May 14 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> I've set a channel message as follows:
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using raptor.ab.ca.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "D/s -- Nature or Nurture?". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
* BernieRoehl smiles at slutkat's clever disguise
<`slutkat^anonymous> ;-)
<BernieRoehl> So, the basic question is...
<BernieRoehl> Are we born Dom or sub, or is it something we learn?
<|Karen> both.
* ^trufriend thinks it's both....nurture helps to enhance the nature
<|Karen> depends on the person
* `slutkat` thinks
<`slutkat`> hard to believe i know...
<|Karen> nurture can enhance, or restrict...
* Hardest`` thinks nature pure and simple
* |Karen grins at tru and lets her carry on instead
<`slutkat`> i think its part of your inherent nature... whether it comes out or not... dependent upon a lot of things that transpire along the way in your life..
<^trufriend> i tend to look at nurturing as positive
<BernieRoehl> So we're born with a predisposition towards being Dom or sub, and our experiences either bring that out of us or not?
* BernieRoehl thinks this may be a very short discussion! :-)
<becky> agreed Bernie.. definately
<`slutkat`> not necessarily experiences.... more what can happen as things happen to you in life...
<Jaz^> good definition slutkat
<|Karen> well....sort of
<`slutkat`> ;-)
<Hardest``> that means experiances k
<`slutkat`> tks h
<Hardest``> np
* `slutkat` tosses an e in the place of the a
<spiritsong> i think that a person can be submissive at birth and change due to life factors though
<`slutkat`> experiEnces
<|Karen> I mean, I basically agree with Bernie...but I think some people are not really Dom or sub, but become that as a way of coping with their life....so ...their life experiences nurture them into it
<BernieRoehl> So would they change to be not as submissive, or could they change to the point where they become a Dom?
* Hardest`` points out cat is spelt with a C
* `slutkat` points out slutkat is NOT a cat
<spiritsong> they could perhaps become Dominant i think
<LrdTZ> nope just a pussy cate
<LrdTZ> cat even.
<`slutkat`> wrong agin....
* Nocturnal` thinks that people are either Dominant or submissive by nature... but life experience is what nutures the level of Dominance or submissiveness
<`slutkat`> not cat at all
<BernieRoehl> That's an interesting question... can someone's nature be changed to that extent?
<`slutkat`> good'un Nocturnal` ;-)
<LrdTZ> a tiger then kat
<|Karen> I think perhaps that cats are off topic?
<`slutkat`> that cud be arrange LrdTZ
<Valare> what about dominance in everyday life and submission sexually? how is that nutured or nature?
* `slutkat` looks at Karen
<`aqui`> because of my experience as an astrologer...I have to say we are born with it...and nature either nurtures the fated plan...or not..is my belief.
<Nocturnal`> I don't really think that a submissive person could take on the role of a Dom/me and be completely comfortable in the role, or a naturally Dominant person take on the role of a submissive, and be totally at ease in that role
<`slutkat`> what about someone who has neither Dominant nor submissive nature?
<|Karen> or both? what about switches?
* ^trufriend was just thinking aobut switches Karen
<Nocturnal`> everyone has it to an extent... IMO... whether they recognize it or not
<^trufriend> about the confusion it seems to be causing (me at least)
<`slutkat`> ah..confusion is fun sometimes tru ;-)
<BernieRoehl> So is everyone either Dom or sub by nature? Or is a predisposition towards D/s a separate trait?
<^trufriend> sometimes kat...
<`slutkat`> nope Bernie
<`slutkat`> dont tink so
<Nocturnal`> how many switches do you know that are Dominants or submissives by nature? most that I've met are one, with some qualities of the other... ie, a dominant person who has masochistic tendencies
<^trufriend> i consider myself a Dominant submissive
<Valare> then is it natural for some dominant people to crave submission?
* `slutkat` is a sub/slave
<LrdTZ> at times yes Valare
<Valare> why???
<^trufriend> and the other way around Valare
<LrdTZ> because we need to let go at times as well.
* `slutkat` only craves to Dominate when krapola happens at the office ;-)
<Valare> really? people who are submissive in norma life crave to be dominant??? I never thought of that! :)
* `slutkat` looks at Valare
<|Karen> and I think that a lot of female submissives and male Dominants are in it because they've been conditioned to their roles by hundreds of years of patriarchy
<spiritsong> i dont crave it but in some areas i am very confident and act Dominant
<Valare> what????
* OT I am Dominant when things or outcome is important to me
<BernieRoehl> So if we're born Dominant or submissive, when do those tendencies start to manifest themselves?
* `slutkat` shrugs... mine did early .. in fantasies...
