May 7 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<Kilted_One> Discussion in progress. Tonights topic is "Who Is Really In Control.. the Dom/mes or the Subs?"
<Kilted_One> Your moderator for this week will be kathryn.
<Kilted_One> Please refrain from Walton style hello's and bye's.
<Kilted_One> posted that auto greetings too
<BernieRoehl> Okay, I'll turn my auto-greet off :-)
<Kilted_One> better two that none??
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> I think yours will do fine, KO :-)
<Kilted_One> greetings lil^bear^...how are you feeling??
<lil^bear^> good good!!!!!!!!!!
<kathryn_ehbc> Ok.. before we start the discussion lets assume that safe, sane , and consensual applies to all situations being discussed ?
<lil^bear^> how is everyone???
<Kilted_One> goooood to hear lass
* BernieRoehl nods
<kathryn_ehbc> guess its time then....
<kathryn_ehbc> Ok i suggest that its the subs that have the actual control .. any comments to start things off ?
* Kilted_One notes for the record that this is being logged and will be psoted so anyone wishing to leave should do so or change their nick
<`vixie> hmmm, i think it depends on what type of control you are talking about kathryn
<LrdThomas> if the sub has actually control then he/she has not submitted...let's call it the way it is.
<Leathersmith> or the "contract" terms
<dalian> if it is consensual...then i agree that the sub would have the control
<kathryn_ehbc> do you want to elaborate vixie ?
* `vixie ponders
<kathryn_ehbc> my reason for my statement is just that " consensal " the sub has the power/right to stop things at any point in the activities or relationship
* `vixie is finger-tied and can't think of how to elaborate kath
* lady`hawke wonders then if she has truly submitted then
<LrdThomas> then she hasn't submitted kathryn.
<`vixie> but so does the Dom/me
<kathryn_ehbc> but in saying that i am going to assume that the sub is not playing head games
<Leathersmith> remembering that ssc is assumed, then if true surrender has occured, is not the Dom in control if he Exercises his given rights (and resposibilities)?
<dalian> however the control would shift if at which time a sub/slave consents to a total power exchange....her control would end at that time
<kathryn_ehbc> but has reached a limit and calls a halt
<^^blush^^> Do safe words not automatically put the control in the hands of the sub???
<kathryn_ehbc> thats my point blush
<fire{RB}> some subs have no safe words..
<dalian> it does in my books, blush
<Leathersmith> thats an emergency
<lady`hawke> i dont think reaching a limit implies that the Dom is not in control tho, rather that the submissive has tried her best, would not the Dom want her to state she has reached that point
<kathryn_ehbc> and again as things change the implied donsent changes as well does it not ? even in a tpe ?
<kathryn_ehbc> oops typo
* fire{RB} wiggles her toes
<kathryn_ehbc> doesnent = consent
* Kilted_One is and Engineer and equates this to a steam engine.....if the stoker keeps stoking the fire the steam engine keeps running..he is in control....if he stokes too hard the safety valves lift and release steam....he is still in control...even after a safety trips
<Leathersmith> good analogy KO
<Donald_{nat}> Leaving out the factor of the safe word, just the fact that a discussion on limits & activities took place before a session, put the sub in control as she had to agree the activities or the Dom/me wouldn't have the authority that they have in the session
* BernieRoehl also likes KO's analogy
<^^blush^^> ok.. but what about limits... are they not a form of control as well?
<LrdThomas> lady hawke, i understand your point but comment implies the sub knows and decides where her limit is. So i pose this...what if the Dom knows more about the journey that he is taking her on and knows reasonably she can go beyond her percieved limit. Does the safeword take away his abililty to do that?
* `zee{LQ} awaits to see if this is good!
