June 2, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion
<`abi> Tonight's topic is Exploring Limits
<`abi> Well, let's get started, people can join in as they arrive
<`abi> Our topic tonight is exploring limits. The usual disclaimers apply...the discussion will be logged and posted to the public website, so please change your nick if you wish to participate and remain anonymous
<`abi> try to refrain from Walton-style greetings and let's share opinions without hostility :)
<`abi> So...welcome
<`abi> Would anyone like to start us off by sharing where they think their limits come from?
<`abi> I won't do <????> because .......
<`sparky> Well, i know i have some limits due to hygiene issues
<`sparky> which keep me from things like serious bathroom-activities play
Achilles{tr}> I won't do fire because it is too high a risk exercise for an activity which gives Me small satisfaction from the experience with it I which have had.
<xxendlessdesirexx> really touchy nerve recepters......
<LORD`WOLF> my limits come from what i have learn and grew to acept and what i am comforable with
dalian> some limits could come fram early experiences growing up, practical experience in the scene that went well or otherwise...simple perceptions or desires etc
<`sparky> and i have some limits simply based on inexperience
<justagrrl^^> i would say my limits come from a combination of things....society, morals, health concerns *nodsnods* at sparky...inexperience for me to
<justagrrl^^> more things i'm sure
<`abi> so...a limit is something that just doesn't feel 'right' for a variety of reasons
<pandora``> i find that pushing or exploring my limits is not so much the problem, the problems arise from the after affects, when i suddenly experience insecurities from the exploring, and i am alone
<xxendlessdesirexx> some peoples limits are from fear... not necessarily from haing expierenced it... (but then how can you really know your limit, without the "been there done that"..
<`abi> a little 'aftershock' pandora?
<LORD`WOLF> if i get a gut feeling no it isusually right
<`abi> a good question xxendlessdesirexx...can you really know your limits without pushing them?
<pandora``> yes `abi, and it usually hits the next day when i am at work, trying to function in a normal way, and i get the shakes, and i am left to deal with it alone
<`abi> that sounds like not such a good thing pandora`` ... how do you deal with it?
4Achilles{tr}> A limit could be simply something we do not know well enough to be comfortable trying but later learn more about and decide it might be worth investigating. Example: I would not have been open to using a single tail until I had learned a great deal about them.
<pandora``> well, i try to call someone that i can talk to, but it is hard to do when at work, i feel as though i am a split personality, on the one hand expected to behave as a rational business woman, but on the other hand i am behaving like a neurotic mess
<`sparky> true Achilles{tr} ............my limits tend to be around physical safety issues, so if i can learn more and be assured it's safe, i'm more likely to push it
<pandora``> and how i deal with it.....well, i just have to get on with my job, and think about it later
<TheWolfe> what about talking to your partner pandora``
<`abi> having someone to talk to certainly helps when pushing limits pandora`` .... an idea that has come up in a few places lately is the importance of 'after-after care' ... following up with someone days after a scene
<pandora``> if my partner is available, then yes, but if He is working and i cannot talk to Him right away, i have to deal with it alone
<`abi> especially if new territory has been covered, limits pushed
Achilles{tr}> Exactly `sparky... a limit could be deciding not to do something again because it was not a good experience or it might be deciding something is not to even be started since it is, for some reason, intimidating. A limit which might fade or be bent with more knowledge.
<TheWolfe> then perhaps arrangements should be made
<xxendlessdesirexx> i love the way limits are not limited to just one type.. there are physical, mental... variety is always nice, and i do like limits that are pushed,... can prove to be a very positive expierence..
<`abi> what makes us want to push limits?
<`sparky> because they're there!
<LORD`WOLF> sometimes asking for help can be a limit one is afaid of
<`abi> lol...like mountains sparky?
<`sparky> exactly!
<`sparky> it's a furthering of self-knowledge, for one thing
<LORD`WOLF> i would ask no quarter or give one
<`abi> can you give us an example of a mental limit xxendlessdesirexx?
dalian> perhaps it's just the personal challenge to find our tolerances
<`sparky> plus a furthering of the knowledge about what one will do for Someone....
<`abi> something to consider sparky...do we push limits for ourselves, or for someone else?
<`sparky> both, imo
<`abi> which is easier?
<`sparky> depends on the limit
Achilles{tr}> limits are pushed by a sort of negotaited agreement. Learnign which are 'HARD' limits and which are open to be bent.
<`abi> Has anyone been surprised by the limits they've pushed past?
<`sparky> yep ........ i had no idea when i "came out" that i'd like pain as much as i seem to ... and i'm still finding more that i'm capable of
<`abi> how did you feel about that discovery sparky?