<`aqui`> perhaps as soon as we "allow" them in - when we are ready to accept them.
<Nocturnal`> Are we talking about attitude in general Bernie? or the bdsm side of it, fantasies etc?
* Valare was always...indenpendant in attitude....
* Nocturnal` thinks Dominant/submissive tendencies start to appear very young
<OT> That si true Nocturnal`
<|Karen> further, I think that some are in it, because they're too fucked up. subs that want physical pain given to them because they are too damned fucked up to deal with whatever emotional pain they're dealing with
<Valare> fantasy started about the same time as puberty...but was not acted on until much later...others?
<`slutkat`> i beg yer pardon Karen?
<BernieRoehl> Both, Noc.
<|Karen> and dom/mes that simply hate....and find an 'acceptable' outlet for it
<`slutkat`> oh..sorry..you said *some*.... *whew*
<OT> Not true |Karen at least for me
<Nocturnal`> Well... look at a kindergarten class at play... you can pick out the children with dominant personalities, as well as children with submissive ones
<BernieRoehl> But those are the "pathological" cases (in both senese of the word).
<`slutkat`> mmhm
* BernieRoehl agrees with Noc on that
* Poetess` listens quietly..
<|Karen> what I'm saying....is that what makes a Dom or sub is as individual as that Dom or sub is as a person
<Nocturnal`> they won't all evolve into our degree of D/s... but it is a part of everyone's life
<OT> |Karen, I deeply care about every one I play with, and love them with diffrent intensities
<|Karen> that's great, OT. you don't need to justify yourself. I'm talking strictly in generalities.
<BernieRoehl> So in some ways, it's much like in other animal species -- there's a natural order of Dominance and submission within a group?
<BernieRoehl> And everyone finds their natural place in the pecking order?
<Valare> Dom and sub traits are exactly those I think, traits, common among humans like kindness, violent tendecies and shyness...
<`slutkat`> there will be that too.. but doesnt necessarily equate to our def of D/s
<Nocturnal`> that's what I think Bernie
<Poetess`> I agree....
<Poetess`> Which why often one can be "passive agressive"
* BernieRoehl tends to agree as well
<Nocturnal`> when you get up to our level of D/s... I think there are a lot more issues and influences involved, but the generality of it exists in all aspects of life for everyone
* |Karen agrees with kat that it doesn't necessarily equate to our def of d/s
<`slutkat`> *we* in general tend to have a lot more facets to our lives...
<Nocturnal`> I think it's the entire basis of our definition of D/s
<`slutkat`> and that brings us into the realm of D/s as we know it
<BernieRoehl> So what about all those people who never explore D/s? Do they still show those traits, in other ways?
<spiritsong> yes i think so
<`slutkat`> in personality yes...
<OT> Yes in theirt profeesional lives or family lives they do
<BernieRoehl> So how else might those traits express themselves?
<Nocturnal`> sure... ever had the controlling domineering boss at work? Or the secretary that will do anything to make her boss happy?
<spiritsong> aggression
<OT> Why would one choose to a police officer in some cases
* |Karen cautions 'domineering is not the same as dominant'
<OT> same for choosing to be a teacher
<BernieRoehl> So people will gravitate towards certain professions based on whether they're Dom or sub?
<OT> or give up almost everything to be CEO
<OT> In some of the cases
<Nocturnal`> I think some do Bernie
<`aqui`> interesting concept Bernie...
<OT> It is for Power over others
<BernieRoehl> So we'd expect (for example) most police officers to be Doms... which makes a certain amount of sense
<Poetess`> But thats not the case Bernie...
<^trufriend> any or all of the instincts, drives, appetites, etc. of a person VS. the act or process of raising or promoting one's development through training, educating or fostering.....
<Celtic_Man> but there are a lot of teachers and nurses that are subs or slaves out there too
<spiritsong> but there are subs out there with power jobs
<Nocturnal`> Not neccesarily OT... some may just lead, and do a great job of it, due to their dominat personality, without ever having a need for power over others
<BernieRoehl> So it's not quite that clear-cut
<Poetess`> Often the trend is that one who gravitates to ONE power side... is often attracted to the other..
<`aqui`> perhaps their submissive side...helps them to alleviate some of the pressure of the "power" jobs
<OT> that is true too `aqui`
<|Karen> I know that my ex is like that....just a natural leadership without ever a need to be in power, or control over others
<OT> Leadership is about use and optaining power
<|Karen> I disagree, OT
<Nocturnal`> to be a natural leader, I thjink you have to have a dominant personality... you have to be able to get people to do things, and have them want to do it for you
<Celtic_Man> °(BernieRoehl)° i dont think anything in life is clear-cut in any shape or from
<`aqui`> I think leadership is more of the ability to "see" a pathway to follow....more then physically doing the leading though - don't you?
