May 26, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion
<mist{LW}> will just boot anyone who gets too rowdy, otherwise topic is up for grabs lol
<Achilles{tr}> OK... how about this for a question... when is a person no longer considered a 'newbie'?
* Symmetre{t} knows that ... still ...... hmmm
* Achilles{tr} smiles inquiringly
<mist{LW}> hmm, not thats a good question Achilles
<mist{LW}> now,
<mist{LW}> not not lol
<mist{LW}> takes foot from mouth
<mist{LW}> let me try again
<kierana> i think the answer to that would lie within the person themselves...whether they are still newbie or not
<mist{LW}> thats a good questiong Achilles :}
<`willow`> i think it's when THEY no longer consider themselves a newbie.. an individual decision
<Achilles{tr}> How so kierana?
* `willow` shuts up and reads
<`willow`> lol
<Achilles{tr}> OK then... turn the question upon yourself and think... when was it that you no longer considered yourself a newbie... assuming you no longer are?
<Symmetre{t}> I guess a person wouldn't consider themselves a newbie any more once they develop a certain level of comfort and confidence ... and acceptance
<mist{LW}> for me i think there are two different moments when someone is no longer a newbie, first the moment when you think, hey, i am comfortable in this role, know what i am doing, and like it
<yummy> sort of like asking yourself if you are an adult or ready for sex - if you are wondering if you are a newbie you likely are
<kierana> well Achilles Sir...i think that when a person finds that they are comfortable within themselves and where they are going on their journey
<mist{LW}> the second would be when the various groups accept you as a member, and you feel part of the group
<kierana> i know i am still a newbie...and prolly will be for yrs to come...there is soo much to see and learn and taste and experience...it will all seem new to me for a long time to come
<Achilles{tr}> So it is suggested that there is both an internal self-definition as well as an acceptance within the community. Two different variations of newbie-ness?
<kierana> i can see that mist...and can agree with that too
<Symmetre{t}> kierana ..... everyone learns their whole life .... we're all newbies till they shovel dirt on our wood box
<jewel`{F}> i think that there is always something new to learn so in some sense we are always newbies
<LORD`WOLF> when one can anser that question of them selfes and answerthati am comfortable but stiil have a lot to learn and that one learns each and every day
<Achilles{tr}> Would you say though, kierana, that there are also those who would say they are no longer newbies in a far shorter timeframe?
<dana_foreveralways> i know i am submissive and i embrace this... yet i will always be a newbie in where it takes me
<Achilles{tr}> Is being a newbie intended to be a state of existence as long as one doesn't know 'everything' there is to learn in BDSM?
<kierana> there probably are, Achilles Sir, it all depends on that persons' reading on themselves and what is considered "newbieness"
<LORD`WOLF> there are some who will always think and feel they can learn all about bdsm in a short space of time
<mist{LW}> i think it depends on how much time they spend in a bdsm setting, for someone who is only able to get out once in a while the growth would be much slower than for those who can get to every munch, play party etc
<`willow`> must run... sorry ;/
<LdyAkilah> it's when you go to a munch and don't recognize anyone there as they have all changed within the year...and you've been going all that time...you are the senior, not a newbie...lol
* Symmetre{t} has been in a bdsm lifestyle 24/7 for about 15 years ..... and is a major newbie
* Symmetre{t} will always be a newbie ... hope to never stop learning
<mist{LW}> i think its when you look at what squickes others and think, hey, i did that... and that, oh and i really want to try that
<jewel`{F}> starla{TDM}!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<mist{LW}> and realise how much you have done lol
<Achilles{tr}> So it would seem that, like so much in life and BDSM sepcifically, we have numerous definitions of what is a newbie and some might 'graduate' in a short time while others feel they are newbies forever.
* kierana smiles and agrees with Symmetre Sir...i've only been in the lifestyle for 2+ yrs...actively...so, i am sooo new i am wet behind the ears...lol
<kierana> lol mist...