<Leathersmith> but lets remember that Doms have limits too and can call a safe word
<`vixie> that's very true Leathersmith
* Kilted_One thinks that opps is the only Dom safe word that he knows
<dalian> lol
<^^blush^^> lol
<lady`hawke> i dont think Sir that another person can truly decide what limits or pain tolorance one has, and there has to be some way of letting the Dom know you have reached that point for yourself
<`zee{LQ}> that is true LrdThomas Sir and there in lies the greatest responsibilty.. the Dom knowing more of her soul then she does
<Leathersmith> and oops may suffice in an established relationship, a fledgling one may not survive oops
<lady`hawke> the Dom can choose to push beyond that point, and if she then refuses, yes, there would be a problem with who is in control
<kathryn_ehbc> hmmmmm LrdThomas if a safe word is uttered and you go beyond that are you then not violating the trust between you and the sub thene eg pushing limits?
* Kilted_One smiles at Leathersmith and says that is true but it was meant as a joke only ;)
<kathryn_ehbc> and that can open up a whole other can of worms./. eg soft and hard limits
<Leathersmith> what was the point of a safeword in the first place?
* fire{RB}^ wipes herself off
<Leathersmith> LOL thanks KO
* Kilted_One has to leave and re-boot
<kathryn_ehbc> Ok here is another example.. you haver previously negotiated activities . limits etc
<LrdThomas> kathryn, let me first put a frame of reference here...sweetone wears my collar, in doing so she places 100% trust in me..she has no safeword. A casual play partner i may top, could have one but i would doubt i would play with her. They either trust me or they don't and i'm not interested if they don't.
<`zee{LQ}> i feel that within a scene there is an ever exchange of control or power..back and forth till the end
<kathryn_ehbc> but in the middle of the scene the dom demands the sub do something completely new and not previously discussed ?
<`zee{LQ}> then kathryn_ehbc within that deep trust she would obey
<`zee{LQ}> and put that 100% trust in her Master for her well-being before and after the play
<kathryn_ehbc> ok here we go into different kinds of relationships.. eg.. those where deep trust has been established over time ?
<kathryn_ehbc> as opposed to casual etc...
<BernieRoehl> I think that over time a submissive does reach the point where she trusts enough that her Master can take her to new places
<`zee{LQ}> yes i would agree kathryn_ehbc.. different kinds are handled differently
<lady`hawke> so then the question becomes moot, for would not a caring Dom not ask his submissive to do something he knows she would not be able to handle
<Leathersmith> it makes a Big difference in the discussion, the longevity/trust factor
<BernieRoehl> However, even in those cases, I would expect a submissive to safeword if there were something seriously wrong (sudden unexpected breathing problems, things like that)
<Donald_{nat}> even in a deep trust relationship, that trust is there because the Dom/me respected limits up to that point and the sub allowed the Dom/me to go further, so the sub is still in control
<lady`hawke> also if the submissive is a new one or one who has been in the lifestyle for a while r/l
<`zee{LQ}> is the sub in control or is she simply submitting?
<kathryn_ehbc> yes it does./ but many of us have had experiences with dom/mes and subs wheere that trust has been violated
<kathryn_ehbc> so trust will not come easily
<^^blush^^> is the sub not in control because he/she CHOOSES to submit???
<`zee{LQ}> nor should it kathryn_ehbc.. it is scary when total trust does happen!
<kathryn_ehbc> in my own case the Dom/me would have to prove to me thru words, actions and deeds over time that they have earned my trust
<lady`hawke> by that same token tho is not the Dom in contro because he allows the submissive to submit then
<lady`hawke> control even
<`zee{LQ}> then you can say.. is the Dom not in control for He chooses to accept that submission and care for it?
<LrdThomas> i understand the panic i hear in some submissives voices during these discussions about control. What i think all need to understand is that regardless of the depth of the relationship, be it M/s or top/bottom, a good Master/top takes a new partner slowly step by step down whatever path is chosen. There is a misconception that a Master must go to a subs limits immediately or be perceived as weak. That isn't the case.
