May 30 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

Start of #bdsm-KW buffer: Sun May 30 22:10:04 1999
<KO_vixen{KO}> tonite's discussion is "Making it Real -- Moving from Online to Real Life"
<MaC10> ic
<MaC10> kewl
* KO_vixen{KO} nods to Paul-n-pat....welcome
<Paul-n-pat> happy birthday
<MaC10> so what does bdsm stand for?
* KO_vixen{KO} wonders if we should start the discussion by asking about safety issues when taking it from cyber to offline
@<`abi> I'll get Mac
<trufriend> like never meeting at your home first? meeting in a public place first...
<KO_vixen{KO}> yes....those are two biggies...
<PanheadAL> well i for one like to meet ppl in a very public place
<KO_vixen{KO}> one of the biggest is always letting someone else know what your plans are too
<KO_vixen{KO}> what do you mean bye "public places" AL?
<PanheadAL> when alora and i frist met it was at her school in the main bilding in the middle of the day
<trufriend> definitely.....and having a call signal or time limit
* KO_vixen{KO} nods to AL
<PanheadAL> so it was full of ppl and the campes cops where right in the 
<alora{AF}> yea...outside the library...a opular place at 2pm ~grin~
<KO_vixen{KO} that is a good idea AL....nice touch
<KO_vixen{KO} what do you mean by call signal & time limit tru?
<PanheadAL> i set it up that way not just for her but for me too
* meow` always meets someone first in a coffee shop but has never arranged 
  a safe call ... always figured she could just walk away from the coffee 
<KO_vixen{KO} what if "they" followed you from the coffee shop thos meow? 
what then? if you didn't have backup plans then you are letting down your 
gaurd, hmmm???
<trufriend> when letting a friend know about your meeting.....have it so 
you can call them and let the phone ring once if all is ok...three times if 
there is a problem
<trufriend> or what i have done before is say "if you don't hearfrom me by 
___, then come to where i am..."
<KO_vixen{KO} has anyone got any good or bad experiences about meeting 
@<meow`> oh well, KO_vixen{KO}, there is always someone who knows where i 
am and what time i'm due back ....
<KO_vixen{KO} then you do have backup meow...
#bdsm-kw 9:09pm est 
* cyberbrat_ just swallows.
* trufriend hugs brat
@<meow`> yeah, i guess so KO_vixen{KO}
* cyberbrat_ slips away for now
9:09pm est 
<alora{AF}> well...i had a great experiece meeting AL :)
<KO_vixen{KO} sounds like it alora...what made it great?
9:10pm est 
<alora{AF}> we met in the early afternoon...and had a couple hours to spend 
with each other before i went to a calculus tast...
9:11pm est 
* KO_vixen{KO} also used to utilise her own email too when doing a major 
  meeting out of town where her local network couldn't be right 
  least if i mailed all the info to myself there was a record of it.
<PanheadAL> then if she did not have a good feeling she could have gone out 
of another door
<alora{AF}> ...we went to a mall (my first time on a was great :) 
) and had coffee...well he drank the coffee ~grin~
<PanheadAL> or if i dident then i could leave
<Blksmith> have there ever been any truly bad experiences where some one 
has called for and needed help locally
<alora{AF}> and the option of a 'way out' was reasuring...just in case
<KO_vixen{KO} what kind of things should we all try to get to know about a 
person before we take it from the keyboard to coffee or whatever?
<Kirspin> What they want out of a relationship!
<PanheadAL> well when i meet some one i will hand them my drivers licens so 
they have all the info on me
<dove99> their expectations, their likes and dislikes
<alora{AF}> i think a little about what the other person does with his/her 
day and contact some info can be left with someone you trust 
just in case something does go wrong
<KO_vixen{KO} a good one AL....if a person can't be upfront about true 
identity, i take that as a warning signal
<PanheadAL> yep
<PanheadAL> it will put both of us at ese
<alora{AF}> nod nod nod
<KO_vixen{KO} Blksmith....i have never personally heard of anyone having 
to make that call but i'm sure there are those that have.
<PanheadAL> i have meet some that dont want it and some that will just give 
it a quick look
<KO_vixen{KO} are there safety measure to take while still online before 
one can actually physically hand them that I.D.?
<trufriend> a friend of mine mad that call to me....but everything worked 
out alright in the harm done.
