May 2 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> Welcome to our weekly discussion in BDSM-KW

<`abi> Tonight's topic is " BDSM: What's Love Got to Do With It?". We will be logging this discussion for posting to the ehbc website. If you wish your nick to be changed to "Guest" on the log before it is posted, please message me.

<`abi> We only have two rules during discussion time...please refrain from Walton style hi-byes and please make an attempt to stay on topic.

<`abi> Okay....obviously love is not a component in all BDSM relationships....

<`abi> lets start by discussing how love changes the dynamics of a BDSM relationshio

<`abi> or does it?

<trufriend> not all bdsm relationships have sex involved in them, but i do feel there is a certain degree of love in all relationships

<Karenkit> what do you mean, 'abi?

<Karenkit> by it changing the dynamics?

<`abi> if love evolves in a BDSM relationship does it change it?

<victoria_angel> abi, i read in alot of bdsm web sites, that ultimately a submissive/slave will love his/her master/ress

<trufriend> love in a relationship adds to the intimacy

<`abi> do you think that's always true va?

<Karenkit> well....I don't know really...I don't want a bdsm relationship that doesn't _already_ have love in it

<victoria_angel> i think that deep feelings are important - they lead to trust and warmth between partners either during play or not

<`abi> so for you the love must come first Karen?

<victoria_angel> but i want to know if it is the same as LOVE that leads to marriage?

<jalyn> i think having love brings a deeper trust level

* DarkLord has had scenes with people he doesn't love... in a scene party enviroment

<TheWolfe> now we get to the chicken & the egg debate

<trufriend> love, like trust...must be earned

<Karenkit> well...I have to have the feeling that love is potentially there...

<trufriend> it is something that develops

<`abi> yes we do TW....which comes first?

<TheWolfe> depends on the situation

<`abi> is it possible to have a satisfying BDSM relationship without love Karen?

<Karenkit> I'll scene with someone as part of the process of finding it...kinda like dating. But I won't make a committment to a collared relationship without love

<TheWolfe> depends on whether one enjoys club type play or private play

<Karenkit> I suppose it is....but not for me....anymore

<jalyn> play is play...but a continuous one on one would for me at least...revolve around love

<SirBear> I'm past the days of casual sex, and for me any form of play involves intimacy which I consider sex...

<victoria_angel> a long term relationship should have some form or love or atleast passion

<`abi> is passion possible without love va?

* jalyn agress with SirBear

<victoria_angel> no passion (i feel) comes from love

<TheWolfe> one needs to "date" before falling in love, correct?

<DarkLord> passion is very possible without love

<trufriend> passion without love is mechanical

<jalyn> passion without love is lust

<victoria_angel> you can have passionate SEX DL, you can also feel passion when you are in love

<TheWolfe> also there is a differenve between love & being in love

<`abi> and therefore TW?....D/s without love is the dating part?

<trufriend> that's not a relationship, it's an agreement

<TheWolfe> for some, yes

<`abi> what's the difference TW...and how does each manifest itself in a D/s relationship?

<DarkLord> passion is a regular thing in love, but is quite possible outside of it as well...

<TheWolfe> there is no definitive answer

<DarkLord> passion doesn't have to be sex either

<TheWolfe> lol...

<`abi> but does sex have to be passion DL?

<TheWolfe> I don't want to Dominate the discussion *smile*

<DarkLord> no... it doesn't abi.

<Kirspin> When a Dom gives Pain to a sub, there doesn t have to be love after,maybe cuddling but not love as such

<DarkLord> but it doesn't have to be love either

<`abi> well then...who agrees with vs being in they manifest themselves differently in a D/s relationship?

<ladyWild`> true emotion does add to the intensity however

<Karenkit> well, there are different kinds of love....

<`abi> which kind of love have a place in a D/s relationship Karen?

<Karenkit> for me...the big One.

* Karenkit knows that she doesn't speak for everyone

<`abi> is love necessary in order to maintain a long term BDSM relationship?

<jalyn> i think so...for me it must

<Karenkit> depends on what you mean by 'long term' :)

<SirBear> for me it is abi, but the stress here is "for me"

<Karenkit> committed, living in the same house, building a life together...yes, love is vital

<trufriend> my aim is for a lasting, loving relationship....complete with passion, sex, bdsm...but that is something to work towards, not jump into

<victoria_angel> i feel it is for long term/permanent

<`abi> lol would you define longterm?

