June 13, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Consensual Embarrassment and Humiliation". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<paperclip> someone going to start? lol
<`abi> that's your job paperclip
<paperclip> lol nooooooo way
<`abi> think of it as a dare
<paperclip> ok. lol
<paperclip> let me see....
<paperclip> hmmm
<victoria_angel> start with this - examples of how you've been embarrased or humiliated.........
<paperclip> oh
<paperclip> not sure i want to do that LOL
<TomDLux> Oh come on, paperclip, you can do it
<TomDLux> Everone's looking at you
<`abi> okay...examples of how you'd like to be embarrassed or humiliated ... would that be easier?
<daria> maybe we could start with what is it that you love about this type of play
<paperclip> ok, go for it daria lol
<daria> i mean what do you come away with from a scene like this
* `abi watches paperclip take the out and run with it
<paperclip> lol
<paperclip> yup yup
<daria> is it the mental control
<jewel`{F}> being embarrassed can be something as simple as Him saying something about you in front of others
<daria> yay
<paperclip> ok, i'll be the first to admit...and will never again do so...i love humiliation play. it's exhilarating.
<paperclip> it's a high or something like that. not sure why. i think it plays into the whole control thing.
<paperclip> no/yes?
<krista-F> i have never done it...
<`abi> and why would you not want to admit that?
<TomDLux> Yes
<dana^^> puts you in your place perhaps?
<paperclip> yes
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps paperclip is embarrassed to admit it?
<paperclip> becuz i don't like saying too much about myself online abi LOL
<dana^^> lol
<paperclip> no, just secretive
<paperclip> lol
* BernieRoehl smiles
<TomDLux> What sort of humiliating things do you imagine people making you do, paperclip?
<paperclip> i say much but tell little.
<paperclip> oh gawd!!!
<paperclip> i don't know really.
<paperclip> lol
<paperclip> wow, i'm breaking out into a sweat over here!
<TomDLux> Oh sure you do, paperclip
* kimochi dcc's a fan to paperclip
<TomDLux> What do you iamgine when you masturbate?
<paperclip> lol kimochi
<paperclip> i already shared that current fantasy in a game of truth/dare in the toronto room, i'm not about to put myself thru that again TomDLux
<krista-F> boy.......she's jumpin on that one
<paperclip> lol
<`abi> lol..especially since this one gets logged and posted
<carissa^> in my experience, this is always a topic that fascinates people, but that everyone - esp. subs - are loath to discuss. Maybe we should/could talk about why that is, first. ??
<paperclip> TomDLux, as a Dom, what do you get out of being the giver of embarrassment?
<`abi> nothing like having your fantasies come up in a google search for humiliation
<TomDLux> the control
<TomDLux> And I love arousing women by doing things nice girls don't know about, let alone desire
<paperclip> yup abi. lol
<paperclip> ah
<paperclip> such as? lol
<krista-F> well that lets me out....ive never been a nice girl
* paperclip might find a new fantasy sometime tonigt lol
<paperclip> lol krista-F
* BernieRoehl smiles @ abi
<daria> well i have all my lifel so this does pertain to me
* TomDLux laughs
<daria> the thought is very exciting
<daria> but the reality is scary
<daria> i am not sure where ea ends
<TomDLux> I like the degradation, making someone subhuman, for a while
<krista-F> i really don't understand what humiliation consists of
<krista-F> name calling??
<paperclip> can you still respect a person if you're humiliating them? degrading them?
<carissa^> objectification can be very humiliating . . . and a very good time!
<_dove{S}> what is the appeal for you in degrading someone, TomDLux?
<TomDLux> In my mind, there's a split personality aspect to it, the person I degrade is different from the human I respect
<krista-F> how do you degrade Sir??
<krista-F> i really don't know how it works...
<carissa^> i have found that some Doms find it difficult to do humiliation play because of their upbringing . . . that paperclip's question keeps recurring for them
<TomDLux> name calling, exhibitionism, crawling, watersports, threats of bestiality
<TomDLux> Depends on the person
<carissa^> Any Dom/mes here experience that?
<TomDLux> Oh, it's always difficult
<TomDLux> My first spanking weas difficult ... not supposed to do that to women
<paperclip> i've heard many guys say that TomDLux
<TomDLux> the fun part is in "going beyond the limits of respectability" and having the victim eaerly accept my unreasonable demand
<LadyNichola> it is challenging even as a woman
<paperclip> right before they smack my ass!
