June 20, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Can We Escape The Ghost of De Sade". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<kw_brit> more tumbleweed
<jewel`{F}> okay i will start by asking if we really want to escape from De Sade's Ghost
<delyssa> hmmm... active topic tonight?
<catsbrat{CM}> i don't think we can cause he was the first to "come out of the closet" with the fact he got pleasure out of hurting
<krista-F> i am far from expert on the de Sade
<krista-F> but i have read him
<krista-F> but years and years ago
<mdias98> has anyone attended a munch lately
<LadyCharlotte> I went today:)
<mdias98> wich one?
<icemaiden> kw brunch?
<mdias98> i went to the woodbridge munch yesterday
<LadyCharlotte> yes the kw one
<mdias98> where is that?
<LadyCharlotte> east side mario's in waterlooish
<mdias98> cool
<mdias98> how was it
<mdias98> anyone from the Toronto area?
<LadyCharlotte> I got alot out of it, I enjoyed the people and the conversation.
<delyssa> I'm glad you went, LadyCharlotte... was it as nervewracking as you thought it might be?
<LadyCharlotte> I have been to another one before
<jewel`{F}> okay so now that there are more of us here
<jewel`{F}> i will ask again
<jewel`{F}> do we really want to get away from the Ghost of De Sade?
<kimochi> so -- why would we *want* to escape the "ghost" of de sade?
<jewel`{F}> kimochi get out of my head you
<mdias98> what is the ghost of de sade?
<jewel`{F}> lol
<kimochi> and is ghost meant in a negative or positive way?
<kimochi> lol
<jewel`{F}> the topic of tonights discussion mdias98
<kimochi> it seems to me that the only ghost is the nonconsensuality of some of his "lewd acts"
<kimochi> other than that, he was ahead of his time
<jewel`{F}> true he didn't really care if the one he was hurting consented or not
<kimochi> he had a wonderful imagination, though
<Cassity^> imagination is the key to success
<_dove{S}> He has been labelled as a lunatic - in that light being associated to DeSade isn't necessarily good
<kimochi> well, some of my best friends are lunatics
<_dove{S}> mine too kimochi, well the good ones
<kimochi> the thing is, his "lunacy" was untried for years
<kimochi> pervert? yes ... lunatic? maybe not
<kimochi> any other input on de Sade?
<jewel`{F}> i was thinking with all the talk not so long ago about squicking the newbies
<dana^^> squicking?
<jewel`{F}> were DeSade still around i think he may even squick some of those we think are more intense now
<jewel`{F}> scaring the crap out of,
<dana^^> oh.. lol...
<jewel`{F}> squick = ewwwwwww
<Ailill> lol
<kimochi> well - perhaps jewel - although, i think the only thing that could bother me about him is if he engaged in his "stuff" nonconsensually
<`abi> which is perhaps the true definition of a sadist
<`abi> and the 'ghost' which we wish to escape
<jewel`{F}> i agree that the nonconsensuallity of his work is something that we don't follow
<kimochi> i read about him masturbating with two crosses in front of a prostitue who had pronounced her extreme belief in catholocism to him
<kimochi> veyr imaginative
<LadyNichola> kinky
<seeria> lol
<kimochi> he did that instead of beating her with a cat-o-nine tails - she didn't want a beating apparently
<LadyNichola> I think that part of the challenge of "escaping the ghost" is that most people haven't read him
<kimochi> (wierd sense of priorities)
* krista-F read him.....but years ago..can't remember much anymore
<LadyNichola> De Sade (beyond lending his name to sadism)
<seeria> I haven't read of him.. in fact tonight is the first. I have to say from watching the chat, I get the feeling this guy didn't do anything with consent.
<LadyNichola> was a seditious thinker (and acter)
<LadyNichola> not so seeria
<LadyNichola> very interesting man
<LadyNichola> was constrained by the religiosity of his times
<LadyNichola> yes... he was a kinkster
<LadyNichola> but also highly political
<seeria> And consent?
<LadyNichola> does one consetnt to the tyranny of church?
<LadyNichola> one of his questions
<LadyNichola> while he was in jail
<seeria> hmmm not sure that is a fair comparison
<seeria> he was from what time period?
