June 15, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Being a Switch". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<`abi> yes, there was a post today that said it was sold out ... but a few possible cancellations may be coming
<Lady_Meadows> ahh...well that will teach Me for procrastinating
<`abi> so...any switches present?
* `abi repeats the question for the new arrivals ... any switches present?
* drauma{MzTyger} raises hand, mm, switch in training count?
<`abi> sure
<`abi> can you learn to be a switch?
<Lady_Meadows> I have a question about switching....does it suggest that you are both Dom/sub? or that you are Dom/ bottom or top/Sub
<drauma{MzTyger}> being one, well, I dunno bout that, but, using the tools... sure
* Lady_Meadows taps fingers on watch...wow I'm usually the one walking in late
<`abi> I have seen instances of both Lady_Meadows
<`abi> some people who respond differently to different people
<drauma{MzTyger}> I am not sure one can be both submissive and Dominant simultaneously, I can see elements of both in one scene, but hard to imagine the mind set that would involve
<`abi> and others, who may be Dom, but enjoy the physical sensations associated with bottoming
<Lady_Meadows> I've tried to be submissive...but it just doesn't work for Me...however I have bottomed in some instances and gotten great sexual pleasure from it
<drauma{MzTyger}> I envision a multi-person scene of course
<Kenjiro> submission is not necessarily bottoming and visa versa
<drauma{MzTyger}> nods
<Lady_Meadows> yes I agree Kenjiro which is why I seperated them in My earlier question
<Kenjiro> understood. it was for the gallery
<`abi> so what kind of headspace do you experience when you bottom Lady_Meadows?
<Lady_Meadows> hmm a very sexually charged lost in the moment sort of thing
<drauma{MzTyger}> do you enjoy pain as a bottom Lady_Meadows
<Lady_Meadows> it has only happend a couple of times and always starts after a highly sexed night
<`abi> but it doesn't extend outside of the perimeters of the scene
<Lady_Meadows> as in after the scene?
<`abi> yes
<Lady_Meadows> no never
<`abi> I think that is the difference between a Domme who bottoms and a switch
<Lady_Meadows> nods
<Lady_Meadows> I though for a while that it was just a matter of tuning into that bottom space and nurturning it to grow outside of the scene
<Lady_Meadows> but although given best efforts, the domme in Me would not allow it
<drauma{MzTyger}> even as as submissive I have been unable to find pleasure in pain itself, which has limited my tolerance for that; sensation play is quite a different story tho, that I find great pleasure in
<`abi> I suppose it's possible, but I think that processing sensation is different from 'relating' in a Dominant and/or submissive way
* Lady_Meadows nods in agreement
<cynful{G}> Hi A/all
<cynful{G}> sorry habbit
<earl{MS}> `abi, what do you mean by relating in a Dominant/submissive way?
<`abi> I'm thinking about the way that two people interact earl
<`abi> and I think it's possible for someone who has a Dominant nature, to still enjoy the sensations associated with bottoming
<`abi> but without achieving a 'submissive' headspace from the experience
<earl{MS}> `abi, can they change the way they interact and still be honest
<`abi> but there are also people, the ones I would call switches, who can 'relate' submissively or Dominantly to different partners .. and very occassionally with the same partner
<ravenswolf> depending on the occasion and the 'vibes' of the time
<drauma{MzTyger}> when I coach a music group I have to be dominant, in a vanilla sort of way, but still
* `abi nods to ravenswolf
<ravenswolf> i'm that way a lot - my head space depends on the people i'm with and the way i interact with them
<drauma{MzTyger}> when MzTyger joined me at my work, we were on my turf, and I found it delightful to be able to show her how some things were best done
<drauma{MzTyger}> with the utmost of tact of course
<`abi> and then there is probably yet another group of people who can roleplay Top and/or bottom and enjoy the temporary headspace of those orientations ... just sort of general kink
<drauma{MzTyger}> role reversal is a bit of fun in itself
<MasterGuny> in all my years I have seen few true switchs those I have amaze me
* cynful{G} was born a switch, I know of too many switches in the closet, especially the men. Switches are treated like the bisexuals in the gay and lesbian circles
<`abi> do you feel like there is a certain scorn or judgement cynful{G}?
<cynful{G}> Yes
<MasterGuny> I can only go by my own experiances but have never felt that way about true switchs
<`abi> any thoughts on why that might be cynful{G}?
<knicker> Guny> what would you consider to be a "true switch"?