<PanheadAL> i will give them my # to call
* KO_vixen{KO} has gotten scans of driver's licences in email
<KO_vixen{KO} doing voice before actual face to face can save time for 
everybody agreed
<alora{AF}> or perhaps there is a mutual friend or aquantance that can 
'vouch' for the person
<KO_vixen{KO} references online or offline, alora?
<alora{AF}> either, or long as it's someone you trust to tall you 
the truth about the person you're about to meet
<KO_vixen{KO} alora....should the persons have actually have met the 
person real-life?
<alora{AF}> oh yes!!
<lvs2btied> If they are part of a munch group it really helps. I would feel 
much more comfortable knowing that they were known by people I put trust in.
<KO_vixen{KO} why is that important?
<KO_vixen{KO} good point lvs2btied...our own communities' networking 
system is paramount for getting to know people online to realtime
<alora{AF}> because it's so easy for someone to pretend to be what they are 
not online...and it's difficult to tell just chatting online
<alora{AF}> lvs2btied ...that's exactly what i'm trying to say...that 
someone you trust knows a bit about the person
<trufriend> even meeting people through the 'group' or because so-and-so 
claims they are worthwhile....doesn't guarantee a safe meeting
<KO_vixen{KO} how many folks inchannel have made the transition to knowing 
someone online to actually meeting them?
<trufriend> people can still be very different around different pwople or 
in different settings
<dove99> i have, vixen
<KO_vixen{KO} agreed tru....but having someone vouched for is a starting 
<jalyn> having them from the munch/group allows you to also see how they 
interact with others
<^brandy> i have
@<BernieRoehl> I have as well. I find it's always surprising.
#bdsm-kw 9:22pm est 
<KO_vixen{KO} anyone care to share words of advice about meeting then?
<lvs2btied> There are no guarantees but of all the other options available 
I would put more trust in someone who was vouched for by a fellow munch 
<trufriend> i think we all have our own "first meeting" persona vs. our 
regular self
<trufriend> i know, i've seen it in some more than others....but it's there
<alora{AF}> trufriend ...NOTHING guarantees a safe meeting....
<KO_vixen{KO} what about the old "gut feeling"? how much emphasis should 
we put on that?
<dove99> i trust my gut feeling, it's usually right
<trufriend> i know in my self, my "first meeting" persona is very bubbly 
and everyday self is much more withdrawn
<trufriend> i trust my gut too a certain degree
@<BernieRoehl> I think people should trust their gut, but err on the side 
of caution.
<trufriend> exactly Bernie
#bdsm-kw 9:24pm est 
<trufriend> common sense has to be ever present
@<BernieRoehl> Sometimes desire/lust/whatever can cause your gut to be less 
than reliable.
<KO_vixen{KO} but should we trust our gut feeling to the point where we 
slip on safe protocol?
<lvs2btied> I think you have to trust your gut but watch very closely and 
ask lots of questions.
<dove99> vixen, i did that, and i consider myself lucky, not smart
<Kirspin> I have found a lot of new people coming into BDSM, are not aware 
of safety and I think it is a real concern for everyone
<KO_vixen{KO} precisely dove...and you can't always count on 
luck....smartz are a more positve thing to keep at a meeting
<jennyw-sissy> i've had the chance to meet someone, without the benefit of 
a munch group intro/background knowledge . . . .not my first choice, but 
stay careful and as everybody's already said, err on side of caution
<KO_vixen{KO} agreed Kirspin....that is why we have discussion such as 
this...what do you mean by "aware of safety"?
<jennyw-sissy> everything worked out OK for me . . the other person did 
have a safety arranged, and we met in a public place for dinner . . .
<KO_vixen{KO} at what point do we become TOO safe? paranoid even?
<KO_vixen{KO} or can we be too safe?
@<`abi> I'm wondering whether expectations sometimes ride higher if there's 
been alot of cyber contact before a r/l meeting..
<PanheadAL> you can never be to safe
<Kirspin> Well I have had some sub females contact me, they are very new to 
BDSM, they dont realize that if we are to meet that it should be in a 
public place, some would rather meet you in your home and I for one dont 
like that to happen, meet at Tim Hortons or some place like that for a 
first time
<jennyw-sissy> you have to be safe enuff to be comfortable with your own 
well being, vixen
* ^brandy agrees with AL
@<BernieRoehl> The big advice I give everyone is "don't go home with 
someone after the first meeting".
