May 30, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

Note that the ModBot software was not working for this discussion

<QTIP> this is an interesting subject from my viewpoint
<shareena> mine too
<catsbrat{CM}> how so QTIP
<QTIP> i'm one manipulative SOB. i learned from the best. (thanks, mom)
<_dove{S}> lol
<QTIP> and so... when i deal with someone who seems to be "demanding" attention. how and when i mete out that attention is up to me (or isn't it?)
<catsbrat{CM}> lol ohhhhhhh ok
* paperclip has joined #bdsm-KW
<shareena> i would think so QTIP.
<catsbrat{CM}> i would say so
<QTIP> remember the scene in *The Secretary* at the end, where she puts the dead cockroach on the bed she's just made?
<shareena> but i would also think if you were in a relationship with someone, the boundaries would be set so both know what is ok and what is not
<QTIP> of course
<paperclip> what is a chronic discipline problem? what does that mean?
* tvsubbie has joined #bdsm-KW
<abitbent> i was thinking the same thing paperclip... would topping from the bottom be an example of a discipline problem?
<paperclip> some think so yes
<catsbrat{CM}> depends if the Dominant likes it that way or not
* MistressSarcastica has quit IRC (QUIT: )
<abitbent> i was thinking that too catsbrat{CM}... maybe the Top expects a certain amount of that
<QTIP> IMO, this type (bdsm) of role playing is an ego trip from both top and bottom. both seek a certain, specific attention to their needs
<abitbent> and has fun with it to an extent
* `Anticipation has joined #bdsm-KW
<tvsubbie> here's another what point does brattiness become a discipline problem?
<shareena> how about brattiness? is that a good thing or a bad thing and is it punishable
<paperclip> good question tvsubbie
<shareena> is it behaviour that requires chronic discipline
<shareena> lol @ tvsubbie. great minds think alike
<_dove{S}> i think brattiness becomes a problem when it isn't controlled
<paperclip> nothing wrong with being a brat in my opinion...just always remember theres probably a line to not cross.
<catsbrat{CM}> i know after a certain amount of brattiness it is no longer tolerated with CM
<QTIP> another perspective: what is the "proper" way to ask for the attention one desires?
<abitbent> i think it has to be there from the beginning of the relationship.. so it's not just an unexpected pop up
<dana^^> i kinda see brattiness as being a little childish... sorry if i offend here but to me its more about attention seeking... im a grown woman if i need to talk to my Dom its done with respect and alotta thinking about the issue before hand
<shareena> if it's attention i want i go up and give him a hug or whatever
<shareena> he always reciprocates
<paperclip> well dana^^, there's goes my fun!
<`Anticipation> brattiness should be scaled imo, something along the lines of a "points" system, so that it doesnt become a chronic problem, so that the person understands there is a limit to the length of brattiness that will be tolerated
<dana^^> lol sorry paperclip
<paperclip> :) brat! :P
<dana^^> grins
<_dove{S}> dana, i'm not much for brattiness, but i can clown around with the best of them..... there's a time and place for it though
<paperclip> it's like anything else, time and place and all that.
<shareena> so for each couple the amount of brattiness would be different then `Anticipation?
* shardAngeli has joined #bdsm-KW
<paperclip> i have to wonder how many ppl are calling a good sense of humor and intelligence "brattiness"
<shareena> me too paperclip. i joke around with `Anticipation all the time but if he says "enough" then i stop
<`Anticipation> of course, I would not presume to tell someone else what would constitute too much or not enough brattiness is allowed in other relationships...for me...I enjoy the banter that is involved....
<dana^^> exactly dove... perhaps ive seen a little too much brattiness where the submissive is really looking for the Dominant to take control... it becomes like a game...
<paperclip> are you referring to online though dana^^, many think i'm an absolute brat yet have no idea what i'm like when i have a Dom.
<`Anticipation> but dana^^.....isnt life a type of game? Isnt having fun in your relationship one of the things that keeps it alive?