<krista-F> for me...to be called.....slut...bitch....whore.....that has never had any effect on me
<krista-F> but call me old.....fat......ugly.etc etc.......that would
<LadyNichola> it's a question of the right buttons krista
<TomDLux> But could it be erotic to be called old, fat, ugly?
<carissa^> i adore words like krista's first example . . . but the second example ones would turn me right off
<paperclip> those names have a wonderful affect on me krista-F. i think you're one of few possibly. i think the most D/s factor is most emphasized during a humiliation scene. anyone agree or disagree with any of that?
<catsbrat{CM}> to be called that i would probably hit the person
<daria> it would me
<krista-F> no...not for me......i tend to buy into it too much.and it would be detremental to my emotional well being
<krista-F> but that is just me
<dana^^> same here krista... the other names can be wonderful though...
<paperclip> do you think D/s is most emphasized during humiliation play? i do.
<LadyNichola> I don't think it's just you... the challenge is getting close to the edge of believability
<TomDLux> So being told you're a slut is not exciting, krista ... how about if we made you strip in front of everyone ... not at a play station, but in the social area?
<krista-F> very true LadyNichola....
<`abi> how are you using 'most' paperclip .... as in the most relevant factor in humiliation or as in the most D/s'y thing you can do?
<LadyNichola> if the degradation is way out there... "you're purple"
<daria> that would send me over the edge TomDLux
<krista-F> no...its not exciting because it happens to be the truth
<LadyNichola> then it's so unbelievable as to be ridiculous
<LadyNichola> too close to the bone ... and you do damage
<daria> nod
<paperclip> the 2nd part. i think it is a prime example of D/s at work. for me, D/s is usually a subtle thing, always there but not so 'in your face' make sense?
<TomDLux> You mean over the edge in a bad way, daria?
* _dove{S} agrees with LadyNichola about the potential damage
<daria> good
<Curious> Just a question. What would people believe is more humiliating Physical or Mental Humiliation.
<`abi> well, then in that case I think it's an individual thing ... it is not the most D/s'y thing I do by any stretch
* TomDLux makes an appointment with daria and 30 other people
<daria> i have never had that done but i know i'd do it and it would overcome me
<krista-F> yes..perhpas if i was not old fat and ugly....it would not bother me so much
<LadyNichola> no such thing as physical humiliation
<paperclip> define physical vs. mental Curious
<daria> i'd be embarrrassed but excited
<Curious> Sorry let me rephrase. Verbal "abuse" or humilation through making someone do something they would normally object to.
<LadyNichola> Admittedly, making someone drink from a dog bowl is physical
<TomDLux> It's all about beign taken to the limit of what you dare imagine ... and going a tiny step further
<LadyNichola> but the humiliation comes from how the sub copes with it
<paperclip> hmmm more humiliating would be the physical for me then Curious
<krista-F> now see....i don't find that humiliating at all
<TomDLux> some has physical components, some doesn't ... but nothing is purely phyusical with no mental/emotional component
<spankablecyn> I think the Dom sets the tone, if it is done in a teasing sexual sort of way it is fun for me if it is done in a derogatory, ment to hurt feeling sort of way of course it is not fun at all.
* LadyNichola is put in mind of the phrase "deeds speak"
<`abi> I would agree LadyNichola ... if it is something from which I can disassociate ... then it isn't humiliating
<TomDLux> How about a derogatory tone which isn't meant to hurt and harm, but is meant to stretch you to the limit
<paperclip> i would think if you're with a Dom, you trust him and wouldn't have to make that disassociation, no?
<GoodFella> It has to be really humialiting without any intention of hurting the subs feelings, the closer to it, the better the degradation.
<paperclip> you'd know what is going on.
<spankablecyn> Being near naked in public is humiliating enough for me
<LadyNichola> depends on how hard the Domme pushes
<krista-F> i seem to have a very low tolerance for harsh words......they cut deeply ....but physically....i have worn more than one Dom out
<paperclip> i think sometimes we knitpick. i assume if i'm having humiliation play with someone it's becuz i trust them. so no, he doesn't have to go about trying to figure out if i'm ok with something or not. it takes away from it.
