June 16, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion


<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our regular Sunday night discussion
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Enlightening the Masses -- Educating the Public About BDSM". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> So... enlightening the masses. The original question was "how do we go about educating the general public about what it is that we do?"
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any opening thoughts
<BernieRoehl> ?
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
<Achilles{tr}> Why educate them?
<`abi> So they scare less easily
<Kemtar> but don't we want them scared?
<shoshin> Greetings A/all
<Achilles{tr}> What is it about U/us that scares them?
<BernieRoehl> People tend to react badly when they're scared
<Jean__Luc> we want to intimidate and play with individuals, I think we dont want to scare teh community..
<fiestyone> most people fear that which they do not understand
<fiestyone> anything that is "different"
<Guest29374> fear is also intriguing
<jen{SE}> i don't think we scare them, i think they just think we are weird...
<BernieRoehl> They also (wrongly) associate us with violence and abuse
<lil_kitten> "dirty sex" and "violence towards women" for starters
<Nitshill> Most people in the Vanilla world think of us an abuse in the same vein
<Achilles{tr}> OK... what do W/we ned to teach them to reduce this scare factor?
<BernieRoehl> Good question
<jen{SE}> why do we need to teach them?
<BernieRoehl> At the very least, it would be nice if we helped them understand the difference between what we do and non-consensual abuse
<Jean__Luc> that it's about consenting adults..
* jen{SE} thinks we have enough trouble teaching those who are in the community to understand and be tolerant
<ErosKeys> there is a one sided information program going on -- by the police, politicians, and the media. they get quality media time/space but the various bdsm groups rarely get the same
<Achilles{tr}> Hmm, so that means teaching them what? How to flog? Whay someone wants to be flogged? Where to buy good floggers?
<BernieRoehl> If they want to learn how to flog, or where to buy floggers, they can join us. :-)
<`abi> no, those are trade secrets ... we just need for them to know that we can still hold responsible jobs and be good parents
<Jean__Luc> nope.. all we need to do is to explain that it's between consenting adults, that there is a difference between violence, and play..
<shoshin> I find it mekans teaching them that it isn't what they have seen in pornos & skin mags
<BernieRoehl> However, the "why" of it is something that we may want to share with people outside the existing BDSM community
<Guest29374> and who teaches us?
<ErosKeys> the extreme is always told -- not the loving, caring side
<twilight_girl> I think it's too late to teach most people to be tolorant of alternative lifestyles. They have only known steriotypes all their lives. I think that teaches about alternative sexuality should begin in sex ed in elementary schools.
<BernieRoehl> People see images in movies like "Pulp Fiction" and they get a very distorted view of what we're about
<jen{SE}> i don't feel the need to share what happens in my bedroom with others
<Sweet1`> agreed jen
<`abi> more concerned about sharing the stuff that happens outside your bedroom jen{SE}
<BernieRoehl> True, jen -- the details of your sex life are nobody's business
<shoshin> but there are people who are willing to listen to other viewpoints & who want to learn
<Guest29374> then they reasearch it
<BernieRoehl> But if the police get a noise complaint and show up at your door, they could easily press charges against SE, regardless of what you may say about what was happening
<jen{SE}> but that is what we are talking about,,, no one has a problem with the D/s just the S/m and the S/m mostly happens in my bedroom or private home
<shoshin> jen, I agree, what happens behind closed doors in my private life is noone's business
<BernieRoehl> They'll see it as abuse, and arrest him
<jen{SE}> my neighbors are cops and anyone who knows me knows i am not quiet
<Sweet1`> lol
<shoshin> *LOL*
* BernieRoehl smiles, and nods in agreement -- jen is not quiet! :-)
<Sweet1`> cops really aren't interested in consensual adult stuff
<Nitshill> Good thing they work nites
<Achilles{tr}> Hmmm... so it's OK for a man to beat his wife as long as he does it behind closed doors?.. but oops, it might just be BDSM. How do they tell the difference?
