May 2, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "D/s Fantasies vs D/s Realities". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Xeper> am i suposed to open the floor?
<Xeper> lol im the new guy....
<jewel`{F}> feel free Xeper
<Xeper> well i ll try to get the ball rolling
<jewel`{F}> what do you feel would be a fantasy over a reality?
<Xeper> i think that as far as fantasy goes
<Prathen> Even Bernie does not think this one is worth attending it seems
<Xeper> anything man has imagined has eventually been realized
<Xeper> and in the scope of a relationship
<Xeper> the same applies
<jewel`{F}> i think many that are new, have found D/s have many ideas or fantasies of what they are looking for
<Xeper> i mean this whole process has been about taking those fantasies and making them realities
<jewel`{F}> then there are the realities of how life acutally dictates the D/s
<pandora``> for me fantasy is where real life doesn't interfere with what i want to do - it's hard to have a D/s relationship when you have to say, sorry Sir, but i have to go to work now
<Prathen> Or when you can't even find someone else to be your partner
<jewel`{F}> very true pandora``
<Xeper> its intresting...and its definatly true that there is a secret space one creates with there ...partner... but is that space just fantasy?
<Xeper> it has substance
<jewel`{F}> i think it depends on the people Xeper
<Xeper> yes
<Xeper> but living fantasy has substance regardless
<jewel`{F}> for some it is something that is casual, only when they get together, or strictly for play parties
<jewel`{F}> for others the reality is more day to day
<Xeper> hmmm is that the topic then? when we say D's fantasy vs D's rreality
<jewel`{F}> having to get permission to go for coffee with friends, or to go shopping
<Xeper> there are to many ways to interprit the topic now....
<Xeper> lol
<pandora``> think back to when you were new to the scene, or when you didn't know that there was a scene, there was just your imagination of what you wanted out of life, did that have any bearing on reality?
<jewel`{F}> with all the information available, both real and fiction, i think there are those that feel anything D/s is fantasy
<`abi> it often occurs to me that we live the fantasies of other people
<Xeper> oh very insightful `abi)
<pandora``> true `abi, for those who haven't taken the steps to make their fantasies a reality
<Xeper> thats a very intresting thought
<Xeper> do you say that as a sub who has fantasy forced or as someon who lives out there fantasies knowing that they are shaped by the experiances of others fantasies??? `abi???
<`abi> I say that as a submissive who thinks that we live the fantasies that other people only imagine
<Xeper> heh neither still very true
<Xeper> but*
<jewel`{F}> how many submissives have come in to things thinking with the fanatasy of being someones sex slave, their play toy, then the reality jumpb in with the rules of what to wear everyday, how to do their hair, even for some what music they can listen to
<pandora``> a fantasy is only a fantasy until such time as it is lived, at which point it becomes a reality
<Prathen> I am not sure
<Prathen> I am new to this, and do not know many people myself
<Xeper> thats intristing jewel`{F} ...i can say ive seen that first hand but.. even that is dependant on the D i mean you can be very selfish or really go out of your way to heal with the power your given
<`abi> to heal?...who says we need to be healed?
<Xeper> i ...i need to be
<Xeper> thats why i do what i do
<Xeper> because the sacrifice..what they sacrifice shows me...assures me..that i am truly loved
<Xeper> but that is just me
<Xeper> i dont impose that on anyone
* Prathen nods
<pandora``> who is sacrificing what may i ask please Xeper?
<Prathen> I would love to be able to make someones fantasy come true
<`abi> I think perhaps it is a fantasy to think that BDSM heals anything
<Prathen> why is that abi?
<Xeper> hmmm thats an intresting question pandora`` and a very personal one...i would prefer to answer that in private afterword....ultimatly i can say that there is a sacrifice of controll and of comfort and of wellbeing in somecases
<jewel`{F}> for those that have been around in the community for awhile, how many have seen both Dominants and subs come in with the misconceptions
<pandora``> been there, got the t-shirt jewel`{F}! lol
<jewel`{F}> Dominants with the one that all subs serve all doms, and they are there for use
<Xeper> let me add that also there are sacrifices on both parts and that sacrifice ois the element that makes life beautiful and that makes BDSM healing
<`abi> because Prathen, the idea that someone else can 'fix' you is erroneous
<`abi> and since when did it require sacrifice?