<Karenkit> that is how I define long term....but there are many options

<Karenkit> like long term could be 'married to others but see each other every week for a kinky encounter for 20 years'

<`abi> good point it possible to be in love with one person and maintain a longterm BDSM relationship with another?

<trufriend> i was hoping my marriage was going to be in longer than the 14 years it was.....but there was little love in it...only the love we shared for our son

* Karenkit nods 'for some...not for me'

* Karenkit wants to build a life with someone who Dominates her

<`abi> Is it more difficult for a Dom who is in love with his submissive?....

<victoria_angel> 5is in such a relationship and well, it takes alot of work and isn't always pleasant

<cyberbrat_> i've heard it is, abi. but i dunno.

<victoria_angel> i think it is a great quality of a DOM/MME who has sound emotions

<`abi> what do you wonder about brat?

<cyberbrat_> that question is too open for me, abi. lol

<Kirspin> I think a lot of us our in the same boat, married to people and there is no love at all

<`abi> okay reverse it brat

<SirBear> I don't want a Dom/sub relationship if I'm not in love

<`abi> is it easier for a submissive to serve a Master with whom she is in love?

<cyberbrat_> dunno that either.

* Karenkit nods 'I've heard that theory...I don't see why it would be. If a Dom loved his sub, he'd know that being strict with her, or giving her exactly what she wants/ why would doing that be hard for him if it satisfys him to?'

<trufriend> i think it is abi

<`abi> why tru?

<jalyn> it is the only way i could serve a Master, if i was in a relationship geared to sustaining the bdsm element

<Karenkit> why SirBear?

<`abi> any Doms present have an answer to Karen's question?....

<SirBear> why what?

<trufriend> coming from a retail background, i will sell it if i like it.......the same holds true in a relationship, if i love my partner, i will do more for HIm

<Kirspin> Speaking as a Dom who is still learning, I guess we are human too and maybe not all that Dom all the time

<`abi> why would it be more difficult for a Dom to administer punishment or discipline to a sub with whom he is in love?

<victoria_angel> i agree with tru - love makes alot of things possible

<`abi> but does it make anything more difficult va?

* trufriend sets her rose-tinted glasses on the table beside her

<victoria_angel> abi, what about the fear of abuse?

<`abi> fear on whose part va?

<trufriend> possibly because they then "fear" hurting their partner...and not in a good way?

<victoria_angel> what about when administering pain (lets say) feels then like abuse

<keilei{Bkr}t> i think it all depends on what type of a bdsm relationship your talking about... if your just sensation playing.. then you don't need the love... but if your talking about a D/s relationship, then you have to have a degree of love..

<`abi> love must be present in order to submit keilei?

<victoria_angel> fear that the Dom administers what both pleases himself and the sub, and as a consentual act, then due to love feels abusive - the fear of hurting (because you are in love)

<Karenkit> if a couple is in love...and a painplay session starts to feel like abuse to one of them....then they talk about it til they figure it out....together.

<keilei{Bkr}t> i think that a degree of love must be present in order to submit.. yes..

<trufriend> but there's the difference there keilei{Bkr}t, play vs. real (love)

<trufriend> fun vs. serious

<trufriend> it's discovering a blend of the two

* SirBear agrees with Karenkit

<`abi> what if they aren't in love Karen?

<trufriend> abi, what IS love to you?

* DarkLord has to run... see you all in a week or so

<`abi> is there more likely to be negotiation in D/s relationship without love as a safety net?

* `abi smiles at tru...can't discuss and moderate hun :)

<Karenkit> well, if they want the relationship to continue...regardless of whether they are in love...they should still talk about it.

<`abi> but it's a good question tru? do we define love in a relationship?

<Karenkit> but if it's just a fun thing and a painplay session starts to feel like abuse....then one should walk

<victoria_angel> talking is very important - it has to happen

<`abi> is love a safety net?

<victoria_angel> talking should be the safety net, not love

<trufriend> we would like it to be some sort of safety net abi.....a security in a relationship

<`abi> so, in the absense of love in a D/s relationship...what is the security?...or is there any?

* Karenkit thinks love isn't a safety net....'it's Glue'

<trufriend> if we love someone, then we would hope that the relationship wouldn't just end suddenly....there is more of a committment

<`abi> does love = commitment?

<jalyn> that doesnt always happen either

<Karenkit> in the absense of love....self-knowledge and self-confidence is the security

<Karenkit> actually that's true regardless of love present or not

<`abi> is it possible to have commitment without love?

