May 9 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<TheWolfe> good evening everyone!
<PanheadAL> what is the topic tonight abi
<vixen{KO}> evening Sir
<TheWolfe> it's nick change time
<Kirspin> Evening Wolfe
<`abi> TW is doing the discussion tonight Al
<PanheadAL> ok 
<`abi> I'm still having "cant count my computer" problems
<TheWolfe> abi is experiencing technical difficulties & I have been asked to referee
<PanheadAL> i know that is why i am loging it
vixen{KO} props up the crutch under abi's puter...
`abi sets mode: +o TheWolfe 
<TheWolfe> the topic is symbols of submission
<cyberbrat_> hey!i was just doing that! LOL
<`abi> thanks vixen :)
<TheWolfe> we may want to look at symbols of Dominance also
Kilted_One DCC's a black and white uniform to Wolfe
<Kilted_One> wanna whistle too??
<TheWolfe> lol KO
vixen{KO} would think that the biggest symbol would be that of a collar/
<TheWolfe> shouldn't be any arguments with this topic
<swann^^> hi hi *smile* 
<TheWolfe> What emphasis do people put on the collar?
<PanheadAL> well with alora i know she wheres a choker with AF on it 24-7
vixen{KO} raises her hand to her & smiles warmly to her Master...waiting for him to respond
vixen{KO} raises her hand to hers & smiles warmly to her Master...waiting for him to respond
<Kirspin> From what I understand there can be three degrees of Collars
<vixen{KO}> those are?
<TheWolfe> yes Kirspin?
<Kirspin> One for Training, One for Friendship and one permanent one I think
Kilted_One looks at his handiwork and smiles
<vixen{KO}> hmmm.....i can see Training....but what of just a play in a top & bottam that have negotiated scenes but it's neither sexual or that of a "relationship"?
<Kirspin> I am not sure, thats why I am here to learn
<TheWolfe> We aren't talking about symbols of ownership.
<Kilted_One> 1what of a submissive who is not a slave?
<TheWolfe> But *signs* that one is hanky codes
<TheWolfe> KO...that is a whole other debate
<TheWolfe> slave vs submissive
<cyberbrat_> that can be a topic for another week!
Kilted_One nods
<TheWolfe> What about tattoos, piercings, scarification
vixen{KO} squirms
<cyberbrat_> TheWolfe, what is scarification? i haven't heard that term before...
<TheWolfe> as well as the collar, hanky, bracelet, anklet
<Kirspin> You could add Branding too
<TheWolfe> being cut with a knife...usually a design or pattern created by the submissive & or Dominant
<TheWolfe> agreed Kirspin
<vixen{KO}> yes...there are those of modification & those that can be "put on" for a time
<cyberbrat_> thank you, TheWolfe
<swann^^> i have been tattooed with Master's signature 
<TheWolfe> What have others used?
<TheWolfe> I use a collar for en
vixen{KO} has numerous piercings...
<TheWolfe> seldom worn when we are alone
swann^^ wants to compair piercings with vixen someday
Ruffles^ does not like permanent own submissives wear a piece of jewellery that has significance for us
vixen{KO} likes that touch, swann^^
<TheWolfe> en has a necklace that she wears 7/24
<TheWolfe> I like that Ruffles
<Kilted_One> 1does anyone see a collar to mean anything other than ownership??
Ruffles^ likes vixen{KO} collar..I have seen her wear it at a munch
<Kirspin> I agree in the Vanilla business world that a lot of subs work in that idea is better
<TheWolfe> submission
<swann^^> i have seen then used for play Sir ....when the sub is not owned 
vixen{KO} blushes at Ruffles
Ruffles^ sees the collar as a signal that the person is owned and loved KO but not everyone adds the and loved
<TheWolfe> Collars may simply signify submission
<TheWolfe> not necessarily ownership
Kilted_One likes vixen collar to Ruffles .....but then me thinks my opinion is bias a little
<swann^^> but in those circumstances i believe it is a sign of protection 
vixen{KO} knows that in the Old had to "earn" a certain degree/level of your submission & were rewarded with a it a piece of clothing from the Dom or a special toy or a significant piece to wear.
Ruffles^ chuckles
<TheWolfe> agreed swann
<Kilted_One> 1does anyone know anyone who wears a "protection collar" r/l??
