May 15 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

May 15, 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "More About Protocol". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> hi Achilles{a} long time no see
<fierydezires> Greetings A/all
<fierydezires> hugsss catsbrat{CM}
<blissfuldreams> Hello fierydezires
<fierydezires> hello becky
<fierydezires> hello blissfuldreams
<blissfuldreams> How are you doing fierydezires?
<fierydezires> im doing ok i guess
<fierydezires> and you
<fierydezires> greetings Kilted_One Sir ltns
<Kilted_One> so what is the correct protocol for starting off a conversation on protocol??
<blissfuldreams> not to bad at all, just thought i'd just listen in on the conversation
<`abi{A}> Ready, set, go
<`abi{A}> or ready, Set, Go
* fierydezires smilesss
<Ausage> Is there such a thing as "protocol" or is it a myth???
<Kilted_One> well I do know if I dont follow it or have it I "myth" it
* fierydezires giggles at Kilted_One
<Omy> !ping
<Ausage> But what is it that you "myth" Kilted_One ?
<Achilles{a}> Is protocol in the serving of a cup of coffee, in the way in which the coffee is served or in the reasons for serving the coffee?
<catsbrat{CM}> what is protocol?
<Kilted_One> mmm I think it is in how you drink it
<Omy> All of the above Achilles{a}
<`abi{A}> Protocol determines whether coffee is appropriately served on the knees, on the feet or in the lap
<fierydezires> isnt protocol just the way it is naturally done
<blissfuldreams> yea wouldn't protocol be not what you're doing but how its done? is it respectful
<fierydezires> protocol is a rule or a law or whatever
<Omy> Protocol is a code prescribing strict adherence to correct etiquette
<`abi{A}> on the contrary fierydezires, protocol usually determines that something be done in a very proscribed way, which may not be natural at all
<fierydezires> thats true too
<Kilted_One> so it is a procedure to follow for certains things at certain times??
<Omy> As an example...you "could" serve a coffee with one hand. The prescribed etiquette your Dominant expects is that you serve it with both hands
<Ausage> In my humble opinion and experience, most, perhaps not all, but most of the people in the hetrosexual scene I have met to claim to following some "high protocol", are living a fantasy life base on fantasy rules and are other the most disprespectful people I meet.
<fierydezires> well thats very true you have to follow strick protocol everywhere you go no matter what you are doing in life
<Omy> That is a rather broad brush you are stroking with Ausage
<Kilted_One> nothing to humble in referring to people you have met in those terms Ausage...and I would beg to differ...it would seem you need to change your circles...
<Ausage> Yes it is Omy... based on 20 years experience in both the gay and straight leather communities
* Kilted_One is getting better at this begging thing..it works for my slave all the time
<fierydezires> when a person goes to a play party there are a list of protocols you have to adhere by going to that venue each venue too that you go to
<_dove> Those would be house rules fierydezires
<fierydezires> ok me duh
* fierydezires shuts up now
<Omy> In my 20 years Ausage, I have noticed it in both the gay and hetrosexual scene. It has more to do with the circles your in then sexual orientation
<Omy> fierydezires .. protocol deals with etiquette. As an example...touching anothers toys without permission is poor etiquette...and against the rules.
<Kilted_One> and the very strange thing about "respect" is that its meanings are so different for everyone
<`abi{A}> it also has to do with levels of formality
<Kilted_One> so how does protocol differ from rituals
<Omy> rituals have an air of cerimony around them
<Ausage> Yes Omy... but only in the hetrosexual scene, have I met people trying to live in a Gorean world
<Omy> Well that is a fantasy Ausage.
<minxy> well, for me, i define protocol as something ongoing, and with ritual, a specific act or behaviour at a specific or set time.
<Omy> sultry has a protocol for serving coffee and a ritual on coming to bed
<catsbrat{CM}> so the way a couple does a scene the same way all the time is that protocol?