<fiestyone> i have found that as well sparky
<xxendlessdesirexx> well... i mean, when one begins with a new master let's say, one is taught a lot to remember.. perhaps a really detailed form of protocal, could be meer words.. the sub/slave does her best to remember to comply, to respond from his/her teachings... as days go on, there is more added to the mental memory, things grow detailed.. complex, become a challenge... it's no longer 1 + 1, it's now a scientific calculation of the s
<fiestyone> but i had a hard time accepting that about myself
<xxendlessdesirexx> (sorry took a while abi...laundry day..lol)
<fiestyone> i found it embarrasing to admit it to myself.....
* `abi smiles...it's okay xxendlessdesirexx ... worth the wait...an excellent point :)
<`sparky> a bit anxious at first ....... i found it hard to believe that someone could get really aroused by the sensation of pain ... made me question my reasons for being in the scene
<fiestyone> i was much the same sparky
<fiestyone> but.....i just learned that this is what i enjoy
<fiestyone> and i try to just play with people who understand
<fiestyone> and do not let things go to far....
* xxendlessdesirexx grins
<LORD`WOLF> this dom enjoys pain has high pain threshold
<`sparky> then i saw that it's not just me ...... and learned to trust myself
<fiestyone> i just do not process pain as others do.......or so it seems
<`abi> how do you know where that edge is fiestyone ... and how do you approach it?
<fiestyone> i don't..and i have had uncaring people.......scar me......
<fiestyone> so i usually have someone watch things .....if in public.....which is where i play a lot
<LORD`WOLF> so it is some time hard to understand when slave say ouch when i would have not
<fiestyone> as i can be split with a single tail...and not really feel it....i mean it hurts....but it doesnt HURT
<`abi> anyone else have thoughts on that then... how can you push your limits safely?
<`sparky> i'm sure there are lots of possibilities, but nothing beats trust in your Partner
<mist{LW}> well, i think talking about how your going to push them, and setting boundries on how far to push
<`abi> how do you know how far that is mist?...what kinds of things do you look for, or what does your partner look for?
<mist{LW}> i dont really know how far i can be pushed, but i do know when to let Master know He has reached the fringes of those limits
<mist{LW}> some nights i can be pushed farther than others
<mist{LW}> He watches my body language, as well as listens for my safe word
<xxendlessdesirexx> well limits are to be pushed yes, but as you are subjected to a little push a day let's say, you grow useto it, and you move one step further... like a pyramid..
<mist{LW}> something i hate to use btw, so if i do call it out, He knows Hes pushed me
<`sparky> personally, i also need to know that being unable to push that particular limit at that time does not translate into "i failed"
<LORD`WOLF> do i have a limit/ maybe my limits is that once i push a limit once that where i like to start from
<`sparky> then i feel safer
<xxendlessdesirexx> communication, verbal and physical is the key, if your attenative, you will be able to read and know your partener really well..
<mist{LW}> exactly xxendlessdesirexx
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
<mist{LW}> also after the play discussion of how it went is needed
<`abi> I think that's a very good point sparky ... it's why I like to think of it as 'exploring limits' rather than pushing them ... it isn't a contest or something that I 'win' or 'lose' or 'pass' or 'fail' at
<mist{LW}> so to see if the limit can be pushed farther yet, or if it went too far already
<LORD`WOLF> as always
<`sparky> i like that distinction, `abi
<`sparky> i know that that's a big fear for me when "exploring" ........ that i will be unable to go as far as He'd like me to
<`sparky> thus disappointing Him
Achilles{tr}> Can limits be pushed in casual scening with new or casual partners or does it require an ongoing 'relationship'? Can there be progress and pushing of limits for casual sceners?
<xxendlessdesirexx> for me, when at a play party, i have an issue of playing with someone upon having just met.. how would one know how to cator to ones limits with meer words?...
<Sweet1`> that's when leaving them wanting more comes in..why should someone playing for the first time take it that far?
<fiestyone> i believe it is more easilly accomplished with a regualr partner......but as i don't have one....i do play casually.but it is not my first choice
<fiestyone> so i take care
<`sparky> i would explore a limit with someone i play casually with if they're known to be safe and trustworthy by others whom i trust, if it were in public, and if i'd played before with them
<`abi> so perhaps casual play is a place to push 'casual' limits...try new things that aren't personally very risky from a physical or mental point of view?
<mist{LW}> i think also that casual relationships cant go to the depth that a more developed relationship can take one
<`sparky> okay, i'll buy that `abi
<yummy> well mist{LW}, let those of us who mostly play casually get a bit out of the play that we do have........yes you can't go as far i don't think, but i am sorry it does hurt getting told again and again how less meaningful it is
<fiestyone> i agree abi.....