<Kilted_One> 1or is that just an IRC thing?
<TheWolfe> I do
vixen{KO} knows that in some of the large fet clubs...that merely having a collar on is the bestest way to advertise that you are submissive...if it is a locked one, that signifies ownership
Ruffles^ has never heard of it in r/l Kilted_One...but you see it often on irc
<swann^^> i have seen it used only when at a munch or other bdsm function 
<TheWolfe> saw it at the last play party
<TheWolfe> used to ward off Doms
<Kirspin> Probably  agood idea as there are more Doms that there are subs usually
<TheWolfe> it worked!
<cyberbrat_> i *considered* it to ward off Doms
<cyberbrat_> but i decided to be more direct.
<vixen{KO}> or it can also be used as a "warning" to other Dom/mes that a particular sub is a tad green, but being taught
<TheWolfe> true enough
<Kilted_One> 1was that a protection collar or a collar worn for protection?
<swann^^> a collar for protection in my opinion Sir 
<vixen{KO}> there are both kinds, Master....and it is hard to tell just at a glance which is which...
<vixen{KO}> unless you consider the lock/unlock thingy\
Kilted_One smiles at swann and says...."No need for the Sir swann....thanks"
<Kilted_One> 1yes that is true but the wearer knows
<TheWolfe> I assume by a protection collar you mean one placed there by a Dominant
<swann^^> *smile* 
<Kilted_One> 1yes Wolfe
Ruffles^ thinks one of the biggest problems with the use of symbols is they can mean different things to different people
<vixen{KO}> agreed Ruffles
<TheWolfe> agreed Ruffles
<TheWolfe> What symbols are universal?
Ruffles^ is trying to think of some that have a concrete universal meaning Wolfe...
^meow^ wonders what does vixen{KO} mean about the lock/unlocky thing ... does that mean there is a difference in the collar?
<vixen{KO}> but at the same time there can and are generalities, tho...but for the most part, they are speculative...and should be asked directly for a definitive meaning.
<swann^^> i don't wear a collar..... 
<Kilted_One> 1universal maybe difficult but more common maybe "A locked collar"
<Ruffles^> I like the lock/ unlock on the collar that vixen{KO} mentioned but everyone would have to know the meaning of the lock
<kermy^_^> hi All :)
<vixen{KO}> yes, meow....i have seen parties where unowned/spoken4 submissives simply wore a collar...with no locking anything to signify the fact that they are submissive
<Kilted_One> 1well meow there are collars that simplty buckle and then there are others tha lock
<swann^^> and there are others that look like jewerly so that it can be worns descretely 24/7 
^meow^ nods, having worn both kind ... and wondered if the lock meant something different to others, because she knew what it meant to her
<TheWolfe> There are some who put on their own collars
<Kilted_One> 1but is that just to "fool" the populace into thinking something that it is not Wolfe?
<TheWolfe> en has her collar put on by Me
swann^^ has never put on my own collar...
<TheWolfe> perhaps KO
<swann^^> i don't wear a collar unless or until Master tells me to bring it to Him 
<TheWolfe> that is not necessarily a bad thing *smile*
Kilted_One smiles at the "my collar"
<swann^^> *laughing* .... 
Ruffles^ chuckles
vixen{KO} has mistakenly referred to Master's KO-lar as "hers" too...
vixen{KO} blushes
<^sas> goodeveing all
<Kilted_One> 1swann I'm sure you meant your Masters collar that you are permitted to wear??
<TheWolfe> What about more subtle ways? 
<swann^^> yes but since i wear His mark, i don't think of the collar in the same vein...and i keep it with me all the time unless or until Master tells me to bring it to Him 
<swann^^> hense i goof... 
<swann^^> and called it my collar 
<Kilted_One> 1what about wrist cuffs?
<TheWolfe> non-tangible?
<TheWolfe> What about actions that symbolize submission?
vixen{KO} believes to some that wrist cuffs & anklets & the like can be very tangible to some...
<TheWolfe> abreed vixen
<swann^^> i am not permitted to ask a question of a Dominant without permission of the Dom/me 
<TheWolfe> agreed even
<Kilted_One> 1have you a couple of non tangibles in mind Wolfe?