<BernieRoehl> Right, but a cop who doesn't understand that it's "consensual adult stuff" will treat it as wife-beating
<jen{SE}> i think it is very easy to tell the differnce
<BernieRoehl> That's where the education comes in
<Sweet1`> i don't think they automatically do that Bernie...they do use discretion and look at what is going on
<BernieRoehl> To those of us in the community, jen, you're right -- it is easy. Not all cops are BDSM-friendly, though
<Jean__Luc> how is it easy to tell the difference?
<Sweet1`> whips and toys strewn about is generally a tell tale sign...lol
<jen{SE}> an abused person has a very differnt demeanor and are usually not tied to a crosss
<jen{SE}> lol @ Sweet1`, yeppers
<shoshin> Achilles.. what I was talking about behind closed doors is my sex life.. that I keep between my partner & I.. but what happens in the real life of BDSM, I am willing to discuss with people who are curious & want to learn
<BernieRoehl> Someone walks in, sees a naked woman with bruises, and has to make a decision. They can walk away, and potentially leave a victim to her abuser, or they can play it safe and arrest the potential abuser
<Sweet1`> and why are they walking in?
<Sweet1`> how many people have had the cops just drop by for a visit at their home?
<Jean__Luc> cause the neighbor called the cops..
<Guest29374> heard the screams of pleasure
<BernieRoehl> Neighbours phone in a noise complaint. It's happened a number of times in the states, often enough that the NCSF teaches workshops on how to deal with that situation.
<Jean__Luc> now, if the neighbour new they were a bdsm couple, and understood it was concentual, the call is never made..
<jen{SE}> how many woman are actually abused every single day that no one knows about, why are we so worried that something we do consensually, will become an issue??
<BernieRoehl> (NCSF = National Coalition for Sexual Freedom)
<Jean__Luc> hense, where we need to educate the masses about the lifestyle..
<`abi> because people continue to lose jobs and children as a result of what they do behind closed doors
<Achilles{tr}> Quite a number are jen.. sad to say.
<jen{SE}> yes, the call would still be made, excessive noise... if they are going to complain about the noise, then they are going to complaine regardless
<jen{SE}> exactly Achilles{tr}, my point, if the cops don't / can't find the real abusers why do you think they will be interested in us
<Jean__Luc> maybe.. maybe not.. depends..
<Sweet1`> perhaps it's more of a guilty conscience of those who are playing that it's more of an issue than it really is?
<BernieRoehl> And as abi points out, people lose children in custody disputes simply because of their involvement in the lifestyle
<jen{SE}> people also lose their children because they had an affair,,, point???
<lil_kitten> I think also (and sorry if this was already said, as I stepped out) that the public just tends to lump "perverts" into one category: 'rapists, child molester and "kinky weirdos" alike'
* Achilles{tr} laughs
<`abi> point is they shouldn't lose their children because of their BDSM lifestyle
<Achilles{tr}> That is such twisted logic.
<jen{SE}> and all the education in the world will not change those peoples opinion
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, lil_kitten -- and I'd just as soon not be grouped in that category
<lil_kitten> affairs are non-consentual :)
<BernieRoehl> Ah, but it will jen -- in time
<jen{SE}> no should they if they are poor, if they are fucking around , but they will... nothing has changed that
<Achilles{tr}> A part of the purpose of education would seem to be addressing the issue of confusing BDSM with such things as spousal abuse. At least I think that's where that was going.
<Sweet1`> no it won't Bernie...racism etc hasn't gone away with all the education
<`abi> the fact that those things also need to change jen does not negate the fact that education would go a long way to preventing people from losing jobs and children due to their lifestyle choices
<`abi> if only because it should be illegal to discrimate on that basis
<Sweet1`> it depends on the judge and other circumstances regarding custody issues
<Dark101> (FTP Online) Address:(dark101.dyndns.org) Port:(21) Login:(porn) Password:(porn) Speed:(DSL) Allowing:(10 users) Note:(Over 10 gigs of hardcore porn sorted into categories) ~{Polaris IRC}~
<BernieRoehl> Racism is nowhere near as bad as it once was, Sweet1`
<Sweet1`> it's not so clear cut that someone will lose their kids cuz of bdsm
<BernieRoehl> ... and education does make a difference
<Sweet1`> really???
