May 27 2001 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "What to do with subs who disobey when their Dom's not around". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> So... cm, would you like to give us some background, some context on the question?
<celtic`mist> well, a situation occured recently that had me wondering what sort of things have been done to maintain control of a submissive when the Dom cant always be around
* `trufriend sits quietly and listens to the discussion as she doesn't have a Dom to disobey
<BernieRoehl> So control from a distance, then?
<celtic`mist> it is always easy for a Dom to do discipline when He is there
<Styphy> why would a sub willfully disobey? Rather destructive I would think.
<celtic`mist> but what of when the submissive deliberately defies a Dom who isnt there
<`TimberWolf> is it...or is it just easier for the sub to obey cause she has no choice
<celtic`mist> there is also that question Bernie Sir, what has caused the rebellion
<BernieRoehl> I think that's probably the deeper question, cm -- why the sub is being disobedient
<celtic`mist> so i guess what i am curious about is has anyone here delt with that issue, and how
<Styphy> a sub deliberately disobeying is either, seeking attention, or it is a manifestation of another problem, or she/he doesn't give a shit, and is just submitting from convenience. The Dom then must analyse his motivations for the relationship, and act accordingly, imo.
<Wbkiri> hi all
<`TimberWolf> yes I have....and when she was willfully disobedient...I just ignored her till she choose to behave appropriately
<`TimberWolf> I agree Styphy
<Omy> Hello all
* carole{GP} waves at Omy
<`TimberWolf> ok that was a good disscussion..next?
* `melody crawls to Master Omys feet
<`TimberWolf> thanks Styphy:)
* BernieRoehl smiles
<Styphy> your quite welcome. :)
<Omy> hello carole{GP}
<BernieRoehl> So we have two distinct questions -- why the submissive would be disobedient, and what to do about it
<`TimberWolf> good job moderating celtic`mist:)
<Omy> Tonights topic is easy
<BernieRoehl> Have any Doms here had long-distance relationships?
<Wbkiri> yes me:)
<Wbkiri> I am in one:)
<Omy> yes BernieRoehl
<`TimberWolf> Yes I have Bernie
<carole{GP}> there are a LOT of reasons a submissive would be disobedient, whether the relationship is long distance or not.
<Omy> and if I find out mel has been bad...I bust her ass
<`TimberWolf> is there carole....??????????? really?
<carole{GP}> instead of assuming that she's doing it because she doesn't give a damn, is it possible she's doing it because she's not getting what she NEEDS?
<celtic`mist> sometimes i wonder if the submissive is seeking attention in the refusal to carry out issues
<BernieRoehl> So if you know that a submissive is less obedient when you're not around to correct her, how do you deal with the problem?
<Omy> Either way carole{GP}, I bust their ass
<`TimberWolf> really OMy then doesn't that just reineforce the negative behaviour cause she likes her ass busted
* breeze{JFC} agrees with carole{GP}
* carole{GP} is about to say something inflammatory ... surprise surprise...
<BernieRoehl> (assuming they're not being willfully disobedient, which would point to something wrong/missing in the relationship)
<Styphy> i wonder how many realize the destructiveness of disobedient behaviour when left unaddressed.
<Omy> Lemmie pass that to mel... mel..you like having me bust your ass with blacky?
<Wbkiri> I agree bernie
<carole{GP}> a D/s relationship is about give and take. If all the submissive is getting is NEGATIVE ... why in the hell WOULD she obey?
<{autumn}U> i was dissobediant when Unholy wasn't around once.....and it was exactly because i wasn't getting something i needed and didnt know how to express what it was
<`melody> there is haveing your ass busted.. and haveing your ass BUSTEd.. tone attitude... circumstances mean everything..
<`TimberWolf> then she shouldn't be in the relationship
<{autumn}U> i wouldn't be that harsh
<`melody> doesnt even like to look at blacky
<`TimberWolf> didn't know how...or was afraid to {autumn}U?
<Wbkiri> as fro me
<carole{GP}> if it's her only option, TW, then either the conversations have to start as to what it is she ISN'T getting... or how she CAN get it from the LD relationship
<Omy> There you go `TimberWolf...she don';t like it..thus she behaves.