* Kilted_One thinks of another analogy..the driver of a car is in control....the wheel falls off and it cannot proceed....the driver is still in control of the car
<BernieRoehl> I liked your first analogy better :-)
<kathryn_ehbc> :)
<Leathersmith> i thought the definition of submission was surrender of control within Mutually agreed limits, doesn't that make limit control even for both Top and bottom then?
<BernieRoehl> If the wheel falls off my car when I'm on the 401, I'm not necessarily going to be in control of the vehicle
<Jaz^> I agree totally with you Lrd Thomas. An excellent point.
<kathryn_ehbc> the wheel could fall off and end up putting you in an accident with serious injury through no control of your own though :)
<^^blush^^> so if my Dom/me decided that they wanted to take me into needle play.. and i refused as taht is a serious phobia of mine.. does that mean that i'm not truly submitting???
* Kilted_One thinks that Bernie is still remembering his brush with a truck on the 401
<Leathersmith> LrdThomas i like that viewpoint
* `zee{LQ} jumps in the car thing.... if the Dom ignores the oil light or doesn't read it properly.. the engine will fail Him at some point
<OT> May be we should ask ourselves, what do we mean by "control"
* BernieRoehl smiles and nods at KO
<kathryn_ehbc> good point OT
<Leathersmith> blush, what i you wanted needle play and Dom said that was beyond his limits?
<Kilted_One> Good point LT....why is it that some think that we "must' push the limits right away that there is no natural build up when both are "feeling" each other out....checking for signs...becoming familiar with each other
<BernieRoehl> If you've told your Dom/me about your phobia, then why would they proceed?
<`zee{LQ}> ^^blush^^.. you may not like my answer but yes.. that would mean that you are not totally submitting to your One.. to trust in Him/Her to know of your fear and watch for your emotional well-being
<dalian> that's what i would ask...but doesn't mean that a Dom wouldn't try that
<^^blush^^> i agree completely.. but what i'm asking is whether or not my refusual or unwillingness to proceed means that i'm taking away control i shouldn't be?
<^^blush^^> do i have the right to say no to that and still call myself a submissive?
<Leathersmith> consensual
<LrdThomas> bingo zee! :)
<BernieRoehl> Since the relationship is based on consent, then yes -- to me, health issues (including true phobias) are things that need to be respected.
<OT> Is being submissive a state of mind or submiting yourself to some actions?
<Jaz^> Yet isn't this a hard limit. If a submissive has told her Dom/me that it is a hard limit the Dom/me should not explore that area.
<BernieRoehl> If a sub says "no electrical play of any kind, because I have a pacemaker" then I respect that.
<lady`hawke> if we do not have the ability to let the Dom know we are having trouble handling the limit, then dont we run the risk of just being slaves, rather than submitting thru willingness?
<`zee{LQ}> it is hard to call that blush.. for if your Dom handles it slow and cautiously to help you overcome that phobia..then you could trust in Him.. if He is truly causing you harm.. then you need to protect yourself
<BernieRoehl> That's a good point, zee, but a slightly different one. If I decide a submissive needs to get over her fear of needle play, I might well work with her on that.
<^^blush^^> personally i feel that needles ARE causing harm... but thats beside the point *grin*
<`zee{LQ}> it is our responsibility to let our Ones know we are having trouble..if we don't we don't have any right to call foul
<``slutkat`> depends what the fear is based on Bernie
<`vixie> but what if she doesn't see your point Bernie in getting over her phobia?
<`vixie> i have a few that i dont' want to touch with a 10' pole, and i don't know if i could handle someone telling me i have to
<^^blush^^> exactly vixie
<BernieRoehl> It's not something I would just spring unexpectedly. There'd be some discussion first
<lady`hawke> what if at the end tho she chose not to try it
<Kilted_One> I think that was the very point that LT was making a while ago about ramping up to something
<BernieRoehl> And it would be something I would work with her on, because she feel she would benefit from overcoming that fer
<kathryn_ehbc> Ok core seems to be trust here.. lets try this on for size.. in negotiationg
<lady`hawke> would you consider that giving up control?