<shoshin> and education also covers introducing reality to people's stereotypes of what BDSM is.. that all Dommes look like the ones in magazines
<`abi> but is should not even be a raisable issue Sweet1`
<Sweet1`> everything is an issue in custody battles abi
<Sweet1`> good bad indifferent
<jen{SE}> but just think if for years we have not been able to change peoples opinion of affairs, racism, poverty, what wonderful new way of educating them to BDSM do we have, we can make it known but we can't make it accepted
<Sweet1`> whatever one can use they will to try to win
<lil_kitten> well, take rape - the 16 year old and his 14 year old girl friend have sex, dad finds out and presses charges vs the 38 year old and the 14 year old neighbor - people who don't know the facts will call it a case of rape vs rape when the first is truly just a couple of kids "in love" - it's the same charge in a legal sense, but the facts are so different
<`abi> untrue sweetone ...it is not raisable that I am unsuitable to raise a child because of my colour
<Achilles{tr}> Racism is less.. it may not be gone but it is certainly not what it once was. It would seem that is what we might hope to go for with discrimintation against BDSM. Look at gay politcs. Same sex marriages and politicans coming out. It's still FAR from what it should be perhaps but it is far better than it once was. There are many similar issues.
<`abi> increasingly it is unraisable that I am unsuitable to parent because I'm gay
<lil_kitten> so put hitting someone in that context, or controlling them, etc - and without the facts, it can be very ugly...
<ErosKeys> repetition-repetition-repetition-repetition-repetition -- advertising
<ErosKeys> counter the present accepted norm
<Sweet1`> why in norm important?
<Sweet1`> is
<lil_kitten> the biggest problem with educating the public though, is that there is no way to sugar coat what we do and call it the truth - some of it is very scary if you can't imagine how one could enjoy it
<lil_kitten> that's IMO of course
<ErosKeys> the misconcetion is the norm -- change the norm through repetition
<jen{SE}> How do you avoid outing people by association, it may be my choice to be out, but not SE's
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, lil_kitten... but it is possible to tell people just as much as they need to know without overwhelming them
<jen{SE}> where is the concensuality in outing myself if i out others in the process
<lil_kitten> true *nods*
<lil_kitten> but it's the vague details that put us in a bad light in the first place
<jen{SE}> very true lil_kitten, i will never learn to like lizards no matter how much some one tells me they are cute and not slimy,
<BernieRoehl> Some people can afford to be more "out" than others, but as long as *some* people are, we can speak out against the misconceptions
<lil_kitten> so finding the happy medium is a task that is larger than it seems
<ErosKeys> the extreme is ALWAYS given as the norm in the bdsm community -- change that -- show that there are softer sides -- accepted my many -- practiced by many
<shoshin> Bernie, I am finding opportunities to do that, to give people a bit of information and then give them the resources to find out more for themselves so they absorb as much as they can at their own pace
<Sweet1`> why is the public's perception so important?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I've had good success with that as well, shoshin
<lil_kitten> but ErosKeys - it's important that the not-so-soft sides not be seen as "bad" either
<BernieRoehl> The public ultimately shapes the views of policitians, police, judges, the media...
<Sweet1`> other than the law enforcement being able to tell the difference in a noise disturbance call, what difference does it make if all one's neighbours learn about bdsm?
<ErosKeys> true lil_kitten -- but thats the ONLY side being given by the powers
<jen{SE}> if we try to sell it to the public all we can sell them is the water downed varitey, S/m will never be seen as acceptable
<BernieRoehl> I know a lot of people who accept the concept that gay couples should have equal rights. And they accept that without having to know the details of what gay couples do in bed together.