<Omy> I'm thinking.....hmm another way to separate is since protocols deal with etiquette..there isn't much conversation...where as ina ritual that might be involved
<paperclip[B]> i don't think so catsbrat{CM}, for me protocol is purely a mindset that has some actions to back it up.
<paperclip[B]> for me it's the mental and there are physical things that make it visible, tangible.
<Omy> However Ausage...there are aspects of Gor that can be incorporated...such as positions and the dances
<Kilted_One> actually rituals can be performed on a daily basis where ceremony is normally a 'spot" one off type event
<Ausage> IMHO protocols are the rules of social behaviour to eliminate friction between acquaintances and strangers...
<Omy> Good point Kilted_One
<Kilted_One> that sounds more like common curtacy Ausage
<paperclip[B]> i have a hard time defining protocol...to say it's rules doesn't really do it for me...again, the rules simply represent it...but is not is. but, as i said, i don't have a clear definition really.
<Omy> Hmmm another way of defining it...a ritual is "what" you do and a protocol is "how" you do it?
<paperclip[B]> i'd say perhaps the 'why' you do it, Omy?
<Kilted_One> nods to Omy....the ritual is the "name of the practice" and the protocol is "how the practice" takes place
<Omy> for which part paperclip[B]?
<paperclip[B]> i think i get protocol confused with other things sometimes. i've yet had someone clearly define it for me.
<paperclip[B]> well it goes back to my thinking that protocol is more a 'state of being' rather than the things you do during that 'state of being' make sense? i'm confusing myself here LOL
* paperclip[B] wonders if she needs help
* catsbrat{CM} is confused
* jewel`{F} thinks paperclip[B] is beyond help
<paperclip[B]> lol
<Omy> protocol is prescribed etiquette paperclip[B]
<paperclip[B]> me too
<Kilted_One> why you do it is normally recognised as "putting more importance" on something and making someone slow down while they are doing it
<`abi{A}> ritual generally has some representative quality about it ... a kind of ongoing ceremony ... protocol is just an established way of doing things
<paperclip[B]> see, here's the thing...whenever (in the past) someone has tried to explain protocol to me, they've said it's not the rules or the etiquette but then they go on to use those exact terms to try to explain it.
<catsbrat{CM}> ya that confuses me too paperclip[B]
<Omy> Okay let's take this the next step...ritual is the what you do and protocol is how you do it...so what is High Protocol
<jewel`{F}> could the protocol be the puting into practice of said rules or etiquettes?
<Kilted_One> a highter state
<Omy> a higher state of what?
<paperclip[B]> i know we have certain times when i know that protocol is low and when it's higher...to REPRESENT the higher times i know i'm to stay quiet until spoken to, no eye contact etc and whatever....to me those represent it but are not it.
<`abi{A}> higher protocol = more formality
<Kilted_One> formality
<Kilted_One> smiles at abigaille thanks you got there first
<`abi{A}> don't know how KO ... took me forever to find the =
<Omy> How does one add more formality to a behaviour
* Omy whispers to abi...must be an age thing
<Kilted_One> best analogy that I can think of is the difference in going to the pub in your jeans V's going to a sit down dinner in your tux.....both are socializing with other but one has mor formality to it
<Omy> Perhaps we call it High Protocol because there is one.
<paperclip[B]> good one
<blissfuldreams> that is a fair analogy Kilted_One, its a good one too
<blissfuldreams> would protocol define the seriousness of the relationship?
<paperclip[B]> no, i don't think so.
<Omy> I don't think so blissfuldreams
<Ausage> Protocol defines with is it appropriated for a top to intiate a conversation with a collared bottom
<paperclip[B]> i think it could define the type of relationship
<Kilted_One> it may depend on what you mean by "seriousness"
<Ausage> *Protocol defines when is it appropriated for a top to intiate a conversation with a collared bottom
<blissfuldreams> well i mean, seriousness is how far maybe to have been together? do people enter protcol right away when a sub agrees to be with a Top, or is it at frist testing the interests? seeing how they click
<paperclip[B]> i don't think one has to do with the other.