<dalian> i did the same as autumn...but when confessed it i was to write an essay on why i opposed his directions
<{autumn}U> no, i wasn't sure what it was i needed exactly but the dissobediance gave way to a long discussion and we regrouped in a couple of ways that fixed it
<Wbkiri> I do not tolerate consitiant disobeince
* icePrncss waves hello
<Omy> If your gonna correct a girl..doing something she likes is hardly correction
<`TimberWolf> thanks for clearing that up Omy:)
<Wbkiri> if it is happening something os worng and it needs to be adressed
<{autumn}U> firstly....i needed his presence when he wasn't there and that can be accomplished in several ways
* carole{GP} doesn't tolerate constantly being ignored by her Dom.
<celtic`mist> exactly my thoughts, a correction such as a flogging is wasted on someone who likes them
<`melody> will agree that blacky is far more productive than isolation could ever be... all that does is make one feel undesired creates negative feelings.. nothing being learnt only a sense of not wanting to comunicate
<`TimberWolf> then carole...you will learn to behave so it doesn't happen constantly
<Styphy> i would hope any Dom has enough imagination and ingenuity to come up with a punishment that would be effective for the sub in question.
<Omy> isolation is never a solution or a correction...but a little corner time to reflect while still being present does have benefit
<cassity^> could someone define "behave"
<Styphy> obey
<Omy> I would agree Styphy
<celtic`mist> well, the problem is that the sub refuesed to do the punishment that was ordered
<cassity^> and "disobeience"
<Omy> behave is defined as what the two people agree to carole{GP}
<carole{GP}> BS TW. I'm not getting ignored because it's a PUNISHMENT. I'm getting ignored because of a lack of time and effort being given to me. I'm here for a reason, and SOME of my reason is self-serving. And anyone who says otherwise is most likely deluding themselves.
<Omy> err cassity^
<celtic`mist> and it wasnt a hidden refusal, it was a blatant, NO Sir i wont
<BernieRoehl> Well, I think "behave" means "follow the rules and guidelines that have been set". "Disobedience" is not following instructions.
<Wbkiri> at that point
<`TimberWolf> I find by and large subs love attention.....if they choose not to behave,,,cause that is what it is a choice....then taking away the one thing they truly want is excellent motivation
<Wbkiri> they need to talk mist
<Omy> I disagree `TimberWolf
<{autumn}U> i think thats destructive TimberWolf
<`melody> am not so simplistic TW
<{autumn}U> not only to the sub but to the relationship
<Wbkiri> if I were todo taht with my littleone Timberwolf I would so much trust with her
<Omy> no mel your a rubics cube :)
* BernieRoehl is of two minds on the topic of ignoring a misbehaving submissive
<BernieRoehl> I've used "timeouts" quite effectively in some cases, so I think it's something to consider. However, if they're used too often, they lose their effectiveness (like anything else).
<`melody> give me more credit please... am no fawning beast that begs mews fr constant attention.. sometimes its a need for the pair to do the most basic of things.. comunicate
<Omy> ignoring a sub Bernie is against the concept of Open and Honest Communication
* `trufriend wonders what would prompt a sub to blatantly disobey his/her Dom/me so severely......is the relationship really worth keeping at that point?
<`TimberWolf> why should I waste my time paying attention to a sub that makes the consious choice not to behave.......
<carole{GP}> there is also a huge difference between misbehaving... and refusing to obey.
<Styphy> ignoring a slave is telling her on a level that the dom is quite able to live without her, and that dear friends does not egender security and trust in and from her. Ergo, ignoring a sub is almost always an extremely shortsighted punishment.
<`TimberWolf> anything else is encouraging that behaviour if she ever feels that way again
<celtic`mist> tru, that thought popped into my head at that point in the discussion
<{autumn}U> i believe im responsible to speak up if i need something and to speak up if something bothers me or hurts me and being ignored would be the first thing that lead me to believe my speaking up wasnt worth being heard
<Omy> Who says it was concious?
* breeze{JFC} hates the humiliation
<`melody> why would i serve a Dom.. who lacks the creativity or incentive to find the true root of the problem
<`TimberWolf> now we are talking about too different things
<`TimberWolf> I am all for a sub speaking her mind expressing with needs and wants
<`melody> often times when a sub rebels.. there is an issue
<`TimberWolf> but if she chooses tonot do that...and just act up......