<jen{SE}> i find we are already so afraid to squick newbies that we try to control our public parties, if we also now start worrying abou joe public, what will happen to our culture then...
<Achilles{tr}> We have a culture?
<shoshin> but one can't change the perceptions of the predominant culture, one can only offer information, basically to people one on one & only if they have a desire to learn
<ErosKeys> ok --- why are extreme sports accepted -- where people regularly get hurt -- hospitalized but thats ok?
<ErosKeys> its perception
<jen{SE}> *lol*, some of us are cultured *grins*
* BernieRoehl agrees with shoshin
<Sweet1`> it goes back underground jen
<jen{SE}> where it looks like is the only place S/m will belong or can survive
<shoshin> ErosKeys, I think that goes back to Ancient Rome.. to the arena, to Spain & bullfights
<BernieRoehl> There's always the great debate -- "safety in the darkness" or "safety in the light"
<Achilles{tr}> So the suggestion is that open, public 'campaigns' be discarded in preference to one on one sort of word of mouth education?
<lil_kitten> You can tell people that D/s can be done lovingly, gently, generously, etc - same with SM - "just a little bit of spice" but the public KNOWS about all of the really hard core stuff already through various media - giving them the BDSM-lite lecture is pointless - they have no reason to believe it because they know there is all of this other stuff they've heard about
<BernieRoehl> I'm very much in the "safety in the light" camp. Trying to hide underground will just prove to people that we're doing something wrong
<jen{SE}> we talk about safety of being able to play freely, the more you bring it to the public eye, the less freely we will be able to play
<Sweet1`> public parties are already going that way
<jen{SE}> no knife, no needle, no blood, no nudity, no etc. etc...
<Sweet1`> yup
<jen{SE}> feather dusters is all that will be left
<Achilles{tr}> So jen... it shouldn't be brought to the public view? It should stay underground?
<Sweet1`> yup
<`abi> quite frankly, I think the public can handle the hard stuff ... as Eroskeys points out, society is very accepting of alot of extremes if the perception is based on fact and not misconception
<jen{SE}> yes
<shoshin> jen *g* you haven't met my feather dusters..
* lil_kitten wants to see a "talking about BDSM" video :)
<shoshin> they can get pretty ouchie
<jen{SE}> our own community can't handle the hard stuff abi...
<MistressAnne> i agree jen
<Sweet1`> agreed
<`abi> our own community is often less accepting than the general public in many regards jen
<BernieRoehl> Working on one, lil_kitten
<ErosKeys> the hard/extreme bdsm is seeing as uncaring -- it isn't being linked to the beginnings of how people bet into this... the softer sides and progress to other practices ... you don't start driving at 100 mph with a learners permit
<Sweet1`> well, if the community can't deal with it, how does anyone expect nillas to?
<jen{SE}> *lol*, ErosKeys my introduction to BDSM involved every hard toy in the book..... i could not tell you when i started what soft was
<jen{SE}> soft does not have to exist
<Sweet1`> lol, ummm, i think that's why the accident rate among the young is so high ErosKeys
<jen{SE}> does not mean it is not carin
<`abi> because the whole idea of 'society' is to protect the rights of people to live in a wide variety of ways
<lil_kitten> abi - there is acceptance, and there is being hellbent on the downfall of another... in the community itself, there are often people who look down on those who don't fit into their tidy definition, but in the public, there are those who view us as a threat to their happy shiney little world
<`abi> a community on the other hand is designed to create a more exclusionary environment ...it's the whole purpose
<BernieRoehl> I'd like to gently nudge the discussion in a slightly different direction. Given that at least some people will be working to educate the public about BDSM, what is the best way to go about it?
* lil_kitten offers to do BernieRoehl's video editing *smile*
<Achilles{tr}> Coupons for free floggings in the papers.
