<trufriend> well folks, i want to welcome everyone and thank you for coming to discussion this evening

<trufriend> tonight we are asking the question.....submission, is it a gift?

<trufriend> if i can ask now that we refrain from the usual greetings until the discussion is over

<trufriend> from the subs present, how many of you do feel that your submission is a gift?

<trufriend> and from the Dom/mes, how many of You feel You are receiving a gift?

<jalyn> i certainly do...i give it to whom i choose to submit to freely

<trufriend> why do you consider it a "gift" though?

<Actonivus> I view it as a shared experience

<trufriend> what makes our submission a "gift"?

<jalyn> because it is not something i would give to just anyone on any level

<trufriend> "gift: something given to show friendship, affection, support"

<jalyn> you are giving someone a gift of yourself that no one else can have or touch...something far too deep

<trufriend> so if a Dom/me is willing to show you support in some way, you return with your gift of submission to Him or Her?

<willing1> considers it a gift to himself, as I get a great deal out of the relationship!

<trufriend> to what degree are you willing to show this gift?

<jalyn> no, they in turn must earn that gift of exchange

<trufriend> how do They "earn" it?

<trufriend> is not their support of us as submissives a way of "earning" that gift....and if They must earn it, is our submission truly a gift??

<Kilted_One> You can call it what you will, but serious relationships having a "sharing" both ways. You could call it a gift for want of a better term

<willing1> and one could say it's an exchange of gifts

<^brandy> i think "gift" is another word for "trust"...with various level of that trust...

<jalyn> yes, it can't be solely one sided

<willing1> something given & something received

<trufriend> what i'm getting at KO is that a gift is something given with no strings or requirements needed....given out of admiration, adoration or whatever......not something that is "earned"

* angel{A} agrees completely with Kilted_One

<trufriend> do You "earn" a birthday "gift"???

<jalyn> a Dom/me giving support may grant a level of respect but that doesn't earn the gift

* Ruffles^ thinks maybe for want of a better term "gift" is ok..but ... I am Domming because I love to do it..and maybe I am presuming too much but I think the sub submits because he/she desires it as well

<trufriend> that's why i was asking the question of whether submission is really a "gift"

<jalyn> earn may be the wrong word i'm using here...

<trufriend> thank You Ruffles.....that's what i am getting at

<trufriend> submission, to me is a desire or a need.....not a gift

<trufriend> it was not handed to me, nor is it mine to just hand to a Dom/me

<Kilted_One> on a certain level I would say that you do earn a birthday gift........one for living another year...two for being friendly/related to whomever choses to give the gift.

<Kilted_One> complete stangers rarely get birthday gifts from ppl they do not know

<jalyn> submission is certainly a desire...maybe what i'm trying to say is that the "gift" is when you give of yourself completely to another, when you cross that bridge tof totality

<trufriend> i'm wondering if teh real "gift" here is the self realization when you DO give yourself completely to another

<trufriend> and for some, submission is much more than a desire....much deeper...it is a need

<jalyn> very true, it cant be just a desire

<trufriend> it is a life requirement to fulfill oneself

<Ruffles^> and in a D/s sense by fullfilling yourself...you are able to fulfill another

<Ruffles^> which can be related back to will's point that it is a mutual gift ?

<trufriend> i didn't think this topic would turn so many away.....is it not worth thinking

about? worth considering?

<trufriend> that's what i want to find out Ruffles

<willing1> more than a gift on either side I beleive it is more a mutual vow

* Kilted_One thinks that submission being a "gift" simply means that it is "something" that is "given to another of choice"....

* Ruffles^ thinks that is a good way to put it Kilted_One

<trufriend> but some are saying the Dom/m must earn that gift.....does it make sense to call submission a gift then.....if a gift is of free will

<Kilted_One> well of course it has to be earned...it is not given willy nilly now is it?

