June 18 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<|Karen> The topic tonight is "On the Nature of Nuture: the influence of Societal Change on BDSM"
* BernieRoehl looks around now that He's back
<BernieRoehl> I've set a channel message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using hebron.in.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "On the Nature of Nurture: the Influence of Societal Change on D/s Desires". The moderators tonight are Karen and Nocturnal. Enjoy the discussion!
<|Karen> Nocturnal and I were supposed to co-moderate, but I don't see him yet tonihgt
* fire{RB} cuddles up...hmmmm at Sir LrdTZ's feet..watches the discussion
<|Karen> so I'll do it.
* slutkat sits alone.. unhuggable n uncuddleable.. <g>
* fire{RB} made her sefl comfortable slutkat
* cybersweet smiles at BernieRoehl...thank You Sir.
* slutkat laffs at fire...
* slutkat <<--- is comfy being alone
* pebbly` sits with slutkat and gives her a big hug
<|Karen> We ask that all greetings (hugs and such) are done privately during the course of the discussion.
<fire{RB}> <---found a Dom..settled in
* slutkat grins at pebbly`
<slutkat> lol@fire
* lyxanna curls up next to LrdTZ...leaning her head on his thigh
<|Karen> A few weeks ago, the discussion was on Nature or Nurture, why are people into this stuff?
<|Karen> will people please stop the frivality, and attend to the discussion?
<bottoms_up37> nature or nuture? *confused look*
* BernieRoehl smiles and nods in agreement with Karen
<|Karen> since Nurture basically lost the discussion....one of the few in which we've had some consensus here...
<LrdTZ> "into this stuff" I'm in this because it is who and what I am.
* brat^kat nods
<brat^kat> this is who i am and what i am and society has nothing to do with it.. except prolonging me finding my *real* self
* bottoms_up37 listens...still confused
<|Karen> We thought it might be interesting to ask how growing up in this Society, and the changes that feminism, among other trends, has brought to your experience of your Nature
<|Karen> a lot of folks say that this is just who I am, like LrdTZ....but how did what you learned from Society make it easier or not to accept your nature and act on it?
* SirBear looks for his feminine side.... can't find it
<lyxanna> society hasn't brought as much to me as my life experiences has
<lyxanna> or do you count parents, prior relationships, and the such as society?
<bottoms_up37> hmmmm it is to my understanding that powerful men with alot of responsibilities sought out submission as a balance to their life... with women getting the same through feminism (working outside the home, being boss, business owners) .. wouldnt more women seek submission also?
<LrdTZ> Society had nothing to do with it. except to emphasize the fact that "normal" society does not understand us and that they don't even try.
<|Karen> a lot of younger male doms say things like they were brought up never to hit a woman, and had a hard time getting over it...that's just one example
<fire{RB}> well fire thinks it is becasue of unfulfilled needs and a drive to fulfill them
<fire{RB}> hence we come to the community
<fire{RB}> looking to grow and learn and fulfill our needs
<brat^kat> i'd hope that all males thru the ages were brought up never to hit a woman
<brat^kat> not just today
<lyxanna> again, just for a second, what do we mean by society
<LrdTZ> And I think they were brat^kat
<|Karen> well, your life experiences don't happen without your society....the people around you all the time, tv, church, government...
<|Karen> all the influences that you encounter every day...
<LrdTZ> Society is the world around us. the communities we live in the politics that we have to live with.
<brat^kat> so its not our society that has taught yunger doms not to hit
<lyxanna> by saying that they were brought up not to hit a woman, then that would be by their parents...not nescisarily society
* Kilted_One has a lot of responsibilites both at work and at home and hasnt found the need to seek out his submission!!!
<|Karen> parents are a part of Society...
<|Karen> everyone is a part of Society...
<Kilted_One> I think that every act has a balance to itself.....
<brat^kat> i'd think society tends to tell us more that perverseness isnt *nice* so to speak...