<Kilted_One> I think that would depend on the type of relationship that you are entering...
<Omy> That would depend on the top knowing the protocol Ausage...and in the lifestyle it's hard to get 2 people to agree on anything
<paperclip[B]> i think it can be the type of relationship...some are more casual together than others. but length of time together etc wouldn't be shown thru it.
<Ausage> My point is that protocols are the rules that govern the community... not each realtionship
<Omy> My slave eneterd the relationship knowing I was a High Protocol Dominant blissfuldreams
<Ausage> Each relationship is different... and defines itself....
<Kilted_One> a strange stat that I gathered at the last workshop that contained protocol (actually on serving) was that there were ZERO new people all were seasoned individuals...all 40
<Omy> There are personal protocols and community protocols.
<blissfuldreams> thats understandable, i guess since i really have not seen a relationship based of protocol yet, i have a hard time understanding the full extend ot if
<`abi{A}> I'd say it is almost the opposite Ausage ... every relationship has protocols ... the community at large really does not have a common protocol
<paperclip[B]> that's a good stat Kilted_One but i stand by what i said LOL
<paperclip[B]> i think the older people get the more they know what they want and like and therefore have learned they enjoy protocol...i think that would be more representative of that statistic.
<Ausage> In the hetrosexual community what you say is true `abi{A}
<Omy> I think KO that as peoples experience in BDSM grows their interest in Ds / High Protocol also grows
<Kilted_One> smiles at paperclip[B] it wasnt meant to refute what you said at all...as I agree there are relationships that are based on protocol from the get go...but I think the point is that at least one of the two in the relationship is going to be a seasoned person
<paperclip[B]> :)
<paperclip[B]> ok, i'll agree with that hehe
<paperclip[B]> that's a very true statement to me Omy
<Kilted_One> do you think there is a reason for that change or growth Omy??
<Omy> Yes I do
<Omy> For me, the interest grew in proportion with my experience and comfort with myself
<`abi{A}> I'm not sure that's true either ... I think that sometimes newbies will adopt very formal protocol because they haven't yet acquired enough knowledge to 'invent' their own
<`abi{A}> protocol can be 'ready made' D/s
<Omy> Where the novelty of using a flogger wore down and the knowledge of where I could take someone with the flogger grew
<Kilted_One> nods at abigaille hence the draw to Gor
<`abi{A}> what more experienced people tend to do is develop their own personal protocols based upon what they wish their relationship to look like
<Omy> I think alot of new subs are attracted to the structure of D/s abi
<`abi{A}> as are alot of new Dominants Omy
<Omy> True
<paperclip[B]> but i doubt they truly understand it...i think in the beginning it's 'playing a role' they believe D/s to be....over time they learn the true feeling of D/s.
<Omy> Some will paperclip[B] and some won't...and some never will
<`abi{A}> what they are feeling is always 'true' paperclip ... 'true' just changes shape
<Ausage> Do we not have a reponsability to teach new people the protocols of respect between members of out community...
<paperclip[B]> well i'm just really talking about me now...in the beginning calling someone Sir really did not feel or mean the same thing as it does when i use the word now.
<Kilted_One> why would you think that Ausage
<Omy> I believe we do Ausage...but it's not a widely held belief
<_dove> Protocols vary from one person to another.
<Kilted_One> isnt the best form of teaching by example?
<shadoe> *peekin in*
<Omy> Sure it is KO...but some people are not as bright as others
<shadoe> hi hi KO!
<shadoe> we havent seen you in a bit!
<Ausage> The one thing that irritates me more than disrespect to me, is disrespect to one of my girls...
<Kilted_One> and why says they want to know anything about it or be taught?
<Omy> I think KO that is a new perosn comes in and does not want to be taught...the "If i want to touch it I will" attitude is detremental to the community
<jewel`{F}> if someone is disrespectful of one of your girls, are they not also being disresepctful of you as well Ausage?