<carole{GP}> there is always an issue, real or imagined.
<`melody> some times the issue is simple some times not resolvable
<celtic`mist> so far the consensus seems to be that at that point there is a large need for the Dom and sub to sit down and talk
<BernieRoehl> I would distinguish between ignoring a submissive, and simply giving her some time to think about what she's done. A half hour spent in a dark, quiet room can sometimes offer important insights, and is not necessarily destructive to the relationship.
<Wbkiri> ppl just not just subs rebel when there is issue not being dealt with
<{autumn}U> if i was having a fit, then yes, ignore me.......but if im having trouble and not dealing with something well i trust that Unholy knows the difference......and he's there to guide me through it......
<Wbkiri> true Bernie
<`TimberWolf> yes and that is ignoring her isn't it BernieRoehl?
<Omy> Thats the same as corner time Bernie..which does work..and that is not putting the sub on ignore
<Omy> Be Right Back
<celtic`mist> no TimberWolf, i dont think making the sub sit and reflect on her actions is ignoring her at all
<`TimberWolf> yes i agree {autumn}U.....and when you are having problems you have learned to disscuss it
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, Omy -- I just wanted to make sure that distinction was clear
<{autumn}U> sometimes it takes a little digging to get to the root of a problem .....and he's the one with the shovel....lol
<`trufriend> corner time....same as a juvenile timeout? hmmm...back in kindergarten
<celtic`mist> it shows that the Dom has realised that perhaps the submissive has not realised that she has displeased him so much
<`melody> corner time is great forces one to clear your mind
<`trufriend> cannot words suffice?
<Wbkiri> it can melody true
<`TimberWolf> sending her to a room........for quiet time...making her go there whether she wants to or not is ignoring to me
<`trufriend> i disagree melody
<celtic`mist> then time to sit and talk about what she has thought about
<BernieRoehl> I agree that a submisive acting up can be a reflection of some problem in the relationship. However, I think there are probably more effective ways of communicating the fact that there's a problem.
<Wbkiri> but it does not work for all subs
<`TimberWolf> I have never used the /ignore key in my life...no need
<{autumn}U> i agree melody
<carole{GP}> the problem IS, as a submissive, pointing out my Dom's shortcomings can be a VERY difficult thing to do... (not that I have a huge problem pointing out anyone ELSE's... LOL)
<`TimberWolf> perhaps this is just a difference in terminology
* BernieRoehl smiles
<{autumn}U> not necessarily TimberWolf.....sometimes he just knows by my actions......
<`TimberWolf> lol carole{GP}:) dear you are adorable
<`TimberWolf> heheheh
* carole{GP} knows it, but she can't help it.
<BernieRoehl> True, carole -- it is difficult. Communication is, sometimes. And yet... speaking for myself, I would rather have a submissive talk to me and express whatever concerns she has, rather than acting up and hoping I'll deduce why.
<`melody> good gawd woman lol
<`TimberWolf> then it is al relative {autumn}U
<Styphy> a disobedient sub needs to a chance to talk, and should be heard... but lest she need power, she had best understand there is a consequence for her action and willfull non-threatening disobedience is untolerable.
<`TimberWolf> Exactly BernieRoehl
<carole{GP}> but isn't that the way women WORK Bernie? Master: "What's wrong dear?" Submissive "If you don't know, I'm sure as hell not going to tell you!"
<Wbkiri> I am with you I prefer talk etc
<`EuPhoRia> lol carole{GP}
* BernieRoehl smiles at carole{GP} :-)
<`melody> woman thing
<`EuPhoRia> thats how SOME women work cassity^
<arhiannah> communication is necessary...in D/s or nilla lives...unless you consult ye old crystal ball...no one can read another's mind
<`TimberWolf> lol then carole{GP} you would be sent to your room to find a better answer
<`melody> if you where really paying attention you would know
<carole{GP}> bah, I'd just go and play with myself TW. I'm a BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD girl, remember?
<{autumn}U> lol
<celtic`mist> the suggestion which i offered up was to deny her His bed and floggers, since that is what she craved so much out of the relationship,
<Wbkiri> :)
<`TimberWolf> LOL
<celtic`mist> to let her know how much her refusal to obey had upset Him
<`TimberWolf> is that not a form of ignoring?