<^^blush^^> so there are NO hard limits that a submissive can trust will not be pushed???
<BernieRoehl> (fear)
* `zee{LQ} knows her Master is working slowly on her fear of the ball gag..in fact He has to stop this one from wanting to go further
<kathryn_ehbc> a sub or domme says i have a hard limit .. i will not go there
<kathryn_ehbc> but one or the other still tries to push the sub past that point
<`vixie> wouldn't that negate hard limits Bernie?
<lady`hawke> a ball gag is a bit different from a needle piercing the skin tho
<kathryn_ehbc> is this a violation of trust or not ?
<`zee{LQ}> of course not blush.. but knowing your hard limits are the Doms before a relationship is established helps that
<BernieRoehl> Not at all -- if the sub doesn't want to work on that fear, she's under no obligation to
<Kilted_One> limits today maybe desires of tomorrow??
<``slutkat`> i dont think we can underestimate anybody's phobia no matter what it might be...
<^^blush^^> yes.. but that doesn't appear to be what some are saying here zee
<`zee{LQ}> lady`hawke.. to me.. fears are all relative.. to you it is small compared to needle play.. to me it is the reverse
<Leathersmith> yesssssss KO
<spiritsong> not really lady`hawke a fear is just as real to the person experiencing it
<BernieRoehl> As someone with a couple of phobias myself, slutkat, I tend to agree. But I also know that if I needed to overcome a phobia, I might turn to someone else for help.
* canplay thinks *choices* and *control* are not one in the same
<``slutkat`> is it worth hours of psychiatric counselling to overcome something to that you can go ahead in a D/s relationship with playing the way a Dom wishes to?
<`vixie> bingo canplay
<lady`hawke> i am not putting down the fear of a ball gag, i am saying perhaps that a needle thru the breast is a potentially harmfull thing with infection etc
<kathryn_ehbc> and in that case would that person likely be a qualified professional and not a Dom/me ?
<`shado> i think if you have chosen to give control to another then one had best be prepared for the consequences of that.......there had better be the trust that the person will keep you safe otherwise there if no power exchange
<Jaz^> Indeed KO, yet discussion I feel must take place to explore a limit and to perhaps make it a desire for tomorrow
<^^blush^^> exactly lady`hawke
<LrdThomas> this is what i think about control...i spell out to sweetone in advance how i am going to lead my life and what life with me will mean...she chooses to accept or reject but i am not negotiating...she has expressed boundaries and limits, limits being her state of mind currently regarding various aspects of bdsm. When i feel she is ready, those limits will be moved and she accepts in advance i will err from time to time...
* |Karen would prefer a qualified professional to a Dom
<kathryn_ehbc> i agree karen
<LrdThomas> but she knows it not motivated by malfeasance. So i ask you this...she has control to leave, but what other control do you think she has?
<^^blush^^> and she may not have the right to have limits that she NEVER wants pushed.. EVER LT???
<lady`hawke> no, there are Doms who ask their submissive to let them pierce the nipples temp
<kathryn_ehbc> good point blush
* Kilted_One hopes she retains bladder control LT;)
<kathryn_ehbc> if they push then once again are then not violating the trust ?
<``slutkat`> there's always catheters KO
<^^blush^^> i think they are kathryn
<`shado> how is pushing violating a trust?
<kathryn_ehbc> this is what i cant seem to get my hands around
<kathryn_ehbc> catheters ?oh my :)
<`zee{LQ}> pushing is not violating trust.. is helping both to grow and learn
<^^blush^^> that all depends
<lady`hawke> what is the point of having things safe, sane and consentual if the Dom does not plan on honoring the consentual part
<`vixie> so then there is no line? it sits in the sand as to where it goes from push to a hard 'no'?