<bottoms_up37> and what about all our advances in fighting abuse? we are pro-active on it and how that affects peoples views on bdsm who dont understand its full meaning?
<LrdTZ> what we do is considered abuse to the normal society.
<bottoms_up37> lol KO... it is just something i have heard about *grin*
* Kilted_One thinks that he maybe compensating by going looking for his submissive and forgeting his side
<|Karen> do you think that more women have become FemDommes as a result of feeling empowered by feminism to accept their nature?
<`abi> I imagine you'll find your submissive at your side KO ...
<BernieRoehl> Not really, Karen. I share the view that people are who they are, regardless of social influences.
<Achilles{tr}> ..or have women who might find themselves in submission been driven away from it by feminism which tells them submission to males is evil and s gin of weakness and failure?
<LrdTZ> It is not anyone nature to except this unless this is what they are.
<lyxanna> lol, if you ask all the male submissives they will say no because there really aren't that many around
<|Karen> yes Achilles....ideas like that...
<Kilted_One> maybe social influence or acceptance will allow more to come out the closet
<BernieRoehl> Yes, and lack of acceptance in some cases will drive them even further into the closet
* brat^kat gets claustrophobic in the closet
* Kilted_One who wished that vixen was that obedient that she was by my side, thank christ for chain
<|Karen> one may be Dominant or submissive but not accept it, or act on it, Bernie...that's what I'm trying to get to...
<BernieRoehl> I think that's true, Karen.
* brat^kat thinks we've had THIS discussion before... deja vu
<LrdTZ> we don't acat on it for many different reasons Karen.
<LrdTZ> act even.
<Kilted_One> but does that change them or does it only make them more "seen"
<Achilles{tr}> Society is a rather general label for the overall influences of people outside of ourself then? Everybody else?
<lyxanna> agreed Achilless
<lyxanna> that was what i was trying to say earlier
<LrdTZ> I would have to agree with that Achilles{tr} but we are also our own society
<|Karen> how many women still internalize the idea that women are supposed to be submissive to men (an outdated idea intellectually, but still present in more traditional societies) and seek out BDSM to confirm that submission....without really being submissive...
<BernieRoehl> net split :-(
* |Karen sighs 'Net split'
<Achilles{tr}> Isn't that a rather general topic for such a short temed discussion? might some focus perhaps be of use?
<LrdTZ> I can't comment on that Karen as I'm male.
<brat^kat> focus is good...
<dalian> i think once we realize that we can coexist alongside society, but yet retain our individuality in lifestyle, whatever that is for us...we find balance within and around
<lyxanna> hold on, i don't think women are supposed to be submissive to men...i am just submissive to some ment
<|Karen> could you expand on that idea, LrdTZ? that we are each our own society?
<brat^kat> how do sub men fit in?
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps Tz was meaning more that the BDSM community is its' own society? As such... W/we influence our own growth and development.
<LrdTZ> I can try. We have a society that we call a BDSM community but in reality were a group of individually that have our own beliefs and emotions that bind with others with some of the ideas to form a comunity.
* Kilted_One kat I think they open a lil hatch and squueze inside
<LrdTZ> and I have to agree Achilles{tr} as that is mostly true.
<|Karen> that's an interesting question, kat....I've always been puzzled by sub men...but I think that's my own societal blinders...
* brat^kat looks at the hey you dom who just got frivolous and waits fer him to be chastised
<|Karen> I was brought up seeing men as the dominant force in society..
<|Karen> as a feminist, I fought it
* LrdThomas looks upon power exchange as a personal relationship, of which society has no business being involved, as long as the relationship exists in the context of societal law.
<LrdTZ> What is a feminist?????
<|Karen> as a submissive, I revel in it.
<lyxanna> and i was brought up as seeing men as equals...but i am still submissive
<BernieRoehl> That's actually a really good question, LrdTZ
<lyxanna> and i am not just a submissive with men, but also with women
<LrdTZ> But LT it does not exists in the context of societal law. it is outside that law and that we need to change.