<kimochi> seeria - my reference to nonconsensuality had to do with an incident that landed him thrown in prison - it wasn't par for the course for him
<LadyNichola> he _was_ in jail for sins against the curch
<LadyNichola> not sins against people
<kimochi> and whether or not it was consensual is open for debate
<seeria> k kimochi
<seeria> and the time period he was in is?
<LadyNichola> one of the things I find interesting about De Sade was that he is associated with Dominance and yet bottomed frequently
<Cassity^> Interesting why
<LadyNichola> no doubt he was a horny toad... but I think he liked the rebelliousness of kink too
<LadyNichola> kinda topping from the bottom from the top
<kimochi> again, very imaginative
<LadyNichola> he was an aristo.. which meant he could have fucked (or possibly killed) without consequence
<kimochi> wasn't he born into nobility?
* seeria is reading a rather long bio on him, thanks to cc for sending it
<LadyNichola> he enjoyed the revolutionary aspect bdsm
<mdias98> where can i get info on de sade?
<LadyNichola> a "mind fuckker"
<seeria> so the only way for him to be um "disposed" of... would be for church to step in?
<LadyNichola> no seeria
<seeria> mdias98, I can send you what cc sent me if you wish to pm me an email. txt format
<LadyNichola> the church and "political structure" were the same
<LadyNichola> so...
<seeria> this was middle 1000's? 1200ish?
<LadyNichola> he was awkward politically.... which meant jailing him on "morality charges"
<seeria> nm just found his birthdate. 1740. I see what you mean.
<LadyNichola> to bring this into 21st century terms.
<LadyNichola> Michael Moore is a writer... let's say that he had a sexual taste that was inappropriate
<spankablecyn> Part of the charges had to do with his toruture of children, 6 girls
<`abi> he would need a shower first
<LadyNichola> George Bush (pope) puts him in prison for the sexual charges
<LadyNichola> hmm... the burden of proof standard was even lower in the 18th century than it is today
<QTIP> resquiat in pace
<seeria> aye
<LadyNichola> paedophilia is repulsive across times, but De Sades problem was that he was also dangerous
<LadyNichola> caused different thinking
<spankablecyn> The very acts with children that cause most people of reason and morals to recoil in terror provided the Marquis with sensations of ecstasy: the physical and emotional domination of another and the violent destruction of youthful innocence. This ecstasy is portrayed by one of the protagonists of Philosophy in the Boudoir, who exclaims, How delicious to corrupt, to stifle all semblances of virtue and religion in that young hear
<QTIP> even after the Bastille was stormed, de Sade was not released. he was too dangerous in that he put the powers that be into satire
<LadyNichola> Wow... Nodz at qtip
<QTIP> Lady de Sade had him "committed" to a prison for the insane
<spankablecyn> He practiced BDSM without consent
<LadyNichola> not so
<LadyNichola> spanky
<LadyNichola> he _wrote_ about absence of consent
<seeria> how does a child give consent?
<LadyNichola> and in so doing, he highlighted the hypocrisy of the church and state
<QTIP> in reality, it really isn't known how much of de Sade's writings were not fiction
<LadyNichola> in the state of the times... he could have killed a commoner (with or without their consent)
<spankablecyn> They would hire girls to work in their home and later describe them as their captives
<LadyNichola> what is brilliant about De Sade is not his eroticism... but his sedition
<spankablecyn> Once the site of the local jail, the isolated castle of La Coste played host to the torment and abuse of these six girls. Within these dreary stone walls, referred to by some as a laboratory of sadism, the Marquis de Sade held sway over every moment of the girls day. While no official record of events exist, it is not difficult to delineate from his writings and former actions the type of behaviors on which Sade must have en
<LadyNichola> for gods sakes! How can you have an official record of a gang bang?
<LadyNichola> The guy was a kinky weirdo... no doubt
<Ailill> lol
<LadyNichola> it doesn't set aside the fact that he was also a gifted writer and a brilliant thinker
<tvsubbie> question...at some point in time, some thinker decided to apply DeSade's name to what, at the time by most (and still is by some today) was a sexual deviancy, something to be cured, or contained....do we as the community want to perpetuate the stigma of deviancy??