<kathryn_ehbc> if someone says right at the start i have a hard limit i do not want to go therer ever
<^^blush^^> whether or not it is something that one WANTS pushed
<Jaz^> good point zee
* canplay thinks Lord Thomas is in control taking to sweetones thoughts into account
<kathryn_ehbc> and a domme continues to push that knowing my position then to me that is violating trust
<kathryn_ehbc> imho
<`shado> then you do not trust the Dom/me kathryn_ehbc..imho
<^^blush^^> agreed kathryn
* `zee{LQ} has said that children and dead things are this one limits and her Master agrees as well
* Kilted_One thinks that if someone is thinking of entering a TPE relationship they MUST have total trust in their partner and there is no such thing as "hardlimits"....if there is there is no TPE
<|Karen> I disagree on that one kath....if I hear about a hard limit, I might be inclined to wander around the edges of that hard limit and see just how hard it is...
<lady`hawke> might i ask what TPE stands for please
<Kilted_One> Total Power Exchange
<`shado> Total Power Exchange
<`vixie> i agree with you on the TPE issue KO, but what about a submissive *not* in TPE?
<kathryn_ehbc> ok shado real time example .. no names i have had rl dom/mes try to get me to have sex with kids, animals and scat
<BernieRoehl> I think everything is subject to negotiation. However, if a Dom consistenly wants to push His submissive into directions she doesn't want to go, then they're a poor match for each other. The submissive always has the right to leave the relationship (leaving TPE aside for the moment).
<LrdThomas> thank you canplay...it would be irresponsible to not understand what is going on in sweetone's head...but that doesn't give her control and whether anyone other than her understands that is irrelevant.
<kathryn_ehbc> no way in hell am i going there ever
* |Karen smiles 'I'd love to help Bernie past his thing with needles, after all'
<LrdThomas> tpe= total pain experience <smirk>
* BernieRoehl smiles at Karen
<^^blush^^> lol
<`shado> agreed LT :)
<kathryn_ehbc> so yes i sure dont have trust in those particular dommes and never will
* BernieRoehl is unlikely to get over His needle phobia
<`shado> then kathryn_ehbc...you should not be with them....imho
<``slutkat`> this is all sounding very harsh.. that the Dom PUSHES the sub places she has expressed she doesn't want to go... i'd tend to think more along the lines of the Dom gently guiding thru various small steps towards the submissive getting over some reluctance at certain types of play...
* |Karen winks at Bernie 'just teasing ya, sweet'
<kathryn_ehbc> and i sure didnt stay with them after that point :)
* BernieRoehl smiles at Karen and winks back
<lady`hawke> well, i am proof that limits can be moved, for i was totally against temp piercings, but had one done a month ago
<`zee{LQ}> that is the point kathryn_ehbc you stated it.. have had som Dom/mes.. you did not give your full surrender to them from the start... becasue you didn't feel that you could trust them totally
<`shado> exactly kathryn_ehbc
<lady`hawke> i chose to submit to the Dom who worked up to the limit slowly, not pushing but stretching it a bit at a time
* |Karen knows for herself just how easily a hard limit that one didn
<Kilted_One> vixie I think there are sublte diferences but they are subtle....if you submit to me you give me your trust.....do use it as I see fit.....it is a trust.....Topping is even different again...each a step away from TPE and more subtle the changes
<|Karen> err...didn't even know existed...can change to desire, under the right circumstances
<`vixie> i agree KO
<kathryn_ehbc> i guess in my opwn situation i make major distincitions betwween hard and soft limits
<canplay> this one just can't imagine what a Master must feel like hearing that His sub honestly thinks she is in control *shivers*
<|Karen> not all hard limits are pushable, and the Dom/me has to accept that, but some are, indeed.