* `abi was raised to see men as equals...and I still do ... dominance and submission is not a question of equality
<lyxanna> agreed abi
<LrdTZ> I was brought up thinking that all persons were equals.
<Achilles{tr}> BDSM is not an equation fo inequality.
<lyxanna> and anyways, why is it we are talking like it is only about femsubs and maleDoms...there are other groupings
* |Karen nods to abi 'I agree with that now, but it's something I had to evolve to....it wasn't the way I was brought up'
<brat^kat> thot we were talkin bout society?
<dalian> i was raised to believe we were equals...bit i rarely saw it in my experience
<lyxanna> are you saying Karen, that you don't see a femDomme as someone that should have control?
<|Karen> of course there's other groupings, lyxanna...feel free to bring them in...
<LrdTZ> we are brat^kat society as a whole or society as groups. that infulence other groups.
* lyxanna is trying to
<brat^kat> mm.. okee
<|Karen> not at all lyxanna....but I am not equipped to speak to experiences that I don't have.
* bottoms_up37 froze up and missed stuff ;(
<LrdThomas> my relationship is not outside the law.... and i can't comment on others. But a relationship of structured parameters wherein no rights or freedoms sanctioned by law are limited, then i don't see it as against the law.
* Kilted_One gives bu some anti freeze
<|Karen> I'd like to hear more from those who do understand FemDomme and malesubs more...
<LrdTZ> LT if you do what most BDSM couples are into then its outside the law as it is worded today, and that places you outside the societal law
<LrdTZ> I would like to find out what a Feminist is.
<fire{RB}> umm LrdThomas? i dont know what you relationship is right..but I did take a law course last semester..and well sorry to say Sir..but even with so called permission..no one has the right to hurt or injure another person..that is against the law...
<bottoms_up37> thanks KO... *Grin* ... did people catch that spousal abuse used to be accepted years ago but not so much now? so bdsm in couples is even frowned on more?
<LrdThomas> that is certainly one interpretation of the law TZ. Others have different interpretations.
<LrdTZ> Where does Society place us today??
<lyxanna> then why not bring up other "society influences" or beliefs...other than feminisim
<Kilted_One> when the vanilla public use BDSM as "content" in a film or play is it not a Domme more often than a Dom that is chosen??....do you think that is because a Male Dom is still seen negatively in their eyes where a Fem Domme is not?
<bottoms_up37> and and and...lol.. since i froze up... do people think there are more Dommes now with feminism? or should i wait to see the log?
<dalian> i agree with KO
<|Karen> persistent, aren't you, LrdTZ? fine...feminism, as I understand it, is a philosopy that women are equal in all ways to men. A feminist supports that philosophy and works to see it in the world around her/him.
<Achilles{tr}> Dommes are viewed as empowered women. Dom's as bullies perhaps?
<lyxanna> yes KO, also that it is seen as a "new" idea, and a stretch
<|Karen> that is, of course, just my opinion.
<LrdThomas> i would agree with that statement fire. And if do not intentionally hurt or harm anyone, particularily sweetone. But i suppose i could accidently slam the door on her finger, and i guess that then makes me a potential felon?
<|Karen> because churches have had a strong societal impact as well, lyxanna, and governments...
<LrdTZ> welcome to the real world Karen. All ppl are equal and those that think that they are not equal to me or anyone else is wrong, Those that see others as either better or below them are also wrong.
<|Karen> note the other conversation going on here about the legality of bdsm relationships.
<bottoms_up37> here here TZ :)
<lyxanna> that is an easy one Karen...and really not a discussion, the way the law is currently writen...any physical play that is engaged in consentual or not, it is against the law
<LrdTZ> Society did not make me it, it may have kept me from practicing it because of fear of retribution from an unfair community but it did not make me.