<Opal``> people tend to follow those who exude confidence
<^trufriend> persuasion works well Noc....not just power
<OT> Persuation is one way of geting power
<|Karen> that's an interesting take on it, aqui
<^trufriend> and 'confidence' can unfortunately be a front sometimes Opal, misleading
<Nocturnal`> I agree tru... it's not always about power.... it's about getting things done, and having someone that people want to work with or for to get it done...
<OT> One may have situational power and postional power on others
<Nocturnal`> I would say Gandhi had a highly dominant personality... but he was not seeking power... Mother Theresa as well
<OT> situaltiona power could personalityt, expertise, confidence etc.
<^trufriend> positional power is difficult to deal with OT, too many take advantage of that situation
<OT> postional power at extreme you can fire the other one
<OT> true ^trufriend
<^trufriend> whether in vanilla situations or in bdsm related situations
<Nocturnal`> the kind of power control you are talking about OT is a meglomaniacal type of power... that is not having a Dominant personality
<|Karen> Is choosing to just Be....wholly and completely, and as healthily as you can....true to your nature....really about power at all?
<OT> I disagree with you Nocturnal`, it just out of business practice of out societyt
<OT> It has nothing to do with self agrandizman
<^trufriend> but personalities like Mother Theresa and Ghandi WERE seeking power, and to use that power to their advantage
<^trufriend> that's how they developed a following
<OT> Not exactly for their own advantage for the benefit of the society
<`aqui`> I think the power they were using though tru...and the power Dom's seem to want to exert...are two different ballgames...
<Nocturnal`> I don't think they sought that power... I think they had it, and it was given to them, but I don't believe they sought it out
<Bugsy45> hi folks
<^trufriend> think aobut it, in order to help 'society' as they wanted, they first needed to become important figures in their own right.....they developed the power of persuasion
<Nocturnal`> there is a difference between having power given to you, and using it, and having a need for power
<BernieRoehl> So is "leadership" the same as "dominance", or are they separate traits? And are they both traits that people are born with?
<OT> I agree ^trufriend
<`aqui`> I don't believe you HAVE to be dominant in order to be a good leader..
<OT> I belive the ones who lead choose to dominate the situatiopns and people
<|Karen> I think they are different traits...
<^trufriend> leadership is an inborn trait, that requires nurturing
<OT> I don't see much domination in a follower
<|Karen> and I think that Mother Theresa was submissive....she _served_
<^trufriend> Dominance has its beginnings as a natural instinct but again needs much nurturing
<Nocturnal`> I think there are great leaders with dominant traits... but I don't think o good leader must be dominant
<`aqui`> I agree Karen
<|Karen> she developed leadership qualities just to facilitate her service
<OT> I agree Nocturnal`, some do go with the "concensus" or flow
* Nocturnal` was raised catholic... lol... most Mother Superiors are dominant.... lol
<`aqui`> agreed Nocturnal - just becuase someone is persuasive...I don't think makes them a Dominant individual.
<`slutkat`> LMAO
<^trufriend> Mother Theresa was the perfect submissive
<|Karen> because so many began to turn to her for advice, guidance, nurturing...but her primary motivation was _service_
<|Karen> no one is perfect....
<`aqui`> was that to keep you perhaps in your place Noc? <weg>
<Valare> I would see Mother Theresa as a dominant...
<Nocturnal`> lol aqui
* Poetess` waves softly..
<Poetess`> Sorry i have to leave in the middle of the conversation..excuse me...
<Sweetone{LT}> so let me get this straight...(i've come in late) Mother Theresa was into bdsm???
<BernieRoehl> So what exactly is the trait that we think of as "Dominance"?
<BernieRoehl> Or
<BernieRoehl> "submission", for that matter?
* OT can't see any one climbing up in organizational hierarchy by being submissive
<|Karen> we're apparently generalizing 'submission' and 'dominance' beyond bdsm, Sweetone
<`aqui`> isn't the saying "who you know" though OT?
<Sweetone{LT}> bdsm is a personal relationship...has nothing to do with business or religious analogies. Dominance is a personal trait related to another individual as is submission.
<|Karen> to explain by example 'submissive' and 'dominant' traits as either nature, or nuture
<OT> Not exactly `aqui`, It saying you need to compite
<BernieRoehl> Is it as basic as wanting to have control, or give it up?
<OT> You are compiting for power to get control
<Sweetone{LT}> yes, that is exactly what it is.
<Sweetone{LT}> yes to Bernie.
