June 4 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> I've started logging, and I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using raptor.ab.ca.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Public Play, Private Play... Differing Expectations". The moderator tonight is abi. Enjoy the discussion!
<Kilted_One> wb abigaille
<Selection> Leathersmith ladywolf is from niagra falls
<Leathersmith> hi kat hunnie :))
<BernieRoehl> Over to you, abi!
* katiias huggzzzles Leathersmith
<`abi> I guess that means we're starting :)
<Leathersmith> i know, we've met a few times (welland actually)
* BernieRoehl smiles at abi
<`abi> anyone care to kick off with their observations about different expectations for public and private play?
<Selection> don`t like public play
<`abi> why not Selection?
<^trufriend> i'll start by saying that i was absolutely terrified about the prospect of public play
<^trufriend> but i truly enjoy it now!
<LrdThomas> i have a question... and it pertains to responsibility. Not between the partners sceneing, but related to the crowd.....
<LrdThomas> my question is this...
<Selection> I feel that it is a private thing like sex , would not wish to do it public
* katiias quotes *to each their own*
<`shado> not even when the sub is an exhibitionist Selection ?
* Kilted_One thinks that both should be the same however there are those who get an extra "kick' out of the "audience" .....knowing that they are on show...that goes for both submissive and Dom/me
<^trufriend> what is Your question LrdThomas?
<Selection> yes, didn`t say I didn`t like to watch , by all means if people want to play let them
<LrdThomas> with the plethora of newbies attending many public events, is there a responsibility of the playing doms to tailor their scenes appropriately. What i mean, is for example, if i were to do a particularily harsh, sadistic uncaring scene with sweetone, and that is all the newbies saw, would they not leave, some thinking that is what power exchange is. They would not know that i also do caring sensual scenes, and is that the...
<LrdThomas> impression we want them to leave with?
<`abi> good question LT.....anyone have any thoughts on that?
<BernieRoehl> I think that's a valid concern, LT. However, if they attend a public or semi-public event, they will probably be exposed to a variety of different styles of play.
<|Karen> I think the newbies are responsible for themselves. They are adults, not children
<Selection> LRD Thomas I am new and was somewhat disturbed when I seen harsh a Dom was on his sub,
<MysticMz> Personally...I don't think the majority of Dom's showing off their 'talents' give a hoot
<^trufriend> the first play party i attended, i did not know what i would see...but i did know that there could be several different levels of 'severity'
<`vixie> i was the same tru
<Selection> However they knew what they were doing and I felt I cannot cast judgement
<^trufriend> i talked to people before attending, which helped me to understand what these play parties are for....
<Kilted_One> to answer LT's ?....yes they most likely would get squicked and yest they most likely would have that opinion...should you change?.....nope...do what you feel you want to do and go where you feel you want to go
<`abi> tru.....what changed your perception about public play?
<canplay> i am with Selection, i was new and was upset at first by what i saw with S/some
* MysticMz thinks that public play is a 'showcase'
<^trufriend> my feeling is that play parties are for showing off one's abilities, for playing with others that one might not normally get a chance to play with
<Selection> vixie was beside me when this took place and told me that they always played that hard
<BernieRoehl> And of course the opposite can happen, LT. I've had newbies come to an event and watch the scenes, and come away thinking how (to use their words) "tame" and "ordinary" it was.
* katiias was at her first play party 2 wks ago and it was pretty much exactly what she thought it would be *shrug*... wasnt squicked, wasnt upset, just observed...
<^trufriend> my perception changed when i actually had the opportunity to be involved in a scene or session publicly
<^trufriend> all i can say is.....WOW!
<`shado> public play is exactly that...public...and of course it is a showcase or people would not do it
* `vixie heard her name
<`vixie> what did i say Selection?
<canplay> my perception changed after a few days to calm and think it all over, realizing it is all consentual
<Selection> you said they always play hard and they`re still together, also,,,,
<`shado> you didn't realize that at the time canplay?