<mist{LW}> its hard to be able to read the responses of someone you havent been with often, it takes a lot of time to build up the trust to a point where some of those limits can be pushed
<xxendlessdesirexx> well i don't think trust is only the issue to rely on when one explores limits... skill is another part... you can trust someone from having spoken to them on line, or on the phone, but how certain will you be of trusting someone when they have never played with you.... things do and could happen..
<fiestyone> i have done things like wax....that i had never done before....in a casual setting
<`abi> because you trusted the person's skill level fiestyone?
<`sparky> Well ....... but was wax a limit, or just a new activity?
<mist{LW}> i didnt say that it was less meaningful yummy, please dont put words in there that i didnt use
<yummy> i've had new play partners take me further than i expected to be able to go
<fiestyone> but in a group setting...where friends are close by
<yummy> sorry mist{LW}
<xxendlessdesirexx> trust is a more specific topic...
Achilles{tr}> Hey now.. that's true too. Go to Someone you know has experience in something you want to try and have them sort of 'demo' it for you?
<fiestyone> yes...i play with friends sometimes.......
<`sparky> yes, Achilles{tr} ............... absolutely
<fiestyone> i have done that as well Sir
<fiestyone> and it has worked out well.......
<yummy> just heard so many times frrom those in relathionships how much less meaningful it is for us who aren't in relationships, it makes me want to give up sometimes
<fiestyone> and some really enjoy teaching....
<fiestyone> me too yummy
<fiestyone> but...i live in hope..that i will someday find the One
<fiestyone> and in the mean time...i learn.....and grow......as much as i can
<yummy> its like "well its only casual play" if you were in a relationship it would be so much more.......
<`abi> how does it feel when you get past a limit?
* xxendlessdesirexx smiles @ fiestyone
<mist{LW}> keep in mind that i was one of the casual players until i met Master, and we are still growing and learning about each other
<`sparky> "Yay!!!" lol
<LORD`WOLF> it can be meaningful causal play to both for me not to be afaid of hurting someone i would have to know how far they can go and to what mean do they normally get there
* `abi smiles at sparky
<`abi> and how soon does the next mountain loom sparky?
<fiestyone> do you not agree with that sentiment yummy??
<xxendlessdesirexx> when passing a limit, it gives me a sense of accomplishment.. or.... if i am feeling extra bratty... it get's the "is that all you got" response... lol
<mist{LW}> i think it depends on the limit that was pushed too sparky
<`sparky> plus possibly a little bit of "Holy crap, man ........... did i really just do that?!"
<mist{LW}> lol, thats it exactly
dalian> lol
<`sparky> depends on the limit when i'll explore the next one
Achilles{tr}> A casual scene might be good for experiencing the beginning of something which could then be taken back to explore in further detail... more depth later?
<`sparky> if it's a different limit i'm more likely to try it sooner
<mist{LW}> like finding out that the play session you thought was too short was over 45 minutes long, and your going, but, He just started lol
<LORD`WOLF> before i beat on someone i want to know if they can take it because ican get very rough
<`sparky> i think i'm willing to explore physical limits quicker than mental ones ..... i need more time between new mindfucks, for sure
Achilles{tr}> When you're in this for a time...it can be fun to look back and see all the limits that have been pushed or cast aside as the path has been travelled. Seeing why each fell and considering what it was that made it a limit can then be applied in considering those limits which remain. Decide which might be 'bent' next?
<`abi> I think sometimes it's harder to absorb the impact of mental limits that get passed sparky
<`sparky> Yep ........ the body "heals" faster than the mind, i think
Achilles{tr}> What's a mental limit? I don't think I'm clear on those.
<`abi> getting past a physical limit is like to elicit the "Score!" response .. while mental limits invoke all sorts of vulnerability that can be very scary and difficult to process
<`sparky> exactly
<xxendlessdesirexx> mental limits can even be self inflicted as far as processing the info taken in
<LORD`WOLF> good question Achilles{tr} what is a mental limit and how can one push it
<xxendlessdesirexx> you can push your own mental limit, and in many cases not even know your doing it..:)\
<yummy> aren't limits all mental other than those which are caused by physcial limitiations
<LORD`WOLF> by degradeing another that bullshit to me and i will not do it or torelated it
<TheWolfe> agreed yummy
<`abi> to an extent, yes yummy....but I think that there are mental thresholds that are very different to step over than physical ones
<xxendlessdesirexx> some limits are processed mentally, then dilivered physically, and vice versa
<`sparky> an example of a mental limit for me (that i'll be exploring pretty soon, actually) is gags ... they don't inflict physical pain on me, but they take away my power of verbal communication, which makes me anxious ...... i find them humiliating ... that's a mental limit for me
<TheWolfe> degradation is a limit for you LORD`WOLF that's fine
Achilles{tr}> So a mental limit is just a fear of some physical act for non-physical reasons?