<kathryn_ehbc> hard ones are never pushed unless " i " wish to change the limit to a soft limit
<lady`hawke> i have hard limits, kids, animals, now dead things are added to it, and blood
<kathryn_ehbc> notice " I "
<lady`hawke> those i dont think i would ever change
* `zee{LQ} smiles to lady`hawke and the dead things
<lady`hawke> not for anyone
<|Karen> I just don't think it's that black and white in an emotional relationship, kathryn
<kathryn_ehbc> nor i ladyhawke :)
<|Karen> for me, anyway
<lady`hawke> and if the Dom thinks that i am not submitting because of those then i guess he is not the Dom for me
<lady`hawke> there are some things which i could not do for anyone
<kathryn_ehbc> lots of shades of grey and constantly changing but some things imho should not change :)
<LrdThomas> canplay, she wouldn't be my sub if she truly believed that. :)
<`zee{LQ}> never say never... if Master truly pushed me i would break a deep limit.. though my moral psyche would be damaged.. and Master says i am too valueable a possession to risk damaging
* canplay smiles to Lord Thomas
<`shado> then kathryn_ehbc...you are in control not the Dom/me...imo
<|Karen> nor do I think, just to connect to the topic, that the concept of who is really in control is black and white either...
<`vixie> very true Karen
<kathryn_ehbc> yupper there i would be :)
<|Karen> it shifts constantly....there's an ebb and flow in a growing, healthy relationship
<Kilted_One> I dont thinks canplay would be anyones submissive for very long if that were the case LT
<dalian> but isn't the subin control initially at the beginning...the communication of limits...expectations etc?
<kathryn_ehbc> i would think so
<SirLancelot`> I think the control is shared
<`vixie> ahhh, but dalian the Dom/me has the same communication and the same control over offering His/Her limits
<lady`hawke> yes, exaxtly what i was going to say
<kathryn_ehbc> on the othrer hand Dom/mes may not want to get into some of the things that subs want to either
<kathryn_ehbc> it can be a mutual thing
<LrdThomas> <Sweetone> how does communication = control?
<Jaz^> I think there is some confusion over being pushed towards a limit and be led towards a limit. Being pushed is from a negative point of view while being led means discussion has happened and not coersion. Information has been gathered and shared.
<Leathersmith> could it be said if you are not both in control, you scene/relationship is out of control, that control is a shared resposibility (at least at the outset of a D/s relationship)
<|Karen> I kinda like that, Leathersmith...interesting perspective
<kathryn_ehbc> ok Jaz but if the sub still vehemmently does not want to go there even after communication, discussoion, information
<kathryn_ehbc> are you still going to push/lead ?
<lady`hawke> i think that the discussion takes place before a scene, once i am in a scene i give total control to the Dom, trusting him to honor the limits which we both discussed before hand
<`vixie> good point Leathersmith
<SirLancelot`> that's what I was saying Leathersmith
Session Close: Sun May 07 21:42:09 2000
Lost about a minute of the discussion when my connection got dropped
Session Start: Sun May 07 21:42:57 2000
<BernieR> (connection got dropped)
<^trufriend> but that is where trust, communication and understanding of limits should be utmost
* Kilted_One thinks that in a new scening couple it is even more important that the Dom/me be in control of the situation.....there is a right way and a wrong way..the right was requires prior communication....once done and the scene is active, there is no need for two to be in control
* |Karen smiles at LT 'I still want ya to post that to EhBC, LT...please?'
<kathryn_ehbc> :)
Session Close: Sun May 07 21:43:49 2000
Lost another 30 seconds or so
Session Start: Sun May 07 21:44:09 2000
<`shado> getting a lil too Dom there KO :)
<Kilted_One> sorry bout that Bernie
<kathryn_ehbc> lol
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> Got the wrong one :-)
<lady`hawke> lol
* `vixie spies the boot mark on Bernie's tush
<dalian> i agree LT, however initially in the earlier stages of the relationship...I believe a sub still has some control by delivering limits...if there are no hard limits or perhaps safewords...the exchange of power becomes deeper and thereby giving complete control over to the Dom
<`zee{LQ}> i do not wish control.. in sharing of dreams, fears and thoughts, the good Dom/Master will know when to lead His one and begin that journey
* BernieRoehl dusts off the seat of His pants
<kathryn_ehbc> :)
<ryvven> i agreee with zee
* Kilted_One puts away his boots
<dalian> i don't think i was really able to articulate what i meant there....hope the point got across anyways
<`zee{LQ}> dalian.. you are right.. limits are a badly used word for areas that you may change your mind given the right One and right time
<dalian> true
<lady`hawke> but who is the good Dom/Master for each is not always known, and that is why limits are so important
<kathryn_ehbc> good point ladyhawke
<`shado> no lady`hawke....that's why communication is important
<lady`hawke> and if that means not giving a Dom total control when just entering into a relationship... well, its just good common sense to do so
<LrdThomas> dalian, until the submissive is collared she can negotiate all she wants, but i will state again...doms i respect don't negotiate, they tell the sub before collaring how life is going to be. She can natter to her hearts content and he will be patient in explanation, but once that collar is on, control is the doms.
