BernieRoehl> First, there's the scenario that bottoms is referring to -- negotiating a scene (e.g. at a fetnight) with someone who you haven't played with before
<BadFile37> I just received a message....are these allowed without permission?
<SweetMaster> I agree
<BernieRoehl> The second would be negotiating with a new person who's intended to become an ongoing playpartner
<BernieRoehl> In the latter case, a written list of limits and expectations is often used (and is a very good idea)
<bottoms_up37> but either one.. its the first time playing?
<BernieRoehl> To answer your question, BadFile, no -- people should normally ask in channel before messaging, unless it's someone you already know well
<crysania^> thinks negotiations are necessary so no surprises to either partner
<BadFile37> I thought as much.
<BernieRoehl> If the messaging is persistent, let one of the ops (the ones with the '@') know about it
<BernieRoehl> Yes, bottoms -- that's my assumption
<bottoms_up37> ok Bernie ;)
<BernieRoehl> And yes, either way negotiations are important
<`Chiaroscuro> I guess it is hard to know what your limits are when you're new but thats what experimentation is for..
<BernieRoehl> Yes, `Chiaroscuro, with new partners (particularly when both are new) it can be difficult to set limits
<bottoms_up37> well i have played at fetnights and privately with another Top.. without alot of negotiating. *scratching my head* .. wondering why i didnt do the bdsm checklist exchange. i would NOT play with a bottom without one.. guess that makes me a hyprocrit?
<freddy48> so should the top or the botom start off?
<BernieRoehl> The best advice, I think, is to talk a lot and move slowlly
<crysania^> nods at `Chiaroscuro
<bottoms_up37> moving slowly doesnt seem common around here... lol
<`Chiaroscuro> moving at a crawl..
<BernieRoehl> The reason for making the distinction is that playing with someone new at a fet night (again, what bottoms is referring to) is a more spontaneous activity than a scheduled "play date"
<crysania^> some form of negotiation still takes place, talking and getting consent is a form of negotiation
* slutkat seconds bottoms_up37 comment
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, crysania
* bottoms_up37 is willing to have a play date as a bottom without a bdsm checklist.. but i would DEMAND a checklist if i was to be a Top ... hmmmm
<sunemoonsong> sometimes though its pretty difficult to get over that awkwardness of a spontanious scene
<BadFile37> Forgive me...but I've never heard of a fet night? what is this referring to?
<LrdThomas> there is an element that can be introduced that is fun.... and that is telling a sub that hearing her limits is nice, but that she has to understand several things. 1. limits are signposts for the dom to navigate but not be directed by. 2. there is nothing wrong with leaving a sub wanting more, and 3. there will be no rush through limits, but doen in time when the dom decides.
<SweetMaster> both need one bottoms_up37, IMO
<BernieRoehl> A fet night is a public event where people socialize and play, BadFile
<BernieRoehl> It's like a play party, but with no pre-determined guest list
<BadFile37> Thank you
<bottoms_up37> some people say discussing things before hand wrecks the magic .. phhffttt. with a new partner it should be essential... be spontaneous with someone you are very comfortable with
<`Chiaroscuro> LrdThomas.. but what if you are more into the pain than the power exchange..?
<SweetMaster> hearing those limits and so on is a turn on I think
<bottoms_up37> yup SweetMaster and i think i will fwap myself and make sure i stick to sharing one.. even if it isnt asked for
* SweetMaster nods to bottoms_up37
<crysania^> then that should be negotiated `Chiaroscuro
<LrdThomas> `Chiaroscuro then tel them to hit harder. <g>
<BernieRoehl> Much of what one finds on the checklist would not take place at a fet night in any case. The nature of public play inevitably limits the range of actitivies.
<`Chiaroscuro> Bernie, is it proper etiquette (at a fet night) for 2 Doms to work with a single sub?
<BernieRoehl> In private play, with fewer restrictions, negotiation becomes even more essentialy
<bottoms_up37> a damn shame, imho! *giggles*
<slutkat> lol
* `abi sure as hell hopes so
<BernieRoehl> Yes, `Chiaroscuro, quite often
<SweetMaster> or 3 0r 4 Doms on one, :)
<bottoms_up37> lol!
* slutkat grins
<shaniholly> Bernie could you be more specific about the difference between what goes on at a fet night <as relates to it being more limited>?
<`Chiaroscuro> LrdThomas, I think you missed what I meant.. what if the humiliation aspect was undesirable, could a sub approach a Dom from this standpoint?