<QTIP> for some reason, i enjoy being challenged. i would never create nor be able to appreciate a human doormat. why break somebody's spirit? that doesn't sound like fun at all to me. i'd much rather make time to negotiate what doesn't work and speak as equals outside the role playing games
<dana^^> there's a big difference between the two dont you think paperclip...
<shareena> i wouldn't want a relationship that was serious all the time
<_dove{S}> There comes a point where brattiness becomes manipulation, imo
<QTIP> agreed
<shareena> only if that was the intent _dove{S}
<`Anticipation> it would only become manipulation _dove{S}....if one isnt capable of putting a "line" down...indicating that this is as far as you are allowed to that point the "brattiness" is reined in
<dana^^> absolutely Anticipation... humour is a big part of enjoying life...
<_dove{S}> i think we all need some outlets, brattiness may be one of them. Anything is good in moderation. If it continues past that point, it becomes a problem
<paperclip> not sure what you're referring to dana^^
<QTIP> even with somebody who desires to roleplay as "Daddy & child" there must be time to discuss as 2 adults
<shareena> exactly QTIP
<dana^^> oh sorry... lost my thought... between brattiness and having an wicked sense of humour
<QTIP> part of what i've done as "one manilpulative SOB" is to tell somebody who really seems to be asking for it, "you haven't earned that yet..." ;-)
<shareena> i know from talks i have had with `Anticipation that if i was a "yes Sir" "no Sir" sub he would have lost interest a long time ago
<QTIP> if my willing partner becomes off the scale in "asking for it", it's really time for a talk about "what's going on for you now?"
<`Anticipation> exactly QTIP.....I have said the same thing.....when you recognize that someone is trying to get a certain "rise" out of you....the *nastiest* thing you can do not give them what they are looking for (grin)
<_dove{S}> i'm as nutty as they come, shareena, but if i were to do that in a situation where high protocol is called for, i'd expect for my butt to be in a sling
<paperclip> yup
<_dove{S}> Anticipation, that would be deserved, imo...... otherwise you are fueling the fires
<shareena> in what situations is high protocol called for, for you _dove{S}
<QTIP> that seems like a negotiation point in every relationship
<_dove{S}> i used "high protocol" as a relative term, but if Master calls for me to kneel for example, it isn't time to do a skidding stop across the living room
<shareena> rofl...
<catsbrat{CM}> lol
<`Anticipation> thats right _dove{S} just is inportant for the Dominant in the relationship to pick up on that...
<dana^^> lol
<QTIP> although i'm a self-described manipulative SOB, i'm not a micro-manager. i'd much rather have a lady on my arm in public and a tiger in the playroom ;-)
<shareena> so you are saying that you don't have to respond with a punishment `Anticipation. Just not respond to the situation?
<QTIP> preferably, the same woman ;-)
<shareena> lol
<catsbrat{CM}> lol
<`Anticipation> arent we all somewhat manipulative QTIP?
<QTIP> sure
* abitbent has left #bdsm-KW
<`Anticipation> I know I can be VERY manipulative with shareena....when I want something *grin*.....
* shardAngeli has quit IRC (QUIT: )
<catsbrat{CM}> and i am sure she knows how to get what she wants too `Anticipation ;o)
* shareena looks innocent
<QTIP> a lot of what i enjoy in scene is my exercising a seductive power
<catsbrat{CM}> aren't we all shareena ;o)
<shareena> i am still trying to figure out when he manipulates me...
<shareena> i have never recognized it..
<`Anticipation> oh thats very true catsbrat{CM}.....
<QTIP> isn't seduction a manipulation?
<_dove{S}> of the most delicious kind :)
<QTIP> of course.
<QTIP> how hot is it for most women to know they are desired and desirable?
<QTIP> nummy num nums
* kimochi has joined #bdsm-KW
<shareena> of course QTIP.
<QTIP> and of course...there's still room for kidnap/rape scenes too ;-)
<shareena> has anyone in here been disciplined?