<TheWolfe> how does one ask permission if one can't ask a question?
<Ruffles^> the nontangible symbols have much more meaning to me TheWolfe...they symbolize a devotion greater than just play
<^brandy> that would be more of a restriction, than an act of submission
<swann^^> *smile* that is the only question i may ask......may i please ask a question ..and then i am to say what it is about .....
<TheWolfe> non-tangibles are subtle...such as a look or a lowering of the eyes
<TheWolfe> or a owrd
<TheWolfe> word
<swann^^> when i went to the play party last year people thought i was a snob because i didn't initiate a conversation  
<^^humble> hello everyone
vixen{KO} wonders where/when we cross the line from non-permanent symbols to those that to change a person for the rest of their lives.
Ruffles^ thinks that is a good point vixen...for me it occurs as the relationship grows...
<TheWolfe> What about symbols of Dominance?
<Kilted_One> 1one of the drawbacks of your submission swann I guess
<TheWolfe> aside from the telltale flogger hanging from ones' side...
<cyberbrat_> Tom wears a pair of handcuffs on his jacket,but i think those indicate interest in bdsm, not Dominance
<cyberbrat_> ARE there symbols of Dominance?
cyberbrat_ peers at the Dom/mes
<TheWolfe> good question!
<^brandy> the letters on teh collars/tatoos, etc....
<swann^^> *laughing* funny i didn't think of it as a drawback......i believe people understand in time after they get to know me 
vixen{KO} knows that some Dom/mes wear such things as collars & cuffs as this is where it gets murky
<TheWolfe> that would be a symbol of ownership
<Ruffles^> good question cyberbrat_...but yes I think there is..they are just more of a non tangible nature
<TheWolfe> agreed vixen
<cyberbrat_> Achilles leather-wrist bracers give an appearance of Domiance.
<TheWolfe> I intend on getting a brand
<^brandy> would the collar would be...
<vixen{KO}> true brat
Kilted_One smiles and thinks that there are a having the handle end of the leash.....the keys to the locks..
<cyberbrat_> what kind of brand, TW?
`abi sets mode: -o `abi 
<TheWolfe> lol...well, when the symbols are translated it would show My place in the community as a Dominant
vixen{KO} touches her thigh at the mention of brands & smiles at her Master
cyberbrat_ rubs her head and decides that she has *much* to learn...
^sas bids all adou..
<Kilted_One> 1would anyone disagree that you can tell a Domme more easily due to the way she dresses than a apossed to a sumissive male/female?
<`ladykatz> please explain what you mean TheWolfe
<TheWolfe> at a party...yes KO
<Ruffles^> only in the play party scene Kilted_One
<TheWolfe> it is a brand that I have designed that has particular significance to Me
<Kilted_One> 1that was what I was reffering too.....I think in pvt you would know by the persons natural demeanor
<TheWolfe> it isn't self explanatory such as "I am a Dom"
<cyberbrat_> will it be on You, TW?
<TheWolfe> yes brat
<TheWolfe> What about at a munch?
<TheWolfe> Who are the Doms & who are the submissives?
<cylen> Good evening
<cyberbrat_> that can be very hard to tell, TW
<Kilted_One> 1what about simple things like submissives using "Sir and Ma'am"
<Deb^digr> often you can tell by the demeanour... not always tho
<TheWolfe> good point KO
cyberbrat_ agrees with Deb
<Kirspin> At a Party, it is easier, at a Munch unless there are outward signs like a Collar or anklet it is harder
<vixen{KO}> name tags help BIG time!!!
Ruffles^ was just thinking the same thing vixen{KO}
<cyberbrat_> but KO, not all submissives use Sir and Ma'am...
Kilted_One chuckles for more that just D/s lass
vixen{KO} ^5's the Ma'am
cyberbrat_ likes those name tags
<cyberbrat_> and name *hats* 
<Deb^digr> some would argue that the "sir/ma'am" stuff feels artificial if they're newbies etc.
<vixen{KO}> ;)
<Kilted_One> 1yes that is true brat, I myself encourage ppl not to use Sir
<TheWolfe> name tags work *smile*
Ruffles^ smiles at vixen{KO}
<vixen{KO}> that's another whole topic, Ma'am....not sure it fits for the symbolism thingy...
