June 11 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<Kilted_One> tonights topic is "How Accepting Are You of Other People's Kinks?"
<Kilted_One> any openign thoughts anyone?
<{autumn}_U_> hmmmm very
<{autumn}_U_> to each his/her own
* slutkat agrees with autumn
<{autumn}_U_> besides I like to learn about different people and what interests them
<BernieRoehl> I'll take of it, KO...
* bottoms_up37 wonders what counts as other peoples kinks
<^^blush^^> i think most ppl are accepting of others kinks as long as everyone is having fun and no one is getting hurt
<{autumn}_U_> where it stems from and where it may take them
<Kilted_One> so you think that we are accepting of others then autumn
<|Karen> Nocturnal says he's very tolerant of other people's kinks
<BernieRoehl> I've set the automatic channel message as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using hebron.in.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "How Accepting Are You of Other People's Kinks?". The moderator tonight is Kilted_One. Enjoy the discussion!
<redhot64> hey bottoms how are you
<{autumn}_U_> i think i am KO, i dont know of others so much
* Leathersmith has touble with animals and scat
<smacker> what do we mean by accepting?
* dalian adds dead things as well
<{autumn}_U_> not judging is how i take it
<Kilted_One> what do you think it means smacker?
<|Karen> I'm at the keyboard, and Nocturnal` is editing from the couch
<{autumn}_U_> lol
<zee{JR}> we say to each H/his own but do we practice that.. perhaps in the larger scheme of things we do but with the little differences i think many people jump to tell the other they hate this or hate that
<fire{RB}> I don't believe that most people are accepting of others kinks
<Kilted_One> but if it is not "your thing" and it is SSC is it not OK for others no matter what it is??
<smacker> not judging is certainly a big part of it.
<fire{RB}> Even here in the community
<{autumn}_U_> but if i hate something zee it doesn't mean i would judge someone else for liking it
<{autumn}_U_> just isn't for me ......
<Kilted_One> why is that fire??
* zee{JR} has been asked or told other hated this girl referring to herself in the third person and typing the W/we thing
<{autumn}_U_> ahhhhh i say if its you then be you
* |Karen judges other people on their Kinks sometimes 'it's just a natural human reaction'
<Kilted_One> can we have and opinion without judging?
<{autumn}_U_> i think so....
<smacker> there'
<smacker> s a fine line
<{autumn}_U_> my opinion is not to form an opinion.....tomorrow i may learn something i didnt know today and it would or could change anyway
<fire{RB}> I listen to people talk, and I like to watch and analysis, I hear people saying so and so does suture play or blood sports..that is so disgusting and I have listen to them condemn others for their kinks, I guess at times it irrates me, for we are no better then, and if we look to the vanilla world, they condemn us and do not accept our kinks, and we in turn do not accept other peoples kinks if it goes beyond what we consider "norm"
<zee{JR}> agree {autumn}_U_ and within that learning you may adopt something that touches your soul.
<{autumn}_U_> exactly
<^^blush^^> as long as we don't try to change others.. tell them they are wrong.. there is nothing wrong with not wanting to participate in someone else's kink.. just don't make them feel they are wrong to enjoy it
* |Karen nods, agreeing with blush...
<Kilted_One> is there specicif things that we can do that makes it clear that we are commenting and not judging?
<|Karen> trying to change someone is over the line...
<fire{RB}> But Karen what right do you have to judge? As long as the other persons "kink" is still safe sane and consensual to the two parties..we have no right to judge
<`Butterfly> Hello everyone thank you for today I had a really good time meeting you all that attended the picnic
<^^blush^^> how many of us came into this thinking.. there is NO way i would EVER do that... and now enjoy it!
<{autumn}_U_> well.....how about not commenting and maybe instead asking questions to try to better understand someone else
<{autumn}_U_> learn a little.....
<bottoms_up37> why do you need to comment to someone about their kink... if it isnt a positive or inquiring remark?
<|Karen> by judge I mean....what I think of their kink will affect how close I feel I can get to them
<dalian> i agree blush..i've felt that way myself
<fire{RB}> that is a ghood idea {autumn}_U_ to ask questions directly, I know myself I would rather be asked outright about my kinks then be the discussion of tow other ppl who have no idea..
<^^blush^^> i think its safe to say we all have at one point or another dalian :o)
<Kilted_One> what if they are doing something that in our opnion is no SSC bottoms??
<|Karen> I don't condemn....or try to change....but if they're doing something I find repulsive, I'm unlikely to seek them out as a close friend
<`Butterfly> good evening Sir Lancelot how are you doing?
<{autumn}_U_> you know fire....most people feel that way and never try it out...lol
<bottoms_up37> then call the police or stay out of it?
<{autumn}_U_> I learned something about that Karen
<fire{RB}> Karen that is so wrong..look at the Vanilla world how many ppl consider us to be repulsive...
<Mltdwn> KO asked a good question
* zee{JR} don't assume ANYTHING.. till you know the whole picture!!!!
<Mltdwn> <Kilted_One> what if they are doing something that in our opnion is no SSC bottoms??