<|Karen> there's no need to be insulting, TZ.
<brat^kat> ?
<LrdTZ> was not being insulting Karen.
<lyxanna> weather that is the way things should be, is not the discussion tonight
<|Karen> I guess I didn't appreciate that 'welcome to the real world' comment.
* bottoms_up37 sits quietly.. i am lagged or confused or something
<LrdTZ> sorry.
<Achilles{tr}> Reality is a relative thing. Karen's reality may not be the same as Yours or Mine Tz. Is the way of people.
<lyxanna> the law is the law is the law....
<Selection> Not to be taken wrong, but I beleive men and women will never be treated the same, different needs and desires, they need to be treated equally but different, just as different people need different treatment to soothe their personalities.
<|Karen> the conversation tonight is just getting people talking about what influences outside of themselves they have felt or observed...
<|Karen> otay? I'm not preaching anything....just asking questions
<bottoms_up37> Selection.. but to treat all women one way or men another is not what you meant right? ... but to treat each as an individual?
<Selection> yes bottoms
<Kilted_One> If a man his portrayed hitting a woman is it not seen as abuse.....if a womans is portrayed hittin a man is it not seen as the man having given her reason to hit him?.....as an example of how 'nilla's still see physical striking
<Achilles{tr}> As such can also change perceptions of outside influences such as feminism, church, family... each has their own perception of what these things are.. their relative importance, etc...
* bottoms_up37 tried... i brought up our pro-active fight against abuse, more fem Dommes due to feminism, etc ;)
<lyxanna> so lets get personal instead of hypothetical...that might help with the topic at hand
<lyxanna> i am who i am because that is who i am
<LrdTZ> agree Achilles{tr} but what do we do about it. How do we get the other sections of Society to except us so that those out there that are still hidden in the closet can peek there heads out.
<lyxanna> do i feel restricted on who i share my beliefs with becaue i know some people would not agree with what i do
<|Karen> your comments on the law, lyxanna....I think you might be inaccurate...
<lyxanna> i have even experienced someone tellling me that by "being into that stuff" was putting myself down and i was worth more
<LrdTZ> Lets get back to the Society thing.
<Achilles{tr}> Ahhh, is THAT what this discussion is about? making O/our lifestyle choice acceptable to general society?
<brat^kat> mebbe we need a lawyer to outline this for us...
* bottoms_up37 has a hard time with my feminist or equalist girlfriends...who i met at an entrepenueur course... they say me being a bottom is wrong. it makes me an object of abuse *smile*
<lyxanna> now, did her ideas make me rethink who i was, or what i was doing??
<Selection> As far as the main topic goes I beleive most people are interested in BDSM, spanking jokes and candle wax is very popular , that shows that people are hipprocrits
<LrdTZ> How many ppl have hidden what they are from others????
<lyxanna> no, because i am confident and comfortable with who and what i am
<|Karen> in California, and a few states....the police can lay charges if there's non-consensual physical force going on, but in Canada, I think one person has to want to lay charges for the police to act
<Selection> I hide it
* brat^kat raises her hand
<fire{RB}> sorry Karen
<fire{RB}> that is wrong
<LrdTZ> Why do you hide it Selection
<fire{RB}> once the police are involved
<brat^kat> doesnt mean i *like* hiding it... just a necessity
<lyxanna> no karen, if they see bruising or anything like that, they (the crown) can lay charges...
<fire{RB}> it is taken out of your hands
<Achilles{tr}> I'm sorry Karen... that is incorrect. Police must arrest and lay charges whether the injured party wishes to lay charges or not.
<fire{RB}> the vitcim can speak to the Crown attorney
<lyxanna> that is canadian law
<lyxanna> the end
<LrdTZ> Hang on folks lets get back to the discussion.
<fire{RB}> and tell them they wish no charges layed
<LrdTZ> Hang on folks lets get back to the discussion.