<jewel`{F}> and how many subs have come in with the idea that they will be rescued, some dom will take control of them and fix their lives
<Xeper> heh
<Xeper> i can see you have been let down hard
<jewel`{F}> who has been let down hard Xeper?
<Xeper> is that the fantasy vs the realits
<Xeper> reality*** ...the topic changed to the subs fantasy vs reality...but i like this more
<jewel`{F}> i think there are fantasies on both ends of the spectrum
<Xeper> jewel`{F} the ones who hoped sombody would fix there life and found that that didnt happen were let down
<`abi> there is nothing wrong with fantasy ... problems arise when one cannot distinguish fantasy from reality
<jewel`{F}> very true abi
<Prathen> Who said they were fixing someone else
<Xeper> reality is on mst cases just a most things its not more then we see it as
<Prathen> Someone making me feel wanted, and cared about, would help 'fix' me alot
<jewel`{F}> Xeper you don't think the dominants that came in with the idea that submissive means easy, that any sub will be theirs for the taking aren't let down when it doesn't happen?
<Xeper> reality is a personalized interpritation of experiance
<jewel`{F}> both sides are in for an awakening
<Xeper> and fantasy is what we want to bring to our own personal interpritation
<pandora``> Xeper i am having a hard time in figuring out what you mean about reality being a blur
<pandora``> i would think that reality is pretty, well, real, and fantasy would be the blur
* `abi has pretty clear realities and pretty clear fantasies
<abitbent> :)
<Xeper> oh jewel im sorry ..i think my post came across as offensive...i ddint mean to make you feel defensive...just that i could see that youve been let down and so have i ...just acknowledging you
<jewel`{F}> the rules and expectations that my Master has of me are very real
<pandora``> ah, now `abi you and i differ there, my realities are very clear, but my fantasies go all over the place
* jewel`{F} smiles at Xeper
<Xeper> well i would say reality is a blur especially for a top
<`abi> oh do tell pandora`` ... inquiring minds want to know
<Xeper> no not a top but a hard cor dom
<jewel`{F}> i have not been let down, but have seen many subs that have had an awakening that they aren't going to find a white knight
* `abi thinks that a Top with a blurry sence of reality is dangerous
<Xeper> because if you shape your world
<Xeper> and you shape the world in the eyes of others
<Xeper> it starts to seem more blury
<pandora``> but i have a problem with fantasies `abi, i don't seem to have any because i just go out and live them, and then they cease to become fantasies
<Xeper> ...but i dont know if you can see that?
* jewel`{F} agrees with abi
* pandora`` wipes her brow and asks "what's a girl to do?"
<jewel`{F}> lol pandora``
* `abi laughs ... and she denies perfection
<abitbent> i think it's great when subtle fantasies become amazing experiences in r/l.. then become better fantasies..
<Prathen> your lucky pandora
<pandora``> i keep telling you, i'm not perfect, i'm insecure!!!!
<`abi> one does sometimes lead to another abitbent, it's true
<Prathen> Anything I ever think of is a fantasy
<Xeper> i prefer the black night imagery
<Prathen> and I have no way to make it reality
<pandora``> what is black knight imagery?
<Xeper> mur search there is a way
<Xeper> sombody posted that no sub can find her WHITE NIGHT
<abitbent> anything you've experienced in r/l and wasn't fulfilling so it ceased to be a fantasy?
<Xeper> so i said black night is a better image ...was a joke
<jewel`{F}> not that they can't find, just that it isn't going to be as easy as they had thought it was going to be
<Xeper> yes i feel that way about creating the perfect sub
<Xeper> its much more difficult than i expected
<jewel`{F}> creating?