<mist{LW}> i know when i started out i would never have considered fire play as an option, but now, bring it on lol
<`Ronin-> ...blah
<Achilles{tr}> WHat about 'experienced' then? When would you say someone is an 'experienced' bdsm'r?
<jewel`{F}> Guny hello Sir
<MasterGuny> hi jewel`{F}
<Achilles{tr}> ..or is that even a proper term to use?
* `Ronin- hates crowds
* starla{TDM} quit
<starla{TDM}> \quit
<starla{TDM}> grrrrr
<Symmetre{t}> hiya Guny :)
<mist{LW}> i was mulling over is there a difference between no longer newbie, and being experienced lol
<MasterGuny> hi Symmetre{t}
<Achilles{tr}> Exactly mist{LW}.. if we consider each aspect seperately then we can allow them to not be exclusive of one another.
<kierana> hmmmmm i think You would need to direct that question to someone who has been in the lifestyle a long time, Achilles Sir...i have no concept of what qualifies as experienced except to say that someone who is experienced in a certain area of the lifestyle may still be newbie in other areas
<LdyAkilah> one can be exposed to but not experience things and still not be new
<Chatty> is someone baking cookies for tomorrow evenings munch? (for newbies)
<yummy> is there a munch tomorrow? where?
<jewel`{F}> Justice^ good evening Sir
<Chatty> Woodstock
<Justice^> hi jewel
<Sir_StephenS> if we think of bdsm as being a series of techniques and specific experiences, then there is some sense in using the terms 'experience' and 'newbie'
<-Justice^:@#bdsm-kw-> is there a topic on tonight?
* kierana nods
<Symmetre{t}> in a practical sense, I agree Sir_StephenS
<LORD`WOLF> i agree i very exprince in cause severe pain but noy much in play
<Achilles{tr}> That's a good point too.... experience can be as specific or as broad as we can imagine. One could be very skilled at knife play but unfamiliar with single tails for example. Experienced in one... a newbie in the other.
<Symmetre{t}> in terms of the psychological aspects ... every day brings new experience
<Sir_StephenS> on the other hand, viewing bdsm as techniques and experiences seems to be reductionist
<Justice^> hi stephen, Opal
<justagrrl^> i think in terms of experienced and inexperienced, i know i will always be learning, bdsm related or not, in my mind i tend to think of the word newbie as applying to those who are brand new to the lifestyle...that time when one is just starting to explore
<justagrrl^> perhaps they are not newbies anymore then they feel more comfortable
<Justice^> hi fiesty
<kierana> good point justagrrl
<fiesty-afk> hello Justice
<Achilles{tr}> That's true too justagrrl^, getting comfortable and realizing this is where we want to be could be the point at which we end our newbiness.
* Symmetre{t} waves to fiestyone
* fiestyone waves back
<LORD`WOLF> no matter what experiance we obtain there will always part of us that is newbie
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps newbies are those who are dabbling and not yet sure this is of interest?
<kierana> so, can W/we say then that there is such a thing as a person who is no longer "newbie" but not fully experienced either
<LORD`WOLF> yes i agree
<Achilles{tr}> Possibly so kierana... one could be no longer a newbie but still have a great distance to travel.
<fiestyone> who makes the call???
<LdyAkilah> is there a call to be made?
<Sir_StephenS> dabblers are a entirely different category...though they could be newbies too
<Achilles{tr}> Do we wake up one morning not-a-newbie?
<kierana> i would think the call would be made by the person themselves fiesty...but that's only my opinion
<fiestyone> well...someone is deciding it would appear
<LORD`WOLF> when one feels comfortable you yourself make the call
<LdyAkilah> why?
<dana_foreveralways> the I/individual
* justagrrl^ agrees with kierana
* justagrrl^ nods
<Achilles{tr}> Is it a sort of, "this is where I really want to be", awakening experience?