<{autumn}U> that would work for me mist....i hates sleeping on the floor
<celtic`mist> how TimberWolf
<Omy> back
* BernieRoehl is fortunate right now -- is in a relationship with someone who communicates very well
<celtic`mist> it is a punishment, not ignoring at all
<Omy> Hiy DarkAngel^{rt}
<{autumn}U> me too Bernie......oh what a joy
<celtic`mist> she knows very well that she is at the foot of the bed chained because of her actions
<Omy> I hear you bernie
<fr0ggy> hi everyone
* Omy tosses up a B
<fr0ggy> sorry for the delay...
<`TimberWolf> you are late Froggy
* carole{GP} would rather get sent to her room to play with... er... REFLECT on her ACTIONS.
<`trufriend> and if she doesn't Bernie...we know You'll punish her well enough to remember next time ;)
<BernieRoehl> Hi, fr0ggy -- we've changed topics :-)
* BernieRoehl smiles at tru
<fr0ggy> BernieRoehl: : cool cool :)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> DarkAngel^{rt} and rt wonder what the topic is tonight ?
<BernieRoehl> "What to do with subs who disobey when their Dom is not around"
<fr0ggy> my apologies for being late.. I was in the shop making (of all things toys) and lost track of time
<`melody> sometimes a meer look is enough to be an affective punishment
<BernieRoehl> No problem, fr0ggy -- want to try the toy topic next Sunday?
<celtic`mist> but in this case the Dom isnt around to give that look
<cassity^> words whispered in ones eat
<cassity^> r
<celtic`mist> which is where the punishment came in
<steff_sub_tv> hi
<celtic`mist> and was refused by the submissive
<fr0ggy> BernieRoehl I hate to commit before I know i'm gonna be around
<BernieRoehl> Okay, let me know when you can fr0ggy
<fr0ggy> sure thing
<{OT}cariye> she refused a punishment ?
<Omy> Its touch being a frog these days ;)
<celtic`mist> yes, she did
<celtic`mist> actually two of them
<steff_sub_tv> bye
<BernieRoehl> I think refusing a punishment is an indication of a *very* serious problem in the relationship
<Wbkiri> I agree bErine
* dalian agrees with Bernie
* {OT}cariye did not know that was allowed ..humnmmmm will have to tell Master that
<``emerald> hello all
<Omy> I think its a sign the relationship is over Bernie
<`TimberWolf> lol that is why I ignore.she can't refuse it
* celtic`mist nods at Bernie
<BernieRoehl> In fact, I'd go so far as to say it might be time for the relationship to end
<`EuPhoRia> or change
<`EuPhoRia> relationships change over time
<Styphy> Confuscious says...a sub who refuses a punishment soon find herself masterless.
<celtic`mist> that was my origional thought about it when she refused
<BernieRoehl> Change, perhaps, but to something that is not based in D/s
<celtic`mist> surprisingly they chose to sit down and talk it out
<Wbkiri> night all:)
<celtic`mist> and for the moment things seem to be back on track
<`EuPhoRia> i think there are other options between no relationship or no d/s in the relationship
<Omy> I'd say Styphy she becomes Materful :)
<carole{GP}> subbie say, there's a darn good reason if I refuse a punishment... and if I DID, it would be because the PUNISHMENT would mean the end of the relationship.
<BernieRoehl> That's good to know, cm. At the risk of prying (and feel free not to answer, if you feel this crosses the bounds), what did the problem turn out to be?
<Styphy> i'll rephrase... she's toast!
<`EuPhoRia> lets face it, there are times in most if not all relatonships where good things have to be suspended while one or both people work out some personal problems
<celtic`mist> the punishment was felt to be too harsh by the submissive
* carole{GP} nods
<Omy> Gee mel..and you wonder where I get the "toast" comment form :)
<carole{GP}> if D/s is going to damage the core relationship, it's time for a D/s break.
* `melody laughs
<`TimberWolf> hm interesting point EU
<celtic`mist> and it was tossed out finally, then the underlying cause of the situation was delt with thru talking and negotiation
<BernieRoehl> Ah, but even a punishment can be negotiated. Simply refusing it is not the right approach (in my opinion).