<crysania^> does not limits change when the partners develop more trust and what you would do with a first time play partner may not be the same as with one you know well
<BernieRoehl> So in terms of the negotiation itself, what do people feel should be part of the discussion? Limits, obviously, but what else should be brought up?
<slutkat> expectations afterwards
<BernieRoehl> Well, for example, most fet nights don't allow explicit sexual activity (e.g. no penetration). In private play, that would have to be discussed as a possibility.
<`Chiaroscuro> Because me and my so have an interest in working together in addition to working with ourselves
<LrdThomas> I'm not sure what you mean `Chiaroscuro
<BernieRoehl> Yes, `Chiaroscuro, you and your significant other can certainly double-top (or double-bottom, for that matter)
<crysania^> safe words, time frame of the scene
<BernieRoehl> Yes, crysania, limits do gradually expand as the trust grows
<`Chiaroscuro> LrdThomas... I don't know how to make it any clearer.. I guess being a bottom but not being a sub, just being in it for the pain aspect.. can a Dom be approached for this
<LrdThomas> sure
<bottoms_up37> ahhh the expectations afterward are important on different levels.. 1. will ya call me in the morning..sorta thing 2. what if we dont want to play again 3. what if we do 4. A BIG ONE TO ME.. lol.. there is no power exchange away from that one play time..like at a munch the next week he isnt my Dom *grin*
* slutkat nods to bottoms_up37
<BernieRoehl> So clearly it's not just what happens during the scene, but what happens post-scene as well.
<`Chiaroscuro> so post scene would also be negotiated?
<bottoms_up37> it is just as important... yes
<slutkat> both Dom and sub open up a very special part of themselves in play... to totally ignore this has happened later on... can be very hurtful to one or both parties... so negotiating the post scene is important i'd think....
<LrdThomas> post scene is part of the scene.
<sunemoonsong> being fairly inexperienced, and in the past not having known many people, there have been times where i have been too trusting too quickly (its in my nature) and sometimes have neglected to remind that Person before play. In that soemtimes the Dom will also forget or not remember either.
<sunemoonsong> just thought i would bring it up, its something to be addressed sometimes
<BernieRoehl> For example, if I'm doing a scene with a sub who's collared to another Dom, quite often that Dom will expect to do the aftercare (which is fine, provided it's discussed between He and I beforehand)
<`Chiaroscuro> aftercare?
* ddesire` softly smiles
<BernieRoehl> The cuddling and connection after the scene is over, `Chiaroscuro
<slutkat> to aid in the "coming down"
<SweetMaster> it is important to convey what is important to you, sunemoonsong, I agree
<`Chiaroscuro> Bernie, I didn't realize that this was a common part of the whole scene, I mean outside of a close relationship
<BernieRoehl> It's quite often that time which forms the strongest emotional bonds, which is why some Doms who share their submissives for play will insist on providing the aftercare.
* bottoms_up37 has now run into two sets of new people meeting.. and they didnt connect at all but since it was agreed they would play.. it turned out terrible. ;(( wondering how one can get out of a negotiated scene once it starts.. delicately? to me, i am too direct so i want to know more subtle ways *Grin*
<crysania^> coming out of a scene is a very emotional time
<BernieRoehl> It varies, `Chiaroscuro, but in the absence of any specific negotiation it's best to provide that aftercare. No one will ever complain about it, but it's a very bad idea to leave someone without it who needs it.
* sunemoonsong nods in agreement with crysania
<slutkat> agreed crysania^.... it can be extremely emotional for both sub and Dom... the caring shown by the Dom in aftercare is very important....
<bottoms_up37> btw, this wasnt me playing.. i dealt with the fallout of these people *Grin*
<SweetMaster> the deeper the scene the more emotions released also= more negotation and aftercare
<crysania^> does negotiations also include how and when the scene will start, eg as soon as partners arrive or work into it
<BernieRoehl> I personally feel it should be okay for either partner to say (prior to the scene) "I'm just not in the right headspace at the moment". Doing it *during* a scene is much more difficult, and may not be possible short of safewording.
* slutkat generally comes out of a scene crying and/or chilled... needs very direct physical contact with a warm cuddly body to just hold and calm in the aftermath..
<bottoms_up37> do Doms feel comfortable safewording? does a sub get hurt if they do?
<bottoms_up37> hurt emotionally i mean ;)
<slutkat> interesting bottoms_up37... very interesting...
<SweetMaster> Doms must learn to do it too bottoms_up37 if it's not the right situation..even moreso perhaps
<LrdThomas> doms safeword???