* QTIP raises his hand
<shareena> does anyone feel they have been disciplined "chronically"
* arhiannah has joined #bdsm-KW
<QTIP> the Catholic boy raises his hand again
<dana^^> has had a gooooooooood talking too
<catsbrat{CM}> me too dana^^
<`Anticipation> your local parish priest doesnt count QTIP LOL
<shareena> how about disciplined in a D/s relationship
<_dove{S}> yes shareena
<QTIP> how the heck do you think i got kinky?!?!?!
<shareena> i have had the "good talking too", as well as the discipline
<shareena> rofl @ QTIP
* becky has quit IRC (QUIT: And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.)
<shareena> but i have never felt that it was chronic
<shareena> and never felt that it was unjustified
<shareena> and damn...don't you just hate those lectures!
* arhiannah nods nods...but i hate the silent treatment worse
<_dove{S}> my discipline was unjustified (this was in a past life)
<catsbrat{CM}> yes i do sometimes they are worse than a spanking
<QTIP> i don't know how many of you know how women took vows to become nuns. their hair was cut short at that time. my first orgasm came about as i fantisized shaving a woman bald as she cried. (naughty naughty)
<`Anticipation> to me...I see the idea of "chronic punishment" as simply an inability to separate the "having fun with each other" with "you have stepped over the line"
<shareena> it was a no win situations _dove{S}
<shareena> i don't really understand the silent treatment. how do you learn from that?
<_dove{S}> The silent treatment stops me dead in my tracks
<shareena> i would feel like i was abandoned
* carissa^ has joined #bdsm-KW
<catsbrat{CM}> i don't know shareena
<shareena> you have a different opinion catsbrat{CM}?
<dana^^> absolutely hates that shareena... it leaves me alone with my self doubts... i understand a time out but not ignoring someone
* Lady_Nichola has joined #bdsm-KW
<catsbrat{CM}> no i was answering the question "how do you learn from that"
<QTIP> i once talked to a female sub who bred AKC dogs. she told me that hitting a dog only reinforces what the dog already knows...that you're "top dog". dogs are pack animals. the "way" she said to discipline a dog effectively was to place that dog in the room with you (i.e. under a table), not letting that dog move out from under the table and ignoring it. that has quite an effect
<shareena> oh sorry catsbrat{CM}.
* carissa^ has left #bdsm-KW
<catsbrat{CM}> my first Dom use to give me the silent treatment and i did feel unwanted, unloved and unworthy
<catsbrat{CM}> np shareena
<shareena> i can understand feeling that way catsbrat{CM}. to me it seems the easy way out for a Dom. They don't need to deal with the issue
<catsbrat{CM}> i agree shareena
<shareena> i would rather be told what i had done wrong and deal with the punishment.
<shareena> and if it was the first time that i had done something like that, the punishment would be the "dreaded lecture"
<_dove{S}> For someone seeking approval or reinforcement, the silent treatment is a harsh punishment
<catsbrat{CM}> me too ..........that is why he isn't my Dom anymore
<dana^^> far to harsh...
<QTIP> question: okay, my willing partner is being a brat. if she's been successful at making me react in anger, should i even consider playing while i'm angry?
<QTIP> or should i wait?
<shareena> and most subs seem to be seeking approval and reinforcement from their Doms so why anyone would do that (ignore them) is beyond me
<catsbrat{CM}> i say wait
<`Anticipation> my answer to should wait....
<QTIP> agreed
<`Anticipation> if she has taken being a brat to the extent that is HAS made you angry...instead of being playful back with her....then playing while you are still in "anger mode"
<lorraine> the silent treatment, helps me think what ive done wrong, its a punishment that helps strenghtens my thoughts and feelings to do better in myself
* `abi has joined #bdsm-KW
* ChanServ sets mode: +o `abi
<shareena> i can always tell when `Anticipation is angry. he grinds his teeth
* `abi sets mode: -o `abi
<shareena> lol
<shareena> so for you it works lorraine?