<LORD`WOLF> but if one thinks they know all i am very afaid that peason is dangerous
<Sir_StephenS> I would guess there are some who never become entirely comfortable with bdsm..those people are conflicted, not necessarily new
* kierana agrees with LordWolf
<fiestyone> well....i think we all know there are dangerous people out there
<Achilles{tr}> Yes, that is certainly true LORD`WOLF, there is never going to be a point of knowing it all.
<LORD`WOLF> yes fir mre that is true and for most as well
<Achilles{tr}> ut can one not be experienced without knowing it all?
<kierana> i never want to get to the point where i feel there is nothing new to learn, experience, or better myself at...
<LORD`WOLF> but i have had a run in with a fellow dom who told me there was nothing esles for him to learn
<fiestyone> life would be pretty pointless when you get to that point....no matter what the topic you are seeking to learn about
* kierana nods
<dalian> I agree with that
<Achilles{tr}> I don't think BDSM lacks its fools any more than any other segment of mankind.
<fiestyone> true....
<LORD`WOLF> this Dom is always learning
<fiestyone> as is this sub
<Achilles{tr}> Dom's who pretend to know things.
<Achilles{tr}> sub's who pretned to be willing to do 'anything'.
<Achilles{tr}> It can be just as dangerous to think you know it all as it is to pretend you do.
<LdyAkilah> what is the topic for tonight's discussion?
<Chatty> whatever you like
<Achilles{tr}> Open discussion I believe LdyAkilah
<Chatty> I know nothing. hehehe
* Achilles{tr} knows more than He used to and is less ignorant of some things but has found many new things to be ignorant about until a future date
<LORD`WOLF> i think that because of the nature of our life style the want to be and the know at alls have a good hiding place
<LdyAkilah> why?
<jewel`{F}> when a Dom/me or submissive claims to be trained a certian way but all their words or actions say other wise, those scare me
* kierana chuckles well, i for one am a subbie who knows i can't do "anything" lol too old and not double jointed
<fiestyone> lol
<fiestyone> im with you kierana
<LORD`WOLF> and one must be on guard
<Achilles{tr}> Why what LdyAkilah?
<LdyAkilah> why is this a good hiding place because of the lifestyle?
<LORD`WOLF> hell my arm gives out too soon
<fiestyone> lol
<yummy> i look at actions more than words
<yummy> they speak louder
<kierana> because newbies are easily taken in by O/others who wish to use without care of the newbies, LdyAkilah...imo
<Justice^> hello chirper
<chirper> Greetings A/all
<jewel`{F}> yes they can yummy but how a person talks to others and the words they use can also show alot
<chirper> This is actually MistressKatherine usuing my subs account
<Achilles{tr}> As an example... a claim of 15 years of 24/7 experience in a chat room like this.. what is that worth?
<LdyAkilah> then why are those users allowed to be in the lifestyle?
<Justice^> evening artaith
<jewel`{F}> type /nick <insertnickhere> with out the < > and your name will change
<artaith> evening Justice^ :)
<LdyAkilah> there are many who make such claims Achilles{tr}
<Achilles{tr}> But if the person becomes known in the community and to individuals, their claims can become obviously false or are proven.
<yummy> most people i have met have been honest - the majority of O/others i don't think have evil intent
<MistressKatherine> ok thanks
<Achilles{tr}> Over time.
<Achilles{tr}> Exactly true LdyAkilah/
<Achilles{tr}> I'd say Someone who falsely makes such claims is destined to always be a newbie by anybody's definition.
* Achilles{tr} chuckles
<MistressKatherine> Sorry A/all I am late and trying to see what W/we are talking about here.
<Achilles{tr}> It's an open discussion MistressKatherine. It's kind of ebbing and flowing.
<yummy> or worse Achilles{tr} - a wannabe
<Justice^> whatever you want MistressKatherine
<Achilles{tr}> id You have something You'd like to go over?