* KO_vixen{KO} agrees too...just wanted to see how y'all felt
<dove99> good advice, Bernie
<KO_vixen{KO} good advice Bernie
<jalyn> again it is more or less common sense
<jennyw-sissy> right on, Bernie
<^brandy> but when is "safe", actaully safe?
#bdsm-kw 9:30pm est 
<jennyw-sissy> you never know, brandy . . .
<KO_vixen{KO} abi...the more contact we have before a meeting does tend to 
raise expectations...that is natural.
<Peter37> hi all
<PanheadAL> hey Peter
<Peter37> hi Al :)
<KO_vixen{KO} what do you mean, brandy? safe means "free from danger"
@<`abi> but does it make it more difficult to procede cautiously 
<dove99> online contact can work two ways, though. it can help speed up 
dialogue, but it can also build a false 'persona'. i've seen both
@<`abi> I guess my question is really, does alot of cyber create a false 
sense of intimacy?
<^brandy> exactly KO... when would You find it "safe"? from someone else 
recommendation? or your gut feeling?
<dove99> abi, from my experience, yes it can
<KO_vixen{KO} it can make it more difficult sometimes abi because you can 
let down your guard and forget about safety protocols
#bdsm-kw 9:33pm est 
@<meow`> yeah, abi, i think that chatting online makes everyone seem close 
.... i've been surprised when i meet someone in person and wonder why their 
voice sounded like "that" <chuckle>
<trufriend> i think it can abi.....if we fall into the "love and attention" 
#bdsm-kw 9:33pm est 
<Peter37> hi Bliss
<KO_vixen{KO} how do we avoid traps then?
* BLisS101 waves to all
<Traeger> Hello Bliss.
<trufriend> because we tend to 'create' that person in our mind inot what 
we need or are looking for, not who they really are.....and not necessarily 
because of things they say
<KO_vixen{KO} is safety more important for a man/woman? Top/bottom?
<trufriend> safety is a two way street.....something for all concerned....
#bdsm-kw 9:35pm est 
<trufriend> there is still the image of the "weaker sex", but both men and 
women can be fooled or hurt
<KO_vixen{KO} should the Dominant take the initiative & active roll in the 
safety of meeting someone realtime?
<trufriend> i don't think so...because the role as it defines, has not been 
set yet
* BLisS101 thinks its like birth control, each partner should take an 
  active role
<lvs2btied> I think both Dom and sub have to take responsibility ahead of 
time for their safety.
9:36pm est 
9:37pm est 
* KO_vixen{KO} reminds everyone that one's own safety is not a submissive should be the dominating factor in all our 
  matter what persuasion we all are.
<trufriend> exactly
<PanheadAL> well when i met alora i asked her where there was a public 
place around her
9:38pm est 
<KO_vixen{KO} what are some of the no-no's and warning signals that we 
need to pay attention to?
<PanheadAL> and i made the efert to go out to her
9:40pm est 
<KO_vixen{KO} like someone who won't give you real information about 
<lvs2btied> evasive answers or trying to change the subject. That should be 
a real neon light that he/she may not be exactly who you think they are
<PanheadAL> and if they will not give you there # after you have talked a 
cupple of times on the phone
<KO_vixen{KO} what if they won't give you a phone number? what if they 
DEMAND a home number?
9:41pm est 
<Johncin> hi all
<dove99> vixen that would be a red light for me
<PanheadAL> well if you have talked to them a cupple of times it is only 
far if you have there # to call them
<PanheadAL> and if they dont give you one or give you one that is a cell 
then it should be a red light
<trufriend> hesitant about giving any personal information at all about 
themselves...tehn giving lame excuses why they "can't"
@<`abi> not necessarily....but you should know why
<KO_vixen{KO} should we try to do the voice thing before meeting 
real-life? how important is that?
<Kirspin> A case in point, I give my home phone number, but sometimes the 
other person wont give me there's, so thats another problem too, but I dont 
push it
@<meow`> well, i met someone new yesterday .... and didn't speak to him on 
the phone first, it didn't matter to me all that much actually
<trufriend> the voice thing is a good idea, you can hear a lot in a 
person's voice that you can't see on a monitor
<PanheadAL> i feel that the voice thing is inportant but that is more for me
@<BernieAway> Ask to meet some friends of theirs. You can often get some 
insight from meeting someone's friends.
<KO_vixen{KO} what about the sharing of pics? what merit is there in that?
@<BernieRoehl> And if they say they don't have any... well, that says 
something too I guess.