<trufriend> sometimes it does...the two tend to go hand in hand

<trufriend> in a business relationship maybe abi

<jalyn> or friendship

<trufriend> you don't have to love your partner in a business sure helps to like 'em though

<victoria_angel> playing with a non-marital partner is making a commitment or relationship based on an agreement or contract about play - you don't need love to start that type of relationship

<Karenkit> `abi these are great questions but I think it boils down to 'depends on the people involved' :)

<victoria_angel> yes, tru, attraction is important

<trufriend> even a friendship has a certain degree of love though jalyn

<keilei{Bkr}t> its possible to have a commitment without "being in love"... but when sharing something so intimate, i would think that there would be a type of love involved.

<`abi> it always does Karen...I think we're trying to discover what things we hold as common and what is individual

* Karenkit grins 'is there common ground? I'm starting to wonder....I've come across so much diversity that I wonder..'

<isweetpea> i agree keilei{Bkr}t, think loving somone is very diffrent than being in love

<`abi> how is it different sweetpea?

<TheWolfe> I think the common ground may be that we want a compatible partner wiyhin s/m

<jainey> loving someone takes work and commitment, being in love is just a part of loving someone

<Kirspin> I agree Wolfe

<victoria_angel> i agree with TheWolfe

<trufriend> love: a deep and tender feeling of affection for, an attachment/devotion to a person or persons

<trufriend> so, where does that fit into a bdsm relationship?

<isweetpea> diffrent kind of feeling for me, i can have a lot of intense feelings and care very deeply, and not be in love with that person

<^Lord^Jay^> love and play do not necessarioy go hand in hand

<TheWolfe> with en & I, there was synchronicity, then love developed

<trufriend> #2-love: a strong, usually passionate affection of one person for another

<`abi> what level of intensity do you require in a BDSM relationship sweetpea

<isweetpea> i am not really sure how to define that abi

<`abi> so compatability comes follows TW?

<^Lord^Jay^> i believe attraction comes first

<`abi> do you look for the potential to love when you look for a BDSM partner sweetpea?

<TheWolfe> as in most relationships, you find that you have common interests then the relationships builds or declines from there

<TheWolfe> physical or psychological LordJay?

* jainey thinks that you can have an intense bdsm experience with someone you are not 'in love' with, but when the relationship doesn't develop beyond the 'lifestyle', the rest tends to pitter away over time

<isweetpea> i think its diffrent for me, i am married to someone outside of bdsm, its more fufilling a need that isnt met in my marriage

<trufriend> i agree TheWolfe

<^Lord^Jay^> well i suspect it is physical at first

<^Lord^Jay^> if you dont feel attracted then how can you go ahead with someone

<trufriend> first impressions start the 'process'

* Karenkit agrees with jainey

<TheWolfe> we met on irc

<Karenkit> that has happened to me...

<`abi> What advice do we give to people who are "looking for love" in the BDSM community?

<trufriend> but i don't agree that those first impressions have to be physical

<^Lord^Jay^> true but meeting on the net you were attracted to each other in text and interests i bet

<trufriend> to be patient!

<jenna{Victorya}> i could not give fully of myself if i were not completely in love with share and trust Her i do could come with nothing other then love

<TheWolfe> I agree trufriend

<SirBear> hang in there

* Karenkit laughs 'I want to hear the advice! I could use it'

<keilei{Bkr}t> why would love be different in the bdsm community than it is in the vanilla community

<`abi> is it the same keilei?

<keilei{Bkr}t> of course...

<^Lord^Jay^> in the bdsm community love is much deeper than in a vanilla relationship

<keilei{Bkr}t> in a good vanilla relationship.. the deep commited love is there...

<`abi> interesting point we give ourselves more fully in a relationship where there is love..or do we give more freely without the entanglements of love?

<opal```> that has been your experience Lord Jay?

<victoria_angel> my first experience Karen, was to be SCARED, and develop a trusting relationship from online chat ... when i met in rl, the trust turned into comfort and a loving feeling - the desire to please

<^Lord^Jay^> yes it has very much so opal

<jainey> i think that is too general a statement LordJay...there are many types of love, and they can be truly deep and truly intense amongst many situations

<`abi> does IRC ever create a false sense of intimacy that can be mistaken for love?

