June 6 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

> tonight's topic is....."Training -- What Does it Mean?"
 good topic
 hi tvsubbie4you
 evening A/all
 hi tv
 hey there tru
 i'm hoping we can get views about training from sub and Dom/mes
> as far as i can figure....training is unique in content to each Dom...and depends on the attitude, skills and behaviour of the sub in His charge
> i have been in the company of Dom's who only really look to servitude....and others that are looking for overall obedience
> seems to differ with each and every one
 i think training can be based on each person's needs and personality...
> i agree tru
 each sub/slave is totaly difrent in training becouse they are frist a person and not every person likes the same thing
 something that i find training helps with is determining my needs and how i can benefit someone else's needs or wnats
 that was wants...
 I am not a good example for training as I am still learning to be a better Dom, with the help of my Mentor,Ms. Tiia
 exactly AL....there isn't an instruction manual on this that fits everybody
 but then i think You would be a good example of training Kirspin, because You ARE learning
> but even you are in training....so you  must be becoming more acutely aware of what you want, need and expect from a sub in the future...yes?
 Very true
 hello A/all
 that is verry ture kashina-  becouse when you train one sub you train yourself to what they like and dislike
 hello Justice, vixen
* vixen{KO} enters, waves, smiles warmly & listens intently
 the training i am receiving now is my first real training in regards to bdsm....it is helping me to define who i am and exactly what i have to offer
* kashina- smiles at everyone who just entered....thanking them for being here :)
 I do think that most of us will make mistakes along the way
> i find that each Dom trains specifically...to meet both His needs and that of his charge...
 isn't that what's called "experience", Kirspin? 
 Kirspin  you are right we would not be ppl if we did not make mistakes  right luvs?
 Yes vixen and I have realized one of my faults is after a session with my current sub is that I do not take the time to cuddle her, rather I leave her to her own decices, like going on the computer, I realize that I should not only cuddle, we should talk over what she likes and dislikes in a session
* luvs2btied luvs not feeling well away from keyboard
 mistakes are all part of the learning process Kirspin.....
 something i am NOT looking for is perfection!
> my first Master was strict...i was expected to respond favourably regardless of any personal discomfort i was feeling...He pushed...and i admit to rebelling
 sounds like a natural response
 My fault is that I am pretty easy going with any subs that I get to know for a session, I should be harder, but cant bring myself to be too mean!
 i have not had the opportunity to serve under a Dom/me or Master/Mistress yet.....my 'life' to date has been cyber.......until very recently that is
> i know now what was missing was His permission to discuss things...to be able to communicate my thoughts and feelings...
 there are a lot like you and i out there Kirspin  i am verry easy going too with alora
 but there are time when you have to put your foot down and just say that is that
 I, too, had a strict Master...one who would not listen to when his sub spoke to him..it was his way..or nothing
> it doesn't work for long like that....does it dd?
 it's the old addage......more bees with honey, eh?
 It sure doesnt..you just do more damage to the sub than anything
 That becomes abuse, not safe and consensual!
 Kirspin, why do You feel You "should" be harder on the subs under You?
* kashina- nods in agreement to dd and Kirspin
 I am not saying..all his training was bad..I did learn alot.but it was the bad you remember more than anything..and learn from it
<_Generic_> evening.
<_Generic_> hello Bernie :)
* kashina- smiles at Bernie and Generic as they enter
 I feel that if I am flogging the sub, that seems okay, but if I where to use the Cane, she objects and i guessI havent learned yet to determine just whAT she likes and dislikes, boy I do honour her safe word though and she has used it once in our last session
> what aspects of training do you see as 'absolutely necessary'? and what do you find the best way to promote these traits in your sub?
 When we are in a session, I do want her to address me as Sir or Master
 I also insist that she be in the kneeling position all the time
 but why Kirspin?  is it just a courtesy issue or is it much more than that?
 i'm curious to know from other Dom/mes....is it just a courtesy for You also?
 For the kneeling position, thats what I have been taught by my Mentor
 Kneeling and using honorifics in-scene can be (for some people) part of what defines the boundaries of the scene.
 hey bernie
> Sir is a title of respect once earned and only WHEN earned...Master is totally different IMO...reserved only for the One i am bound to
 hey Bernie
* vixen{KO} concurs completely with kashina
 I agree as well.  Certainly I wouldn't expect anyone to scene with me unless there was some basic respect being exchanged (both ways).