<fire{RB}> I am open even in the vanilla world and one i disclose my "kink" and they start asking questions, they find that it is not as repulsive as theythink..
<Kilted_One> doesn anyone believe that the "commenting" can lead to other negative thinking??
<Mltdwn> not jsut for bottoms
<{autumn}_U_> i think if your going to judge someone, judge who they are, are they psycho?....are they hard criminals?.....or are they just different.....
<|Karen> I do have a right to choose my friends on my own moral and ethical grounds, fire..
<fire{RB}> I dont know Kilted One, see to me as long as there is two consenting adults..then what they do..it their own business
<^^blush^^> i agree with fire on that one
<bottoms_up37> who judges what is SSC?
<dalian> me too
<|Karen> I'd point out that you are now judging my point of view....something you say you condemn...
<fire{RB}> true Karen but you just said you judged them based on their kinks..
<{autumn}_U_> who?
<|Karen> sure....sometimes Kinks, sometimes personality....*shrugs*
<|Karen> sometimes philosophy...
<{autumn}_U_> if i dissagree with someone that doesn't mean i judge them....i firmly believe in agree to dissagree....
* canplay thinks Karen can judge her friends anyway she likes too
<|Karen> thanks canplay :)
<Kilted_One> what if you are observing the scene only and you dont know the players...how would you know it was SSC....and what if they were doing something that squicked you? how tolerant of the scene would you be??
<fire{RB}> I think we all need to be accepting of what other ppl enjoy and if possible put our own biased opinions aside due to Televison and mass media most individuals have already formed an opinion on our world and our lifestlye, we involved in the community should be most guarded about judging others for their kinks
<{autumn}_U_> i might be cringed by it.....but i wouldn't judge the players
<{autumn}_U_> to each his own
<Kilted_One> can we be too tolerant??
* zee{JR} is firm in her belief.. unless you know the whole picture.. you can't judge one way or the other
<fire{RB}> Kilted_One if it sickens me,..i leave...
<dalian> it would be my choice whether to continue to watch or participate...most of the time i would want to learn more about why i would find it repulsive to begin with
<{autumn}_U_> i think there is a line between tollerant and careless in how we let it affect us.....but again....that is about judgement
* Kilted_One smiles and agrees wiv fire..good move...less clean up to do ;)
<bottoms_up37> KO, there is abuse in the vanilla world and in the bdsm world.... how do you handle it in either world? 'suspected abuse' or not, i mean
<zee{JR}> would love to here from the Sirs tonight on this subject
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed zee
<Kilted_One> how should we handle it bottom?
<^^blush^^> i have to admit... when i first came to this community i was amazed at how NONjudgemental everyone was.. yet the more i got involved, the more i realized that there is still just as much judging of others going on here as anywhere else.. We are all human, so i don't think we can really get away from it
<fire{RB}> We are adults and can make and base our own opinions and in doing so, if our opinions are degratory we can keep them to ourselves..
<`abi> anyone ever feel they've been judged by the community?
<fire{RB}> god abi all the time
<glory{Mlt}> me
<|Karen> Nocturnal` says that just because you personally don't find what someone does appealing and would rather not associate with them on a personal level because of their actions does not necessarily make you judgemental, judgemental would be to condemn them ..
* slutkat nods
<|Karen> ...to others
<zee{JR}> yes.. by some abi
<dalian> yes, i think i'm judged at times
<|Karen> abi....I feel it frequently
<Kilted_One> do we feel that there is too much judging by the community at large?
<`abi> so, if nobody is judgemental...who's doing all this judging?
<Jaz^> Ido*233.9
<fire{RB}> I have told ppl that I believe our own community is one of the worst for not being accepting to peoples kinks...
<^^blush^^> no more so than in any other community KO imo
<bottoms_up37> KO, if i suspect abuse in a vanilla relationship... i have reported it to the police in the past. and i have talked privately the abused party and offered help. That may be the wrong thing, i am not sure. The most i could say for a play party if i suspect abuse is to get the DM to question the person and ask them for their safe word?
* fire{RB} rubs her eyes..not yet having slept..looks at her homework
* Kilted_One nods to bottoms
<|Karen> good question abi :)
<fire{RB}> good idea bottoms_up37
<fire{RB}> no idea abi...something maybe we all need to think about
<LrdTZ> why wait for a DM to end what you suspect as being abuse in a scene.
<Kilted_One> no other opinons on how well we judge or not judge in the community??
<zee{JR}> imho... when we judge it comes from not understanding or fearing what we are seeing or feeling
<{autumn}_U_> i guess i feel the same about being judged as judging....to each his own.....im sure lots of people would be wayyyyyyyy outta there comfort zone if they only knew.....lol
<dalian> for me personally, i think it may stem from the fact that i am not as close to the community as i would like
<fire{RB}> Sir LrdTZ how do we know it is abuse we are not part of the scene..
<bottoms_up37> thats the responsibilty of a DM... or every scene could be interrupted because of different peoples attitudes for play.. and the end of play parties is a result
<Kilted_One> would it not be prudent to use the DM TZ, specially if you "only suspected"??