<catsbrat{CM}> lol start saving up for dentures then eh shareena ;o)
<lorraine> yes very much so
<shareena> hey good idea catsbrat{CM}
<Lady_Nichola> hmmm.... not sure if we're talking the same thing here... but in a general sense, I expect My submissives to engage in self-discipline
<`Anticipation> awww and here I thought is was the flames coming out of my eyes...and the smoke from my ears that showed you that I was angry shareena :)
<QTIP> perhaps this talk about top=angry/bottom=being ingnored is best viewed from a standpoint of saftey then
<shareena> yes, those too. rofl
<shareena> that could be QTIP
<Lady_Nichola> if they "cross the line" there's a set formula of Confession, Punishment & Absolution
<lorraine> I agree Lady_Nichola
<shareena> self discipline in which manner Lady_Nichola?
<Lady_Nichola> but if we're talking about Chronic Discipline problems, surely there's a crhonic problem with the relationship
<Lady_Nichola> self-discipline in that _I_ set the rules...
* Rufrider` has joined #bdsm-KW
<dana^^> thinks so too Ma'am
<Lady_Nichola> I'm the Judge... not a cop
<QTIP> point well made, Lady_Nichola
<Lady_Nichola> some years aqo, I had a subject who needed constant discipline
<QTIP> at times i do enjoy being the executioner though ;-)
<`abi> cop fantasies notwithstanding....I see self-discipline as one of my responsibilities
<Lady_Nichola> it was wearing, and ultimately... no fun
<catsbrat{CM}> if i have done something wrong i say so and accept the consequences
<shareena> how do you define self discipline `abi
<`abi> so, is there a general cause for lack of self-discipline?
<Lady_Nichola> the general cause for lack of self-discipline is...
<Lady_Nichola> a lack of self-discipline
<`abi> no outside force Lady_Nichola?
<Lady_Nichola> well, I was being a little facetious... but not entirely
<Lady_Nichola> I am (in My relationships) the higher authority... ultimate accountability
<`abi> could it be lack of training, is it lack of motivation, lack of understanding of what is expected?
<Lady_Nichola> That helps empower the subject.
<QTIP> ...or just a desire for more attention?
<Lady_Nichola> it gives her the strength to make the difficult choices that come with self-discipline
<Lady_Nichola> occasional lapses are understandable
<Lady_Nichola> but if it's chronic, then the problem is two-fold:
<Lady_Nichola> 1. The rules aren't working
<Lady_Nichola> 2. The rule maker (Dominant) isn't being taken seriously
<shareena> if you care about the person you are with, i would think that you would not want to upset them to the point of being disciplined on a regular basis
<`Anticipation> well everyone...I have a few things to do before I head on the road again in the morning....I should take off.....
<Lady_Nichola> Maybe, shareena. But maybe the rules are unreasonable.. and therefore unenforceable
<shareena> punishment is not fun or play
* `Anticipation has quit IRC (QUIT: )
<shareena> then the two need to discuss it
* Lady_Nichola agrees with shareena
<shareena> if a Dom is setting unrealistic rules, that is not good \
<`abi> I would agree Lady_Nichola, regarding empowerment.... I think that I am by nature fairly undisciplined...but when I know that there is an expectation, a counter-force and that it *matters*, then, I can be quite self-disciplined
<_dove{S}> well said abi
<`abi> which is one of the things I like about D/s ... it provides that context
<Lady_Nichola> makes U/s better than we are, eh abi?
<`abi> or as good as we can be Lady_Nichola :)
<QTIP> i WANT a willing partner to be better for knowing me. i want my willing partner to inspire ME to be better
<_dove{S}> amen to that Lady_Nichola
<shareena> i agree QTIP
<shareena> it isn't all one sided
<Lady_Nichola> One of my solutions to dealing with chronic discipline problems was to change the rules
<shareena> that is one way of dealing with them
<Lady_Nichola> There is a challenge to this though.
<Lady_Nichola> If one (as a Dominant) lowers ones expectations, it's a slippery slope
<Lady_Nichola> Eventually, one hits the point where expectations are so low... they hit zero
<shareena> is it lowering, or recognizing the problem and modifying
<Lady_Nichola> Well, shareena, I can rationalize with the best of them.
<paperclip> i think that's called settling for less than you want Lady_Nichola...nobody should do that, no?