<BernieRoehl> I may just take you up on that, lil_kitten!
* BernieRoehl chuckles @ Achilles{tr}'s suggestion
<shoshin> I practice the public education about the lifestyle on a one to one basis
* jen{SE} is heading to bed to see if i can educate my neigbors *lol*
<lil_kitten> lol - knock yourself out
* Trufriend checks her paper for coupons
<lil_kitten> slowly...
<ErosKeys> its all a media game with the poilce, social workers, and politicians leading the way
<Nitshill> No media paper would ever print such coupons
<BernieRoehl> So how do we capture the momentum in the educational space?
<lil_kitten> in a very direct way that can't be twisted around by those with no interest in learning to make us look bad :(
<Trufriend> all in the wording Nitshill....all in the wording
<lil_kitten> NOW would :)
<Nitshill> Point taken Trufriend
<ErosKeys> the first step is to review all present materials --- is it public friendly?
<BernieRoehl> The approach that seems to work best (oddly enough) is to keep things light and slightly humourous. Even choice of words is important -- "Sadomasochism" is a scary word. "Kinky" is a fun word.
<lil_kitten> BernieRoehl - I have noooo idea *sigh*
<Sweet1`> what public are we talking about? putting an ad in the toronto star or a 60 sec spot on ctv?
<Achilles{tr}> All those marketing ads out there right now with BDSM motifs.. are those good or bad?
<`abi> if anyone has seen the flyer produced by ACT in Toronto, I'd say that wide distribution of such materials is a very fine place to start
<ErosKeys> and yes -- make mild kinky fun and accepted
<lil_kitten> well, perhaps addressing just that Bernie - "why is sadomasochism such a scary word?"
<Sweet1`> depends on your audience Bernie
<shoshin> i find having web sites like ehBc provides a good resource to point people to.. as well as having munches to show them we don't walk around 24/7 in leather, swinging whips & chains
* Achilles{tr} agrees that kinky is fun
<lil_kitten> dispelling the myths and fears of the general public is as important as telling people what it is truly about
<BernieRoehl> Not sure what to make of those ads, Achilles{tr}. But they do show that the public is at the very least *aware* of what it is that we do, and not so hostile towards it that advertisers would stay away
<ErosKeys> there are many sex education materials that explain mild bdsm kinky things as fun for lovers -- loving bondage, blinfolds, icecubes and feathers...
<ErosKeys> use that as the starting point
<Achilles{tr}> So... the advertising tends to address BDSM in a 'funny' manner such as cleaning women in S&M gear whipping the furniture clean to address one item. Is this going to dispel fears?
<shoshin> Bernie, responding to groups like the ones at the U of G with a light presentation, demystifying the lifestyle seems like a good idea as well
<ErosKeys> quote those materials by doctors and other education professionals, sex thereapists
<BernieRoehl> Yes, shoshin, that sort of education works very well, in part because the group we're educating is already fairly open and accepting by nature
<lil_kitten> I mean, if you're making a video BernieRoehl - I've seen people rent halls at Universities to show films on everything from Hitler to pot, and this is probably quite effective - I think accompanying something like that with a Q & A afterwards is a rather inexpensive way to at least break into that part of the public that is willing to take the initiative to learn something
<ErosKeys> use the accepted professions as allies
<`abi> I think that's a good point Bernie ... the place to start is with people who are at least receptive ...let the ripples spread from there
<shoshin> yep, a video with realistic depictions, targeted at groups that have expressed interest would be one resource
<BernieRoehl> There's also a lot to be said for simply coming out about being kinky to a few select vanilla friends. Raising awareness, one friend at a time.
<Sweet1`> generally it's not those who are receptive that need the educating
<ErosKeys> you have to changethe medias lust for the extreme -- the ratings game -- give them the true
<`abi> no Sweet1`, but they are the place to start, it's called building a foundation of support
<BernieRoehl> There will always be a hardcore group of people who will never accept us -- the religious right, for example. However, most people aren't that set in their views.