<MistressKatherine> oh ok thanks
<jewel`{F}> they are also not likely to go out to munches etc possibly using "disrection" as an excuse
<LORD`WOLF> hello Justice^ did not notice you slid in there
<Justice^> hey LORD`WOLF
<MistressKatherine> well can I have permission to post a link to a msn community I run in the lifestyle ??
* kierana sips my coffee and listens to the discussion
<Achilles{tr}> That's true too jewel`{F}... could be a 12 year old and mommy doesn't let them go out that late or an adult married and mommy doesn't let them go out that late. <smiles>
<yummy> again actions speak louder than words
<kierana> lol Achilles Sir
<Sir_StephenS> making false claims is pretty serous stuff...unless the person is absolutely new, or has a real good reason
<jewel`{F}> or someone that is for what every reason just looking for the quick easy kink
<Achilles{tr}> That would be a Justice or mis question I think MistressKatherine
<Achilles{tr}> mist rather.
<Justice^> I don't see any problem with it MistressKatherine
<mist{LW}> nor do i
<Achilles{tr}> There Ya go MistressKatherine... post away!
<MistressKatherine> Justice >>> ok thanks , always looking for new members to join in our chat too .
<-Justice^:@#bdsm-kw-> we don't like trolling but I don't know of any prohibition about posting links to relevant sites
<kierana> well statistically speaking, there are 4 "real" subbies/slaves for every 1 "real" Dom/me...so...the odds are there are alot of wannabe Doms out there who are only looking for an easy cyber lay
<MistressKatherine> ok thanks A/all
<MistressKatherine> http;//communities.msn.ca/MistressKatherine
<jewel`{F}> some subs are taken in though, just because a "Dom" is older and not married does not make them "experienced" it is possible that all their experience is online and will not go to the events just because they don't want the sub to know just how little r/t experience they have
<mist{LW}> yes, thats so true kierana, think almost every sub has had that happen, but also lots of subs looking for easy way of living thinking being collared is it
<MistressKatherine> let me try that again i this the wrong button ......lol
<Achilles{tr}> Get togethers like munches and brunches can be a good first lien of defense. If they won't come out then there's likely something wrong. There are, of course, extenuating circumstances in some cases but those can also be excuses to cover their ill intent.
<LORD`WOLF> cyber kind of one side i wonder how one can flog themselfs
<MistressKatherine> http://communities.msn.ca/MistressKatherine
<dalian> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Wow.... nowonder I'm so tired. :)
<MistressKatherine> and just to add it is a restricted site based on approval only and profiles are a must .
<MistressKatherine> will brb A/all
<yummy> can we stick to discussion and not getting folks to join other groups?
* Chatty Justice won't come out to meet me
<Achilles{tr}> That was approved by two sysadmins and nobody protested her very polite inquiry if it was ok to post it yummy.
* Chatty wonders if Justice is real
<Chatty> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Justice won't come out to meet anyone. I actually think He is a brilliant bot Myself.
<Achilles{tr}> One who also does taxes.
<Justice^> lol Chatty - you just want to abuse me
<kierana> lolol
<Achilles{tr}> I can't do them with a calculator.
<Chatty> ja ja ja
<-Justice^:@#bdsm-kw-> probably not hard to put one together ... but easier to borrow one
<Achilles{tr}> Any other items folks would liek to discuss or shall I start up another one?
* kierana thinks Achilles Sir has a million questions hidden up His sleeves
* Achilles{tr} is not wearing sleeves.... nor a shirt at the moment.
<Sir_StephenS> Doms with questions...the best kind!
<Chatty> woohoo, in his pants then
* kierana bites my tongue
<jewel`{F}> there is that Dom Peer again booting people
<kierana> who's got the water?
<mist{LW}> lol
<mist{LW}> i think ice is needed
<Achilles{tr}> Well, how about this then... the BDSM community is opening up more and more it seems to the 'mainline' of society. This gives folks who have an interest easier access but it also opens it up to criticisim from those who do not approve. Is opening the community up a good thing?