<Peter37> hi Bernie
<BLisS101> to have the photo as ID to give to your safe call
#bdsm-kw 9:44pm est 
<trufriend> there are a few that think they can pass off a phony pic even 
if they plan to meet r/l
<RubberRon> hello all
<Traeger> I think there is.
<PanheadAL> well for me KO_vixen{KO} i like to get pics of anyone i talk to 
so that i know who i am talking to on the computer
<Traeger> Helps to make both parties sure its the right thing.
<PanheadAL> at one point in time my pic was my licence photo
<trufriend> now that's scary
* meow` doesn't give out her pic until we've chatted a few times
<PanheadAL> yep it was Traeger
* BLisS101 upon meeting i ask for the drivers license right away, and call 
  info into my safe casll, legal name and address, birthdate etc
* jalyn agress with meow
<PanheadAL> dam tab key and close names
<trufriend> lol
<KO_vixen{KO} okay....mug shots...glam shots...or maybe even full 
frontals? or does anybody use the cutesy baby shot? or even the model 
<trufriend> big T and little t AL
<PanheadAL> but it is scary trufriend becouse mine looked like it should 
have numbers under it
<KO_vixen{KO} great idea Bliss....good advice for everyone to take note
<trufriend> mine too!
<Kirspin> Mine too Al
<PanheadAL> and if that dident scare them off hey great
<PanheadAL> i think i still have that old pic around somewhere hold on 
trufriend and i will find it
<trufriend> sure
9:48pm est 
<KO_vixen{KO} is safety different when meeting people out-of-town or 
another country?
<jalyn> i think it's different because the meeting place will be totally 
unfamiliar to one of the parties
9:48pm est 
<trufriend> yes, to a certain degree.....less safety net around
<Peter37> I have a few long distance meetings, and they went really well. i 
have heard some horror stories tho
<KO_vixen{KO} of course what precautions are then taken? or 
should there be different ones?
<Kirspin> Another point is if you agree on a meeting, and the other party 
does not show up, what then?
<KO_vixen{KO} what do you mean Kirspin? what do you do?
@<meow`> well, Kirspin, if they don't show up, then that's their loss
est "Quit: Ohhh baby cum with me.....yessssssssss" 
* KO_vixen{KO} thinks that a no-show can happen for many reasons...
#bdsm-kw 9:51pm est 
<KO_vixen{KO} the joy of real-life
<Kirspin> Well is it time to move on and forget them?
@<meow`> yeah, i would .... i've only been stood up once ... you just never 
look back, that's it
<trufriend> i heard a story of someone going to a first meeting, the other 
person supposedly didn't show up.....only to find out they were in fact 
there, just watching the other person
<KO_vixen{KO} that's a judgement call Kirspin...and dependant on many 
factors...all personal to both parties, i'm sure
<dove99> sometimes that's a valid reason for a no-show
<Kirspin> I agree there are many reasons for no shows
<KO_vixen{KO} stalking, huh, tru? how do we deal with that factor?
<^brandy> i would want to see the coroners report, myself...
<trufriend> part of the 'fear' of meeting new people
* KO_vixen{KO} makes a note of brandy's "necro" perk
<jalyn> i think if i was to meet someone from out of town or in another 
country...i would want a friend with me, who could just sit at another table
<Kirspin> Lets face it, some People are scared to even attend a Munch
<Finn^m^> ahh...a topic!!!
<KO_vixen{KO} good idea jalyn...
@<BernieRoehl> A lot of people don't show up for a meeting alone. They come 
with a friend, so they have someone to talk to in the case of a no-show.
@<BernieRoehl> Yes, exactly jalyn.
<trufriend> and if the reason is so good....then why not get a message to 
the person they were meeting......there are so many ways to communicate 
* Finn^m^ says hello's to all and sits down to listen to the topic..
<KO_vixen{KO} but there can still be crossed wires...we are all only human
<dove99> if a no-show was followed up immediately with a good reason, i 
would tend to try again, otherwise, i would walk
* meow` agrees with dove99 ....
<KO_vixen{KO} after the first you let safety relax?
<^brandy> no..
<dove99> never
<trufriend> even knowing somebody your whole life, you don't relax
<KO_vixen{KO} does anyone have a safety protocol for preventing being 
stalked after the first meeting?
* BLisS101 read on another list, to give the other's keys to the wait staff 
  and ask them to hold it for 10 mins after you leave the restaurant
<dove99> i try to leave last, doesnt prevent the seasoned stalker, but 
gives me a little edge
@<BernieRoehl> It's tricky. A lot of people will ask for id on the first 
meeting... which is risky, if they turn out to be a stalker.