<swann^^> but to some of feels very artifical not to use it 
`lucius will wear his collar at the munch tommorow
<Deb^digr> disagree vixen... if they would also see outward symbols in the same light
<TheWolfe> so, there isn't anything that we can say is universal outside of a play party?
vixen{KO} uses those monikers sparingly...and it's not something that becomes second's a respect thingy...
<cyberbrat_> KO, why do you discourage the use of Sir for you?
<Deb^digr> are we speaking in a bdsm setting or also in vanilla situations
<TheWolfe> any setting Deb
<Deb^digr> thanks W
<swann^^> i use Sir and Ma'am in almost every setting 
vixen{KO} nods with Deb
<Kilted_One> 1KO is trying to make submissives aware how important calling one "Sir" really is....I think it should be earned....not just "given"
<cylen> I agree KO
<`abi> who decides when it has been earned KO?
<TheWolfe> Sir & Ma'am can be used to symbolize submission, as far as arguing their merits, well, again, another topic I think
^meow^ agrees with Kilted_One, about the "earned" part ... but notes that his twin brother had different ideas
<Kilted_One> 1the submissive of course abi
<swann^^> do you feel that if i call you Sir taht it takes away from the respect that i give.... 
<Ruffles^> subs call me my name most of the time..but I am just egocentric enough to believe that it alone should hold enough reference...and also...can slip in vanilla situations when you are 24/7
<Deb^digr> digger just said he errs on the side of courtesy when using honorifics at a munch... but could withhold/retract it immediately
<Kilted_One> 1well cant control all of his actions meow
<TheWolfe> we digress
<swann^^> i usually take it away if i don't respect somebody and that is why i find it hard not to say Sir to you Kilted_One 
<Deb^digr> ok... apologies for coming in late... would someone restate the original question/premise? thanks
<Kilted_One> 1no swann I dont think it takes away....
<TheWolfe> The topic is symbols of submission
<vixen{KO}> agreed TheWolfe....back to symbolism of submission
<TheWolfe> or...Symbols of Dominance
<Deb^digr> yes I know... but you mean *only* physical symbols then?
<Deb^digr> i.e. leashes, collars etc?
<`lucius> I find the looks I get while collard rather interesting.
<Kilted_One> 1however how many times have you had to erase "Sir" since I said that it was not necessary to use it
<`abi> but if it is the submissive who decides when it has been earned KO, then why do you discourage it....perhaps a submissive has decided that you have earned it
Deb^digr tends to consider all the rituals symbolic
<swann^^> i was told not to use it so i don't put it in... 
<cylen> If is understand Deb...perhaps lowered eyes??  (am i close?)
<swann^^> otherwise that would be a sign of disrespect to you 
<TheWolfe> Topic shift....honorifics..good or bad?
<Kilted_One> 1then I would expect and have allowedsubmissives to say just that abi...and then it is allowed
vixen{KO} ^5's cylen.....Good one!!!
cylen grins at vixen
<TheWolfe> thank you cylen
<`lucius> I belive it depends on the situation TheWolfe
<Deb^digr> did I get an answer?  are we here to discuss only the outward symbols.... ?
<TheWolfe> What does lucius?
<cylen> Sometimes it is more nervous reaction though....
<`lucius> the use of honorifics
<TheWolfe> no DEb
<TheWolfe> symbols in general
vixen{KO} agrees with Deb....there are those that are outward & those that are not...
<Kilted_One> 1swann you may say that you feel I have earned it and would like to use it
<TheWolfe> take it away abi...honorifics has the floor
<swann^^> Kilted_One Sir ..i have seen how you are with people and i would appreciate permission to use Sir when i speak to you 
<`lucius> In ponyplay, honorifics have little use.
<swann^^> i don't use the term lightly and only as a sign of the respect i feel you deserve 
<Kilted_One> 1then use it swann  and ty for the courtesy
<swann^^> Thank you Sir 
<tvsubbie4you> evening A/aall
<TheWolfe> perhaps swann, you could pm KO & discuss it there 
<TheWolfe> with His permission of course
Kilted_One chuckles
<Kilted_One> 1no need
Deb^digr has worn a Domme collar and had it mistaken as a sub collar
vixen{KO} spits out the bit long enough to smile and wink at `lucius
Deb^digr also has body piercing/rings that could be taken as 'sub' jewellery, tho I wear them for MY pleasure
vixen{KO} nods at Deb....mentioned just that kinda thing earlier...