<LrdThomas> ya see, it is the public play forum, where i think we can do more teaching by example, than all the discussion in the world could achieve. Newbies seeing a sensitive caring and still hard scene, would do wonders for the perceptions of our culture. My opinion, is leave the harsh stuff for private. A good dom can still do much with his sub in public AND teach the community about responsible domination.
* `vixie scratches her head trying her best to remember
<Selection> you wanted to see some spanking didn`t you , well there it is
<`abi> KO...do you make any conscious changes to the way you play in public vs private?
<BernieRoehl> I think part of what we're seeing is a range of reactions in newbies, shaped by their own expectations from having talked to others, read books, etc. Depending on who they've spoken to and what they've read, they may expect something more intense or something less intense than what actually happens.
<`vixie> that's true Bernie
<canplay> but Lord Thomas, this one needed to see there are differences in play, i was only used to the sensitive kind (imo) and is happy to have witnessed another version of scene
<^trufriend> that holds true Bernie, in anything in life
<Kilted_One> none that I can think of...infact the only time I'm aware of the crowd.......is when I'm DM'ing....they are sort of a blur when I'm in my scene...
<BernieRoehl> True, tru :-)
* canplay knows that sensitive is relative to who Y/you talk to
<MysticMz> My play publicly and privately only differs..depending on the sub's reaction to each
<`abi> how much of a factor is exhibitionism...do you have to be one to enjoy public play?
<MsMonroe> Yes, I agree, Bernie. A friend who attended a pp with me was surprized at how much of a relationship was involved between those she watched....that is one differnce.
<BernieRoehl> I know some submissives find it more difficult to drop when they're in a public situation, whereas others find being "on display" adds a lot to the experience.
<^trufriend> i've never considered myself an exhibitionist abi....but i really get a rush from public play
<MysticMz> so true Bernie...
<Selection> Bernie I know how harsh it can be and that doesn`t bother me I was mainly surprised to see it happen in public, when the sub was yelling I was concerned for her but I don`t know her and I`m sure she was enjoying it but it did not sound like it
<`vixie> i thought that i would never be able to play in public...but have found that i zone the same in either venue...the crowd kinda goes away...*shrugs*
<Kilted_One> I think they biggest change would be "following the house rules" but then that would only dictate what scene I was going to do
<LrdThomas> Well, tis just my opinion.... that public play is an opportunity <better than any other>, to show the good side of our lifestyle.
<`shado> agree totally LT
<`abi> canplay...did you see a public venue as an intentional place to be exposed to new ideas ... or did it just happen
<BernieRoehl> Yes, KO, the house rules do change things in terms of what can and cannot be done in a scene
* ^trufriend looks at vixie.....doesn't go away sis if the Dom you are playing with is whispering in your ear about just how many are watching you! *S*
* `vixie chuckles....
<`vixie> never had anyone do that to me tru
<canplay> yes abi, i wanted to go to public play to see others forms and ideas
<MsMonroe> Can it really be determined who gets more enjoyment from a public scene? A dom, for demonstrating what he/she can do, or the sub, for his/her enjoyment of being controlled?
<^trufriend> that was my introduction to public play sis.....blindfolded and being whispered to about just how many were watching me
<`vixie> ohhhh
<`vixie> sounds interesting
<`abi> is that somehow different in public than in private MsMonroe?
<dalian> i actually liked being able to witness the many levels of play....and the relationships during and afterwards...gave me a real sense of the "connection" necessary between the two in play
<tvsubbie4you> public play, i think, affects us on a more primal level..we are all social creatures, and having others view such an act only serves to increase anxieites about one's own body, apperance, apportment...
<MsMonroe> I would think it would be different in public, 'abi.
<`abi> how so MsMonroe?
<Kilted_One> some play in public simply because they have no way of playing at home..for a whole host of reasons
<`abi> can it also decrease those anxieties tv?
<MsMonroe> Mmm, maybe not, 'abi. Maybe not.