<shoshin> Sweet1, but if you educate one receptive person, & they are talking to others, that teaching gets passed on
<`abi> and besides...they're way scarier than we are
<Sweet1`> isn't that what's already in place having a 'community'?
<Achilles{tr}> Yeah... the church has some historical issues about crosses. TOuchy, touchy.
<Sweet1`> and we can't agree on what is truly bdsm, or anything else..so how are the others to be educated...by whose standards?
<`abi> the community is the beginning of the foundation yes Sweet1` ... the idea is to build on it ...and you don't start building on it with the bricks from the top of the pyramid
<ErosKeys> yes -- word of mouth -- one at a time is good.. is more persuasive than mass media -- but its slower
<Sweet1`> again it goes back to why and if it really needs building abi
<shoshin> Achilles.. it isn't the cross, they just want us to have historical realism... nails
<shoshin> *LOL*
<`abi> I believe it does Sweet1`
<Sweet1`> i don't
<Sweet1`> and that is my point
<`abi> what is your point?
<Sweet1`> we aren't united in this, and whose standards then get taught to others?
<Sweet1`> because you feel that it should be out, you out all those who are here
<`abi> we share commonalities as a community
<Sweet1`> and all of us do not want that exposure
<`abi> anyone who doesn't want exposure doesn't get exposure
<BernieRoehl> There are still gays who remain in the closet. And that's fine.
<`abi> the point is to try to create an environment where people can live without fear of exposure
<shoshin> educating isn't necessarily "outing"..... it is raising awareness and acceptance
<ErosKeys> thats right Sweet1` -- we are not united in this -- we have people who practice only soft bdsm and those who practice "extremes" -- and many don't see eye to eye as the definition of bdsm
<shoshin> when i talk to people about it, i don't use names.. i use situations
<`abi> example... I have the right as a woman in Ontario to go topless in the street .. I choose not to, but I'm pleased as hell that people don't get thrown in jail for doing it any more
<lil_kitten> so then we reflect that in educating - that BDSM is many things to many different people... just like sex/love/family or any other element of life
<ErosKeys> just like many levels of bdsm -- there are many variances in the definition
<Achilles{tr}> Does educating the public require a legalese type definition to reduce their fear?
<shoshin> and that is part of educating... expressing the continuum(sp?)
<lil_kitten> that's why it's important that if any concrete educational material is produced, that it is VERY diverse
<ErosKeys> ands that it explain the deversity in bdsm
<Sweet1`> how do you educate what you can't explain or define?
<ErosKeys> not just the one extreme thats been given to the public for 30-40 years
<`abi> yes, shoshin, I'd say so ... if you think about what PRIDE parades have become ... they have gone from being an 'extreme' expression of the gay lifestyle, to something which expresses the spectrum, including parent's groups
<Achilles{tr}> Do i need to understand how two women enjoy making love in order to accept that they should be free to do so?
<shoshin> Sweet1, if you speak from your own experience and understanding, while letting the person know there are other levels and ways of living it out that they can explore
<ErosKeys> you include in the definition exampes of the soft and hard, the loving and caring, the safety and the trust, the agreements and the safeguards
<lil_kitten> no - defining BDSM is like defining "a relationship" the point is that it needs to be explained that BDSM is a term that applies to many variations, that BDSM itself doesn't explain anything - it's just convenient
<ErosKeys> and if asked --- say yes -- there are the 1-2 percent that abuse the bdsm to their own twisted gains -- just as in vanilla
<Sweet1`> shoshin, i have no interest in educating the public at large, those who are interested in learning about will find it, as did you and everyone else
<shoshin> Sweet1, I don't want to educate the public at large either, that gets into consentuality, but if someone finds me & asks questions, i answer them, thus providing education
<`abi> I'd just like them to find something that they didn't have to be afraid to be a part of
<Sweet1`> why are you afraid to be part of this?