<`abi> keeping in mind that De Sade predated online journals
<Ailill> Well the greek kept rather langthy records of thier orgies so why not?
<spankablecyn> Come on it goes on now ........young girls being sent as off as domestics to be really used for sex and the sex trade
<LadyNichola> Where..
<LadyNichola> where in his works (not the weighted commentary on his works)
<LadyNichola> you can't even get a copy in a local library today
<LadyNichola> 250+ years later
<LadyNichola> I don't defend his morality... it was probably less extreme in its expression than most of his time
<LadyNichola> but I _do_ defend his politics
* sunrise- smiles.. hiya E/everyone
<LadyNichola> for some of us, the Ghost of De Sade is one that enjoins us to political dissent
<QTIP> I'll defend your right to be right, if you defend my right to be wrong, LadyNichola. ;-)
<LadyNichola> always QTIP... consistently
<kw_brit> One thing to bear in mind when we are discussing the treatment of these children is that less than 200 years ago in this country girls were married by 12
<seeria> lol
<seeria> aye true. they'd be considered adults basically soon as they hit puberty, sometimes before.
<LadyNichola> sorry guys... but it pisses Me off to see a writer villified for the wrong reasons
<kw_brit> and old maids if not coupled by 18 - 20
<QTIP> free speach was considered sedition. some like Jefferson and Franklin saw it as a requirement to liberty. "don't kill the man, kill the idea, using reason."
<`abi> do you feel that he should be villified at all LadyNichola?
<spankablecyn> Already well-practiced in the art of preying on the poorest and most defenseless whores of France, the Marquis had developed a sexual appetite for those with even less recourse than common whores -- children.
<seeria> people love scandal, especially sex related, LadyNichola, so I would expect his more brilliant writings (which I've not read) would be ignored
<LadyNichola> De Sade wasn't the best of writers... but he was imprisoned because of ideas about freedom... not because of anything else
<LadyNichola> Where are you quoting from spanky?
<LadyNichola> not fucking De Sade
<spankablecyn> Crime Library
<LadyNichola> 250 years later... it's still about innuendo
<LadyNichola> how about .....
<arhiannah> lol
<seeria> lol
<LadyNichola> My opinions are formed
<LadyNichola> by reading the source material
<spankablecyn> How about he messed with kids and it should not be negated
<LadyNichola> How about
<QTIP> proof?
<LadyNichola> READING TFB
<LadyNichola> sorry spanky... more power to you for listening
<LadyNichola> but you cannot form a really good opinion
<QTIP> spandalbecyn seems to have faith in the source...
<LadyNichola> just by reading a repeated regurgitation
<arhiannah> sorry LadyNichola, i wasn't laughing at you..it seems just so obvious to me that in order to have an informed opinion one should get their information from the source..not someone else's opinion
<spankablecyn> Why when the legal statements of children were recorded?
<LadyNichola> easily done
<QTIP> and some folks believe the lies (now substantiated) that have folks dying in Iraq
<LadyNichola> get out
<shareena> to be informed one should read many sources, not just one imo
* delyssa agrees with shareena.
<shareena> and then form an opinion
<spankablecyn> You are correct shareena
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<tvsubbie> LadyNichola, i have a question...what significance, if any, does DeSade give to our community in the present day???
<LadyNichola> His words: "Either kill me or take me as I am, because I'll be damned if I ever change..."
<QTIP> then there was Masoch
<kimochi> well, at the very least, he's given me one more idea for masturbatory fun
<QTIP> names from the past
<seeria> lol
<`abi> so... he had no limits? ... yet another ghost
* sunrise- laughs
<LadyNichola> http://neilschaeffer.com/sade/letters/index.htm
<dana^^> thank You Ma'am
<QTIP> de Sade was actually a sad character and lived a tragic life
<QTIP> most of it behind bars
<LadyNichola> In the first place, I deny it; she has been hurt only because she wished to be, and she should place the blame only on her own evil genius for everything that she takes as personal offenses made against her
<LadyNichola> < saw that on a list about 235 years later
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<spankablecyn> He went too far