<MysticMz> many of us, don't have the variety of equipment available and need the public venue for that
<canplay> Lord Thomas, You make it sound like All are capable of more then one form of scene,, is this true? or are some just the one way, as in sadistic in my eyes?
<`abi> katiias...you said the party you attended was just what you expected...what exactly did you expect?
<tvsubbie4you> i can't see that happening abi...we always have in the back of our heads, no matter how submerged, "am i doing this right?? how do i look?"..subs also don't want their appearance, or the way they carry themselves, to reflect badly on their Dominant
<katiias> social gathering with a play area
<^Dark^Angel^> one form of play ?.....now that sounds almost boring
<`vixie> i forget all about that tv when i play in public...and after when i have people coming up to me that i don't know, telling me how wonderful i am to watch...i stop thinking 'how do i look? did i do that right?'
<`abi> katiias ... did you have any expectations regarding the level of intensity of play that you might observe?
<Kilted_One> DA, I think what was meant was "one style' of play..ya know harsh or caring
<^Dark^Angel^> I see KO
<BernieRoehl> Yes, for many submissives it can be very... (not quite sure of the word I'm reaching for here...) validating?
<canplay> thank You , Kilted One,, that is what i meant *smiles*
<katiias> i presumed there would be varying degrees of intensity, as scenes progressed, and there were... so as i said, it was pretty much exactly what i expected..
<^Dark^Angel^> one thing I do different during public play (what little I have done) ,, is use a blindfold more
<`abi> why do you do that DA?
<LrdThomas> can't speak for others canplay, but i certainly do many different styles of scenes.
<^Dark^Angel^> because that control isnt as obvious in one on one play I think `abi
<Selection> All I seen was a lot of whipping and paddling , no candle wax ice or bondage(besides being tied to an apparatus) it was not that interesting or sensual,, maybe spice the scenes up if you wish to incorporate sensuality between partners to the newbies not just plai`ol whipping
<Kilted_One> and several different "types" of equipment as well dictates what style is used too
<BernieRoehl> One difference in public play is that there's sometimes a bit of time pressure. If there are lots of people waiting to play, one doesn't want to monopolize the equipment for the entire evening.
<^Dark^Angel^> but Selection ,,,, I cant say I have watched two Dom/me's ,, or 2 subs play the same ,,,, always something to learn
<`abi> What about pushing limits...best done in private or public ... or does it matter?
* Kilted_One says to Bernie...gotta leave that alarm clock at home
* BernieRoehl smiles at KO :-)
<MysticMz> is candle play allowed in a public venue?
<Selection> private unless it is experienced crowd
<katiias> pushing limits shouldn't matter if you like to play in either venue
<tvsubbie4you> it depends on the venue, MysticMz
<Kilted_One> if there are no fire regs that are being broken MM
* vixen{KO} votes for pushing limits in private unless they are related to being in public
<`vixie> good idea vixen
<Selection> I`ll bring the extinguishers
<^Dark^Angel^> I agree vixen{KO} ,,,
<BernieRoehl> I think it depends on the limit, abi. For example, if a sub has a "soft limit" about being exposed to others, and you want to gently push that limit, some light play at a fet night would be the way to go.
<Kilted_One> and I have allowed candle play at my partys that are private/public venues
* BernieRoehl nods at vixen "exactly"
<`abi> What role do observers in a public venue play?
* ^Dark^Angel^ quietly nods to the group and slips into the shadows
<Kilted_One> is there a thought that that the "limits will be pushed" simply because they are scening in public? ya know macho thingy for both
<tvsubbie4you> distractions, sometimes abi
<LrdThomas> i see very little other than cold amateur infliction of pain at most public veniues i attend. And to me that is a disservice to many, particularily the newbies.