<trufriend> i have observed in the bdsm community more than in the vanilla world, a combining of feelings rather than working too hard on one then another.....more "harmony" in oneself

<victoria_angel> i am sure it does abi...very sure

<opal```> lots of things can create a false sense of intimacy

<victoria_angel> there are many DARK people online

<`abi> what else does opal?

* Karenkit nods 'I've been there Victoria, but it faded...wasn't IRC 'though...another online forum'

<SirBear> when you say IRC abi, are your referring to the stuff in the open channel, or in private chats?

<trufriend> and many DARK people OFFline too victoria_angel

<opal```> working closely together on a project..or a common intense interest

<`abi> either SirBear...but I guess I was thinking about the private relationships that people develop on IRC

<TheWolfe> whatever the medium, there are honest people & dihonest ones

<trufriend> that was one of the many arguments in my marriage that my husband tried to use against me

<victoria_angel> yes, but i think that the ability of people to hide behind a keyboard and create a false sense of security and then prey happens more than we know about

<opal```> but in the long term..that intimacy doesn't transfer and you are left unfilled

<trufriend> "Do you know how dangerous it is to meet people online?!"

<`abi> does the physical and/or mental intensity of BDSM ever create the illusion of love where it doesn't exist?

<SirBear> I see, well I suppose one can hide behind IRC, but that is true about any on-line relationship that doesn't carry over to real-life

<`abi> I wonder if at least sometimes that is unintentional va

<opal```> i think it creates the illusion of trust

<keilei{Bkr}t> is it more dangerous to meet ppl from online than to meet people in a bar?

<trufriend> that question abi, goes back to what we were talking about earlier...the level of trust and honesty

<jainey> as dangerous as picking up someone in a bar who you've chatted with for twenty minutes...

<trufriend> why lie online, if you are ever serious of actually meeting anybody?!

<victoria_angel> it might be keilei, but for those i've met in rl, i have used my GUT feelings and set up precautions

<`abi> partially tru.... but I'm asking about an honest illusion of in, it feels like love because it's so intense, but is it really love?

* ^Lord^Jay^ nods bug time to trufriend

<jainey> people create facades in all aspects of their is the same at home as they are at works, or with certain friends, or with their lover....

<SirBear> well, trying not to get off topic, but isn't that where our munches come in? Sort of a bridge between cyber and a bar

<victoria_angel> tru, there are people out there who do lie - to lure

<opal```> we believe if we want to doesn't matter if it is online or r/l

<jalyn> but that shows through eventually

<victoria_angel> SirBear, yes, and also the networking by asking someone else online that you trust already, not just a play partner

* SirBear nods at jenna{Victorya}

<^Lord^Jay^> well i think in a bdsm relationship especially when you go over the checklist you really discuss many taboo things that it speeds your process and draws you closer much faster

<trufriend> people do that without being online though victoria_angel

<trufriend> i just question why??

<victoria_angel> yes, but alot of lonely people go online to find that 'right someone' and then when they think they do, the rl meeting is easier

<`abi> conversely, does IRC help to break down some barriers to the communication that leads to love?

<jainey> you can know someone intimately for years and they could be lying to could be married to them....everything in life is a risk, but if you don't risk you will never experience the good aspects either

<Karenkit> Not for me...any online contact just makes it so much worse for me

<`abi> how so Karen?

<Karenkit> I feel incomplete when the relationship is online...that there is something missing

<trufriend> "What's love got to do with it?" Everything!!

<victoria_angel> rl has to have a level of risk jainey

<`abi> what do you think is missing?

<opal```> i once scored very high on someones "checklist" Lord Jay...unfortunately that individual had no interest in knowing me beyond the checklistgbeyond what was on the check

<Karenkit> I have fallen in love online...but it wasn't really....ummm...real.

<opal```> sorry..i was

<TheWolfe> are we talking about conversation on line or "cyber-play"?

<^Lord^Jay^> well that was the individuals fault i would never look at a subie in only that way...opal

<Karenkit> I don't know how else to say lasted for a long time, got in the way of some real love that was developing with a local person but....ultimately unfulfilling.