<LrdTZ> you don't so why would a DM
<fire{RB}> the Dm can stop and ask..ensure both parties are consenting
<|Karen> I think you're better off keeping a distance, dalian....
<zee{JR}> some judge me for being a slave... or for enjoying the endearment of slut.. yet if they understood why i found pleasure in it perhaps they would understand more of me
<kathryn_kw> but then they need to get to know you
<|Karen> the closer you are to the community, the more you leave yourself open to....gee,...judgement
<kathryn_kw> and how many are willing to do that before making judgements ?
<dalian> i don't know Karen...the closer i get to know ppl the more comfortable i feel ;)
<zee{JR}> ahhh and that is the scary part isn't it kathryn_kw!!!
<LrdTZ> DM are there to control any breach of the party rules, to stop a scene if it is obviously abusive.
<bottoms_up37> TZ, there are types of play that are considerend 'normal' at play parties and if you are planning on doing something that is shocking or worrisome, etc.. you can warn the DM before hand. at least that will help the scene from not being interrupted by others concerns
<fire{RB}> I get judge for being a slave..and until ppl ask me..and i can inform and teach them..then i dont value their opinions as nile
<Kilted_One> do you see this as wrong zee (that others judge you)?
<Sweetone{LT}> but those terms are only relevant to you and your Master anyway zee
* `abi wonders how people react to being judged....does it change anything?
<zee{JR}> to get to know someone deeper than the perverbial hello..
<fire{RB}> good question abi..i withdraw from the scene
<glory{Mlt}> sure abi...
<fire{RB}> withdraw from the community
<zee{JR}> wrong KO Sir?.. no just sad for some stay a distance from me because of it
<glory{Mlt}> we arely do public/pvt parties now
<kathryn_kw> if the judging tends to austrazice people they will be driven away from the community
<glory{Mlt}> rarely even
<kathryn_kw> at least publicly
<|Karen> Nocturnal agrees with bottoms :)
<bottoms_up37> fire, i get judged as NOT being a slave or a sub... lol... works both ways *chuckles*
<fire{RB}> I think as people we are our own worst enemies..we judge ourselves harshly..to find acceptance within ourselves is difficult to say the least
* bottoms_up37 tells Karen to give Noc a goose for me ;)
<Kilted_One> does anyone think that lack of tolerance in our community has lead to anything negative/postive and if so what??
<fire{RB}> and then in turn to have to deal with the judgement of others within the community..makes the siutation twice as bad..i withdraw,,,
<|Karen> I react to being judged by the community by withdrawing from it a bit...
<zee{JR}> Sweetone{LT}.. you are right sis.. so in that they are not openly accepted by A/all.. should i refrain from using them except with Master?
<Kilted_One> does anyone think that lack of/too much tolerance in our community has lead to anything negative/postive and if so what??
<|Karen> not necessarily physically...
<`shado> the biggest negative is people withdrawing from the community because of it
* fire{RB} nods yup shado agreed
<dalian> it's a constant struggle to continue to try and get to know people...and i get tired of having to defend my position as that of a slave...but in the end if people don't like my views, they are free to think what they want...life goes on and so do i
<Sweetone{LT}> perhaps if people thought in terms of power exchange, then the terms and judgements of slave/sub etc would be moot
* bottoms_up37 sees alot of defensive and offensive people in the community due to lack of tolerance for each of our choices of lifestyle/play
<|Karen> Nocturnal pinches bottoms arm for the suggestion ;)
<bottoms_up37> eeep!
<kathryn_kw> and also possibly pasing on the negaativity to others as well
* BernieRoehl agrees with shado
* BernieRoehl thinks a bit
<zee{JR}> is there such a thing a too much tolerance?
<fire{RB}> I know i have withdrawn many times from the community due to lack of tolerance..damn i am doing that now..
<Kilted_One> is there anyway that we can safe guard against too much/too little
<glory{Mlt}> lol KO.....thats easy....
<Kilted_One> what can be done to protect against that shado??
<zee{JR}> discussions like these KO Sir
<bottoms_up37> what can happen with too much tolerance? people will only play to their own personal limits... so what negative could happen?
<`abi> perhaps by believing in ourselves KO
<glory{Mlt}> ppl should simply keep their opinions to themselves :)
<zee{JR}> going to conventions.. learning.. experiencing.. exposing ourselves and most of all...WANTING to
<fire{RB}> agreed glory
<`shado> mostly be hoping that people will eventually learn respect
<slutkat> human beings seldom keep their opinions to themselves ;-)
<Kilted_One> good point abi and zee, so how would we express that "inner belief" so that others were affected in a positive manner??
<kathryn_kw> by example
<kathryn_kw> :)
<fire{RB}> then if they cant keep their opinions to themselves at least be constructive in them
<zee{JR}> agreed `abi and not allowing those that disagree keep us from the community
<canplay> if everyone kept their opinions to themselves, i may never learn anything
<slutkat> good to aim for fire, easier said than done tho...