<katiias> my *role* as an observer, abi, was to simply watch and learn... but that was for me, as a submissive, being instructed by a Dominant to attend and watch/learn
<`abi> so, for some...observing is actually a way of being an active participant
<BernieRoehl> Yes, abi -- I think that's true
* katiias nods
* vixen{KO} sits and listens intently to LrdThomas's thoughts and hopes that He embellishes U/us with some suggestions to avoid such a disservice
<Selection> I have a question it may be out of subject I don`t know,,,,the police do not need someone to press charges to press charges themselves ,,, why do they leave the public scenes alone
<`abi> valid question Selection...since such concern is a factor for some people in determining what events they will attend
<`abi> Bernie...I believe you did some research into that question a while ago
<BernieRoehl> I was watching a scene (at the Limelight, surprisingly...), and the submissive briefly looked up and made eye contact with me while I watched. She told me later that it was that seeing me there, simply smiling and enjoying her plight, was what made her drop like a rock. So an observer can be a participant simply by observing.
<BernieRoehl> Yup, abi, but I agree with Selection that it's a different topic
<LrdThomas> vixen please refer to my opening statements of this discussion.
<Kilted_One> abigaille, can you define pvt v's public while Bernie is typin?
* `abi nods... perhaps you could address Selection's question in private at some point
<Leathersmith> never having played other than One on one, i Know i'd want to play in private-party with friends before ever venturing out in real public.
<`abi> perhaps you'd like to define it KO :)
<vixen{KO}> will check back on that in the logs later, LrdThomas.....for this girl was a tad tardy this eve
* `abi nods to Leathersmith...yes...there is certainly is a "middle ground" ... any thoughts from others on how private parties fit into the public/private spectrum?
<Kilted_One> private is all parties that have an invite too...a guest list.....a public venue is open to anyone to walk in off the street...How does that sound?
<BernieRoehl> Actually, abi, I would divide it up even finer than that. There are public fet nights, private parties with a guest list but in a "public" setting (e.g. Lady A's), private parties (typically in people's homes) and finally completely private play.
* `abi nods to KO ... that's one definition of private...I suspect there are others ... anyone else?
<BernieRoehl> The latter two are very similar from my standpoint
<`abi> what distinguishes the latter two from the others Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Usually there are no real limits on type of play at fully private parties, abi.
<BernieRoehl> I'm thinking (roughly) BDSM Cafe/Lady A's/private house party/one-on-one
<LrdThomas> not sure what you mean abi, vis a vis private parties fitting into the public spectrum.
<BernieRoehl> You can have full nudity at Lady A's, but (for example) no penetration
<`abi> well LT....I guess I'm asking whether your expectations at a private party differ from your expectations at a fully open event and a one-on-one situation
<BernieRoehl> At a private party you can do pretty much anything you would do in a one-on-on setting, but with the advantages of having others present
<MysticMz> I find the semi-private parties (invited only) to be far more intimidating to the sub..they know most of the people there, and can't block them out
* LrdThomas considers Lady A's very definetly public, not private.
<MysticMz> closer confines
* BernieRoehl agrees with LT on that, but points out that people attended Lady A's who would never go to an event open to the general public
<MysticMz> I agree LT
<`abi> so...the anonymity of a fully public venue can provide a comfort zone of sorts MysticMz?
* Kilted_One would define A's as a pvt public event
<BernieRoehl> Yes, a private public event -- exactly
<LrdThomas> expectations of what abi? Still not sure what you are driving at.
<MysticMz> so true Bernie...that's why I prefer them
<Kilted_One> not open to the general public
<`abi> expectations of how you will play, what you you will observe...how you will feel...that sort of thing LT...do they differ from venue to venue?
<`shado> was open to anyone attending a munch and buying a ticket whether known or not
<LrdThomas> what i will do with sweetone? or someone else? or who will be there? or responsibilities to the crowd> to sweetone? to myself?
<`abi> yes...those things LT
<Selection> what was the original question did we lose it
* vixen{KO} wonders if "closed" and "open" might be a preface to some of the types of play parties....public & private inclusive
<MysticMz> I think so abi...the very size and numbers of the venue allow the sub to block it easier
<`abi> it goes to the original question Selection ... whether people consider events to be public or private is to an extent an individual perception ... and it changes their expectations and comfort levels
<Leathersmith> knowing that there is a certain amout of critique among the more seasoned observers of the various Dom's techniques, i'd prefer to be observed and possibly coached in a private party first
<`abi> question for the submissives present....do you have different personal limits for public and private play?