<KO_vixen{KO} good ideas
<BLisS101> why risky BR?
* meow` doesn't think anyone could catch her on her motorcycle after a 
  meeting <chuckle>
@<BernieRoehl> Of course, I often ask for id the first time too.
<BLisS101> why risky BR?
<KO_vixen{KO} when is too much personal info too much?
@<BernieRoehl> Well, if they see your real name and know what city you're 
in, they could find out more information without too much effort.
<BLisS101> oh i c
<KO_vixen{KO} and your DL has your full addy
* BLisS101 lives her life like an open book so nothing is too personal
* BernieRoehl is the same
#bdsm-kw 10:01pm est 
<`Ronin-> Who the heck called for a party?
* Finn^m^ is just glad not to be dating anymore!'s terribly complex...
<KO_vixen{KO} living life as an open book can lead to "THE END" if not 
safely done, Bliss
* `Ronin- makes his way around the room shaking hands
* `abi doesn't feel the need to give the film version of her life the first 
  time she meets someone
<BLisS101> explain KO_vixen{KO}
* KO_vixen{KO} starts the popcorn
@<meow`> i think the question that irritates me the most in a first chat 
online is "so, what do you do for a living, meow`?" i never answer that one
* `abi winks at KO_vixen{KO}...well okay...maybe the daily rushes if you've 
  got popcorn :)
<trufriend> Finn....i'm IN the dating game for the first time 
really.....went from mom to on my own
<KO_vixen{KO} just that one cannot be naive about one's own safety when 
dealing with the anonymity of online and taking it to the personal level of 
letting someone enter your real life
<`Ronin-> I hunt vampires for a living. That's what I always say. People 
seem to get very quiet after that answer meow.
<BLisS101> well i dont give out my home address KO_vixen{KO}
<alora{AF}> night all
<PanheadAL> night all have to get some heat into me
@<meow`> well, my answer is always that i make widgets ... that should be 
code for "i don't wanna tell ya, Dude"
* BLisS101 likes to call a person's work number, tells me if they are who 
  they say they are
#bdsm-kw 10:05pm est 
<BLisS101> so what a person does for a living is very important for me
* `abi wonders how people balance privacy and safety
#bdsm-kw 10:06pm est 
<`Ronin-> So us vampire hunting guys are not interesting for you Bliss? 
<KO_vixen{KO} Bliss....if you give someone your licence, you've given out 
your home address.
<BLisS101> not at all ronin
<BLisS101> lol
#BDSM-KW 10:06pm est 
@<meow`> well, BLisS101, actually what a person does for a living is 
important to me .... cuz i place value on being with someone who is my 
intellectual equal ... but i don't ask it right away in the first online 
@<`abi> I don't think I have the right to know *everything* about someone 
I'm meeting for the first time
<KO_vixen{KO} agreed abi
<BLisS101> KO_vixen{KO} i dont let them look at my license, i look at theirs
<KO_vixen{KO} that is a two way street with me too
<ms_monroe> Hi Bernie
@<meow`> oh terrific .... i'm being trolled right now by someone knew and 
the 3rd question is "so what do you do in toronto" ... geesh, speak of the 
<BLisS101> cap ur name and u wont get trolled anymore
* meow` sighs
10:08pm est 
@<meow`> but some trolls turn into nice Doms, blissie
<Peter37> actually sometimes being collared is good for that too,
* meow` chuckles ... and some don't LOL
<BLisS101> only if ur a billy goat gruff meow
@<meow`> lol
* Finn^m^ loved that book as a
* KO_vixen{KO} thinks it's time to officially close tonite's discussion but 
  would like to thank everyone for participating...pleas carry on....or 
  carry on!
<trufriend> online Peter37, i have worn a collar if i notice a large number 
of HNG's......{NoThx}
* meow` looks at Peter37 ...well, i did the collar thingy once ... and 
  would never do it again .... no one chatted with me at all then
<Peter37> lol
<BLisS101> thanku KO_vixen{KO}
<BLisS101> hugs KO_vixen{KO}
<trufriend> thanks so much to KO_vixen{KO}
<jalyn> thanks KO_vixen{KO}...well done!
<dove99> thank you vixon
End of #bdsm-KW buffer    Sun May 30 22:10:04 1999