<zee{JR}> good point canplay
<`forbidden> i think when people see things that they don't understand or aren't familiar with they should ask questions to help become more informed before they judge people
<kathryn_kw> exactly forbidden
<Kilted_One> does anyone feel that these "opnions" and not the judgements are worse as far as the community is concerned?
<Leathersmith> i'm sorry but i would have problems being comfortable around folks messing with kids, animals and shit. no amount of reasoning will get me over that.
<fire{RB}> I guess my withdrawla from the community stems to the fact that I get tired of defending my position or my kinks or my choices..and in the edge..because of an over booked life and needed to cut back someone the community is the first to go..
<canplay> there are good ways and not so good ways to expresss our opinions, in a not so threatning or judgmental ways
<kathryn_kw> depends on who is expressing them :)
<zee{JR}> i think KO Sir.. it comes from within yourself..like abi said.. beleive in yourself and the peace and happiness will show others
<LrdTZ> Judging ppl drives wedges into a small community and I have seen a lot of good ppl just walk away from the scene and take with them years of experience and knowledge.
<fire{RB}> Leathersmith kids and animals are not consentual
<`shado> i do not feel that the people withdrawing are doing so because of a self esteem problem...
<bottoms_up37> LS, if those things offend you... you dont go to a play party that allows it, right?
<dalian> we rely on this community for a sense of foundation in this lifestyle...
<Sweetone{LT}> fire, no one should ever have to justify or defend their interests in the lifestyle
<BernieRoehl> I have a question regarding the concept of community...
<canplay> fire? are you defending what does not need defending?
<Kilted_One> can you give us some examples canplay?
<Leathersmith> i think there are "over the limit" kinks, i do admit to now having lots of interest in things it thought were NO NOs a few months ago though
<fire{RB}> agreed shado lol i have no slef esteem problems its a matter of cutting out a level of stress and if the community is creating stress in my life due to judging and not be accepting..then i cut it out...simple process
<BernieRoehl> I've heard a number of people say they feel they've been judged by "the community". That puzzles me a bit... the community does not have a mind of its own. At most, someone might feel judged by a few specific members of the community... which is, I think, inevitable -- we can't prevent *everyone* from being judgemental.
<zee{JR}> nor who they are.. shouldn't have to defend or justify who you are or what your kinks are
* |Karen might debate the consensuality of animals..
<|Karen> but not tonight perhaps...
* zee{JR} agrees with BernieRoehl Sir
<kathryn_kw> :)
<fire{RB}> animals are consenual?
<Kilted_One> can we coach and prevent some Bernie??
<fire{RB}> ~shrug~
<Sweetone{LT}> who knows....today's limits are tomorrow's fun...keep an open mind
<zee{JR}> then W/we are judging the community as a whole based on a few people
* canplay smiles at Karen
<fire{RB}> that is true zee{JR}
* zee{JR} smiles to Sweetone{LT} and nods
<BernieRoehl> I would hope so, KO. But I think we should also give people the strength to withstand the "judgements" of other individuals.
<bottoms_up37> Bernie, i was in the new york community for about 6 months or so... and never ONCE heard i wasnt a submissive... i was in our community and heard it very quickly. Judgments ;) ... over time i say bottom cause i am tired of hearing the comments *Grin*
* `forbidden finds people will always be people.... no matter how long you discuss it
* |Karen bites back on an arguement out of place here
<`forbidden> there are one's that judge and throw their views all over
<Kilted_One> good point Bernie is there ways that we can strengthen the ones being judged to "handle" this
<`forbidden> there are one's that accept things and like to learn about that which they know nothing of
<BernieRoehl> My guess, bottoms, is that you heard those comments from just a few people (out of literally hundreds)
<canplay> i enjoy hearing others views
<`shado> anyone can be judgemental it's all in how it's handled
<`forbidden> i don't have a problem with people sharing their opinions or views.....
<kathryn_kw> part of it is.. well your kink may not be my kink but thats ok
<bottoms_up37> hmmmm more than a few but not hundreds... true ;)
<fire{RB}> agreed shado..we can be rude and obnixiuos showing little compassion or understanding or we can be kind and attnetive..
<`forbidden> what i do have a problem with is when they try to push 'their' opinions onto me
<Kilted_One> is being outspoken bad? should we not encourage it?
<`shado> constructively & respectfully tho forbidden
<`forbidden> and mold me into what they 'think' is right
<zee{JR}> and remembering kinks can be large ones or subtle ones.. things you may not even realize are kinks
<`shado> there is a difference between outspoken & ignorant KO
<fire{RB}> nod nod nod
<BernieRoehl> I think part of the answer, KO, maybe simply to befriend people who feel judged, and offering our support (even if we don't necessarily share their tastes)
<LrdTZ> we need to incourage it KO but it has to be based on fact not fiction or 'its not for me so its wrong"
<kathryn_kw> and obnoxious
* fire{RB} wiggles her toes
* zee{JR} thinks a definition of kinks is in order to see if W/we are on the right page
<Kilted_One> you refer to the method used to be outspoken shado??
<Kilted_One> and not just lacking knowledge?