<katiias> yes i do... i dont *do* public play... ;-)
<MysticMz> Question for the Dom's here........Are you more comfortable as a Dom in a public or semi public (invite only) venue?
* Kilted_One nods in agreement to shado....but the significant difference was that it was not opne for someone to walk in off the street that just happened to be walking buy....therefore it was ppl in the scene that were there on a pre-arranged basis.
* `abi smiles at katiias...well, that is certainly a distinctly different limit :)
* katiias grins at abi
<tvsubbie4you> you don't do public, period katiias ;)
<LrdThomas> yes. Number 1, i won't scene as a circus act for a crowd. If i get the feeling the crowd wants me to "show my stuff" or "entertain us", forget it. The scenes i do are first and foremost for me andsweetone, with a healthy dollop of leaving the onlookers with a sense of responsible domination. I'll leave the harsh, "use and cold" scenes to private.
* katiias quickly erases the above lines in case some ambitious Dom gets hold of this ....
* katiias just *looks* at tvs and grins
<Selection> if it is a munch situation where you want to introduce newbies maybe it shouldn`t be too harsh,,,if it is just a public play party for people in the lifestyle a dungeon master may wish to set some kind of limits ahead of time
<`abi> but in a sense, you are then "showing your stuff" are you not LT? ... you're demonstrating what you want people to see
<Selection> or not set limits
<vixen{KO}> playing at munches????
* katiias adds munches to her definite do not do list...
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<Selection> I went to a munch in Toronto and then afterwards there was a play party
<`shado> Selection...there is no play at munches...at least there is not supposed to be :)
<LrdThomas> if that is how you chose to interpret it abi, go ahead.
* Kilted_One thinks that the differnece is in the control aspect of it....LT shows what he "wants" v's what the crowd "expects" to see
<`abi> just looking for you to expand on the thought LT... I don't interpret
<BernieRoehl> That would be the BDSM Cafe, Selection. They have a munch followed by a party, which I think is a great idea
<Selection> correct Bernie
<`abi> what do you see as the advantage to that idea Bernie?
<BernieRoehl> It gives people a chance to relax and socialize first, rather than walk in "cold"
<vixen{KO}> but, LrdThomas.....while You play for Your reasons to play there are those that are the showpeople types too
<`abi> anyone who can think back to their first public event.....what was it that made you relax, get over your anxiety ... or did you?
<LrdThomas> i've no interest in someone seeing me scene my lil treasure once only and walking away with an impression that i treat her like a piece of meat, carefree of responsibility or feelings. That would do us, the community and the onlooker a diservice. I will leave that type of scene to situations where ppl know me better, and understand that i don't limit scenes to any particular type, but do them all in context.
<katiias> in order for me to observe and learn from watching scenes, i'd look upon the scenes being done at a play party as the way the Dom/sub usually would play together.. if they were putting on a *show*, and i knew this, it would affect my looking at the scene as a learning experience..
<katiias> i think, LrdThomas, that it helps to know the people involved and their relationship...
<Selection> I did not have any anxiety about seing people play, I am shy so the only anxiety I have is simply meeting people
<Leathersmith> only been to one so its not hard to remember. a wonderful person took me and explained all about what was going on and intoduced me around etc., made me feel at home.
<MysticMz> LrdThomas...(excuse me if I am wrong here)...I have been to several fet nights where I think it was sweetone who 'passes out' during a scene..is this true?
<LrdThomas> yup
<LrdThomas> squick you MM?