 Hey if you are spanking a sub, you can get her to ask you by addressing you as Sir for one more stroke
> or not Kirspin  **wink**
 respect must be earned it is not granted and must not be assumed
 true....but for those of us that enjoy CP and/or flaggelation...then sometimes more prudent means of training need to be in other areas of Domination.
 I think place names have not much meaning in a scene and I certainly would not disrespect my sub nor do I want her to call me Kirpsin in a scene either
> you would object to the use of  "Kirspin Sir"  ?
 No that would be okay too
* cyberbrat_ wonders about "Krispie"... ;)
 agrees.that respect must be earned..I will call someone Sir..if the situation calls for it..unless someone tells me otherwise, Ill do as I have been taught
 unless you do something to show me otherwise
 i tend to follow the "Miss Manners" rule...follow the lead of the Host....
 Often a good idea, tru.  When in Rome, as they say.
> training ... relates for the most part to both Dom and sub then....He learns what the sub responds to...both for punishment and satisfaction....and sub learns what is and is NOT acceptable and under what conditions
 hmmm....MissManners & the lifestyle....
> but how do you achieve this?  what techniques are used?
 i think a good example of what i am saying is DukeDom....everybody calls Him Dukey....He does not object....but Sir is used when required
 dialoge between two adults!
 training has to relate to both sides of it kashina....our lifestyle isn't a one way street...
 good point Soldier
 it is not a matter of technique... just basic communication
 common sense and courtesy....
> true enough vixen...but...rules can be tested and bend when loopholes are found...i know...i do it if i can find a way to
 There's a wonderful little book that I picked up in Chicago called "Miss Abernathy's Concise Slave Training Manual".  I recommend it.
 Sir.....about signing up for that library card.... :)
 i think as a sub, if i submitted to everything all the time....there would be no challenge and very quickly no interest
> if left without rules to follow...expectations to achieve...i test those fine lines when i can  ;)
 true or false: subs talk to subs, but do Dom/mes talk to Dom/mes regarding training, techniques etc 
* BernieRoehl smiles
 Yes, they do -- but not often enough, I suspect.
* Sirsin` is looking for a blonde.. sorta sub.. sorta intelligent... sorta named kashina...
 I find sometimes that ritual gets in the way of practicality.. the first few sessions are exploratory.. getting to know one another... this is a long term issue not a one night stand right.  In all relationships there is give and take and time smooths out many rough spots.. You should not expect complete sympatico in one session
 besides as a DOM I expect my sub to break the rules now and then.. and she expects to do so.. that is part of the fun
<_Generic_> hello Ruffles :)
 without rule breaking there can be no "punishment" right :)
 nor should one expect perfection from the other....i feel that is an unattainable and impractical goal
> and what IF the Dom does not catch the "rule-breaking" sub?
> or what if he does not check up to make sure a rule set IS being followed?
 that's where honesty steps in...
 oh come on kashina... what are you playing at
 ha ha... i agree soldier... 
 I would expect the submissive to report on any rules that were broken.  It's the honour system.
 they are more fun if they are bad... cause then we discipline em
<_Generic_> wb, luv.
* trufriend smiles at Bernie
 I have my sub keep a diary of her misdeeds
* ddesire_LJ smiles at Bernie
 what about a sub that has great difficulty writing these things down Kirspin?
* cyberbrat_ wonders why everyone is smiling at Bernie...besides the fact that he's so *cute*! :)
 not for lack of honesty...but maybe lack of self discipline
 you must remind yourself kashina that you are talking about a relationship between two caring adults.. not an employer employee one
* vixen{KO} is guilty of just that thing tru....my journal is lacking many times...
* BernieRoehl smiles back at tru and dd
 I give her lots of free time between sessions, so she has no excuse not to keep her diary up to date!
> i'm serious ... what is He does not check to make sure she has done exactly what He has requested of her...what if it goes several months and He has not...and she falls to the wayside with keeping up the practise?
 just that Bernie and i were on the same thought about honesty brat...
 then my dear kashina he is either not concerned with what she does or is simply not a real DOM
> who is in the wrong most then?  the sub for not continuing...or the Dom for not checking?
 perhaps the relationship is fading, or perhaps there are too many rules
 then He is not a good Dom....if He does not keep on top of things (pun not intended), there can't be much interest
> or perhaps she is testing to see if he remembers WHAT the rules are?
 ah good point ... too many rules... keep it simple 
 lol kash.... Doms are never wrong... mistaken maybe... but never wrong.. so .... YOU lose!