<|Karen> thank you, TZ....
<LrdTZ> lets get back to this. Law can be discussed latter.
* lyxanna groans
<Selection> LrdTZ It is something I desire and am still new with it,
<brat^kat> i've thot about *coming out* to people but... not sure how they'd take it.. so... err on the side of safety...
<LrdTZ> I believe that telling the outside world would hurt us unless its done right. and i'm not going to tell my boss as he would fire my ass.
<brat^kat> well..actually.. my *immediate* boss knows i'm a perv.. but he's one too.. <GRIN>
<bottoms_up37> lol
<brat^kat> we're just pervs in .. different ways...
* LrdThomas is not sure why anyone outside the relationship even needs to know.
<LrdTZ> Your lucky brat^kat but what about their boss.
<glory{Mlt}> exactly LT
<brat^kat> i trust that he doesnt pass along info cuz i have as much on him as he does on me
* fire{RB} doctor knows
<brat^kat> ;-)
<lyxanna> and to keep it back on topic
<Selection> I put sex and BDSM in the same catagory, to me BDSM is foreplay not a way of life, the bedroom is no-one`s business anyway
<lyxanna> does their ideals change how you feel about what you are doing?
<lyxanna> ???
<LrdTZ> But why can't we tell them. why hide it.
* dalian wonders why anyone would want to have everyone know their personal sexual business...same as religion
<LrdTZ> Sure they do Lyx, or at least they do with me.
<|Karen> I think it's the desire to form communities that makes people share this with each other,LT
<brat^kat> it doesnt change how i feel, lyxanna...
<fire{RB}> some need to know...how do you explain flogger marks on ones back..its not like *I* planeed to get ill...
<LrdTZ> I have to agree with you on that Karen, we seek out others to tell
<brat^kat> but i'd feel a lot better if i could share this part of me that is a very integral part of who i am...
<Achilles{tr}> Is it not liberating to sit with people of a like mind and talk freely of these desires? These needs?
<LrdTZ> I wish we could as well brat^kat but we can't at this time due to outside infulances and part of that is religion, they way we were raised and law.
<LrdThomas> and we have munches karen.... composed of like minded souls. Why this need to impose or have our value system accepted by others, who prolly have no interest in any event.
* brat^kat nods to LrdTZ
<Kilted_One> Selection that maybe true for your case, but it is a way of life for me..and others...we live a 24/7 TPE lifestyle that is not just about sex at all
<Achilles{tr}> WOuld it not be even more liberating to be able to feel comfortable throughout our lives in this way?
<bottoms_up37> like gay people get frustrated keeping a part of who they are a secret to everyone.. if it was only fucking in bed, sure you can keep it quiet. but cuddling or touching for gays... or power exchange for D/s'ers... is NOT only in the bedroom
<|Karen> and in seeking out others, we open ourselves to their influence...
<Achilles{tr}> Much like being out as gay has come to be less (though not yet perfectly) of a task or trouble than it was 20 years ago.
<brat^kat> bingo bottoms
<Selection> Kilted One I understand just explaining to Lrdtz why I chose not to tell others about my interest
<`abi> as I recall...the "keep your kinky sex life to yourself" argument is the same one that kept gays closeted for generations
<|Karen> I think there's a need to feel accepted within our communities, TZ
* Kilted_One nods back to Selection
<LrdTZ> agree karen we are infulenced by outside forces all the time.
<|Karen> I have felt, and fought, almost every attempt to influence me from without....even when it turns out they were right...
<dalian> we already have a community to express ourselve comfortably in...i have no desire to share it with my boss or family because i just don't see it as being necessary
* `abi smiles to bottoms ... sorry I wasn't reading while I was typing
<bottoms_up37> lol abi ;)
<Selection> agree with dalian
<Kilted_One> why was that Karen??
<Achilles{tr}> Not everybody has the same wish or need to share, that is certain.