<`zee{LQ}> limits should diminish and the relationship stretches.. and accepting a collar should be at the end of that not at the beginning
* `zee{LQ} nods and smiles to LrdThomas Sir
<Leathersmith> I agree with that LT
<`shado> exactly zee
<Leathersmith> she should not accept the collar if she is not in for the ride
<dalian> i agree LT, once collared...the sub has given the total control to another
<lady`hawke> yes, i agree also
<|Karen> natter?
<lady`hawke> once the collar is on, then there should be no need for limits
<cuffedcdn> both parties need to be "in for the ride", the long haul as it were Leathersmith
<^^blush^^> so collar is an automatic total power exchange.. in ALL cases then?
<|Karen> that's somewhat respectful of a sub's communication.
<Kilted_One> natter to talk profusly
<Jaz^> Good point Leathersmith
<`vixie> good question blush
<``slutkat`> ball gags can werk fer that KO
<kathryn_ehbc> lol
<cuffedcdn> power or control cannot be given or taken without equal committment
<LrdThomas> blush, i don't speak for all cases, just for myself. This is my niche, everyone finds their own.
<Leathersmith> but it is crucial tha the Dom tell it straight and be real - up front - so the subbie can make an educated decision
<|Karen> err....somewhat _dis_respectful
<Donald_{nat}> I don't think the collar equals total power exchange, no room for changes in the future...at least in my own situation
<kathryn_ehbc> true but that kind of cokmmitment and trust will take time
<kathryn_ehbc> sometimes a lot of time
<ryvven> I think that is very fair LS
<``slutkat`> the collar is not just the submissive giving up of herself.. its also the Dominant taking responsibility for her...she becomes very precious to Him...
<`zee{LQ}> blush.. i guess that is my feeling on being collared.. a serious committment of total surrender.. at least a collar of ownership is
<kathryn_ehbc> and tell everthing.. very detailed... otherwise you may lead the subbie down the garden path so to speak
<^^blush^^> well there are areas of my life that i will never give up total control with
<lady`hawke> now lets be realistic tho, how many phoney Doms are there out there who think that the collar is just a way to bag a quick bed warmer
<^^blush^^> and that is understood before i get into serious relationships.
<^^blush^^> lol.. a million and one lady`hawke
<kathryn_ehbc> a lot ladyhawke.. lol
<`zee{LQ}> as it for the sub to be real... u-front and honest so the Dom can make an informed decision as well Leathersmith Sir
<``slutkat`> those phonies get a rude awakening
<lady`hawke> they know all the right words, until that collar is on
<lady`hawke> then suddenly they turn into someone straight out of lovecraft
<LrdThomas> probably the same percentage as bedroom bullies in the nilla world
* Kilted_One thinks that we have had the discussion on velco ko_lars before
<Leathersmith> yes zee agreed
<lady`hawke> lol
<kathryn_ehbc> true Kilteed one :)
* `zee{LQ} smiles remembering one Dom joking about bringing e-mail with Him from His sub while they were courting.. ' i love the butt plug' as she doesn't really love it!! lol
* Kilted_One take is that a ko_lar is a TPE relationship....at least in my eyes, she is my slave not submissive...my slave
<dalian> i agree totally KO
* ``slutkat` nods
* Leathersmith likes that view KO
* `zee{LQ} nods in agreement with Kilted_One Sir
<lady`hawke> but would you not want your slave in the best condition possible both physically and mentally KO
<kathryn_ehbc> but by that time you both have earned the collar KO
<lady`hawke> and would not keeping her initial limits in mind and being aware of how she feels be part of keeping her that way?