<MysticMz> not in the least LT
<canplay> i must admit, i did feel that many Doms treated Their subs/slaves as a piece of meat, no care nothing, and i was shocked to see that after heavy scene the sub/slave was made to clean up afterwards, no rest for the weary at all
* Kilted_One remembers "Fever's night club" as if it were yesterday.....and remembered what "broke the ice' was ppl that I didnt know at all (didnt know anyone) coming up to us and introing and jsut chatting with us...was very pleasing
<ladywo1f> hello all
* vixen{KO} LOVES that excuse to come runnin in her nurses outfit, MysticMz.... <sly smirk>
<katiias> lol
<MysticMz> I have seen you enough together to see what kind of relationship you have together
<MysticMz> however.........
* LrdThomas winks at MM. <g>
<LrdThomas> lol vixen
<MysticMz> as a casual observer in the crowd...I observed and heard the comments around me..
<LrdThomas> sweetone is sitting here laughing too.
<vixen{KO}> ;)
<LrdThomas> kewl.... were they lining up for a turn? <g>
* katiias takes notes on how to get vixen to come running up to help out in her nurse's uniform ;-)
<MysticMz> many newbies were obviously distressed by it...as were some of the Doms
* canplay passes out in all of her heavy scenes also, loved watching sweetone and knowing what she felt with every move
<Selection> MysticMz sometimes the comments are quite hummerous
<MysticMz> people who had not seen you two together before..
<LrdThomas> and they thought she was being murdered?
<canplay> no way Mystic,, i was newbie at that scene and i loved it ,,was one of the most caring scenes of the night
<MysticMz> my point is LT...(and pls hang in for a sec..lol)
* Kilted_One chuckles and remembers the words of one of the DM's one night after watchin lilone go under ;)
<vixen{KO}> hmmm.....brings up the question.....how accepting are W/we of other's kinks and playstyles, hmmm?
<`shado> exactly vixen and how informed are the DM's
* BernieRoehl smiles as vixen brings up next week's topic :-)
* Kilted_One smacks vixen and says that is next weeks topic lass
<katiias> mkinnyk
* `abi nods to vixen....and is one of the purposes of public events to expose our community to itself?
<MysticMz> when you talk about the responsibility of the Dom to the newbies..etc. etc.... how do you explain this to the casual observer
<LrdThomas> did they make these judgments at the time MM, or did they wait 30 minutes to see the smile on her face afterwards?
* vixen{KO} crawls back to kneel by her Master and shut up now.... (with a wink and a smirk)
<katiias> lol
<LrdThomas> i would think that many watching picked up on the intesnity of the love and feeling involved MM. But if they didn't, they coulda asked.
<MysticMz> no LT....it was made at the time...but that isn't my point...you talked early about the responsibility of the Dom in a public venue..
* vixen{KO} thinks of the sounds of "ooooooh" followed a half hour later with "ahhhhhh".....
* katiias laffs
<`abi> okay....let's sum up a little if we can.....is yelling "Let's Party" enough to prepare everyone for their first public outing?
* canplay makes note never to do scene in public as it may worry them when i too pass out with great pleasure
<MysticMz> do you feel you have a responsibility to 'temper' your play knowing the consequences or do you just want to do what 'feels right'?
<Selection> the red tushes were cute
<katiias> that'd werk abi
* vixen{KO} passes abi the sombrero
* katiias stuffs the pinata
<Leathersmith> you get to Beat the piatas!
<LrdThomas> MM, the responsiblity was to see a scene where responsible caring sub-space was achieved.... and quite frankly, achieved with at best moderate pain. If they had watched closely, sweetone was floating before i lay a finger on her, just from the words and the situation.
* `abi thanks everyone for their participation tonight ... and notes that there are several public events on the ehbc calendar....we'll see you all there!
<katiias> no, you get to beat the subbies, Leathersmith Sir
* vixen{KO} makes a note to get pinata tatoo'd on her left cheek
<MysticMz> I know that LT...I see a little more than the average Newbie..lol..
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for another great job of moderating, abi!
<`abi> Bernie....you can turn that darn thing off now and people can say what they really think ;)
<Kilted_One> thanks for the hard work abigaille
<Mltdwn> wooo hoo vixen
<Leathersmith> LOL @ vixen
<Mltdwn> a target :)
* BernieRoehl applauds