<Styphy> one can rationalize, plead and whine all she wants, the fact is if she won't accept punishment, she would be toast as my sub. I'm not interested in the topping wench.
<`TimberWolf> a D/s break....oh I magically just stop being Who I am?
<Omy> Agreed Bernie
* `EuPhoRia thinks is damage to the d/s is going to end a relationship, then some serious work on the vanilla part of the relationship needs to be done...like say, oh i dunno...commitment?
<carole{GP}> yes, TW, you do.
<celtic`mist> i also agree with Bernie on that
* fr0ggy shrugs
* `trufriend agrees completely with `EuPhoRia
<celtic`mist> perhaps being a person once in a while is needed, even in a D/s relationship
<Styphy> punishment can be negotiated? Why?
<`TimberWolf> I agree with Styphy
<`EuPhoRia> yes "being a person"...thanku for being so succinct
<Omy> Who says you can't be a person in a D/s relaytionship
<carole{GP}> I'm a person FIRST, a possession second. If being a possession comes in the way of #1, I'm no ones possession anymore.
<`trufriend> D/s cannot be 24/7......"vanilla" is always going to be present, especially if the relationship is more then just paddles and floggers
<BernieRoehl> It varies from one relationship to another. In some relationships, there *is* no "vanilla" component. For better or worse, no D/s is equivalent to no relationship.
<BernieRoehl> I'm not saying that's good or bad, simply that everyone has to find a relationship that works for them
* `TimberWolf is a person...but I don't turn being a DOM on and off like a switch....it is who I am
<`melody> am slut am slave am mother am bitch am person.. am no puppy
<Omy> I disagree `trufriend
<carole{GP}> no doormat.
<`trufriend> so it makes me wonder why a submissive would so blatantly 'disobey' their Dominant partner
<`EuPhoRia> is like carole{GP}, i'ma person first
<`trufriend> for attention? i think not...
<Styphy> M/s is 24/7 when it is desired by both. it is simply the structure they both live by. I din't get this nilla aspect.
* `EuPhoRia has always said "give me a healthy relationship with a kinky component, not a kinky relationship"
* carole{GP} was married to her Master for 5 YEARS before we started to play D/s... there's a HUGE 'nilla aspect here Styphy
<`TimberWolf> exactly BernieRoehl and non of us has the right to judge another
<Omy> What is nilla? And can't there be nilla in a D/s relationship? Must it all be doom and gloom?
<{autumn}U> well this may be a shocker......but im not so shocked that someone would blatantly dissobay their Dom/Domme.....and honestly i dont need to know or understand or agree with their reasons.....
<`trufriend> so for you Styphy, you live D/s 24/7, absolutely everything is controlled in your relationship? i find that very difficult to beleive
<Styphy> why tru?
<`melody> belives you must be friends.. the base healthy and strong so when the need to communicate in d/s situations arises you are strongly rooted
<{autumn}U> i agree melody, well said
<`TimberWolf> go on {autumn}U???? and????
* `melody smiles as she hugs her best friend in return
<{autumn}U> well honestly TimberWolf.......we know the basic concept but nothing is always perfect......not sub, nor Dom....this stuff happens.....it's really how you deal with it that counts
* Styphy thinks too often 24/7 and control is confused with micro-management
<`trufriend> you'd require snitches or hidden cameras to follow them to work or shopping or to the bathroom...
<Styphy> or trust
<`EuPhoRia> yes, what about friendship?
* `EuPhoRia ponders the cocnept of partners being best friends
<Omy> You know I find that some fell D/s is all Mastre slave BS...when its not..its actually a return to old fashion values
<`trufriend> the relationships being talked about tonight do not rely on trust, they apparently rely on parenting
<{autumn}U> there's also so many questions....is it the first time or does it happen everyday?
<`TimberWolf> yes it is I agree totally {autumn}U...........
<`TimberWolf> exactly
<Styphy> to each their own.
<celtic`mist> this was the second punishment and refusal on the same issue
<{autumn}U> my life wont be long enough to analize this one.....lol
<`TimberWolf> LOL {autumn}U:)))))))))))))))))
<`EuPhoRia> then again maybe some people dont want lifelong partnerships, and theyre happier with short term bursts of fire
<`EuPhoRia> i can relate to that :)
<Omy> Let's face it..our chosen lifestyle is all shades of grey...many ways to achieve whatever the goals are
<`EuPhoRia> agreed
<`EuPhoRia> but arent people, people?