<Kilted_One> of course lady`hawke, why wold I damage valuable property....true slaves are hard to come by
<kathryn_ehbc> and emotionlly and spiritually its not just the physcical well being that is important
<kathryn_ehbc> its the total person
<Leathersmith> but within the confines of SSC even slaves are entitled to limits
<ryvven> perhaps then a difference sub=some control over limits, slave=reliquishing of all control
<lady`hawke> okay, SSC?
<kathryn_ehbc> " all
<kathryn_ehbc> " ?
<LrdThomas> sweetone is my slave/sub/wench/lover/partner/angel/precious treasure/ ... all of which are easier to say than "partner of equality in a power exchange relationship" <g>
<Kilted_One> Safe Sane and Consensual
<dalian> i don't believe that a slave has limits...otherwise she would not be a slave in my eyes
<lady`hawke> thanks KO
<lady`hawke> i think for me a slave has no limits, as she has given up all rights and body to her Master
<Kilted_One> agreed LT, she is a chosen companion
* `zee{LQ} has to kill a spider!
<lady`hawke> a submissive on the other hand i think may not go so far in giving up herself, in that she has those limits
<Leathersmith> not even if your idea of fun play puts her at serious health risk?
<kathryn_ehbc> then in that theme once the slave consents to one she consents to all future situations regardless of what they may be ?
<Leathersmith> going back to elec play and pacemaker discussion of earlier?
<kathryn_ehbc> without question or limits of " any " kind ?
* LrdThomas thinks this bantering around of terms has no meaning cept within the dynamic of the partnership
<ryvven> that is one of the risks and temptations of slavedom
<``slutkat`> no Dom is going to risk killing his sub just to play with electricity when he knows it can harm her...
<Leathersmith> but that elec play is not safe, ergo is not SSC.
<Kilted_One> Leathersmith would you take your precious car through barbed wire?
<``slutkat`> cuz he'll soon become Bubba's slave in the pen...
<kathryn_ehbc> :)
<Leathersmith> trust me, a presious subbie is to be kept well fo next days adventures
<``slutkat`> ;-)
* cuffedcdn notices the time on the clock
<cuffedcdn> hi luvs
<kathryn_ehbc> well i think we have hads a pretty good discussion... a lot of good points raised :)
<`zee{LQ}> to give up total control to a One is a scary at first then as free feeling as you can possibly feel.. for both sides
<kathryn_ehbc> just about time to wrap it up me thinks :)
* LrdThomas thinks the bottom line is this...if the sub thinks she has control, the dom doesn't!!! <g>
<kathryn_ehbc> lol
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for moderating, kathryn!
* `zee{LQ} smiles and nods to LrdThomas Sir
<Kilted_One> I would like to state that if anyone is going to accept a ko_lar then they had better trust the individual that they are about to call Master.....that is trust him with their life....he/she better have done their homework.
* canplay laffs at Lord Thomas and agrees
<`vixie> excelent point KO
<kathryn_ehbc> was good Bernie i will like to do this more often :)
<Kilted_One> thanks for the moderation kathryn_ehbc
<kathryn_ehbc> good discussion thanl you one and all !!!!
<BernieRoehl> Great, I'll email kathryn
<dalian> well done kath!
<`zee{LQ}> thank you kathryn_ehbc
<kathryn_ehbc> k sounds good bernie :)
<lady`hawke> thanks kathryn_ehbc, it was a good one :}
<LrdThomas> thanks for the discussion everyone, good nite...sweetone has the kb. :)
<kathryn_ehbc> great !!!