<Sweetone{LT}> if there is this much dissention among the 'community' should we work on building tolerance amongst ourselves before educating nillas?
<`shado> yes KO....one can be outspoken in a respectful way or in a harmful way
<LrdTZ> A kinks is any thing that turns your crank zee{JR}
<fire{RB}> good point Sweetone{LT}
<Kilted_One> how would we do that LT??
<fire{RB}> how can we encourage the vanilla to be acceptance when we cannot be
<bottoms_up37> agreed fire
<Sweetone{LT}> exactly fire
<LrdTZ> if you have an opinion on a topic you should understand the topic before talking about it.
* zee{JR} agrees with LrdTZ
<fire{RB}> but how can you understand the topic if you dont bring it up for discussion
<spiritsong> why do we need to "educate" " vanillas"" if we are accepting ?
<`abi> I'm not sure I agree with that LrdTZ...everyone is entitled to an opinion...but I'm not obligated to be influenced by their opinions
* canplay nods to abi
<LrdTZ> There was a very large group in Ottawa a year ago that was very excepting on "just about anything" it broke up because of a kinkm,
<zee{JR}> be it a name.. speech.. scene.. toy.. clothing.. hair..if it feels good then it is a kink...lol
* fire{RB} giggles at spiritsong..well sis when Master comes in hmm 18 days..lady downstairs has got to know i screaming in pleasure not pain ~grin~
<BernieRoehl> Interesting question, sweetone. However, there's no reason why the two efforts can't continue in parallel
<fire{RB}> or she be calling the police lol
* spiritsong grins
<LrdTZ> abi yes they are entitled to there opinion but if they understand the topic then their opinion may be different than just saying "I have not done it so its wrong"
<BernieRoehl> There are people who say that Canada shouldn't be sending aid to developing countries, because we haven't solved all our own problems yet. If we were to wait until all of our problems are solved, we would *never* help anyone else.
<Sweetone{LT}> that's true Bernie...but how can we promote something that is itself in turmoil?
<`abi> nothing to say opinions can't change LrdTZ ...
<Kilted_One> are we in turmoil??
<fire{RB}> and how can we promote when a portion of our own community are not accepting of others
<BernieRoehl> I don't see the turmoil that you do, sweetone. I see people with differing opinions, but that's quite different from "turmoil"
<LrdTZ> agreed abi but the damage they can do to a community before hand could be unchangeable.
<bottoms_up37> maybe one can think of judgemental or pushy opinionated people as bullies... and what you are to do with them is ignore them... if they dont get the reaction they seek, they tend to back off? if we just believe in ourselves and our kink and dont react to those that try to push our buttons... we can gain strength as a community?
<Kilted_One> but fire no matter what we do how good we are at teaching is there not always going to be some that are not accepting of others
<zee{JR}> why do we judge? is it out of an uncomfortableness that it makes us feel?
<fire{RB}> i dont see "turmoil" either what I see is a community tryng hard to understand whom we each are and in doing so we jufdge other ppls kinks based on our own experience...
<`shado> opinions ....imo are not personal attacks and i have seen alot of that within this community...
<`abi> not if we remember that *we* are the community LrdTZ....there is a ripple effect to selfconfidence
* Jaz^ agrees with shado
<zee{JR}> perhaps it is the uncomfortableness within us that is what we should be looking at.. why it makes us feel that way
<LrdTZ> sure and if your being told all the time that your kink is not right your selfconfidence could be damaged or you just back away and the community loses another body.
<fire{RB}> Yes Kilted_One agreed but that acceptance in this kind of community is amazing..man Sir..we are all kinky no matter how you look at it....so i would assume we would be more tolerable...
<Jaz^> It is a great shame that many ub the community seem to be so judgemental especially when it comes to scenes and play
<kathryn_kw> an opoinon is good.. i can live with that but .. if i see its my way or the wrong way.. i get a tad annoyed :)
<Kilted_One> but is one persons "opnions" not possibly seen by another as and "attach" shado??....is the line not a very thin one?
* zee{JR} dares to say that sometimes that same thing that tweaks us, we would deeply like to experience ourselves
<kathryn_kw> at times :)
<dalian> that's very true zee
<LrdTZ> agreed zee{JR}
<`abi> that's the key LrdTZ ... having enough selfconfidence to know that your own opinion about what you do and who you are is far more important than anyone who may be trying push you out of the community
<`shado> it is KO and far too often it is crossed
<bottoms_up37> if you believe in what you are doing... cant you just tell the person to shut up and continue along your way? we are empowered adults now.. we dont need to accept 'name calling'. i think we need to find our inner strength
<Sweetone{LT}> does every post or opinion need to be prefaced by these are my opinions KO?
<zee{JR}> and that can be scary to face for some of us
* fire{RB} erases the remark
<LrdTZ> Good but that does not happen a lot abi. some don't have the confidence and they back away before they can get it.
<Kilted_One> and what would be wrong with that Sweetone??
<Sweetone{LT}> should the people responding to such things not respond to the opinions of the issue rather than resort to personal attack?