<Lady_Nichola> but "modifying downwards" is still lowering
<`abi> perhaps the challenge is to determine whether an expectation is realistic Lady_Nichola
<lorraine> if the issue isint addressed and resolve before it becomes a chronic problem, doesnt it just shows lack of respect and no self discipline why would the relastionship carry on beyond that point
<`abi> and if it's not ... discovering why it's not
<Lady_Nichola> nods at paperclip
<Lady_Nichola> Case in point.
<Lady_Nichola> Used to have a rule for one sub... to contact me within a set time frame.
<Lady_Nichola> Practical reasons pushed it from 24 hours...
<Lady_Nichola> to 48...
<Lady_Nichola> and now?
<Lady_Nichola> it's never
<Lady_Nichola> There's always an excuse for not doing something
* SirGriz has joined #bdsm-KW
<Lady_Nichola> Too hard, too tired, too inconvenient, too drunk, too sad, too happy...
<QTIP> i know of a few quite serious D/s houses nearby whose owners have given talks before some of the groups to which i belong. these houses find that when things aren't working out, it's best to say, "this isn't working out," and wish the sub the best on their search
<QTIP> one of which actually takes an active role in trying to set up the sub with another situation
<`abi> but an excuse is not the same as a reason .. .I think that a reason is more related to how someone is hard-wired ... a basic understanding or way of processing something
<`abi> for example ... I absolutely suck at anticipating expectations .. I don't need to be micro-managed, but I do need to clearly understand what is expected of me ... guessing doesn't work
<Lady_Nichola> true abi
<Lady_Nichola> and an inteligent rules system does leave room for ambiguity
<Lady_Nichola> My number one rule "Make Me proud" is so full of nuance and has so much room for interpretation... it's a blessing and a curse.
<QTIP> from the standpoint of whether to stay or go, i consider myself my willing partner's equal. the roles taken and the protocols negotiated play the tune to our dance. negotiation should be an ongoing process
<`abi> another example ... I am not result oriented, I am process oriented ... in order to 'motivate me' that needs to be understood
<Lady_Nichola> hmm... so the result (get me a glass of wine)
<Lady_Nichola> is less important than... "do a full serve?"
<`abi> yes, I'd say that's an accurate example
<QTIP> one thing that hasn't been touched upon is positive reinforcement. praise is important
<_dove{S}> very important QTIP
<`abi> or extended further ... find out what kind of wine I like best, make sure there is some on hand, find out what kind of glass I prefer it to be served in
<_dove{S}> now what you're saying makes sense to me abi
<Lady_Nichola> hmm abi (I know this isn't true) but as you've expressed it, this sounds like micro management
<`abi> that is what satisfies me ... what motivates me ... not knowing that I managed to retrieve a glass of wine
<shareena> it sounds like service to me Lady_Nichola.
<`abi> I agree Lady_Nichola ...there's a fine line between micro-management and clear expectation
* Retrieving #bdsm-KW modes...
<Lady_Nichola> so what you're trying to say abi... is that the aesthetic... _how_ a thing is done... is more important than the thing itself?
<`abi> micro management would be ....go to the liquor store, get a bottle of Chateau Neuf de Pape, put it in the cut glass, stemmed glass and
<lorraine> godnight all, thanks for another interesting discussion session tonight..... be safe all
<_dove{S}> be well lorraine
* lorraine has quit IRC (QUIT: Leaving)
<catsbrat{CM}> nite lorraine
* mas31 has joined #bdsm-KW
<`abi> it is the process of the service, not the end result which satisfies and motivates me
* Justice has joined #bdsm-KW
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Justice
<Lady_Nichola> okay abi... bring that back to Chronic Discipline
<`abi> get Your own wine, I'm tired
<dana^^> abi i really understand what you are saying
<`abi> I forgot to go to the liquor store
<_dove{S}> lol abi
<dana^^> lol
<`abi> I broke the glass
<`abi> I don't like wine, so I bought beer instead
<Lady_Nichola> "i didn't know what kind you like so i didn't bother"
<`abi> seriously.....chronic discipline may be the result of improper understanding of motivation
* mas31 has quit IRC (QUIT: Leaving)
* Paris has joined #bdsm-KW
<Lady_Nichola> so it's the Dommes fault... becuase She's a lousy communicator?