<`lucius> pardon me Deb^digr...but is there and outward difference between the two...I've not seen a Domme collar.
<TheWolfe> exactly Deb
<Deb^digr> yes lucius... a Domme collar never has rings and often has spikes... it's a safety feature in case a male sub overreacts and goes for the throat upon release
`lucius smiles at vixen and jingles his halter bells
<TheWolfe> dogspikes are very effective
<cylen> I have a collar like is in my goth drawer (g)
<Deb^digr> I agree, but I don't like the dog collar image
vixen{KO} LOVES the look of bullets/spikes on a Dominants collars/cuffs
<cylen> They are beautiful ...
<cylen> i agree vixen :)
<Deb^digr> impractical for this Domme since I like high collared shirts.... spikes would snag 
<TheWolfe> What about footwear?
<vixen{KO}> true...not every Dominant can nor wants to pull off that kinda look, tho....which yet again goes back to the point that all this symbolism is a personal thingy...
<Deb^digr> I love the thigh highs...but again that's a personal taste. I'd wear em if everyone else decided they were declasse
vixen{KO} thinks footwear is a grey area...
Ruffles^ does not wear spiked heels..cause they hurt my feet..and am not into my own pain..would not matter if that was the subs fetish for me to wear it or not
<cylen> Anyways....I do not use Sir/Ma'am without knowing the person and respect all but one case...If i am introduced by One that i respect i tend to use the Sir/Ma'am then as well...out of respect for the One who is putting themselves out to introduce me...
`lucius loves boots.
<Kirspin> I would love to be able to wear boots, but thanks to a war wound, I cant
<TheWolfe> What about boots, sandals, spiked heels, thigh highs, barefoot
<cylen> steel toed boots :)
<TheWolfe> lol yes cylen
vixen{KO} thinks that most fet-footwear is so subjectable to that of the role-play, that most of it is purely questionable as to it's symbolism
<TheWolfe> any symbolism there?
<`lucius> ...patent leather thigh-high lace up pony boots...
<cylen> running shoes with socks??  that is popular at fet clubs :)
Ruffles^ agrees with vixen{KO}
vixen{KO} used to have a sub who had a "Ked's
<vixen{KO}> oops..
<vixen{KO}> Ked's fetish
<vixen{KO}> so hence the runners & socks, yes
<Deb^digr> Wolfe I've read that the idea of height is important in a Domme for a male sub.... the illusion of 'not walking on the ground'
<Kilted_One> 1well would be hard to think the person wearing 7" ballet pumps doing a balancing act on them was a Dom/me??
vixen{KO} can only think of maybe Ballet spikes that could be just one role
vixen{KO} winks at Deb
<TheWolfe> I have heard some Dommes search specifically for subs that are taller than themselves
<vixen{KO}>'s a personal taste thingy...not a universally accepted symbol
<Deb^digr> has anybody listed all the 'symbols' that we're considering tonite?  I recall collars and tatoos on the list
<cylen> Good night All...
<`lucius> the chances of a Domme being taller than me are pretty slim.
<vixen{KO}> yes, Ma'am....we discussed those issues earlier...did you wanna bring up something specific bout them?
Deb^digr blushes.... geez... trying to catch up and not blunder.....
<`ladykatz> isn't there some type of jewellery that people in the lifestyle wear? 
cyberbrat_ hugs Deb...s'okay Deb^digr
<TheWolfe> We'll end the discussion for the purposes of the log but feel free to carry on
<Deb^digr> when digger was in Bosnia he couldn't wear jewellery of any kind, nor anything obvious so I had a pair of dogtags engraved
vixen{KO} loves that idea Deb...
Deb^digr reminds all that digger is here too... just me typing (digger waves)
<TheWolfe> en wears a necklace 24/7
`lucius has an engraved padlock
swann^^ has an engraved butt
<swann^^> *giggle* 
^meow^ waves her thanks to the individuals who conducted a very informative discussion tonight