 I hope you are not serious Sirsin
 the only ones that are never wrong SirSin can also walk on water
 maybe the sub is doing that on purpose for attention ..I have know a few to do that
 ok, so Dom/mes are like customers (for anybody in the retail field) they're always right...even when they're wrong?
* kashina- can walk on water...but only come January ;)
 in the winter I can but I still make lots of mistakes
 i agree desire.. and it works..
 only two types of people that never make mistakes:  those who are dead and those who never do anything
 soldier and blk... yup... i KNOW i can be wrong... but it isnt her place to tell me that.. point it out .... ok.. tell... no
 We all make mistakes subs and Doms alike, we are only human and adults
> maybe the sub is checking to see if the Dom IS paying attention
 thank You Justice!  that's what i was waiting to hear!
 not all of us are adults Kirspin.....physically maybe....
 maybe that sub is in the wrong relationship and needs to express their concerns..good communication is a good part of healthy training
 agreed kashina...subs can test Doms as much as the other way around...we just don't lettem know
 if there is a train barrelling down on us I prefer she tell than point it out
* BLisS101 waves hello to everyone quietly
 pointing can be very imprecise, too.
* trufriend waves back to BLisS101
> i agree vixen...but i DID tell him at a later date...just to let HIM know that i was keeping account  ;)
 I think we have strayed from training here
* Sirsin` thinks a doms job is much harder than a subs... we must care for them... and ensure their safty... and expand them
 for the other subs here....what do you want out of training? what do you hope to learn? what do you hope to gain?
> i don't believe so Soldier...i do think that both parties are in training...or how to handle each other on this intimate a level
 the same questions for teh Dom/mes present this evening....if i may...
 realtime calls....please excuse me...
 they have a very difficult task, they must have the faith & trust in us To let us do it Sirsin
 It's been different in every relationship I've had, tru.
 tru wolfe.. but WE have to live up to that trust
 Some submissives want very strict and rigid training, which I'm quite willing to provide.  Others want nothing more than a few basic rules of conduct.
 aer there 'guidelines' that You use, then tailor them to each one's needs? 
 I agree that both parties need training but whether a DOM is ever wrong has little to do with training. Training begins at the start of the relationship with a set of mutual expectations, goals and training as the means to get there.
 honesty should be all one needs Sirsin
 I agree kashina any sucessful partnership needs two parties well versed in the area they choose to pursue
 And it can vary over time as well... I like the concepts of "short leash" and "long leash".
* BLisS101 groans
 can You explain those Bernie please?
<_Generic_> hello bliss :)
 well good night all... interesting discussion
<_Generic_> later, Soldier.
> night Soldier..thanks for attending  :)
 In "short leash" mode the rules of conduct are very precise and well-defined.  In "long leash" mode, a D/s couple might be indistinguishable from a vanilla couple.
 so are there certain times one would use these methods?
 or certain circumstances?
 Yes... it's a way to quickly adapt to circumstances.
 short leash, play party..long leash vanilla wedding
 Yes, exactly TW.
* kashina- squEEEEzes luv2tzu tight!
 could short leash be used in public though?
 thanks kash!
 hiyas folks...
 hello everyone...i know...shhhhhh! lol
 could short leash be used in public though?
 Not out in vanilla public, tru.  (Depending on how short the short leash is)
 how do You know when to apply "short leash" then?
* _Generic_ ponders.
<_Generic_> I thought that was answered? You feel your partner.
<_Generic_> how do you define body-chemistry?
* BernieRoehl notes that short/long leash isn't something I use currently, but I've used it often in the past
 i've seen subs with very prominent collars on in public...i watched a Dom and his sub eat dinner in a restaurant....no mistaking the roles there....in a vanilla world
 If we're lounging at home, I might use "short leash" to indicate the start of a scene.
 some people enjoy bdsm, outside of the bedroom, public play can be stimulating as well.
 good night everyone
 i'm trying to get people to talk about training Generic.......
<_Generic_> wb, sd.
* Sirsin` prefers a sub that is also an eaqual..
 thank you
> the response of different individuals to certain methods used would show acceptance or dissatisfaction with their conduct after use
<_Generic_> forgive me for saying so, but you're taking the wrong paths.
 once the rules are set... public submission  or humiliation can be part of the game
<_Generic_> I don't think there's a general formula.