<LadyNichola> it's very challenging from a communication standpoint... one has to rely almost exclusively on body language to read the sub
<spankablecyn> Search the limit of what? How insecure or bad you can make a sub feel? I think if she is in to it, it is great, your giving her what she enjoys, if she/he is not into it then it works against you
<shareena> i agree spankablecyn
<LadyNichola> true nuff spankable, however... how do you deal with a stoic sub
<paperclip> if you can't handle humiliation play simply do not do it.
<krista-F> and cyn..in spite of my physical flaws....nudity is not an issue for me at all...go figure
<paperclip> it's no different than needle play etc. don't do what you can't handle.
<LadyNichola> slightly different paperclip
<paperclip> why LadyNichola?
<krista-F> i think that is why i have steered clear of it paperclip....im afraid of it
<LadyNichola> because if someone reacts physically to needles, there's no "shame" in saying ouch
<paperclip> you'd enjoy trying to humliate someone only to have to stop every 5 mins to ask if they're ok with something?
<LadyNichola> whereas with humiliation... some subs will grin and bear it... without giving feedback
<spankablecyn> LadyNichola if they are not effected by passion or feelings then how is humiliation going to get a reaction out of them?
<kimochi> i don't think it's possible to say "if you don't like humiliation play, don't do it" (or needle play, or any form of play) - there are so many "shades" of each type of play that it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to make it black & white
<daria> i have a question: isnt this discussed between dom sub prior in most cases
<daria> what your limits are
<shareena> it was with us daria
<spankablecyn> The whole idea in my mind in play is to get a reaction, no?
<paperclip> lol should be daria.
<daria> and then up to the dom to push them
<LadyNichola> hardly... "is it okay to call you a slut?" kind of defeats the purpose
<paperclip> as far as i'm concerned daria, yes.
<daria> ah
<paperclip> lol
<krista-F> kimochi...i aggree.....but i have never been owned...and it takes a great deal of trust to do things that are difficult
<jewel`{F}> limits can change though daria, and at times if someone is new, they may have no idea of all the types of play, or even what they will or will not enjoy
* kimochi wouldn't get the same effect if it was always discussed first
<daria> i understand now
<LadyNichola> yes... there's broad negotiation ahead of time
<LadyNichola> but there are so many different ways to "cut" with words
<paperclip> but, in my short time that's all i get preached about...be with someone you trust be with someone you trust. so, why would there be a problem then?
<paperclip> i'm just getting confused here now lol
<LadyNichola> and (ot extend the analogy) it's not always easy to see people bleed
* TomDLux doesn't think negotiations need to discuss every element of a scene ... but the more you know about a person, the easier it is to know what wil work, what will cause bad triggers
<LadyNichola> Tom gets it
<paperclip> agreed TomDLux
<daria> agreed
<_dove{S}> Those bad triggers are an important discussion point TomDLux, imo
<LadyNichola> lol
<kimochi> a "bad trigger" one day won't necessarily be a bad trigger another day
<LadyNichola> how can you possibly cover all those bases off?
<krista-F> words hold great power for me......
<TomDLux> it helps to only trigger them if you wanted to .... accidents can be alarming
<LadyNichola> exactly kimochi
<LadyNichola> and, Tom far more likely than with other forms of play
<_dove{S}> If there was emotional abuse in one's past, something quite inane can get ugly quickly
<LadyNichola> at least as you approach the edge
<LadyNichola> true dove
<kimochi> dove, that's where personal responsibility rears its head
<TomDLux> True, there's some variations day to day, but you have soem ideas ... and if you have a bit of a bad effecty, at least you won't tromple a dozen before you can recover
<kimochi> its a sub's responsibility to be clear about obvious matters that might make play unhealthy - a bad knee, a sexual abuse history, etc
<spankablecyn> For me it is easier to say I am not in to Humiliation because it covers such a vast area, like some have said it would take so long to go in to details of a scene if you are playing with someone that you have not spent a great deal of time with
<paperclip> here's where i'm having a problem. all these issues you guys are raising makes me think the two involved wouldn't know each other very much. to me, that's bad all round. i think humiliation play should be reserved for two ppl who know each other and know things without having to discuss every minute detail.