<bottoms_up37> LT, if you go to play with someone and dont want to ... how do you get out of it without hurting their feelings?
<BernieRoehl> I don't think Doms actually literally safeword, but they can choose to end the scene if it's going in a direction they're not comfortable with.
<slutkat> or perhaps pull it back from being too intense?
<bottoms_up37> do people get into specifics for negotiations? ok, i spank for 3 minutes, then this flogger then that?
* slutkat chuckles
* ddesire` giggles
* BernieRoehl smiles at bottoms
<BernieRoehl> I would feel like a "programmable Dom" if things got that specific :-)
<LrdThomas> not me bottoms.... i've no interest in the sub directing the scene.
* crysania^ heads for the keyboard to write the program
* bottoms_up37 grins... i was just curious ;)
<SweetMaster> lol
<BernieRoehl> Things I need to know before a casual scene are basically interests and limits, and previous experience
* BernieRoehl smiels at crysania
<slutkat> basically a bdsm play partner checklist
<BernieRoehl> I also trust a submissive to let me know if there are any serious health issues I should be aware of
<bottoms_up37> and in my opinion *prudish virginal look* .. sex needed be involved in the negotiations for a first play with a new partner *big smiles* ... right? :)
<BernieRoehl> (And if she's totally brand new, I pro-actively ask her about health issues)
<BernieRoehl> Yes, bottoms -- I think it does need to be part of the negotiations
* slutkat nods nods nods
<crysania^> the checklists i have read are kind of vague, they do not allow for the i haven't tried it but am interested
<BernieRoehl> Another issue is whether or not leaving marks is okay.
<bottoms_up37> yup, important one Bernie ;)
* slutkat nods nods nods to that too ;-))
* SirBear thinks sex is non negotiable
* crysania^ likes the marks
<slutkat> non negotiable???
<SirBear> <eg>
<BernieRoehl> Many submissives enjoy their marks, but there's the issue of who else might see them (are they going for a medical checkup, do they shower with others, etc)
<slutkat> mm... group showers.. ohhh kinky Bernie!
<kathryn_kw> lol
<shaniholly> lol
<BernieRoehl> Speaking of which, one question I've taken to asking lately is "Are there any other people in your life I should know about?"
* BernieRoehl smiles at slutkat
<bottoms_up37> personally *ducking my head* .. it is my opinion that people play too quickly.. private intimate play i am infering *hiding my public play slut head*
* slutkat smiles sweetly at BernieRoehl
<crysania^> understands what Bernie means, would not want my mother seeing them if i was going swimming at her house
<BernieRoehl> (e.g. do they have a Master they haven't gotten around to mentioning to me yet, or a husband, or a jealous boyfriend...)
<slutkat> ya..husbands kinda are important....
<bottoms_up37> just a tad *grin*
<shaniholly> <or a jealous girlfriend <S>>
<slutkat> lol
<bottoms_up37> lol.. yup ;)
<SweetMaster> hehe
<`Chiaroscuro> this may be the no no, but what about asking about blood borne illnesses
<LrdThomas> this may shock some... but the fact is... i don't negotiate scenes with anyone. Thet either trust me or they don't and thats about it.
<slutkat> thats the safety health issue i think
<BernieRoehl> To me, that falls under the health questions `Chiaroscuro
<crysania^> will always tell the truth way way safer and easier on both partners
<bottoms_up37> a definite Chiaro ;)
<`Chiaroscuro> LrdThomas, that seems scary
* bottoms_up37 grins to LT, i know this about you and dont agree.. as we have discussed at an earlier date *wink*
<kathryn_kw> LrdThomas how will they be able to trust you if they have not played with you or gotten to know you well over time ?
<BernieRoehl> A question, LT -- what if the submissive feels it's important to negotiate before playing?
* bottoms_up37 clamps a hand over my mouth.. knowing the answers ;)
<slutkat> like that'll last long bottoms_up37
<bottoms_up37> lol
<kathryn_kw> :)
<canplay> lol
<shaniholly> lol
<LrdThomas> `Chiaroscuro, it prolly is scary to some. But that is the point. If they haven't taken the time to get to know me, i'll get nothing from the scene in that there is no mental connection. No mental connection is boring and i'd rather go play baseball.
* bottoms_up37 mumbles and glares at kat ;)
* slutkat smiles
* canplay plays baseball alot here
<LrdThomas> Bernie... then we don't play.
<crysania^> do most negotiate?