<kathryn_kw> not necessarily but we should take owenership of our own statemwnts and not make them a blanket one
<kathryn_kw> :)
<fire{RB}> agreed kathryn_kw
<`abi> how do you think they could find it LrdTZ?
<fire{RB}> ownership and responisbilty
<kathryn_kw> exactly
<`aqui`> More then anything else I dont think this just pertains to "this" community....I think its a matter of stating ones opinion without infringing it on someone else..
<LrdTZ> confidence comes from understanding and being nurturched(spelt wrong) and learning things.
<Kilted_One> can they not bee seen as the same thing Sweetone?? is the line there not also very thin between answering and giving opnions and "Attaching"
* `abi nods to LrdtZ....correct .... and that is always going to come from at least 80% of the community...the trick is to listen harder to them than to the 20% who are telling you that what you are doing is wrong
<bottoms_up37> you know how school yards sometimes have 'monitors' or helpmates? how about something like that in the community for the people who dont have the self confidence to tell someone to 'shut up'? ...in the playground kids go to them to get the bullies off their backs
<fire{RB}> confidence comes from within oneself..no one can bring you confidence
<Sweetone{LT}> no, many times they are not even close KO...
<luv2tzu[FEI]> good point kathryn_kw
<`aqui`> so true fire
<`abi> you're right fire...it does...but LrTZ is also correct...it can be nurtured
<LrdTZ> yes but abi you know and i know that the 20% are lots louder than the 80%
<zee{JR}> `abi.. do you think submissives are more sensitive to wanting to please E/everyone or having E/everyone like them or understand them.. then a Dominant?
<fire{RB}> but it has to be there be for it can grow
<`abi> yes they are LrdTZ ... but not so loud that the 80% can't be heard if you're listening
<canplay> i think having confidence is the need to not tell someone to "shut up"
* fire{RB} applauds canplay
<SkyDom> canny....you go girl....:)
* Kilted_One thinks that maybe a good way to determine who the 20% are ...by volume??
<`abi> not necessarily zee...in some ways I think submissives can be happier knowing that if they are pleasing themselves and their Dominants then it doesn't matter a damn what others think
<fire{RB}> if you are confident and happy and content in you choosen lifestlye..then to hell with what everyone else thinks
<LrdTZ> agreed abi. but I have seen to many cases where the 20 win out and subs and Dom's just leave. It happens more on mailing list but if it happens threre or here then there gone from where they can really learn it.
* fire{RB} yawns
* zee{JR} nods pondering the depth of `abi statement
<Sweetone{LT}> and more and more go underground
<luv2tzu[FEI]> that's what it should be `abi
<Kilted_One> so we have a personal attack Sweetone...how do you handle it in a positive manner to prevent escalation and show that it has been seen as an attack??
<LrdTZ> and abi if you can live by that statement then good for you.
<`abi> every day LrdTZ ... none of us is immune to judgement ... we all get our turn
<LrdTZ> your right there abi. that is for sure. and my attitude is like me for me or the hell with you.
<bottoms_up37> i think there will always be people that attack or push your buttons cause they dont agree with what you are doing... at work, vanilla or bdsm. the people that leave our community because of it run into the same problems at work or social situations or the vanilla world. I dont think we can stop it from happening, its their own reactions, not just in our world
<Sweetone{LT}> i think alot of it boils down to manners KO...
* `abi chuckles...well, at least I'll have alot of company :)
<dalian> i agree with abi, cept what about those who are single and have no Dom to concern themselves with...being new to the scene and trying to fit in can be difficult...i want to learn and experience from a wide variety of people, and perhaps because i am submissive..i struggle with trying to please everyone at the same time
<bottoms_up37> ohhh Sweetone... i like that ;))
<Kilted_One> back to and earlier suggestion....(loosly speaking) would we be better off if we had "mentor" style ppl that could be approached if one felt slighted?
<Sweetone{LT}> ty :)
* zee{JR} smiles at Sweetone{LT}.. touche sis!
* fire{RB} pleases her Master...period
* |Karen nods to dalian
<|Karen> I understand that...
<bottoms_up37> dalian...thats why i suggested 'hall monitors or play ground monitors' *Grin* ... people who are willing to help talk or defend those that need it ;)
<fire{RB}> and if she displeases someone..they can take it up with her Master
* `abi nods to dalian ... yes, I imagine there is an impulse to try to please everyone ... but perhaps it's most important to remember to please yourself
<bottoms_up37> I would say yes KO
* Kilted_One nods to Sweetone...but sometimes ppl are required to be shown that they have been disrespectful in a positive way...some dont even know that they were disrespectful
<LrdTZ> there are lots out there alreay bottoms_up37 but what makes them better than anyone else.
<`shado> personally i think manner was taught in kindergarden and people should start remembering how to use them
<bottoms_up37> only one thing TZ... they are willing to stand up to a person and say... please keep your opinions to yourself..you are upsetting so-and-so
<LrdTZ> Sure but that takes us back to the topic. they have the right to express there opinions. Or that is what i'm seeing here.
<`aqui`> The only problem with that then is that so-and-so never learns to stand on their own 2 feet
<Kilted_One> is that no just hiding behind someone bottoms?? Could the mentor not do more that that??