<`abi> you still can't cover off all the potential triggers kimochi ... you might not even know it's there until it goes ... which is why I think humiliation play is edge play
<LadyNichola> totally agree abi
<_dove{S}> It's very much edge play for me abi
<kimochi> true - i meant the ones that are known
<krista-F> it would be for me as welll
<spankablecyn> paperclip, I agree with you
<paperclip> ty spankablecyn
<`abi> there has to be the knowledge and the ability to pick up the pieces ... that's not appropriate to casual play
<TomDLux> yes and no, paperclip .... certain intense play is challenging, except perhaps to the expert 9 which i'm not)
<paperclip> i don't understand what you just meant TomDLux
<spankablecyn> Some Love it, Some like myself would rather have bruised ass than a brusied ego *grin*
<paperclip> i'm referring to the their relationship. the not having to discuss every single thing.
<LadyNichola> very much agree spankable
<krista-F> the only time i felt that such a thing had taken place...i felt like he had taken my soul and ripped it apart.....and then gave it back
<TomDLux> but milder levels are certainly attainable without knowing each other extensively
<LadyNichola> and of course... it's tough on both sides when it comes to ego
<paperclip> ok, true TomDLux. i guess i'm just not talking about those milder levels.
<`abi> can you give us an example of what you would consider to be a milder level Tom?
<LadyNichola> in some respects, "offline games" are harder because they permit fewer cues to come from the sub
<barbie> hullo
<LadyNichola> online, there's a fair amount of "cuing"...
<TomDLux> Depends on the person, abi .... After all, some women consider going out without a bra nothing at all, others consider it intolerably slutty
<LadyNichola> (bordering on topping from the bottom)
<kimochi> some days i'd consider it slutty, other days i wouldn't
<paperclip> i call it horrifying!
<krista-F> i would just consider it cowlike...in my case....
<krista-F> if ya have a bovine fetish....im your girl!
<kimochi> some days i'd consider being cowlike slutty, some days not
<spankablecyn> I figure if you going to a play party your an exhibionist anyway, but still at times I feel embarassed, having a good time all the same
<LadyNichola> moo
<krista-F> lol
<LadyNichola> Not too many tops in here... let alone those who play in this arena
<TomDLux> Some people go for ponyplay, some prefer udder humiliation
<paperclip> lol
* BernieRoehl chimes in
<LadyNichola> Go Bernie
<Curious> ponyplay?
<BernieRoehl> Speaking as a Dom who does enjoy humiliation...
<spankablecyn> For me Humiliation torture would be going to a play party in khaki pants *giggle*
<BernieRoehl> I find that it's the reaction -- the blushing, the squirming, the wanting-to-hide-but-not-being-able-to -- is what does it for me
<paperclip> i think being on the other end of the BernieRoehl is what makes me like being the recipient of it.
<krista-F> maybe if i had to fart in public that would humiliate me
<paperclip> the = that
<BernieRoehl> Whatever a particular individual finds most humiliating (within their boundaries, but just barely) is the most satisfying
<LadyNichola> nodz... if they don't blush, it don't count
* BernieRoehl wonders what "the BernieRoehl" is -- have they named some exotic form of humiliation after Me?
<krista-F> i have not blushed since i was about 25....seriously
<`abi> Bernie becomes a verb ... kewl
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, LadyNichola
* BernieRoehl smiles at being a verb
<BernieRoehl> Then it's about time, krista-F
<paperclip> lol BernieRoehl re: the BernieRoehl was typo!
<spankablecyn> I think some humiliation is good to humble a sub
<`abi> Can't remember the last time I was Bernied
* jewel`{F} thinks it must have counted for herself then lots and lots and lots of times cause far too many have been able to make me blush
<krista-F> you are quite possibly right Bernie Sir
<kimochi> sometimes it's not so much about being made to blush, but more about wondering "does She really mean that?" -- just skirting that edge of uncertainty
* BernieRoehl smiles
<LadyNichola> interesting kimochi... expand
<kimochi> <---phone !
<LadyNichola> how convenient
<krista-F> lol
<paperclip> lol
<krista-F> saved by the bell
* Fyre{j} looks at jewel` until she blushes (about 1.32 microseconds)
<spankablecyn> saved by the bell
<jewel`{F}> lol nice save kimochi
<LadyNichola> see what I mean about "online cues"?
* paperclip can't believe she is actually seeing THE Fyre{j}!!!
* BernieRoehl looks back and chuckles @ abi
<LadyNichola> This thread has been done to death... but humility and humiliation are related terms
<BernieRoehl> True... and the one can often lead to the other (humiliation -> humility)
<LadyNichola> indeed..