* BernieRoehl nods
<bottoms_up37> i think you should negotiate before any power exchange... as you get into teasing, hair pulling, etc.. you can get a bit fuddled ;)
* BernieRoehl prefers to negotiate, even if it's very informal
<kathryn_kw> So unless you know someone over time LrdThomas you won't play with them if they want to negotiate ?
<`abi> crysania ... I think most people at least make an attempt to have a basic understanding of what the expectations are
* slutkat thinks that an experienced Dominant can sense what is working and what is not working with a submissive... and can direct the scene to suit both of their needs ...
<LrdThomas> she can tell me stuff, and i',m happy to listen and i play safely, but i'm not negotiating. i will listen and take into account health issues, but thats about it.
* bottoms_up37 CONTINUES to keep my hand over my mouth ;)
<LrdThomas> kathryn_kw, that would be a fair general statement.
* slutkat advises bottoms_up37 to sit on her hands too
<slutkat> ;-)
* crysania^ lends bottoms a gag *lol*
<shaniholly> LT do you define phobias as "health issues".
<SweetMaster> :)
<kathryn_kw> well i wonder how many subs would be willing to play under those conditions ?
<canplay> has never wanted to negotiate a scene,, leaves that up to One i am trusting with my body and mind
<bottoms_up37> i think i need a couple of gags ;)
<kathryn_kw> i wouldnt.. but thats just me :)
<LrdThomas> yes, if you mean like a phobia of snakes as example shani.
<BernieRoehl> Personally, I would consider that negotiating, LT -- even if it's minimal and informal
* slutkat wavs her hand
<slutkat> ;-)
<Jaz^> i agree canplay (tee here)
<`Chiaroscuro> LT I guess if someone consents they know that they can't expect any real restraint on your part.
<LrdThomas> kathryn, it doesn't matter to me how many. I prefer the quality.
<canplay> expect?
* canplay has no expectations
<crysania^> i am afraid of the dark would want the One i was playing with to know that, as it could end a scene
<BernieRoehl> Speaking of expectations... is that something that should be negotiated as well?
<kathryn_kw> would be interesting to hear your definition of Qualtity then at some point Lrd Thoms
<slutkat> i think you're all assuming that LrdThomas will just simply go willy nilly into playing and do whatever He wishes... i doubt that is the case.. i'm sure He builds a scene with each submissive He plays with in a manner that is appropriate for each of them...
<crysania^> but checklist don't allow for those kinds of issues, that is where general conversation comes in
<bottoms_up37> it is time consuming to go over a whole checklist with someone... if the person wanting to play with you isnt willing to 'waste' that valuable play time with you.. you dont play with them, imho ;)
<shaniholly> What do you mean by "expectations", Bernie?
<LrdThomas> `Chiaroscuro, again that is the point. If they don't trust me to keep them safe, then whats the point? A sub who says "you can do this or that" is not a sub, but one that controls.
<bottoms_up37> yup about expectations Bernie... as i experienced with another couple.. things were assumed and didnt happen and feelings were hurt. to ASSUME certain play is going to happen isnt good ;(
<LrdThomas> thank you slutkat.
<slutkat> np.. just my humble opinion of course... obviously not a popular one <smirk>
<bottoms_up37> lol kat ;)
<slutkat> sit on them hands bottoms_up37
* slutkat grins
<`Chiaroscuro> LT, I'm new, so just trying to get an understanding of viewpoints, so no offense is meant in any of my questions.. It actually brings up a lot of questions in terms of whether the sub is really a sub in a negotiated scene
<bottoms_up37> i am TRYIN!!! but damn its HARD! lol
<slutkat> i know hon..i know
<BernieRoehl> Yes, expectations in terms of things like sexual intimacy, ongoing post-scene connection (bottoms' "will he call me in the morning" reference earlier, for example)
<LrdThomas> no offense taken `Chiaroscuro, this is fun. And i know my opinions aren't popular at times.
<shaniholly> Merci <S>
<BernieRoehl> And also expectation in terms of where the scene will take the submissive, on a psychological/emotional/sensual level
<`abi> of course a sub is a sub in a negotiated scene Chiaroscuro...bottom line is a submissive is ultimately responsible for her/his own safety
<shaniholly> Yikes, what if you don't know what the possibilities are to that one, Bernie?
<`Chiaroscuro> LT, kind of personal.. but would you then touch a sub sexually having not negotiated this?