<`TimberWolf> yes OMY and to each their own
<BernieRoehl> And the goals vary from one relationship to another.
<`melody> tru.. trust takes work as does comunication.. its a growing work of art... in time it flourishes.. on ocassion fades.. but if both parties desire to see it enduoure they wil;l work to repair the chiiping edges
<Omy> Agreed TW
<`TimberWolf> :)
<`trufriend> what does it gain a submissive to disobey a direct order or instruction from their Dominant partner/parent?? to act like a spoiled child is fulfilling? i just don't get it
* Omy smiles .. Very well put mel :)
* Styphy laughs... this inevitably leads to a discussion of who has power in the realtionship, and the abdication of dominant responsiblities by the simple excuse that the sub ultimately controls.
<`EuPhoRia> i dont think so Styphy
<{autumn}U> well my moment of dissobedience was a silent one........and it wasn't fulfilling....but it lead to things that were.....
<`TimberWolf> go on Styphy
<Omy> Well mel...you have insight on what `trufriend said...
<`trufriend> the submissive has the real power, they have the ultimate yes or no factor in the relationship
<`TimberWolf> sounds like a very small d dissobedient
<celtic`mist> not if they have given up their submission totally tho tru
<`EuPhoRia> i disagree tru, if they are in a relationship where the dom says obey me or leave, there isnt any power, because there is no room for flexibiluty or negotiation or trust or true intimacy
<Omy> that depends `trufriend...in some relationships, the sub concents to giving her concetn away
<BernieRoehl> Well, tru... yes, you're right. But both the Dom and sub have the same ultimate power in the relationship -- they can choose not to stay in it if it's no longer fulfilling for them.
<`EuPhoRia> just my opinion
<{autumn}U> mine TW?
<celtic`mist> after all, what is the point of giving up submission if when you dont like what is said, you can walk away
<`TimberWolf> and with those...often just ignoring that it is going on until a sub is prepared to disscuss it is often useful
<`trufriend> if anybody has any insight on what i say Omy, then i wish they would share it with me....because i still don't have that insight
<`TimberWolf> yes {autumn}U:)
<celtic`mist> isnt that time out tho TimberWolf, just under another label?>
<carole{GP}> instead of ignoring the sub if there's an issue, why don't you open the lines of communication? maybe the submissive doesn't feel like she's being heard, and needs to be validated by the Dom approaching her?
<Omy> mel was blantantly disobedient...perhaps she'll speak to you about it in PM
<`trufriend> and when a submissive disobeys something so harshly, then i think that is a sign of a failing relationship
<`melody> tru... my relationship with Omy .. relys heavily on trust... I dont trust people.... its a hard fight.. sometimes.. that trust needs to be fed.. but it has to be there... or I will not completely submit
<`EuPhoRia> ouch on the "needing to be validated" part
<carole{GP}> (instead of "if the wench has a problem, she can come to me.")
<{autumn}U> i went into a chanel where i wasn't allowed because i knew i would get ordered around and stuff....he was away and i was missing that......so to speak........so no, not the worst......but we fixed the problem...the trouble was he found the log i had tried to toss.....i hadn't offered the info.....
<carole{GP}> like it or not Eu, some of us need external validation. is it healthy? not necessarily. but some of us need it.
<`trufriend> i don't feel that trust is the issue of whether or not to obey something put upon a submissive, disobedience is a behavioural act
<Styphy> "obey me or leave"... can be reworded into a more positive and enriching approach to life... that being "I have a vision, here it is, come join me, help me achive it, but don't try to lead me".
<`TimberWolf> ahhhhhhhhhhh
<`EuPhoRia> thosew are 2 different things Styphy
<`EuPhoRia> i disagree tru :)
<Styphy> yup... one has the glass half full, the other half empty.
<`trufriend> why bliss?
<{autumn}U> and there you have it TW...my worst dissobedient moment
<BernieRoehl> If that's the worst you've ever done, autumn, I'm very impressed.
<`EuPhoRia> i can see very easily someone not obeying because they dont have enough trust in the person giving the order ot dishing out the punishment
<Omy> That depends on the level of the disobedience `trufriend... Lets face it ...if the subs were perfect, then we Doms would never get them over our knee. Now where is the fun in that?