<LrdTZ> Then why fight it Karen
<LrdThomas> i guess i just have a different view... whether the public knows or doesn't, makes no difference to my relationship. And since i haven't the time nor inclination to "justify" my value system to others, it all becomes moot.
* |Karen agrees with Achilles (!) that it would be liberating to be comfortable with this in all of our lives...
<|Karen> why was what, KO?
* Achilles{tr} notes the date in His calendar.
<brat^kat> lol
<bottoms_up37> LT, do you understand how hard it is on some to pretend to be vanilla though? as it was for gays to pretend to be straight?
<SirLancelot`> LOL
* |Karen grins
<Kilted_One> |Karen> I have felt, and fought, almost every attempt to influence me from without....even when it turns out they were right...
<SkyDom> right on, Thomas
<Selection> LOL in the heat of sex one night I spanked a vanilla lady on the tush pretty hard, she was not impressed
<LrdTZ> I don't hide me. I just don't advertise it.
<SkyDom> I was trying to think of how to articulate that sentment....:)
<brat^kat> mebbe ya shuda used a crop Selection
<bottoms_up37> lol
<SkyDom> or crop rotaTION
<SkyDom> OOOPS
<SkyDom> ooops
<brat^kat> ask her for her preference... hand, crop, flogger
<brat^kat> pick one
<dalian> who has to pretend or hide...it is not that we all want to wear fet gear at our jobs simply because it would be uncomfortable physically...we can still be who we are...isnt it down to attitude anyways?
<LrdTZ> loves his leather.
* brat^kat swoons...
<LrdThomas> bottoms... there is the difference.... i'm dominant to sweetone, not you or anyone else in the world, and therefore it isn't important to me whether someone understands it, because the values we have in the relationship don't apply to anyone else. Therefire i'm not "pretending" to be dominant to the nila world.
<bottoms_up37> dalian... can a Top treat a bottom as they want in public? without problems?
* Achilles{tr} thinks bottoms has a very good point
<Jaz^> Excellent comment Lord Thomas
<bottoms_up37> so you do power exchange in public LT with sweetone?
<LrdThomas> bottoms, i don't flaunt it to those who might be offended.
<brat^kat> er...
<Kilted_One> CropNCane...check your pm msg
* brat^kat remembers a spoon...
<brat^kat> mmm
<bottoms_up37> as gays didnt flaunt it so they wouldnt offend people.. like kissing in public
<LrdThomas> but yes, there is pe always... just doesn't always tangibly show.
* lyxanna used to ask why it was acceptible for hetero couples to kiss i public when i probubly offended all the gays
<dalian> i think so for the most part...we seem to forget that our community is shared with many others that coexist simultaneously...and if the ppl involves wish to be more public about it more pwer to them
<|Karen> ahhh, that.....why? because I guess it has to come from within...
* lyxanna used to make people think when i asked that
<LrdTZ> loves public play.
<kathryn_kw> as to everything there is a time and a place :)
<brat^kat> mmm
<LrdTZ> agreed kathryn_kw .
* bottoms_up37 would like to be open about who i am... without problems *shrug* ... gays or heteros dont fuck in public and i dont seek that either... i just want to do what i feel is consensual like kneeling, or using Master or whatever
<LrdTZ> and you should be able to do that bottoms_up37
<bottoms_up37> should being the key word
<kathryn_kw> i think here we are treading on thin ice.. if the vanilla public are around
<kathryn_kw> are they consenting to witness a public display ?
<bottoms_up37> right kathryn... like gays had to tread carefully years ago
<kathryn_kw> a whole other can of worms me thinks
<dalian> i would have no problem kneeling or using the term Master in public...it does not matter to me what others think....its hardly likely that i would be required to do so on the job...lol
<kathryn_kw> exactly
<LrdTZ> well I do it with my subs in the right time and place bottoms_up37 and don't really care as long as its done with consent and with taste.