<cynful{G}> It is also assumed that any Dom I am with would be one as well
<drauma{MzTyger}> if oneconsiders D/s aspects of daily vanilla life, one finds oneself in a continuum, one is not always Dominant or submissive
<MasterGuny> one that truely enjoys both aspects in their own right
<cynful{G}> Like I said, we considered, not true, confused, playing ect ect
<ravenswolf> have run into the confused opinion on more than one occasion
<drauma{MzTyger}> one old school Dom of my acquiantance considers switches to be confused, incapable of being either fully submissive or fully Dominant
* `abi makes note ... do not ask cynful{G} to make up her damn mind
<cynful{G}> There is a challange with being with a switch to some it makes us more alluring
<subcdn> would a Dom/me tend to naturally make suggestions while bottoming where a swich or sub would just accept what was happening
<cynful{G}> The most advice given to a switch.......Don't tell
<drauma{MzTyger}> cats are often switchy, like to be petted sometimes, not others
<ravenswolf> lol thought that was an overload of endorphins
<drauma{MzTyger}> maybe so, but ware those claws...
<cynful{G}> Strange how we can have Pansexual events and mix D/s with Goth events but mention your a switch....and you get "the look"
<MasterGuny> the only problem that I see with switchs is the fact they are hurt by players that use the excuse Im a sawitch just to get laid
<drauma{MzTyger}> ?
<krista-F> you need an excuse??
<drauma{MzTyger}> LOL
<cynful{G}> There are so many wanna be Doms/Dommes and Subs are there not?
<MasterGuny> no but the switchs stick out like a sore thunb that calls all others into question
<cynful{G}> I just know that from a very young age I roleplayed both sides...captor/captive ect ect
<MasterGuny> and more on the part of a male
<cynful{G}> No they don't like I said many are in the closet and would not admit it to a group
<drauma{MzTyger}> men are expected to dance the tightrope these days, they must be stoic, but also sensitive...
<MasterGuny> I find it more predominant on the adds than I do at a munch or party level
<cynful{G}> Male Switches are looked apon as weak by Doms
<earl{MS}> cynful{G}, weak?
<`abi> and how are they looked upon by submissives cynful{G}?
<MasterGuny> I don't I am amazed when I watch them
<knicker> Guny> there are so many wannabe's who are just out for sex they shouldn't really be held responsible for the ones who are switches...
<cynful{G}> I only know what switch males have told me
<drauma{MzTyger}> and, admit to a Domme that you are a switch, and you risk a very cold shoulder if she prooves Fem-Domme
<earl{MS}> `abi, this one has two problems with switches
<MasterGuny> but the fact is they seem to give switchs a worse name than players pretending to be Dom etc
<cynful{G}> Being a switch is tricky thing sometimes, sometimes you get to beat ass, sometimes you get beat for trying
<cynful{G}> lol
<MasterGuny> I love watching them at parties to see whether they beat or get beat...you just never know
<cynful{G}> When I go to an event I know what mood I am in before I dress
<drauma{MzTyger}> has that never changed while at the event cynful?
<earl{MS}> cynful{G}, but do others?
<cynful{G}> Never
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would find myself changeable depending on partner
<drauma{MzTyger}> in response to that partners needs
<ravenswolf> me also - i can be in a group of people some of whom i am dominant to some not - it can get veryyyy cofusing sometimes
<MasterGuny> I know a couple that come to the parties they take turns all night on the equipment..I am amazed everytime I watch them
<cynful{G}> I am sorry I have missed them, MasterGuny
<MasterGuny> they are truely amazing
* drauma{MzTyger} imagines a game of strip poker between a group of switches...
<drauma{MzTyger}> kinky strip poker that is
<cynful{G}> I can't tell you how many men have whispered to me......I am a switch but would NEVER admit it in public or on line in D/s channel
<drauma{MzTyger}> do you admit it yourself cynful?
<cynful{G}> I am here
<drauma{MzTyger}> to them I mean
<knicker> i found when i finally admitted i was switch after being "just sub" to people i knew, some of them jumped at the chance to say they never beleived i was sub and that i could only be Domme.
<knicker> it was rather silly IMNSHO
<drauma{MzTyger}> perhaps your sharing that about yourself triggers that in them
<cynful{G}> It is hard when joining a new group to come right out of the gate and say you are a switch
<cynful{G}> because you get the cold shoulder
<drauma{MzTyger}> sometimes it is harder to suppress your inclinatino to be a very strong subby
<cynful{G}> It is better to let people get to know you first
<motoki> do you people find that most are switches, or are most either sub or Dom/me?
<drauma{MzTyger}> this may well be akin to the bi-sexual thing motoki
<motoki> how so?