> as in...someone who enjoys being spanked...could not be punished in this manner...no point to it
<_Generic_> more specific question could be helpful. 
 i agree Gen
* _Generic_ smiles.
 my closest friends in the scene..are bottoms and brats...no working with them..lol
 each to their own..
 lol finn
 for the other subs here....what do you want out of training? what do you hope to learn? what do you hope to gain?
 no kash..
 that isnt true...
 any more specific than that?!
-Ruffles^- sorry was mother called as soon as I came into the channel
-Ruffles^- but am back now..lol
 it was also posed to the Dom/mes in the room Generic
 nobody bothered to answer those specific questions
 if i want to punish AND encorage an attitude... spanking someone that like spanking works great
<_Generic_> I tend to consider myself one. So I felt this need to respond. I'm sorry you didn't get the answer to previous questions.
 trufriend...training...for me...was about becoming..better then i was...it was one of the goals of my training...i had others as well
 Night all and thanks kashina for moderating a hard topic!
 training=cumming on command...thats it
 If a submissive has certain things she wants to work on (in a self-improvement kind of way), a good Dom can help.
* _Generic_ laughs.
<_Generic_> bliss, you rock my world.
 bliss...not at all....but it's not a bad thing either!!
 thank You Bernie and daisy.....those are the things i was hoping to hear...
 cant convince me about training..sorry
* Ruffles^ chuckles at BLisS101
* _Generic_ grins at bliss.
 for me, who is somewhat new to the scene....i would want to find those outer boundaries..to be challenged mentally and physically to achieve my own possibilities
 then why come to the discussion bliss, if you're not interested in the topic?
 mmmmmmmmm  training was for me..the most wonderful rollaercoaster ride of my life..
> training can be looked at from several personal aspects tho ... can it not?
* Ruffles^ thinks that it is different in every relationship bliss...even the definition of training itself is different
 excuse me please....need to make a call
 very true Ruffles^
 ? trufriend
> from strict resolve....to just learning what would make your partner unhappy
 Hi all
<_Generic_> hello John.
  cant convince me about training..sorry
 Hi Generic
 In a sense, a form of "training" takes place in all relationships -- D/s or vanilla.  People learn each others needs, and adjust their behaviour to match.  The difference is that in a D/s relationship, the process is explicit and negotiated.
* BLisS101 doesnt see the correlation tru
 so i'm just asking why you would sit in on a topic you apparently have not interest in....just curious is all
 Isnt training supposed to be about learning about eachother needs, wants, limitations? and growing with eachother?
 i didnt say i had no interest in it, just that u couldnt convince me to be involved in training
> Yessssssssssssssssss   dd!  :)))
 hi all
* Ruffles^ agrees with ddesire_LJ
 dd is 100 % correct
 so you are targeting it specifically to one couple....what about learning from another that is not your specific partner?
 yes...very valid points there dd
 unfortunately ddesire_LJ, i feel that is the pretty version of "training" or bdsm relationships....
> i think all things in life that happen....teach us
 i agree kashina
 but i find there is a difference between training and learning
 is training not to help us get past obstacles and hurdles in our secure little existances??
 i would think thats courage and self-ac tualization tru
 true dd.. all life is experience.. and training.. the question is wheather ur learning what ur master wants u to
 yes kash...and it that respect teaching is always evolving..never ending
> i dont think that training and learning are that much different
 with the assistance of training from someone who offers their knowledge and their own courage?
 learning is growth growth allows you to achieve your goals sub or Dom
 learning is about expanding your views, training is about conditioned responses
 like a dog in obedience school
 yes Blksmith very valid...we are all learning..no one knows enough...growth is contual
 continual process even
 training and learning are opposite sides of the same card kash.. a master trains.. a sub learns.. toghether
 hello everyone I'm jumping on for a moment...
* BLisS101 groansd
 hiya kaat...hope you're feeling better
* kashina- waves at kaat :)
 before you can train you must learn (Sirsin)
 I don't necessarily agree with everything that is being said here...of course what is being said is appropriate to many different situations...but not all
 gotta go...loved the discusiion
 true blk
 ahh but i disagree Sirsin`...you are implying that a sub is not capable of ever training a Dom with new information that perhaps he/she is not aware of??? that is a learning process is it not...one in which either party should always be open to???
 but we all have to learn somehow... and training a sub.. is good training for a novice dom
 hiya luvs!