<BernieRoehl> Interesting idea, bottoms, but I'm not sure anyone would pay attention. In my high school, we all laughed at the hall monitors. :-)
<bottoms_up37> lol Bernie
<canplay> i am in a chat room that has Protectors for those without a Master, perhaps some Doms could take that role on in real
<Kilted_One> or be reminded sahdo??
* luv2tzu[FEI] smiles over at Bernie...reminiscing some of those thoughts..yep
<Kilted_One> opps shado sorry lass
<bottoms_up37> the ideal world is that you dont give a shit what others think..
* BernieRoehl smiles
<spiritsong> the real world is that it matters
<bottoms_up37> but people do and get caught up with being defensive or hurt or angry
* |Karen doesn't want a Protector....
<`aqui`> if people used a lot more "tact" in their speech....would solve a lot more problems...
<kathryn_kw> possibly we could let subs-slaves-bottoms know and support them that they do have the right to say no.. to disagree etc.. a lot of us were told that we have to obey.. etc.. sorts of puts us in a mindset not really open to standing up for ourselves
<bottoms_up37> you find what you need to deal with it ... someone to lean on, someone to fight your battles, or some help NOT to let it affect you
<canplay> Karen, you do not need one *smiles*
<`abi> perhaps people need to learn to seek out support for themselves...my experience has been that this is a very supportive community...any time I've needed an ear or a shoulder I've always been able to find one
<|Karen> I find the whole idea demeaning and disrespectful of my adulthood
<kathryn_kw> or we are considered brats, troublemakers etc ?
<LrdTZ> why is that statement geared to subs-slaves-bottoms kathryn_kw Doms have the same problems.
<zee{JR}> exactly `aqui`.. what sweetone said.. manners and tact
* |Karen smiles at canplay 'thank you'
* BernieRoehl agrees with abi
* BernieRoehl has also tried to provide support for others when they need it, and to be that shoulder
<Kilted_One> is there any thoughts on the fact that we are living and "extreme" lifestyle and therefore are more extreme in everything we do..including opnions and judging so we will always have this situation??
<kathryn_kw> just an example LrdTz but Dommes theoretically are the ones in .. dare i say it ? " control " :)
<|Karen> if we 'protect' the subs/slaves/etc who are unsure of themselves, or hell, even shy Doms, they will never learn to stand up for themselves
<`shado> soory KO....respect & manners should be part of it no matter what the lifestyle
<LrdTZ> sure of what hey do with "their" sub but not others.
<spiritsong> but are they not judged more really
<BernieRoehl> Some of the judgement can also come from rivalries, petty jealousy, and so on
<Leathersmith> i'd have to say when i have sought advise, the community has responded very well, very helpful.
<luv2tzu[FEI]> it doesn't have to be LrdTZ...whether it be Dom/mes or subs/..etc... everyone needs some ear from time to time and its comforting to know there are people within to discuss their questions/ideas, etc. to.
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed shado
* fire{RB} looks to spiritsong..damn granola
* spiritsong giggles
<dalian> i have to say, and happily so, that when i really needed to discuss something of any nature...there was always someone in the community to bend an ear...my problem is having the confidence to just go up and ask!
<kathryn_kw> :)
* OT agrees with BernieRoehl
* bottoms_up37 looks at fire and laughs
<`abi> yep...I'd say so KO ... I don't think that many of us are drawn to this lifestyle because of the intensity of it ... it shouldn't then surprise us that people feel *intensely* about things
<bottoms_up37> good point dalian ;)
* |Karen would cheerfully toss newbies into the pool to sink or swim
<fire{RB}> and your right it did sit on the desk till today
* spiritsong nods
* fire{RB} looks to Karen..your joking right?
<`shado> abi...people have intense opinions no matter what the lifestyle
<bottoms_up37> rofl Karen... brat ;)
<`slutkat> well, thats a healthy attitude Karen... *NOT*
<`abi> ooops...I meant *are* drawn...not aren't drawn
<`aqui`> good point 'shado
<kathryn_kw> and quartered ? :)
<Leathersmith> that isn't a very tolerant attitude Karen
<SkyDom> you of the :how many women can ya get into a barrel, Karen....cum on....
<`slutkat> tarred..feathered?
<`slutkat> run out of town on a rail?
<`slutkat> ewww SkyDom...ICK
<luv2tzu[FEI]> yes `shado....regardless of the lifestyle...what you said should be a given!
<`shado> does being part of this lifestyle mean people forgo all respect & manners?
<SkyDom> well, ya can't just throw em in to sink or swim.
<^^blush^^> apparently some ppl do shado
<kathryn_kw> in my experience no.. but i have run into some who do
<LrdTZ> I for one would hope not `shado
<kathryn_kw> most are pretty good
<`slutkat> not funny SkyDom in light of 9 dead in the states....
<Sweetone{LT}> are some still trying so hard to justify their kinks to themselves they become very defensive of others opinions?
<`shado> because a person is submissive does that now mean that the word PLEASE & THANK YOU disappears from a Dominants vocabulary??