<kierana> ohhhhh that's Dom Peer
<LdyAkilah> no
* Achilles{tr} sips His Dom Perignon smugly
<fiestyone> i believe that like all things...it has its pros and cons
<LORD`WOLF> ice place on some parts of the body are need to contrrol over heated bratty slave who do not know there place
<Achilles{tr}> Is that no addressed to My question LdyAkilah?
<LdyAkilah> yes :)
<Achilles{tr}> Care to expand on it? <smiles coaxingly>
<mist{LW}> hmm, i think it depends on how we open it up, if its done with a little screening of whom we open it up to
* Chatty heads to bed now. needs rest for tomorrow's munch in Woodstock
<artaith> i think it is a good thing, Achilles{tr}... shining light on the community as a whole can only help promote understanding; as in all things, it will just take a long time.
<Chatty> good night all
<Justice^> night Chatty
<Achilles{tr}> Ciao Chatty.
<kierana> night Chatty
<LdyAkilah> but it's not done that way mist{LW}...it's anything goes, anything is acceptable
* Justice^ gives Chatty a swat as she passes
<mist{LW}> not for ehbc
<Achilles{tr}> So mist{LW} is proposing an open community but with some form of gate keepers to keep out the bad sort.
<mist{LW}> the only way people get in to the play parties is to attend munches or be known to its members
<LdyAkilah> yes, it really is...all you have to do is know someone to get on the list...that's not a screening process
<mist{LW}> i think we have to have some sort of screening in place
<LdyAkilah> it only prevents duplicates
<mist{LW}> its better than not having anything in place
<Achilles{tr}> That's true... it seems to come down to what degree of screening is both possible and preferable.
<mist{LW}> i dont think we can keep it old guard anymore, if we want it to become acceptable to the mainstream
<mist{LW}> but i dont think free for all is the way either
<Achilles{tr}> If the community is more open though, isn't that going to expose us to greater criticisim from those who do not approve of U/us?
<mist{LW}> a balance between the two is a must
<fiestyone> i don't believe it will ever be mainstream..not in this culture
<mist{LW}> those who will criticise us are not going to be that easy to shake by going underground
<fiestyone> it just got off the recognized forms of menatl illness of late
<Justice^> hi lvn8all
<Sir_StephenS> what kind of community is the BDSM community....is it for like minded individuals to get together...if so, it should be more or less self enforcing..those who are not like minded wont be interested
<LORD`WOLF> equal rights
<artaith> hi lvn8all
<kierana> maybe not mainstream, but at least accepted by the nilla world around us
<Achilles{tr}> That's possibly ture as well mist{LW}. Hiding in a hole is not going to help.
<LdyAkilah> accepted by nilla??
<mist{LW}> by going underground i think we will loose any of the acceptance that we have gained so far
<kierana> the none lifestylers, LdyAkilah Ma'am
<LORD`WOLF> it my right to do want i want as long as i not stepping on some elses
<Achilles{tr}> Vanilla folks LdyAkilah... non-kink. The boring people we avoid at parties.
<LdyAkilah> i highly doubt we will see bdsm accepted by nilla in our lifetime
<mist{LW}> if we look back at the battle for gay rights, we see that they had to come out in order to be accepted finally
<dalian> going underground might foster elitism within the community as well
<LdyAkilah> i know what nilla is
<mist{LW}> yes dalian, thats true
<LdyAkilah> i was questioning the acceptance by them
<Achilles{tr}> Ahhh, apologies. Your question was misunderstood.