* Ruffles^ thinks you could when putting it in the context KO has mentioned....as a rule we only give gifts cause we want to

<jalyn> well if we are back on the earning part again...what i meant to say and have not made it any clearer is that i do not submit to just anybody just because it is me deepest need or desire

<Kilted_One> good point Ruffles

* jalyn agrees with KO

<Kilted_One> earned as in earned enough trust to get the submission

<jalyn> but by "earning" it...i mean that the Dom/me has my complete trust

<trufriend> and so you shouldn't jalyn.....and KO, i don't give anything willynilly....that's not what i mean

<willing1> which go's back to the point of an exchange, something given & something recieved

<Nusha> Who gives first?

<jalyn> when you give a birthday gift it is because you like the person and the gift has some meaning

* Kilted_One smiles at trufriend and says I know lass wasnt directed at you specifically

<trufriend> i know KO

<willing1> It is mutual

* trufriend smiles

<trufriend> just making a point

<trufriend> and just trying to understand

<Nusha> The giving is mutual?

<willing1> absolutly

<trufriend> because for me, the submission isn't the gift...it's a part of me......it's what i do with it that makes up the gift....and what i learn by sharing that submission which becomes the gift back to me

<Kilted_One> there is a big difference here in the analogy being used here...a birthday gift would normally be a purchased item that the reciever could keep....something tangible....submission is something personal that cannot be "Kept" unless continualy given if ya follow my thinking?

<Nusha> It's part of me too...but I don't submit to just anyone.

<trufriend> therefore, in answer to my original question.....submission is NOT a gift

<willing1> yes K.O. and it go's both ways

<Nusha> Do you have to gain the trust before you submit?

<Nusha> I disagree...it is a gift.

<trufriend> then why do you feel submission itself IS a gift Nusha?

<trufriend> that's what we wnat to find out this evening....

<Kilted_One> of course willing....mutual trust is normally established before the exchange take place

<willing1> when you give a gift do you expect one in return?

<Nusha> and I will now change the case letter of my name so as not to confuse anyone of my status.

<`forbidden> i never expect a gift in return

<willing1> exactly

<`forbidden> i give a gift because i want to not because i expect something in return

<trufriend> if each of you feel submission is a gift....WHY?

<willing1> that is why this is an exchange

<jalyn> putting it the way trufriend has in words...is exactly what i was trying to say...i just didnt break it down correctly

<jalyn> what we do with that submission in our actions is the "gift" so to speak

<nusha> Because it is something very ummmm, I dunno....special. When I give my submission to someone...I give them access to my soul...acess to my very essence and being...

* `forbidden agrees with jalyn

<jalyn> but that also comes from the direction of the Dom/me

<trufriend> i don't give, but share my submission, with people i feel i can trust

<nusha> Ahhh, so perhp

<nusha> ooops

<trufriend> precisely jalyn, it's not the submission itself that is the gift....it's what we do with it

<nusha> ahhh so perhaps that is the difference....I give...only to one.

<willing1> I give myself to my mistress & in return I get the dominance I desire, so it is a mutual giving on both sides

<trufriend> if a submissive is fortunate to have a Dom/me or Master/Mistress to share their submission with....that is wonderful

<nusha> Perhaps there are different levels of submission...that we speak of. Sexual submission, daily submission etc.

<nusha> mild submission...big time submission?

<Ruffles^> that is an interesting point nusha

<trufriend> but for those of us without that, we learn to share with more than one....being careful though who we can trust or share with

<nusha> Well, if you think about it...there are people we submit to all the time...our parents, our bosses, our peers..etc.

<trufriend> bedroom, 24/7, servitude, whatever level.....

<nusha> so then trufriend...it is a gift...a gift you only give to some.

<Kilted_One> Are we not getting hung up on thinking that the "gift" is something that is tangible and wrapped in paper with a bow....instead of something that is intagible? something that cant actually be handed over?

<nusha> I don't believe so Kilted One...I look upon that part of the conversation metaphorically

<jalyn> as do i

<lyxanna> plus isn't this "untangeble gift" something we actually give our selves?...not the other person?