<`aqui`> perhaps Karen was doing exaclty as we just talked about.....answering her to something is "her" opinion..but not necesarily the rest of us...
<Kilted_One> so do we think that the lack of acceptance of others and their kinks is to do with lack of repspect and honour??
<SkyDom> that's my point kat
* bottoms_up37 smiles... i am willing to defend someone in need in our community or be a shoulder for them if they need that or help them find the support they need... thats the best i can do. i cant make others come to me for that though. some people dont know there are people out there to help or are too shy to ask for it
* `slutkat nods to SkyDom
<zee{JR}> something to think about Sweetone{LT}....
* luv2tzu[FEI] doesn't think so Sweetone{LT}...they shouldn't have to...wrong mindset
* |Karen isn't entirely heartless....
<Sweetone{LT}> then why be so defensive?
<`abi> no shado...I don't think intensity negates the need for civility...but I really haven't met many that I'd consider *uncivil*
<bottoms_up37> KO, you can respect the persons right to their own kink... and keep your opinion to yourself or express it politely
<Leathersmith> how about a Dear Abby type promoted in some of the mailing lists?
<bottoms_up37> what gives someone the right to attack others actions?
<|Karen> I just think that people need to learn how to stand on their own...not hide behind monitors, playground keepers, or Doms...
<`abi> sure Leathersmith ... as long as we don't spell it `abi ;)
<Leathersmith> LOL
<zee{JR}> sometimes Sweetone{LT}..at least for me.. there is a need to feel i fit in somewhere amongest the submissives in the community
* Kilted_One smiles at abigaille
* SirLancelot` looks at abil...hmmmm
<|Karen> I like Bernie's version of support...
* glory{Mlt} feels that too zee
<bottoms_up37> Karen, as i said earlier.. in a perfect world people would be strong and NOT care .. but this isnt a perfect world and some people need help now and again
<zee{JR}> not so much defensive as it is wishing people would understand me so i wouldn't feel an oddity
<fire{RB}> agreed bottoms_up37
* |Karen nods to bottoms...sighs
* `abi looks at SirLancelot` ... call me *dear* just once...and all bets are off!
<^^blush^^> i nkow that if ppl hadn't been so open and friendly and ready to give advice i would not be where i am today
<|Karen> I hate having my ideals comprimised by reality...
<^^blush^^> i for one am glad they don't all have that attitude
<bottoms_up37> lol Karen... lifes a bitch ;)
<SirLancelot`> how about hon, abi?
<luv2tzu[FEI]> well...i think some ppl come across as being rude, arrogant w/o manners and perhaps think that others don't know what they're doing...w/o thinking that ppl do what works for them.
<LrdTZ> all subs have atitudes and so do Dom/me's
* Kilted_One looks at his watch and says...official time is up...feel free to continue this as long as you like...thanks for the input and "opinions"....and I beleive that the answer like many problems.....lies in communication
<fire{RB}> it is draining isnt it zee{JR} to try to explain to ppl that your are a slave and why you are a slave...it doent harm my self confidence all it does to me is drain me or precious energy in explaining over and over and over again...
<bottoms_up37> luv2tzu, so what is wrong with the injured party or a
<bottoms_up37> ooops
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for a great job modreating, KO!
* `abi ^5's KO
<BernieRoehl> And thanks to everyone who showed up -- this must be a record turnout!
<Sweetone{LT}> thanks KO
<`abi> and vixen too, cuz she's probably helpin'
<luv2tzu[FEI]> thanks Kilted_One!
<BernieRoehl> (34 people!)
<kathryn_kw> :) or cd :)
<SkyDom> I gotta say that I agree with bots when she said, "ideally, ya just don't give a shit what other people think". Well, I don't dislike any of you folks in here but I think that LT's mail was pretty much on but that some of the responses were reasonable as well. But I think that a lot of the replies were a pile of bullshit, to use an agricultural term, and I hope that doesn't offend anyone....but if it does.....I don't give a shit
<bottoms_up37> luv2tzu, so what is wrong with the injured party or a 'defender' beign polite and talking to the person... explaining how their words are affecting them?
<zee{JR}> thank You KO Sir.. lively discussion it was
<|Karen> 35 people Bernie...counting the over the shoulder fellow here.. :)
* `forbidden slips into her corner and crawls under her chair
<luv2tzu[FEI]> absolutely nothing bottoms_up37...it's all how the words come across...not in an "arrogant" manner.
* bottoms_up37 smiles.... it was fun ;)
* `slutkat hands forbidden a pillow
* BernieRoehl smiles and nods in agreement with Karen's count
* jainey tosses cheesies to forb
<BernieRoehl> I've turned off the channel message, and I'm closing the log
* `forbidden takes the pillow and snuggles up quietly
* `forbidden hides the cheesies for later
<BernieRoehl> Next week's discussion will be co-moderated by Karen and Nocturnal, and the topic will be...
<BernieRoehl> "On the Nature of Nurture: the Influence of Societal Change on D/s Desires"
<canplay> thanks Kilted One ,, great job *smiles*