<kierana> sorry LdyAkilah, i didn't mean any disrespect Ma'am
<mist{LW}> and they still are not accepted by the narrow minded, and likely wont ever be
<LORD`WOLF> well i am not gay but do admire the stand they had to take
<Justice^> hi lil_kitten
<LdyAkilah> no, nor will we be
<lil_kitten> hi Justice^
<mist{LW}> so why worry about them, its the mainstream we want to become accepted by
<LdyAkilah> they make up the mainstream
<LdyAkilah> we don't
<LORD`WOLF> education so that the general public can understand they need not fear us
<fiestyone> much of mainstream north ameirca...is narrow minded
<LORD`WOLF> yes i had to learn not to fear gays
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps the World mainstream is narrowminded... just in different directions in some areas.
<mist{LW}> but they are now accepting much more same sex marriages etc
<mist{LW}> change comes slow, but only comes if it is pushed for
<Achilles{tr}> I like gay men... the one group I'm pretty sure aren't after My girl. :)
<Sir_StephenS> true fiestyone...there is a puritanical streak
<kierana> lololol Achilles Sir
<fiestyone> i seem to be the voice of cynicysm.....but i don't believe same sex marriage is accepted mist
<Sir_StephenS> yeah, but they might be after you Achilles{tr}
<Achilles{tr}> It is a progression for each of these groups.... it is getting easier to be gay or lesbian or even black... but in all cases it still has a long way to go. Is that a path we need to travel too?
<fiestyone> i think some tolerate it.....to keep political favor
<Sir_StephenS> :)
<mist{LW}> that is your right to think that fiestyone
<Achilles{tr}> That's OK Sir_StephenS... My girls will fight 'em off for Me. :)
<mist{LW}> i wont agree with you, but i realise not everyone thinks the same
<Sir_StephenS> lol
<fiestyone> i accept all people as they are.....
<mist{LW}> exactly Achilles{tr}
<fiestyone> but i don't think most people do
<fiestyone> i wish it were so
<mist{LW}> what i am saying is twenty years ago it wasnt accepted by anyone
<mist{LW}> now it is getting better
<kierana> well...this one has to go and be a good girl for my Dom...night A/all i really enjoyed the discussion tonight
<mist{LW}> but only because they went out in public
<mist{LW}> night kierana
<Achilles{tr}> Same sex marriages and rights of same sex partners have progressed in recent years. They may still not be where they should be in some people's minds but they are getting better. Perfection comes slowly.
<fiestyone> true......you are right about that...
<fiestyone> nite kierana
<Achilles{tr}> Good night kierana... a pleasure.
<Justice^> night kierana
* kierana smiles and waves as i scoot out the door
<mist{LW}> yes, its almost time for this discussion to be over, perhaps since Achilles{tr} brought up the topic, He would be so kind as to bring in the closing comments
<Sir_StephenS> might have to wait till the Doms/subs start showing up on Oprah et al...
<Sir_StephenS> then you know we have made it
<mist{LW}> lol Sir_StephenS
* Achilles{tr} chuckles
<fiestyone> lol
<fiestyone> poor Oprah!!!!!!
<Achilles{tr}> Well, we've covered a lot of subjects tonight and I'm glad everybody was so open to them all.
<Sir_StephenS> lol!
<fiestyone> she'd send ya all to Dr. Phil no doubt
<LdyAkilah> i think we'd have had a better chance on rosie
<mist{LW}> or boot camp
<LdyAkilah> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Thanks very much for your comments and participation.
<fiestyone> lol
<Sir_StephenS> oh yeah..Rosie seems kinky
<mist{LW}> thanks for the topics Achilles{tr}, made us think
<Achilles{tr}> Now, I turn the mic back over to Justice... local users will switch to local news and sports final.s Ciao! ;)
<fiestyone> i think rose is gone now
<Justice^> night Achilles{tr}
<Justice^> hi becky
<mist{LW}> i will be sorting out the log, and will get a copy to Bernie
<fiestyone> thanks hon....
<Achilles{tr}> Thinking is always a good thing.
<fiestyone> indeed it is Achilles{tr}
<becky> ;o)
<Achilles{tr}> G'night al. Be well, be kind and please... be safe. Ciao!;)