<_Generic_> hello luv.
 training is not always so cut and dry...or so pretty...I have done things for Master that were not necessarily either of our wants or desires...it was pure and simply control...for me to learn that I do what He desires...
 hello _Generic_!
> learning is a process of evolving...not unlike training....although both can be specific in nature
* kaat hugs luv hiya hon...sorry for not responding to your email yet...this is a very are visit for me
* Finn^m^ is almost affraid of what he could learn from kashina!..lol
<_Generic_> hello luv. And luv2. You decide about the honours :)
 no a novice Dom in my opinion could be dangerous to a novice sub BAD COMBINATION
* Guest14436 sits back and listens for a bit...to see where the conversation is at
 pardon _Generic_?
 lol.. geesh.. it is very philosophical tonight.. but yes kaat.. and yes luv2... a sub can train a dom.. and... sometimes it is the LESSON.. not the ACT that is important when a dom instructs a sub
 I dont think that's always the case Blksmith..
 me thinks thats education not training
 a novice Dom..could do more damage to a sub..and not even think that they are doing something bad..
 meghan is new to it..so am I..makes it fun...
 i dont know blk... but in my case.. i dont care either.. i am NOT a novice.. and i ALWAYs use a safe word
 beyond that.. a sub is mine
 often damage is not apparent until the day after
* Finn^m^ smiles at kashina..
 when a safe word is useless
* ddesire_LJ reaches for the tape..
* _Generic_ nods.
<_Generic_> bbl.
 that is were trust cums in blis
* Finn^m^ is more into spanking etc...dont take things too far..
 a sub is your's only if the sub CHOOSES to be
 which is what a dom/sub relationship is truely about
> excuse me please SirSin...but a sub belongs to 'herself' only...and submission is a gift bestowed...but it can also be revoked
 i dont see how trust can save a sub from damage
* Ruffles^ thinks it is better for any Dom/me to err on the side of caution when playing with a new partner Sirsin`
* Finn^m^ sends kashina a "herself" T-shirt..
 i guess we are too close to the election.. it seem this is politics night here
* Finn^m^ err's on the side of caution for sure..
> no politics here SirSin...fact only
 personaly when i am with a new sub i like to get to know them verry well befor i will play with them 
 philosophy perhaps
 not politics
* Ruffles^ does not think that if someone expresses a different opinion it is politics Sirsin`
 or each persons concept of what they feel the facts are kashina hon *grin*
 sound advice AL
 oh no ruffles.. 
 infact.. different oppions and methods shouldnt be attacked....
* BLisS101 wonders what doms do with subs who are hurt by the concept of training in general
 so why do i feel like i am defending myself? and my uses of subs... none of whom are force to submit?
 becosue first and formost a sub/slave is a person and has rights as a person and when they give you there submissinon it is a gift that is something spical and to be cherished 
 opinions and methods are free from attack but not critisism
> a sub does not belong to you because you THINK she does SirSin...only with her consent is she 'Yours'
* ddesire_LJ nods in agreement with Al 
 definately kash...
 if it isnt mutual.. it isnt anything
* Ruffles^ thinks it is about compatiability BLisS101....if it would hurt you....then they should not go there
* Sirsin` likes subs that get as much joy from serving me as i get from owning them... otherwise.. it is a waste of both our times..
* megs^F^ snuggles into Finn's lap
 bout time..lol
* BLisS101 owning...groans again
* Finn^m^ leases megs..the payments are very reasonable...
 lol finn
* Ruffles^ chuckles
 he's fibbing
 you own things subs are PEOPLE
 either find a common ground bliss...or move on to someone who IS compatable
 good evening DD and KO
 the payments may be reasonable but the brat-rates are enormous
 hiya tru
 yes tru, but the talk about training is that it is integral, and i challenge that presumption
* ddesire_LJ waves to Kilted_One and DukeDom
* Kilted_One waves back to ddesire
* ddesire_LJ giggles
 hey KO and DD
 not true blk... a sub owns her dom as much as a dom own his sub.. or a husband/wife own each other... 
 hiya AL
 i own a dog.. but it runs my life.. so who owns who?
 that compatablility is integral?
 husbands and wives "own" each other?????
> i disagree SirSin
 that seems to run against some of the points you made earlier Sirsin
 no that training is integral
 such as blk?