<QTIP> "Pride goeth before a fall..."
<LadyNichola> the objective is not to damage the submissive
<LadyNichola> but to "humble" them
<BernieRoehl> Many submissives feel they need to be "being taken down a notch", so to speak, and humiliation is part of what does it for them
<daria> yes
<LadyNichola> precisely Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Precisely
* BernieRoehl smiles
<paperclip> i think there's a difference. putting one in their place and humiliation are very separate to me.
<daria> heheh
<QTIP> for some being made to feel smaller, insignificant, allows them to feast at a banquet of intensity
<BernieRoehl> Go on, paperclip
<jewel`{F}> depends on how it is done i would think paperclip
<carissa^> there's something about the removal of pride . . . can then make other activities more possible
<paperclip> oh i can't, can't really explain it lol just that i don't need to be humiliated to have someone remind me of my misbehaviour or whatever.
<paperclip> or to remind me of my place.
* SadisticNature thinks humiliation is an effective tool to satisfy urges and for mutual benefit but is not an effective tool for training of subs
<spankablecyn> Sometimes a look from a Dom is stronger than words
<daria> oh god yes
<SadisticNature> public humiliation also raises consent issues for observers whenever it is public or semi-public.
* barbie nods in agreement
<QTIP> agreed, SadisticNature
* krista-F a wuss
<barbie> well said SadisticNature, Sir...sometimes watching another sub go through something humiliating to them is very uncomfortable and painful to watch
<QTIP> what is humiliation without an audience? i have a small group of friends who enjoy witnessing this type of scene. that is the audience i choose
* LadyNichola smiles at barbies discomfort
<SadisticNature> QTIP: If you choose an appropriate audience with consent from all parties than by all means go ahead
<Achilles{tr}> Heavens yes.. wouldn't want to squick the audience.
<paperclip> BernieRoehl, to try to explain it would be impossible to me, i think it depends on the subbie and what their personality is. i don't need to be embarrassed to be reminded of my place. a simple 'excuse me miss' suffices for me. humiliation is something i personally prefer to be intense so that's where i make my distinction.
<daria> wouldnt a dom know if their sub could handle that
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for the clarification, paperclip
<SadisticNature> but I dislike the notion of using humiliation to put someone in their place, to me it sounds like a Dom clutching blindly at power without taking the necessary responsibility to earn and hold it.
<paperclip> did that make sense to you BernieRoehl?
<LadyNichola> some submissives are prideful, challenging and like a little bit of a fight
<krista-F> do Doms find that more attractive?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, paperclip -- thanks
<paperclip> :)
<paperclip> i think they do krista-F
<TomDLux> gotta go, later folks
<carissa^> and some are just prideful . . . and require that pride to be taken away before they can truly submit
<LadyNichola> somedays
<LadyNichola> sometimes, it's just a pain in the ass
<krista-F> that must be my fatal flaw then....im too agreeable
<SadisticNature> carissa^: there are other effective ways of teaching a sub their place besides humiliation, and humiliation can have very negative effects
<paperclip> i think regardless of what they say about obedience i think they like the fight and fiestiness.
<carissa^> i agree SadisticNature
<carissa^> but done carefully, it can be quite a ride
<krista-F> yes.that was the term i meant...obedient...not agreeable..
<LadyNichola> well, paperclip, strength in a partner is quite stimulating
<LadyNichola> but that's different to pure contrariness
<paperclip> oh, i was agreeing with you LadyNichola.
<paperclip> agreed again.
<SadisticNature> perhaps, but it sounds like if you have to erode someones self esteem in order to make them submissive you risk having them learn nothing in the long term.
* barbie nods slowly in agreement
<SadisticNature> because when they regain their self esteem all their confident behaviors will return
<`abi> I think the idea of humiliation play SadisticNature is to humiliate *without* eroding selfesteem
<LadyNichola> too bad you werent here earlier sadnature
<paperclip> no, i think that's more an example of a Dom/me with a self esteem problem SadisticNature
<carissa^> ah, but humiliation play does not necessarily mean that sef-esteem has to be eroded
<LadyNichola> < Like they said
<carissa^> yeah, what abi said!
* SadisticNature agrees that humiliation should not be used to erode self esteem, but how does humiliation teach a sub their place without doing so?
<barbie> 02`abi10, isnt that the difference between a humiliation and a degredation. i read Jack Roell's article in LeatherTimes about the difference between the two.