<trufriend> not the submission itself, i do not consider it the gift....unless you want to say i myself am the gift....because my submission is a big part of who i am

<trufriend> our submission is something we hand over though KO.....in a sense

<trufriend> is it not the submission that attracts a Dom/me?

<trufriend> as well as the "packaging"?

<nusha> lyxanna that's a good point...is it a gift we give ourselves? The gift of freedom, the gift of expression, the give of self definition? hmmmm?

<willing1> I think the point is being missed BOTH give and recieve something

<trufriend> <trufriend> because for me, the submission isn't the gift...it's a part of me......it's what i do with it that makes up the gift....and what i learn by sharing that submission which becomes the gift back to me

<Kilted_One> yes in an intangible sense....it is definately exchanged but it is not something that I could then keep to myself like a "gift" in the tangible sense

<nusha> truefriend...it is a big part of who I am too...but I don't reveal that part to just anyone. Other things are big parts of me too, character attributes, personality stuff...but I don't always choose to share them

<trufriend> but if You become that submissive's own Dom or Master....do You not have it all to Yourself?

<lyxanna> lol

<Kilted_One> not in a tangible sense tru

<Kilted_One> if vixen wanted to end the exchange tonight she simply could so so

<trufriend> forgive me KO, but i don't see vixen sharing her "gift" with anybody else....it is truly Yours

<lyxanna> I have seen so many Dom/mes share their submissives..not in the physical sense but in the sense of....see what s/he has given me to play with, see what s/he has given me to care for

<Kilted_One> I dont have it to keep locked away

<lyxanna> I personall don't see how someone could keep it all to themselves

<nusha> I was late...so I'm not sure...has submission been defined?

<trufriend> more than You realize, i think You do KO......and i don't mean to point at You soley.......that would hold true for any Dom/me

<lyxanna> it is too beautiful to keep locked up

<JullieCD> evening all

<jalyn> perhaps that is the difference of how a sub or Dom looks at the gift from their own perspectives

<willing1> this is still a two sided issue , both give & both recieve!

<lyxanna> agreed willing

<JullieCD> i would hope so too

<nusha> I agree that it is too beautiful to keep locked away...but by the same token do you not consider it too special to give to anyone other than someone special to you?

<nusha> But the submissive gives first?

<lyxanna> oh, I don't believe that nusha....

<willing1> yes and that special some one gives back

<trufriend> as in any relationship willing1....it should be equal give and take

<trufriend> why do you feel that way nusha?

<nusha> Then again...I ask for submission to be defined...because I maybe defining it in a different way.

<trufriend> why does the submissive give first?

<`forbidden> everyone defines *submission* differently nusha

* Ruffles^ is not sure there is only one definition nusha

* lyxanna doesn't believe the submissive does give first

* meow` wonders why trufriend thinks the submissive gives first?

<nusha> Yes, that I know...so I'd like to know how it is being defined here.

<JullieCD> sorry i don't agree the sub does not have to give irst

<trufriend> i don't meow...nusha made that comment and i was why?

<nusha> I asked...I didn't say that that was the case..

<trufriend> asking why that is...

<willing1> it is irrelivant as to who gives first as both recieve

<nusha> I'm not saying the submissive gives first...notice question mark

<lyxanna> agreed willing

<meow`> i don't think the submissive always gives first .... sometimes it is the other way around .... one works at any type of relationship, give and receive .... goes both ways

<JullieCD> it should always be done with love and tenderness to some extent

<meow`> if it didn't go both ways, the relationship wouldn't be worth very much at all

<willing1> exactly

<nusha> but does someone have to give their submission first before they become dominated or is it the otherway around..