<|Karen> if you have no inclination to justify your value system to others, LT, then why participate at all in the community?
<BernieRoehl> Hmm... I'll fill in until Karen reconnects
<bottoms_up37> TZ, i dont want to have to constantly evaluate the environment to see if i can be myself
<freddy2> hello A/all...new guy from Oakville here
<BernieRoehl> (we've only got five minutes left anyway)
<dalian> would you be saying in context Karen, that all of us participate in the community simple to justify our lifestyle choices?
<bottoms_up37> dalian, would you use Master or Mistress at a company dinner with your partner?
<LrdThomas> karen, you pre-suppose their is a community. I make no supposition. i look upon what you describe as a community, as a sub-culture of like minded souls.
<LrdTZ> it can be in taste and done anyway bottoms_up37 and you should not have to evaluate the environemetn.
<kathryn_kw> she got bumped dalian
* dalian nods
<bottoms_up37> i dont agree TZ... you do have to
<BernieRoehl> Can't answer that one for Karen, dalian, but I think that a sense of validation is part of the reason people join *any* community-within-a-community
<LrdTZ> only if you wish too bottoms_up37.
<LrdTZ> you can be yourself and to hell with others.
<LrdTZ> just do it in good taste.
<freddy2> bottoms_up, may i speak with you ?
<bottoms_up37> in about 10 minutes ok freddy?
<kathryn_kw> ahhh but you cant because some others may have influence on your life and survival
<dalian> validation perhaps....on a small scale
<freddy2> ok, thanks
<LrdTZ> right on kathryn_kw which is the topic for the night. grin.
<bottoms_up37> good taste in whose eyes, LT? a gay man kissing a gay man at the park was considered bad taste years ago
<LrdThomas> bottoms, btw, i don't think anyone would be too terribly offended if you knelt in the park before your master if you were so inclined. Some might be though, if you were to do it in a private home, where you knew it would offened. I call that "not sweating the small stuff".
<kathryn_kw> and if we are too public and as a result antagonize the vanillas .. is it going to hurt or help us ?
<kathryn_kw> as individuals or a community
<kathryn_kw> :)
<kathryn_kw> and caused a lot of negative backlash and more raids on the bathouses etc
<LrdTZ> bathhouses = sexshops.
<bottoms_up37> if we take our time, educate and be pro-active in our fight to be accepted... as the gays achieved... i have a distant hope that one day our world can be 'out' like the gays
<kathryn_kw> whatever .. my point is that if we get too blatant publicly we can be affected adversely
* BernieRoehl agrees with bottoms, and mentions in passing that the BDSM Advocacy group's first meeting went very well
<kathryn_kw> bottoms your point is well taken :)
<SkyDom> why does it matter if yer "out" or "in"?
<BernieRoehl> Well, I see by the clock on the wall (or rather, at the corner of my screen) that it's now 10 pm
<Selection> LOL move to Hollywood anything goes there
<bottoms_up37> kathryn... sometimes change is hard... some gays that were out used to get beat up etc... slaves revolting use to get the same thing when the drank outta the white fountain, etc
<BernieRoehl> I'm going to close the log and wrap up the formal part of the discussion. Please feel free to keep chatting informally.
* Achilles{tr} notes a gay man was beaten to death last year for being gay. The fight goes on.
<LrdTZ> and will continue to go on.
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to Karen for moderating, and let's hope her computer and/or ISP make a speedy recovery.
<LrdTZ> for sure.
<kathryn_kw> if we want to make the changes we also have to be willing to go thru the garbage that we will need to to get there
* bottoms_up37 sighs to Achilles... we have generations to go yet
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion. I should have the log processed and uploaded some time tomorrow morning
<kathryn_kw> and accept responsibility for it..
<kathryn_kw> and that also can involve intense media scrutinity
<Achilles{tr}> Do your best to make it easier for the next bunch.
<bottoms_up37> yup ;)