<SadisticNature> seems almost contradictory to me.
<paperclip> if one seeks to destroy or erode, i think it's the doer who has the issues.
<carissa^> here's an example, for me:
<`abi> it allows them perhaps to inhabit a different place for awhile SadisticNature
<Achilles{tr}> Claiming humiliation play erodes the self esteem of the subject is about as simplistic a view as claiming whipping in a scene is abuse.
<krista-F> i think thats what i have a problem with...it would not be good for my self esteem.i would buy into the whole thing too much
<daria> good nite all
<carissa^> i find certain positions humiliating ....... but ultimately freeing
<spankablecyn> Tonight's topic starts with the word Consensual.......that is the key to Humiliation play
<QTIP> this type of game with a willing sub is a tightrope walk. if the sub enjoys visiting their limits and wants more, More, MORE, especially. i'm not interested in creating nor maintaining a human doormat
<LadyNichola> quite so Achilles...
<SadisticNature> Achilles: read my claim properly please. I wasn't outright claiming, I was questioning and the exact thing I was questioning is "How does humiliation designed to teach a sub their place work without eroding self esteem?"
<Achilles{tr}> SadNature: Read My statement carefully... You were not named.
<`abi> I have found that there is a link between humiliation and humility.... and there is something very calming about humility
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<carissa^> forced to lie prone at my Dom's feet feels humiliating to me, but it gets me into sub mode pretty damn quick!
<carissa^> and my self-esteem is left intact
<LadyNichola> perfect example carissa
<SadisticNature> Achilles: I believe I was the only person to make a comment about humiliation eroding self esteem, but lets drop this and return to the chat.
<LadyNichola> but sad nature has a point
<krista-F> and i love to lie at his feet..that is where i find my greatest peace in life
<krista-F> so again.....we are all so different
<Achilles{tr}> <laughs>
<paperclip> i like intense, the more crying pleading i end up doing the better! LOL
* Achilles{tr} laughs
<LadyNichola> if one goes too far (whatever that might be) it can erode self-esteem
<carissa^> yup krista-F ....... but i have a tough time getting there . . . that pride thing, again
<LordScott-> well, a regular job will do that too!
<LordScott-> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Yes.. and if one goes too far.. it IS abuse.
<krista-F> and i love it....i am where i want to be..doing exactly what i want to do
<krista-F> i could die happy there
<paperclip> LadyNichola, i think the earlier point trying to be made was if the intent behind it was that the eroding was on purpose.
<SadisticNature> carissa^: definitions of humiliation very widely, I really don't consider "forcing" (where ""'s imply consensual) someone to kneel at a Doms feet to be Humiliation play even though it can be humiliating for some.
<`abi> it isn't humiliating if it's humiliating?
<SadisticNature> If someone has purposed a clear definition on what is an isn't I'd love to hear it
<Achilles{tr}> The too far argument/discussion generally leads into the what is too much debate which leads to conversations about safewords and then the rain of claims from those who don't use safe words. <smiles> Done that dance.
<SadisticNature> `abi: The primary purpose of the action is to demonstrated submissiveness
<carissa^> i guess it's that idea that humiliation play is very relative, depends on the people involved, etc.
<paperclip> not all of us Achilles{tr}, there's newbies here too you know.
<carissa^> it would be a part of humiliation play for me
<SadisticNature> humiliation play to me is something where the primary purpose of the action is to humiliate.
<`abi> a definition? if it feels like humiliation, it's humiliation
<paperclip> i think this is where human nature comes into play, don't ppl who are into somewhat the same things end up together? yes/no?
<`abi> whatever the end result or the purpose
* Achilles{tr} waits to see who trots out their Websters first.
<carissa^> agreed, paperclip
<paperclip> ty carissa^
<LordScott-> the best consensual humiliation is done in a public place in such a way that only you two know what's going on!
<paperclip> i just mean, that if i wasn't into scat play i probably wouldn't hook up with someone who loves it.
<carissa^> i'm not sure the primary purpose does have to be humiliation . . . it's not necessarily that way for me
<`abi> LadyNichola doesn't allow us to use Websters ;)
<LordScott-> no one else realizes it
<LadyNichola> atta girl
<LadyNichola> OED only
<paperclip> LordScott- i really don't agree with that.
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<carissa^> although it can definitely be an end in and of itself, for sure