<`abi> and often ... the issue is to match the motivation of the submissive with a Dominant who has a style that accomodates it
<`abi> not necessarily Lady_Nichola can be a mismatch of styles
<Lady_Nichola> or... Mismatched Expectations?
<`abi> certainly
<catsbrat{CM}> good night A/all
<_dove{S}> be well catsbrat{CM}
<QTIP> is ModBot taking the summer off?
<dana^^> sweet dreams Everyone... thank You for this time... and another interesting topic to reflected on..
* dana^^ has left #bdsm-KW
<`abi> highly undisciplined is Modbot
<QTIP> ah well...
<_dove{S}> i poked him QTIP, he never budged
<catsbrat{CM}> you too _dove{S} good night
<`abi> can't get himself here without constant vigilence on Bernie's part
* catsbrat{CM} has quit IRC (QUIT: )
<QTIP> i enjoyed the discussion, with or without it being recorded
* Sherwood has joined #bdsm-KW
<_dove{S}> hello Sherwood
<Sherwood> hi dove
<`abi> lol..sometimes I think it helps if people know it's not being recorded QTIP
<`abi> I'd sure like to erase a few of those logs that are 3 or 4 years old!
<QTIP> time for me to be going. as always, thanks for your hospitality. g'night
<_dove{S}> be well QTIP
* QTIP has left #bdsm-KW
<`abi> goodnight QTIP
<SirGriz> hello everyone
<_dove{S}> hello SirGriz
<SirGriz> I would have participated but I didn't realize I lost the mirc and then it took me about 30 mins to find the room again,
<SirGriz> I found the tail end of the discussion enlightening
<`abi> welcome back then SirGriz :)
<SirGriz> ty abi
<SirGriz> :)
<SirGriz> is there some place I can go to learn a bit more in the area?
<_dove{S}> Have you looked over the website SirGriz?
<SirGriz> my prob is the lack of time so I'm wondering what my options are
<_dove{S}> looked at (type, dove, type)
<SirGriz> not in the last while
<`abi> a bit more in what area SirGriz?
<SirGriz> west toronto
<SirGriz> more like brampton in particular
<`abi> so, you mean events and such?
<SirGriz> well I notice workshops
<SirGriz> my prob is that sometimes I get in on saturdays and leave agin on sundays
* _dove{S} laughs
<_dove{S}> i've been to almost every event i can attend in a year...... i made it to the picnic and ONE munch :)
<SirGriz> you know that feeling too?
<_dove{S}> just a tad :)
<SirGriz> that is better than me in two
<_dove{S}> well i was coerced into going to the picnic
<SirGriz> more like hogtied and dragged?
<_dove{S}> no - bribed
<SirGriz> pretty much the same?......;)
<_dove{S}> nope - got Brie cheese out of the deal
<shareena> nite all
<SirGriz> so you were not cheesed off
<_dove{S}> nite shareena
<_dove{S}> lol no
<SirGriz> be well shareena
* shareena is now known as shareena_afk
<SirGriz> cheap bribe then or you just needed that little extra push to go?
<_dove{S}> extra few pushes, the brie sealed the deal:)
<SirGriz> gotcha
<_dove{S}> haven't looked back since though, and have gotten to meet some fabulous folks in the process
<SirGriz> well I did have someone in mind to mentor me in this but i found he wasn't gonna work out for me so I have been sorta at loose ends since then
<SirGriz> I have too at the various munches I have been to...the few that I have gone to
<SirGriz> that and surviving the last while has been a bit of a challenge too
<_dove{S}> well surviving should be a priority
<SirGriz> we are moving to a new house at the end of june so it'll be easier to play and learn I think
<SirGriz> I have some ideas but I haven't been able to work them out and see if they will work or not and I am looking at this move as an opporunity to do that
<_dove{S}> it's great to have plans
<SirGriz> :)
<SirGriz> anyway I won't do anything till this move is overwith and everything is settled and stuff