* Kilted_One is still wrestling with IRC
 i think it is.....are you willing to offer your training to a complete stranger or to one who just doesn't want it?
 lol kilt
 hellOo Kilted One Sir!
 geesh friend.. why would u want to train someone who doesnt want it?
 hiya daisy lass and how are you doing?
 what i am asking tru is what does a dom do when he has a sub/lover who is damaged by training?
 completely miserable Sir KO!!
 does he ignorte his belief that training is integral?
 hiya Mltdwn^jazmaia, ltns 
 or should he become flexible?
 what we were trying to find out here tonight bliss is what people consider training to be!  not necessarily if it is integral in a relationship
 hiya KO *wink*
 eeeeek blis.... training should never damage
 ok tru then i'll shut up
 would you like to discuss it further in pvt daisy ar are you OK???
 thanks for pointing that out
 if it does... love and concern is all that can help
* Ruffles^ thinks that goes back to compatiability BLisS101....flexiabilty is necessary in any relationship
> patience....training someone to recognize Your needs takes patience and commitment
 it does not take ownership
 wb Dukey having IRC problems too?
 i'll be ok Sir KO....just been one of those weekends...
 exactly Blksmith
 i'm not asking you to shut up bliss, i know better than to do a fool thing like that......it's just very frustrating when everybody tends to skirt around a potentially important issue
 i was doing anything but skirting around the issue, i was looking it full in the face
 mmmmmmm....training...can be a way of fully realizing what kind a submissive one wnats to  be...
 the fact that its so widely accepted in the bdsm community and so repulsive to me makes it an even more important issue
 i'm not pointing fingers at any one person bliss.....this is not personal
 coulda sworn u were pointing
* Sirsin` is sorry i upset eevery one.. i am too tired to argue.. have fun all... see u later
 for me, it is that i do not have a Dom/me, i wear no collar....but i DO want to learn about who i am, about what i want...
 so do i...and "training" ism not part of that learning
 wb Ruffles
 Good night Sirsin
 'member....when you point at someone there are three others pointing back at you
* Ruffles^ joins Kilted_Ones wrestling match with irc
 goodnight Everyone..i must retire as well..toodles..
* ddesire_LJ blows kisses to everyone
 and if there is a Dom/me willing to devote some of their time with me....to "train" me in some way, then i am gladly going to accept that
> training uncovers limits ...... does it not?
 trufriend...i never wore a collar during training i still do not wear a collar...although i have in essence graduated from training...
 is that so wrong?
 noit wrong for you tru, very wrong for me
 with every new Dom one takes, training is renewed
 it would open new doors and areas to be explored
 isn't that where "training" and learning cross paths?
 mmmmmm yes training for me...made me a better submissive...i've grown uo a little more..and i experienced many things..
 training never ends
 for both
 he's off now
 just beat the nickserv into submission Ruffles LOL
 mmm i am not sure i understand your negative feelings about training bliss??
* Kilted_One says that learning should only end when you die
 ok daisy....what is training to you?  not what does it mean but what is it specifically?!
<`forbidden> hi all :)
 why should it stop there Kilted_One?
 hiya forbidden....
* `forbidden smiles
* MsRuffles growls again
<`forbidden> hi Finn^m^ :)
* Blksmith pokes Finn you are awake
 cuase your dead Galaden!!!
 training to me is about..learning and growing not only as a submissive but as a person...
 is a life student, always open to learning and experience...BUT i fidn the concept of training repulsive but it is a matter of conditioned response, and i am not an automaton, i am not a trick pony, i am a human being
 sorry..but that gets into ones concept of death..whether death is the end..or merely a passing into another plane..
 training is about"here is a stimulus, here is how you will respond"...sorry but i cant live like that, i need freedom to respond in a different way anytime if i so choose
 that's what you "feel" though daisy....what i am trying to find out is what physically does training mean?
* megs^F^ giggles
 and by no means am i belittling the "feeling" part of it all.....because that is very important
* megs^F^ knows Finn has been awake this whole time
 Im awake Blksmith..but megs is a brat...training a brat is like trying to herd cats...
 I'll bet she does 
 I've heard of cats
* Finn^m^ glares at Blksmith..megs is a sweet pure girl...I think..
* megs^F^ giggles
 that's right sweetie
> time to close this discussion on Training for the night i believe....thank you everyone for attending  :)