<`abi> well TW, I don't think love enters into cyberplay...but I think more than one person has fallen in love or thought they have in the course of online conversations

<jainey> i think 'online' gives the unique experience of 'really' forcing people to talk to each other...i mean traditionally what do people do when they date?...they go to the show...(no talking)...they eat dinner (not alot of talking)...they don't spend quality time just communicating

<trufriend> i think we are getting a little sidetracked here.....back to love in a bdsm relationship....does it have a place? i certainly think so

<Kirspin> I think a lot of the submissives have been alone for too long, when they get a chance to meet a Dom in real life, they back off and are scared as all hell

<`abi> not sidetracked tru.....communication and love are pretty closely related

<^Lord^Jay^> yes me too very much so

<Karenkit> I couldn't see him for all that he was soon enough not to be hurt...because I didn't have enough direct contact...the kind of stuff you pick up unconciously in face to face situations

<jalyn> with love comes the intense intimacy of exploration

<TheWolfe> it does for some & it doesn't for others

<jalyn> checklist or none at all

<trufriend> isn't that what you're asking though abi? do they really go hand in hand and if so, why?

<^Lord^Jay^> i would never continue with a relationship if i could not love the partner

* jainey thinks it is the same as vanilla...if it's just good sex....that won't sustain the relationship

<TheWolfe> intensity can be increased by loving your can explore different areas than if you were not in love, but...

* jenna{Victorya} could never been in such a deep relationship if it were not in her heart

<victoria_angel> it has to be GIVE, TAKE and GROWTH

<trufriend> Kirspin, there are also very many Dom/mes who have been alone for a long time.....let's not discriminate

<`abi> that's part of what I'm asking, yes tru...but I'm also asking about all the ways that love or the lack of it impacts on our BDSM experience

<trufriend> we're not so helpless

<jalyn> i would need love in order to closely feel my serve, my submission completely

* SirBear it shouldn't hurt though jainey (no pun intended)

<trufriend> or pathetic

<TheWolfe> intiensity can also be increased with someone you do not is's not the same's not "shared" in the same way as a "love" D/s relationship

<Kirspin> Granted

<TheWolfe> both types of intensites are valid though

<`abi> so love creates one kind of intensity....the absence of love creates opportunity for other kinds of intensity TW>

* cyberbrat_ wonders how long is "too long" to be alone

<jainey> but love is not all happiness and's struggling and testing and celebrating the ups and supporting through the down

<TheWolfe> yes, i think so

<TheWolfe> (en here now)

<TheWolfe> and wanting one or the other is no better or worse

<`abi> true certainly is

<jalyn> it is an individual decision

<jainey> i agree jalyn

<TheWolfe> absolutely

<`abi> ...and so TW we come back as always to communicating our expectations...

<TheWolfe> we have different needs throughout our lives and as individuals

<TheWolfe> definately...if one partner wants love, they must convey know if their goals are the same

<trufriend> brat, i've been alone all my life

<trufriend> i may not like it, but i've learned to live with it

<TheWolfe> of course emotions come up where you didn't they would, so you share that with the other and deal with it before it hurts too much

<`abi> does anyone have any specific questions about love and BDSM that we haven't addressed?

<jainey> but it's important to figure it out for yourself first too....sometimes you only fool yourself into thinking you want or don't want something....

<Karenkit> yeah ` to find it?

<TheWolfe> as with anything, honesty with yourself is a good thing to start with ;)

<jainey> love finds you

<Karenkit> how do you find love in a community that seems, at times, to be filled with people who just want to play?

* jalyn thinks love always circles around her but misses the target :)

<^Lord^Jay^> find a pertner who is more interested in love than play

* `abi will try to get some signs printed for the next munch...."Lookin' for Love"....

* Karenkit laughs 'thank you `abi'

<TheWolfe> avoid the "just players" or...get to know them better...they may just want more than that, but don't openly say so within the community

<TheWolfe> Lord Jay, were You looking for a woman to all in love with

<TheWolfe> ?

<opal```> good luck Karen

-> *victoria_angel* Welcome to the channel...a discussion is in progress.

<trufriend> if you have them for KW abi...i'll get some for London! lol

<^Lord^Jay^> hmm tough question thewolfe

<DarkAngeI> Hello A/all

<^Lord^Jay^> i would not play with anyone i did not have some feelings for

*subbiedaisy* thanks abi..i am fine with anything i say being posted

<^Lord^Jay^> i will meet with a partner several times before i play with them]

<Wolf^en> well You said though that one should find someone who is more interested in love than play...

<Wolf^en> i guess i wonder if those are the people who use bdsm as a way to find love, rather than having a true real interest in bdsm itself

<`abi> thank you everyone for joining our discussion tonight....please feel free to continue chatting