<BernieRoehl> That's a valid answer, shaniholly -- but it's important that it's an answer that both partners agree on
<bottoms_up37> agreed Bernie ;)
<crysania^> expectations are hard to negotiate, they are not something another can control
<dalian> i do believe that negotiating a scene...wel...takes away from the spontaneity, magic etc...however...in that case i would certainly have to know the Dom fairly well in order to form a basis of trust...whether that is strictly by observation and/or verbal communication oer much time
<dalian> *** Disconnected
<kathryn_kw> wb dalian
<dalian> thanks
<kathryn_kw> :)
<LrdThomas> see above `Chiaroscuro. I'm not negotiaing. Sex is my option, not hers. if that is an area she can't go, i don't play. Rarely tho, do i exercise that option, because often, and particularily with a new person, sex isn't where i need her to go.
<bottoms_up37> well crys... as adults we discuss what we want from the scene and what we are prepared to deal with afterwards..even a week later at a munch. the heart doesnt have to follow but saying 'forget it, lets not discuss anything cause the heart might not follow' .. to me isnt smart
* BernieRoehl feels that it's important for a submissive to know ahead of time that sex may be a part of the scene, at the Dom's discretion
<slutkat> mutual respect would be nice afterwards
<`Chiaroscuro> LT interesting... so there is a part of you that is interested in the subs pleasure (assuming that as a sub she takes pleasure in playing this role)
* bottoms_up37 does not agree with LrdThomas's views at all on the above conversation.. its scares and worries me and the affects his views can have on new subs ;)
<crysania^> would hope if i agreed to play with someone would already have respect for that person
* slutkat smirks at bottoms_up37
<slutkat> gag didnt work huh?
<LrdThomas> np bottoms.
<bottoms_up37> nope...lol
<bottoms_up37> LT you know this already *grin* ... as we have discussed before :)
<SkyDom> I am always hugely interested in the subs pleasure....is this unusual?
<slutkat> i hope not
<LrdThomas> io doubt i should scare you bottoms, but thats your perogative.
<SweetMaster> no SkyDom..I am the same way
<`abi> I took it away from her ;)
<bottoms_up37> LT, you dont scare me cause i wouldnt play with ya with your views .. so i am safe ;)
* slutkat gets 'her' pleasure from submitting... from pleasing the Dominant... seldom does it include sex as a necessity for "pleasure" per se
<canplay> sex or not is His choice ,, not mine ,, i am open to either or i would not be there
* bottoms_up37 grabs a gag AGAIN ..stuffin it in ;)
<slutkat> lol
<kathryn_kw> but then again that will be our choice as to whether we play or not.. knowing in advance that someone eg lrdThomas doesn't negotiate.. its whatever we feel comfortable with as individuals is it not ?
* canplay wonders what bottoms will try next *giggles*
<BernieRoehl> So, we're coming up to the end of tonight's discussion
* crysania^ hands bottoms duct tape *grins*
<BernieRoehl> Are there any last minute observations people would like to make on the subject of negotiating a scene with a new partner?
<`lucius> ?!
<kathryn_kw> just using you as an example LdrThomas no offence intended
<bottoms_up37> TALK TALK TALK.. dont worry about it wrecking the mood.. take your time ;)
<SkyDom> gotta go folks...the neighborhood is waitin for me to set fire to a huge pile O' fireworks....back in a bit....
<kathryn_kw> :)
<`abi> yes Bernie....I think that "scenes" have far more chance of being successful if both partners have an understanding and respect for the expectations of the other....call it negotiation, call it discussion, call it playing telephone...just call it important
<SweetMaster> use the discussion as a build up
<kathryn_kw> oh my fireplay go for it :)
<LrdThomas> this is a discussion of how to negotiate. I gave you my views. It ain't for everyone, but it works for me. This is a discussion is all.
* bottoms_up37 smiles to LT... we both have our ways.. we both think we are right *Grin*
<BernieRoehl> And on that note, let's close the formal part of the discussion
<BernieRoehl> Thank you everyone for participating!
<SweetMaster> ty
<dalian> thank you Bernie...well done!
<canplay> you are both right bottoms ,, no thinking involved *S*
<crysania^> Thank You Bernie :-)
<canplay> thanks Bernie
<kathryn_kw> another full house :)
<`lucius> darn...I missed it
<`lucius> oh well
<`Chiaroscuro> thanks bernie
<ddesire`> thankyou Bernie <smile>
<BernieRoehl> Next week's discussion will be on Masoch (the person for whom Masochism is named), and it will be moderated by zee