<Ausage> Twice in the last week, people who were little more than acquantainces, have said things to me that showed a total lack of respect to my partners... simple because they were "submissives"..
<shadoe> how so?
<shadoe> please describe
* paperclip[B] hopes it wasn't her
<Kilted_One> I think we are confusing curtacy with protocol
<minxy-Underworld> i disagree, Kilted_One. i don't believe that there is much of a difference between courtesy and protocol.
<Ausage> Curtasy is protocol....
<paperclip[B]> i think it's a part of it, but not the entire of it.
<minxy-Underworld> Much of the protocol that is learned, is straight out of Emily Post.
<paperclip[B]> i learned it from B
<`abi{A}> I think that protocol goes beyond courtesy ... while courtesy is very generic, protocol is very specific
<minxy-Underworld> Actually, i agree with that as well, abi. i think coutesy/etiquette is the foundation of our protocol.
<`abi{A}> Thanks! is courtesy ... "Thank You very much Sir" is protocol
<Ausage> correction... Protocol includes courtesy
<paperclip[B]> ok, here's a theory....do you think the word protocol is used to just describe a result of actions and mindsets?
<paperclip[B]> protocol isn't the 'it' it's the result of something? of the actions you take and the words you use and the mentality you have?
<Kilted_One> I would say it doesnt describe a result at all
<QTIP> protocol sets a mood...just as much as ritual reinforces how a mood begins
<paperclip[B]> ok, why?
<Omy> Protocol is a presribed etiquette
<Kilted_One> it is the "how" something is done the procedure to follow
<Ausage> But I will say also "Thank you very much sir" to a male sub who I have just topped `abi{A} ... out of respect for him...
<shadoe> okay.. call me crazy.. but when you embrace protocol.. aren't you also embracing courtesy?
<Omy> why not say thank you very much submissive Ausage?
<shadoe> we are well.. you?
<Kilted_One> is it no the first rung on the ladder
* minxy-Underworld is of the firm belief that everyone in the scene, Top or bottom (or however you define yourself) should be required to own/read a manual on etiquette
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<`abi{A}> irrelevant Ausage ... the point is that protocol is very specifically proscribed behaviour ... courtesy is a very general, be nice, be polite, how you do it doesn't matter
<Ausage> I agree with that `abi{A}
<minxy-Underworld> but, abi, etiquette is very specific to how to behave in certain situations, down to the setting of the table.
<Omy> aggred minxy-Underworld...perhaps change behaviour for method
<`abi{A}> when etiquette becomes specific minxy, then it has become a protocol
<shadoe> okay.. i came in too late on this one.. it's about protocol.. or something.. and people seem determined to mix etiquette into protocol
<shadoe> or someting
<Kilted_One> the problem with that minxy-Underworld is that there are so many manuals out there so which one would be all be following...hence the reason for basis party rules
<shadoe> sigh
<minxy-Underworld> Etiquette has always been specific, i wasn't suggesting that protocol was different, just that basic etiquette was the foundation for our protocols.
<`abi{A}> I think that in general, anyone who has a grandmother probably knows everything they need to know about etiquette. They may not however, know everything they need to know about protocol. That must be learned and developed within each relationship.
<Ausage> One thing that is true of the Old Guard Leather protocols is that they differ from city to city, region to region... similar, but different for each community
<minxy-Underworld> Agreed, abi.
<shadoe> but protocol has nothing to do with etiquette..
<Omy> Sure it does shadoe
<QTIP> ...and so, in our sub-culture, protocols are negotiated
<shadoe> no.. it doesnt
<Ausage> but protocols have nothing to do with relationships
<shadoe> etiquette is all about how you are raised. and the social mores that you are raised with
<Omy> shadoe...by definition protocol is a code prescribing strict adherence to correct etiquette
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<shadoe> protocol..is all about the lifestyle you eventually embrace