<{autumn}U> i agree Euphoria
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, `EuPhoRia -- in which case, they probably shouldn't be in a D/s relationship with that person
* `TimberWolf smiles at {autumn}U....the UNholy ONE is a lucky man:)
<celtic`mist> now that is a good point Euphoria :}
<{autumn}U> well i did get mouthy once Bernie but he clipped me pretty quick....*s*
* BernieRoehl smiles at autumn
<{autumn}U> and i felt disgusted with myself after
<Styphy> administering punishment is the least fun aspect of M/s, but also a cornerstone and necessary aspect imo.
<`EuPhoRia> not necessarily BernieRoehl, why cant it just mean that more negotiation is needed, or just plain old "time building a relationship together"?
<carole{GP}> PUNISHMENT is not constructive it is DESTRUCTIVE.
<carole{GP}> DISCIPLINE is constructive.
<Omy> Styphy..there is a difference between a correction paddling..and a fun flooging
<Omy> flogging
<`TimberWolf> LOL ok carole:)
<Styphy> not in my opinion carole. But I will say, it is the most often misused aspect of D/s.
<carole{GP}> (semantics are important, whatever you like to think TW.... :)
<BernieRoehl> Yes, `EuPhoRia, but if a submissive doesn't trust her Dom, at some point they both have to either deal with that or move on
<TruDomme> Bliss, would it not be better to consider common sense as a factor...depending on what that order was?
<`EuPhoRia> right BernieRoehl...i would hope they choose to deal with it before they choose to move on
<carole{GP}> if I am never rewarded for good behaviour, but always punished for bad behaviour, I will happily disobey everything he says, JUST TO GET THE ATTENTION that I want.
<`EuPhoRia> common sense? my YES!!!!
<carole{GP}> (Child psychology 101. Strangely enough it works on grown people too.)
<`EuPhoRia> ouch carole{GP} LOL
<`melody> carole.. you are def an original
<`melody> lol
<TruDomme> of course i understand the development of trust...in any kind of relationship, not just D/s...but common sense is ultra important too
<Omy> ohh and carole{GP}. I'll be sure to 'crack' mel a few for the 'cracked' porceling pit.
<Omy> pot
* `melody blinks
<carole{GP}> actually, Omy, all she really needs to do is learn to read.... hehehe "FRONT, REAR" mel....
<BernieRoehl> Well, we're slowly closing in on 10 pm.
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any closing thoughts they'd like to add?
<Omy> Ohhh I can do that...cane...on front...on rear...which is right :)
<`melody> carole... please dont help me :)
<TruDomme> and unfortunately with all the sidetracking Bernie, i feel we have barely scratched the surface of what could have been talked about tonight
<celtic`mist> i agree TruDomme
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, Tru -- would you like to moderate an expanded discussion on it sometime?
<carole{GP}> (oooooh, NICE Bernie, very smooth.... :)
<Omy> The D/s relationship is whatever two concenting adults chose to make it. There are no hard and fast rules. The rules are made thorgh Open and Honest Communication and are subject to revision as the relationship grows
<`EuPhoRia> yes, sometimes peoplsubs and doms alike just ned to be people, they need a break from the d/s just like theyd need a holiday from work or a new apartment to live in...doesnt mean the end of the world, i think it requires people get in touch with their humanity and be flexible and understanding and supportive
<TruDomme> maybe if i had more experience as a Domme with a subordinate submissive or as a misbehaving sub.....i could easily do it
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, carole{GP} :-)
<Styphy> some thrive in the structure.
* celtic`mist is still trying to figure out when she got elected to moderate the discussion
<Omy> Who says `EuPhoRia that you can't have those things in a D/s relationship?
<Styphy> it is a need like others need timeouts, and breaks.
<celtic`mist> as far as she knew it was Bernie who was
<breeze{JFC}> your sweet smile
<`melody> we have to realise ourselves.. belive in ourselves before we can submit to another
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, everyone -- interesting discussion!
<`TimberWolf> ok celtic`mist thanks for the topic
<BernieRoehl> I'll get the log processed and uploaded
<TruDomme> Bernie's a good'n at that carole{GP}
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for suggesting the topic, cm!