<JullieCD> and from there build on that

<jalyn> wouldn't last very long either

<`forbidden> it happens both ways nusha

* meow` can't ever imagine being in a relationship where it wasn't both ways .... if it wasn't, i'd get out real fast

<JullieCD> yes me too

<`forbidden> i was in a situation where the Dom gave his dominance and my submission just came out naturally as it always does

<trufriend> "submit: to yield to the action, control, power, etc. of another or others"

<`forbidden> and there have been times where i have submitted first

<`forbidden> and his dominance followed

<`forbidden> and on some rare occaisions the Dom and i gave at the same time

<trufriend> from Webster's description.....it is the Dominance that is given first and the submission follows...

meow` listens to `forbidden .... actually i think in my experiences, i was always last to

respond ...

<JullieCD> i really feel the dom has to recognise the other person's strengths and weekness's to be in control

<`forbidden> yeah most of mine are like that meow`

<meow`> after all, how would i have known what to respond or submit to ...?

<nusha> That definition trufriend, I don't think give justice to what we are as submissive...I do much more than yeild...much more...I give access to places in me (and not only the physical places)

<willing1> again first or second is irrellevant both mutually give and take

<Kilted_One> does control not have to be taken?

<meow`> forbi, i think all of mine were ... hmmmmmmmmmm

<trufriend> i know what you mean nusha.......

<meow`> you can't exchange the power with someone who doesn't want to take it first

<JullieCD> depends on the situation

<trufriend> my submission is much more than physical

<jalyn> or have it to begin with

<nusha> exactly meow...there can be no exchange unless someone offers and accepts...I'm asking who offers first?

<`forbidden> well in most of my experience the Dom took control in a most subtle manner

<JullieCD> well that is part of getting to know the other person

<JullieCD> exactly what i mean

<trufriend> that's like saying who asks to dance first nusha....

<`forbidden> i don't think it matters who offers first

<Kilted_One> sounds a little like the chicken and egg theory nusha??

<nusha> okay...trufriend...I'll go with that...so who asks who to dance first...

* meow` clucks ... i mean .... oh never mind

<`forbidden> well using the dance theory if i wanna dance with someone i ask

<nusha> Could be Kilted One...or could be just different for everyone.

<trufriend> depends on the song.....lol

<`forbidden> if they say yes then great if not i'll live

<meow`> dancing is waaaaaaaay different than this scene

<`forbidden> and if they wanna dance with me then they should ask me

<nusha> lol...well lets say the song was country trufriend..lol...just kidding.

<trufriend> like KO said....it's like the chicken or the egg...which came first?.....

<`forbidden> but i have found that when offering of one's self there is rarely any verbalization that occurs

<trufriend> does it really matter?

<`forbidden> in my experiences anyways

<trufriend> go with the flow.....what feels right?

<`forbidden> exactly trufriend

<JullieCD> as as domme I always like to get into the other person's head space first then I can begin to control

<nusha> No, it doesn't really matter....only if you define it as a gift...then someone has to give first...

<trufriend> one experience might be you asking first....another might be to wait for the Dom/me to ask first....

<trufriend> but does it matter WHO?? i give a gift because i want to, not because i feel i should

* `forbidden agrees with trufriend

* meow` never really thought it was a gift .... at least not in my participation ....

<trufriend> "well, he gave me a gift, now i must give one back" doesn't work for me

<nusha> I think it matters who...at least it does for me.

<lil^bear^^> hi..

<meow`> it is just a relationship ... a different kind of relationship than a vanilla one .... and there is work involved, and give and receive .... but not a specific "gift"

<nusha> Well, one can not survive with the other...not in practice anyway.

<trufriend> and i'm not trying to belittle your feelings nusha, maybe just trying to get you to look at different perpectives

<nusha> no belittling felt trufriend...I enjoy discussion and hardly ever take it personally.

* meow` stomps a paw and takes it purrrrrrrsonally ;)

<JullieCD> nusha do you have a domme right now?

<trufriend> i asked Bernie about this topic for discussion folks because i have heard a lot of people talking about submission as some sort of giftwrapped object

<nusha> Yup...a Dom

* lyxanna doesn't think it matters Jullie

<jalyn> why would anyone give a gift just because the received one?