<yummy> `abi to me all are mental other than those such as not being able to kneel cause of bad knees........other than a good yoga class the physical ones aren't movable --IMHO
<`abi> mental limits to me yummy are ones where I increase my emotional vulnerability
<xxendlessdesirexx> a mental limit is not limited to only fear..
<`sparky> well, it may not look very physical, but yeah ....... what `abi just said! lol
<yummy> but aren't those all your limits abi? ........are there phyical ones you are interested in changing?
<xxendlessdesirexx> mental limits, the location of a emotional and intellectual melting pot..
<mystic_prizm> hi A/all
<`abi> yes, there are physical limits that I push too yummy ... but they don't require the emotional risk of pushing the mental ones..at least not for me
<`abi> YMMV
<yummy> i'm just trying to understand.....am more wondering if my own thinking of the difference between the two makes sense
Achilles{tr}> Why is it important to push limits?
<mist{LW}> for me there are some things that i find very hard to deal with mentally, and to push those particular limits may never happen, no matter how much i may want to let them go
<xxendlessdesirexx> well sometimes pushing limits, helps ones knowledge and understanding, helps the reciever and the giver, limits gie variety, a place to go where you haven't been before...
<xxendlessdesirexx> a change, a little spice with that something nice..
Achilles{tr}> xxendlessdesirexx, sounds like not pushing limits is stagnation.
<`sparky> an effort to "go where no one has gone before"!
<EchoesII> perhaps a trusted encounter maybe t' only place a "limit"
<EchoesII> might be pushed if especially if one's "dom" has " limits",,,
<EchoesII> a Master is not allowed t' privilege of "limits" ,,,
<EchoesII> H/She must be able to provide that which is required ****
<`abi> Do you think that Dominants have limits Echoes?
<LORD`WOLF> slave has pointed out to me i did not claify my statement ther fore i will now, i ment humiation of her
<xxendlessdesirexx> to each there own, your your own individual...
<`sparky> surely Dominants are allowed to have limits too! ?
<xxendlessdesirexx> heck yes
<TheWolfe> definitely sparky
* `abi looks down the list at the Caps....
<EchoesII> *indeed*,,, mostly haunted of themselves,,,
Achilles{tr}> My limit on fireplay would be an example?
<mist{LW}> i am sure that Master has limits, in fact i know fireplay is one
<mist{LW}> i love it, He wont because of something that happened when He was younger
<`abi> is it more difficult for a Dominant to push their limits?
<xxendlessdesirexx> hasn't someone had that one thing they haven't tried, or never wanted to try, and yet at the same time... do the "what if?" thing?...
<mist{LW}> and i understand that, so its a non issue for us now, it wont happen between us
Achilles{tr}> Metal bondage, cutting, scat, etc... limits exist but I recognize they might bend or break in the future.
<`abi> submissives have someone to help them push limits, who helps Dominants to push theirs?
<xxendlessdesirexx> i never skydive, but before i am six feet under, i am gonna be the one screaming above your head "incomming!'
<LORD`WOLF> yes DOM must have limits because after all the smoke and fire and the sound of the strikeing floger has become a echo in the past one must be human
Achilles{tr}> Possibly immediately before xxendlessdesirexx?
<mist{LW}> i think we do at times abi, because They want to give us what we need also, therefore They push past Their limits at times
<LORD`WOLF> for some their may be far from the edge of most but they stil would have a limit
<`sparky> remember it's power EXCHANGE ..... therefore it's up to me as the sub to help the Dom ... to give Him more and more power, in different ways
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol... hey... i promise to dye my hair another color but blonde, and read the parichute manual >before< i jump..lol
<EchoesII> *clarification*,,, One doesn't equate "domness" with "Mastery"*
<LORD`WOLF> morals i have them maybe some do not
<fiestyone> ain't that the truth
<`abi> Okay...we have a few minutes left...anyone want to share any final thoughts on limits?
Achilles{tr}> Then there are limits which are deal or scene breakers. Example: I won't scene with someone who says "No marks". Sort of the other end of the limits edge.
<LORD`WOLF> but this dom will always protect what he owns
<mist{LW}> well, i think that limits are there, and they are constantly in flux, depending on the growth of both partners
<xxendlessdesirexx> the perfect couple, is indeed a "Limited" edition... :P
<mist{LW}> no two players will have the same limits, or reach those limits in exactly the same way
<mist{LW}> we all need to realise that and respect each others ideas on those limits
<LORD`WOLF> so true my pet and you do push them every day
* `abi smiles... thank you mist and xxendlessdesirexx... nice closing thoughts
<mist{LW}> lol Master
<Sweet1`> what about those who get into a headspace so deep there are no limits?
<`abi> Thank you everyone for joining our discussion tonight...please feel free to continue the discussion, but I'll close the log now