<cynful{G}> I think with all, like my self they favor one side more but like both
<drauma{MzTyger}> many gays view a bisexual with suspicion
<cynful{G}> Myself I am mostly bottom
<cynful{G}> exactly
<drauma{MzTyger}> some think sexuality is a continuum for most people, some being srtongly polarized, others less so
<cynful{G}> subs reject you cause your not truely submissive....Dommes reject you cause your not truly Domme
<motoki> well, i think i'm one of the "strongly polarized" ones
<drauma{MzTyger}> those who are polarized strongly see themselves as gay or lesbian, and think of the rest of the world in black/white terms
<motoki> oh, i don't think of the rest of the world in black/white
<motoki> i just feel very sub in this lifestyle and haven't yet pictured myself any other way
<drauma{MzTyger}> too many metaphors
<drauma{MzTyger}> sorry
<earl{MS}> cynful{G}, do not know about other subs, but this one thinks differently, once this one relates to someone as equal it is very difficult for this one to view them any other way
<knicker> earl> how do you mean "equal"?
<cynful{G}> You need not
<earl{MS}> as another sub
<MasterGuny> I know I am Dom cannot be any other way..but I get so tired of Im Dom but I'll switch if it gets me laid....that is the stigma attached to a true switch
<cynful{G}> I would not force switching on anyone
<cynful{G}> I comes from respect, but then some like that aspect of a chalange
<knicker> earl> and as Dom/me or switch they woulnd't be equal?
<drauma{MzTyger}> funny, MasterGuny, I view it the other way round, I think of myself mainly as submissive, it is being a Dominant that is my other side, but not the usual one
<cynful{G}> same here
<MasterGuny> I mentor a couple of subs on different lists and it is absolutly constant
<cynful{G}> I have not met a switch that feels 50/50
<krista-F> does this mean.....if i switch....ill get lots of sex??
<earl{MS}> knicker, in their sub mode they are, and once this one relates to anyone as sub to sub, this one can not see them as Dom/me
<motoki> lol krista
<MasterGuny> no krista-F most see it as a player so they get none..that is the stigma a true switch has to put up with
<krista-F> ahhhhhhhh
<cynful{G}> I read that good Dom would switch at least once to get the other perspective
<krista-F> knew there'd be a catch some where
* motoki smiles
<drauma{MzTyger}> I have seen much literature that sugests a good Dominant has to experience what they are dishing out in some degree to understand it properly
<cynful{G}> I believe I read that in the Dom Handbook
<MasterGuny> not true cynful{G} I tried to 20 years ago..there is absolutley no way I would sub ever period!!!!
<motoki> drauma - that doesn't mean a Dom becomes a true switch though
<drauma{MzTyger}> but that does not always mean they must expereince being submissive,for some that simply isnt possible
* motoki nods
<drauma{MzTyger}> one example is for wax play, some Dominants will place their own hand between the submissive and the wax source on occaision to test its temperature, in this case always hotter to the Dominant than to the submisisve
<cynful{G}> When you have a 3 way with two subs and one becomes Alpha......has she switched?
<drauma{MzTyger}> depends on how the submissives relate to each other I would guess
<`abi> depends ... were there grapes?
<drauma{MzTyger}> grapes?
<MasterGuny> thats not submitting thats knowing what you are doing same as trying nipple clamps etc to see what they will do..that it not submitting thats doing what we need to for some things
<drauma{MzTyger}> *puzzled look*
* motoki agrees
<drauma{MzTyger}> not saying it is submitting
<drauma{MzTyger}> I think that sort of thing may be the origin of the Doms must experience submission myth
<MasterGuny> no I have heard that ever since I started..mostly from switchs LOL
<drauma{MzTyger}> nods
<drauma{MzTyger}> I heard it from the start too, from another switch of experience
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<ravenswolf> i like to have things done to me before i do them to someone else - gives me an idea of what i'm inflicting intensity etc
<cynful{G}> I accept Dom/Dommes and Subs and respect them and what they believe, what works for them
<MasterGuny> unfortunately do to the stigma players have put on true switches they do have a battle to prove they are real and that is very unfortunate
<drauma{MzTyger}> well, the existance of 'players' places a lot of strin on everyone
<drauma{MzTyger}> strain
<cynful{G}> I don't think switches should be grouped in with those playing dress up seeking a different night on the town
<drauma{MzTyger}> but, one has to allow for newbies to get sorted out too
* motoki nods
<MasterGuny> but unfortunately for every true switch out there..there are thousands of players on the prowl
<ravenswolf> that's true whether your Switch - Dom/me or sub
<cynful{G}> There are many wanna bes ....Doms/Dommes subs.....
<shareena_> i agree ravenswolf
<shareena_> and some that don't want to be anything but a HNG
<MasterGuny> yes but it seems its the switchs that get the worst of it
* knicker-less agrees about the wannabes
<cynful{G}> I don't see any difference, your either like that or just out playing
<cynful{G}> to say only switches do that is unfair
<drauma{MzTyger}> soem HNG's learn, grow up
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<cynful{G}> Don't group me in with the vanilla drooling in the corner