<Xeper> yes
<Xeper> creating
<jewel`{F}> sounds like you want to take parts from a bunch of different subs
<Xeper> no
<Xeper> its training
<Xeper> conditioning
<Xeper> teaching
<abitbent> in your own image
<Prathen> brainwashing
<Xeper> yup
<Xeper> even brainwashing
<Xeper> no lies
<shareena> is perfection possible when dealing with imperfect people
<abitbent> a bit non consentual don't you think?
<Xeper> not true
<Xeper> i cant teach and train unless they want me to
<Xeper> and i honestly believe
<`abi> I'd say if you're trying to 'create' someone, then that is definitely a fantasy
<shareena> i don't think brainwashing is consensual
<Xeper> well its a word
<`abi> all good artists know that you don't 'create', you uncover what is already there and bring it to life
<Xeper> that is negatively conatatated
<Xeper> its the same thing
<Xeper> i didnt use the word brainwashing
<Xeper> lol
<abitbent> *shrugs*
<Xeper> but its true that drawing it out iss a better description
<`abi> <Xeper> even brainwashing
<Xeper> i was agreeing with Prathen
<shareena> and would you say that in return you can offer the perfect Dom to this perfect sub
<Xeper> because you can say brainwashing and not be far from the truth
<jewel`{F}> i know i don't feel "created" more "grown"
<Xeper> damn it
<Xeper> i dont like where this is going
<Xeper> I ask to revoke all mention of brainwshing
<Xeper> it was ment more as a skewed look at the process
<Xeper> is not as acurate as terms we are now using
<jewel`{F}> i have been engouraged to look with in myself, to become the best i can be, not only to meet Fyre's expectations of me, but for myself too
<Xeper> `abi...beforre you said somthing about a blury reality in a top is scary
<`abi> I believe I said it was dangerous Xeper
<Xeper> yes thats right
* jewel`{F} agrees with abi
<`abi> dangerous is not the same as scarey....I have an affection for scarey Tops
<Xeper> i want to tell you that it is that blury reality that makes me understanding and patient because i know people see things difrently
<Xeper> so you understand what i mean
<`abi> it still makes you dangerous in my books Xeper .... being responsible for someone else requires having a firm grasp on reality
<Xeper> not that i forget what im doing in the middle of some dangerous act
<`abi> your own and theirs
<Xeper> you cant have a firm grasp on reality if you cant see it
<`abi> precisely
<jewel`{F}> a top with a blurry reality may not see when a sub is in trouble
<Xeper> and if you cant see the blur
<Xeper> you cant see the real
<`abi> and if you can't see it ... then you're a danger
<Xeper> im am offended but i will respect your perspective
<`abi> thank you
<Xeper> i wish i could make you feel otherwise
<abitbent> i think the best thing about this group is often listening with an open mind... sometimes it seems the less i type the more i learn.
<Xeper> thats a funy thing to say while typing
<`abi> we like it when you type abitbent
<abitbent> :) oxymoron in typing almose
<abitbent> amost
<Xeper> almost
<Xeper> :)
<`abi> to give us an example of a fantasy that became a reality that led to a fantasy?
<abitbent> first thing that comes to mind is smothering.. or queening abi...
<abitbent> didn't know a thing about smothering.. didn't really appeal to me when mentioned... but after an experience.. HELLO!
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
* `abi smiles
<Xeper> shareena who did you adress that perfect top comment to?
<Xeper> its way up i just read it
<`abi> was the reality better than the fantasy abitbent?
<abitbent> oh very much... and now it's a favourite thought
<abitbent> which i suppose doesn't make it fantasy any longer because i've done it.. lol
<abitbent> *brain cramp*
<jewel`{F}> but has it made you have more extreme fantasies about it abitbent?
<Prathen> I think I need to find out how to find the slave right for me
<abitbent> oh indeed jewel`{F}
<Xeper> yaa Prathen thats ....thats hard
<jewel`{F}> i know some of my fantasies have done that after they have been fulfilled
<`abi> and sometimes abitbent, I think that having experienced something, makes it a favourite fantasy ....
<abitbent> the sequel is better than the original.. lol
<`abi> fleshes it out, so to speak ;)
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
* abitbent writes down fleshing it out