<`abi> because of the implications that it could have in their lives as a result of a society that doesn't accept it
<BernieRoehl> We're not -- but there are people who are afraid, because they misunderstand what it's all about
<shoshin> and because they have the fear of being made to do something or experience something they have concerns about
<ErosKeys> we -- as indiviuals don't have to play the educators -- we have a group here -- many in ontario -- they need to get together (if that is the decision) to educate
<Achilles{tr}> I suspect there would always be 'variations' that would be too much for some. But the general concept of a BDSM based realtionship might be something that could be less feared by the public. What floggers I use, the idea that knives might be involved or candle wax is not so important as an understanding of Safe/Sane/Consensual perhaps?
<Sweet1`> it just seems to me that many are just looking for outside approval, that what they are doing is ok, instead of being ok with it themselves
<`abi> nope, not approval ... acceptance ... there's a difference
<Sweet1`> not really in this case abi
<`abi> I don't give a damn who approves and doesn't ... I do care that I be allowed to live my life my own way
<shoshin> yep abi, i agree
<`abi> that's a pretty big difference
<Sweet1`> cuz what happens behind closed doors in a private consenting relationship doesn't need to be accepted by anyone other than those involved
<fiestyone> im with you abi
<lil_kitten> Sweet1` - some of those people will never be happy, regardless of *what* it is they are doing... some of them simply cannot figure out how to validate themselves
* BernieRoehl agrees with abi
<shoshin> my kids are grown, I didn't out myself to get their approval, but to let them know I accept the way they choose to live & want the same respect from them
<ErosKeys> how can you be left alone -- if you don't have appoval? -- specially with the slanted media stories
<lil_kitten> for others, it's holdovers of societal influence and how they were raised - like masturbation being dirty or wrong, and they just need something as simple as peer support...
<Sweet1`> that's fine, we have that in place already, it doesn't need to go to the general public
<ErosKeys> the neighborsw calls the police for a noise compliant and then there goes the "approval"
<`abi> lol...lil kitten, I think peer support for masterbation makes it group sex :)
<Achilles{tr}> ..or perhaps they just don't want to lose their jobs becasue their flogger was seen in their car trunk by a coworker?
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<lil_kitten> with BDSM - it's a mix of the two... for god's sakes, half the world is pressured to believe that sex for anything other than reproduction is wrong..
<lil_kitten> lol - not if it's just being talked about, abi :)
<ErosKeys> true lil_kitten
<Seville{s}> generally sex is alright for married couples as long as they don't do it standing up since it could lead to dancing
<BernieRoehl> Well, we're into the final two minutes of tonight's discussion
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any last-minute comments on how to educate the public?
<arhiannah> go on Final Round?
<lil_kitten> do more than sit here talking amongst ourselves about it!
* arhiannah winks at Bernie
<ErosKeys> offer politicans a sample -- grin
<shoshin> one on one
<fiestyone> tie em down.and tell em to listen up
* BernieRoehl smiles at arhiannah
<Achilles{tr}> Sure... figure out why you want to educate them. Figure out what you need to pass on to achieve that end THEn figure out how to go about it.
<`abi> create your own ripple wherever you can
* BernieRoehl nods at Achilles{tr}
<ErosKeys> good one Achilles{tr}
<shoshin> good way to put it abi
<BernieRoehl> Well, on that note I'm going to close tonight's discussion log
<BernieRoehl> Please feel free to continue chatting informally
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated!
* Trufriend feels she can now say hi to everybody! lol
<BernieRoehl> I'm going to leave channel to process and upload the log
<fiestyone> hello Trufriend
<BernieRoehl> See you all later....
<ErosKeys> hello Trufriend
<shoshin> I finally got in..... the topic interested me.. is a good one
<lil_kitten> hi Trufriend :)
<lil_kitten> bye BernieRoehl
<shoshin> bye Bernie Sir
<naughtyvickie> bye Bernie