<JullieCD> now now meow~

<trufriend> and it got to me in a weird way....

<trufriend> many people do jalyn

* lil^bear^^ will stay out of this one..she usually ends up banned when tese discussions take place

* trufriend tosses meow a gift of catnip....

<`forbidden> well trufriend the object part in that statement bugs me because i'm not an object i'm a person

<trufriend> exactly forbidden

<jalyn> and what i consider my gift, the actions of my submission are hardly candy coated or decorated in bows

* meow` offers to share ... anyone?

<trufriend> submissive or Dom/me, we are people first

<nusha> again...I don't see it as a physical thing...I'm not giving him *me* I'm giving him my essence...I'm basically allowing him into the depths of my soul...revealing myself completely..becoming completely vonerable

<JullieCD> i never have

<meow`> there! there was a need ... and someone gave ... did it matter who said who wanted the catnip? hmmmmmm, it sure felt nice that someone gave me the catnip first before i asked for it

* meow` wonders about the parallels to a relationship .... hmmmmmmmm ...

<trufriend> but your "pretty packaging" is attached nusha.....how can you separate them?

* trufriend smiles at meow

<nusha> lol...pretty packaging...lol..that's a good one...obviously you haven't seen my packaging...

* meow` knows that she has on occasion been "thanked" by a Dom for giving her submission .... wonders if she can work on that theory in reverse

<nusha> the gift isn't my physical self...but my spirit...hmmm, I know this may sound so hokey..but Sire is the only person...that can break my spirit with words..

<`forbidden> i have thanked a Dom or two in my time for their gift of dominance...

<lil^bear^^> i also have thanked a Dom or two

<JullieCD> that's not hokey nusha

<nusha> He is the only one who I've given my submission to at that level...that is a gift. I will never give it again.

<JullieCD> that shows he understands your headspace

* lyxanna realizes that drinking too much water after vomitting is not a good thing

<lyxanna> gotta go

<nusha> it also shows the level of trust that I needed aquired before I could submit that far

<JullieCD> nusha you don't know what is waiting for you around the next corner so never is a very verey long time

<nitebound> Hello all

<lil^bear^^> I have to go..night A/all...:)

<Kilted_One> glad you could share that with us lyx lol

<nusha> Yes, you're right...never say never...and I usually live by that...

<trufriend> never say never....cuz that's when ya will!

<JullieCD> wasn't there a movie by that name??

<jalyn> but KO made a good point about the gift being one that cannot be kept

<nusha> lol

<`forbidden> i believe parts of it can be kept

<trufriend> what i given cannot be returned

<`forbidden> my most precious gifts from people are my memories

<trufriend> because the gift is constantly changing

<nusha> How can it not be kept...well as I define it...it's like ...a secret code..you either know it or you don't.

<`forbidden> try nusha

<trufriend> the gift to me is the experience, not the submission itself

<`forbidden> some people know the combination to my *submission safe* and others don't

<`forbidden> i agree with that trufriend

<nusha> confused...try? try what forbidden?

<`forbidden> meant true

<`forbidden> sorry *L*

<nusha> that's what I mean forbidden...how can you take back that combination...

* meow` thinks it can be taken back or withdrawn at any time

<trufriend> please feel free to continue talking about this but the clock says it is now 10PM ladies and gentlemen.....therefore once again, i would like to thank everybody for coming out tonight.....

<nusha> Oh..okay...good....was worried I was becoming more confused than normally so.

* meow` gives trufriend a ^5 for tonight

<jalyn> thanks trufriend...well done

* Kilted_One pats trufriends on the shoulder and congrats her

<nusha> Thank you for being moderator trufriend.

<BernieRoehl> Thanks for moderating, trufriend! Much appreciated!

* Ruffles^ thanks trufriend for a job well done :)

<trufriend> thank you everyone....this was somewhat a personal topic for me......Bernie humoured me by letting me do this tonight...

* trufriend curtsies to Bernie and everyone in the room