* |Karen smiles 'I'm afraid I must disagree again'
<BernieRoehl> So in that sense, it's very similar to what we see among other animals... an "alpha", who leads the pack, and others at various points in the decision-making hierarchy
<OT> Some are willing to compete for obtaining power some are willing to give up control
<|Karen> I believe that a submissive's most basic way of staying in control is to choose carefully who s/he hands the reins over to.
<OT> true BernieRoehl
<`aqui`> or some are devious enough to find it another way OT
<OT> true |Karen
<BernieRoehl> Now, in the animal kingdom, the alpha gets first choice of food, mates, etc. Are there echoes of that in D/s?
<|Karen> submissives who choose carefully are either lucky or relatively healthy control freaks...
<OT> that is perfectly correct `aqui` and i love them for their inteeligence LOL
<^trufriend> but how do we choose carefully Karen? without making many mistakes along the way.....i don't think being 'dominant' in our search helps
* |Karen is a relatively healthy control freak, and knows it
<Sweetone{LT}> but a submissive really doesn't want that control Karen, so i don't understand what you mean.
<|Karen> we learn, tru....it's just staying aware of who and what we are and learning from those mistakes....and staying aware, and applying it in the future....is a form of control again....over our own lives.
<|Karen> I do, Sweetone, and I am a submissive.
<Sweetone{LT}> you want control Karen?
<Valare> I understand exactly what you mean karen...
<|Karen> I want control over my own life, yes. And to feed my own submissive nature, I choose carefully (control) who I hand the reins over to
<Nocturnal`> everyone wants some control over their own lives, the direction it takes
<^trufriend> for me, the journey into submission is what i feel strongly to be a natural path and the nurturing i receive through a Mentor, a Dom/me, or whatever only strengthens my want or need for that submission
<BernieRoehl> So we seem to be in agreement that what we think of as D/s is something we're born with.
<OT> I agree BernieRoehl
<BernieRoehl> We're also agreed about what Dominance and submission mean in this context
<^trufriend> but i live a day to day life of being very Dominant
<BernieRoehl> ...and we agree that leadership is something subtly different from Dominance
<|Karen> I don't entirely agree about nature, Bernie....it depends on the individual.
* BernieRoehl nods
<BernieRoehl> Well, we definitely seem to have a consensus :-)
<BernieRoehl> And we even have eight minutes left over!
<Nocturnal`> lol
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any additional thoughts they'd like to add in this nature vs nurture debate?
* ^trufriend thinks that is a record Bernie! lol
<Nocturnal`> I have one
* |Karen smiles 'are we in consensus when one still obstinately refuses to agree completely?
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, Nocturnal
* BernieRoehl smiles at Karen and says "yes"
<Sweetone{LT}> lol, so we are safe, sane and only partialy consensual?
<Nocturnal`> I think that there are a lot of people in the scene who are in it because they are confused about their own dominant or submissive natures, due to the rapid state of flux our society is in due to the rise of feminism and the downsizing of the patriarchal society
* |Karen smiles and goes to look up the word consensus in her dictionary
* BernieRoehl smiles at Sweetone
<BernieRoehl> Safe, sane, consensual and driven my our own nature to be who we are
* Nocturnal` thinks this is one of the reasons for the success of many pro Dominatrix's
<BernieRoehl> Interesting observation, Nocturnal
* BernieRoehl smiles at Karen and gets His felt pen out, in case the dictionary needs updating :-)
* |Karen agrees with Nocturnal
<Nocturnal`> I think a lot of people have a hard time finding where they fit into today's society
<|Karen> the dictionary, btw, says that consensus is 'general' agreement
* bottoms_up{RD} waves ;)
* BernieRoehl puts His pen away, satisfied with that definition
<`aqui`> <ggls at Karen>
<^trufriend> yes Karen, not unanimus
* Nocturnal` thinks this is especially true amongst caucasion men
<BernieRoehl> Actually, that's not a bad topic for a discussion, Nocturnal
<|Karen> so I guess there is consensus *cheerful pout*
* ^trufriend smiels
<^trufriend> smiling even! lol
* Nocturnal` occasionally comes up with an interesting insight into modern society.... lol
* bottoms_up{RD} coughs and smiles at Noc ;)
<^trufriend> well folks...great discussion tonight..gotta scoot, son's time online now
<|Karen> I think you do it more often then most, Nocturnal`
<^trufriend> niters
<BernieRoehl> Yes, thanks for participating everyone!
<BernieRoehl> I've turned off the channel message, and I'm closing the log
<sub45> Hello everybody
* Nocturnal` smiles... thanx Karen... I just think about that kind of thing
<canplay> hiya sub45 :)
<BernieRoehl> As always, feel free to continue chatting informally...