April 30 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
* |Karen stretches
<|Karen> okay folks. time to get started
<elbowfetish> ICE produced FahionCares, so it was a blast. :-)
<|Karen> Tonight's topic is "how to survive the loss of a bdsm relationship"
<|Karen> and I'm the moderator tonight
<|Karen> so....anyone got a bit of experience in the area?
<|Karen> I know I have.
* canplay puts her hand up
<|Karen> and what have you learned, canplay?
<canplay> oh this one is still hurting, has not learned how to let it go yet Karen, i intend on listening tonight *smiles*
* |Karen smiles 'anyone else?'
<Kirspin> I think we all have at one time or another, just have to start again an cultivate a new rl
<|Karen> do you think about why the last one ended, Kirspin? and try not to make the same mistakes?
<|Karen> take some time for healing the wounds?
<Kirspin> Yes I was in too much of am hurry and didnt repect my sub the right way
* canplay ponders the idea of "just haveing to start again"
<crysania^> the one in r/l ended amicably but one i had on=line ended very badly and have not gone back to the room where i met Him since
<|Karen> I have taken that time, perhaps a bit too much navel-gazing at times :)
* Kilted_One would like to remind everyone that this discussion is being logged and will be posted on our web page....ppl not wanting their nicks to show should change them or leave
* |Karen nods 'I was actually thinking about real life relationships...but I supose the online ones can get to us very deeply as well'
<|Karen> thank you KO
<elbowfetish> I miss the relationship more than the BDSM.
<elbowfetish> How do people deal with missing BDSM specifically?
<|Karen> that's a good Q, elbowfetish...
<|Karen> I made a decision a long time ago not to play casually while I was between relationships so it's something I've had to deal with
* Kilted_One smiles at Karen and says...dats what were are here for...
<canplay> all i know is that i gave *all* of me to my Master, and that means a deeper and more open relatoinship then just any relationship. therefore is harder to just pick up and dust off
<|Karen> I get a little bit of the D/s in being helpful at munches....nametag girl, cakegirl...whatever...a mini kind of service
* |Karen nods to canplay 'and I gave a great deal more then I realized at the time....he changed me. significantly. and didn't stay around to help me with the peices...not even as a friend.'
<|Karen> and I think the loss of his friendship has been the hardest...
<Kilted_One> would there be a difference in the level of emotion felt after the break up if you were Top or bottom sub or Dom/me?.....male or female....or is it just the vannila thing with unrequited love that hurts the most???
* canplay nods
<crysania^> dreams and fantasies, have been told mind is the largest sex organ
<Leathersmith> until just recently i had no idea you could play unless uyou were in a relationship so i've been doing the grin and bear it thing.
<|Karen> well KO...can you speak to that? as a Dom? was there someone before vixen?
<canplay> maeks me really stop and think if i am able to submit fully again
<Kilted_One> not in the BDSM world no....
<elbowfetish> So the physical addiction to SM isn't as much of a loss when it stops?
<|Karen> it hasn't been for me, elbowfetish... although I've just recently decided to get endorphins via exercise instead of the fun way
<canplay> does not consider bdsm as pure physical, so no elbow,, the lose is more then sex
<`shado> physical does not necessarily mean sex...BDSM can be very physical without sex
<`vixie> very true shado
<|Karen> is there anyone here that thinks....the loss of a bdsm relationship is no different then the loss of a vanilla one?
<canplay> true shado,, so let me rephrase that,, the lose is emotional
* Kilted_One thinks that the one that "feels" the deepest or strongest in a break up is not normally the one initiating the break and therefore feels the most pangs from it
<TechnoMage`> Our "mental health professionals" would say that BDSM is a co-dependant relationship. Therefore more difficult to handle a breakup.. Me, I think ALL relationships are co-dependant...
<`shado> i think the loss of any relationship that is intense would be the same....intense marriage...friendship..etc
* Kilted_One agrees with that shado....but you will have to define "sex" as there seems to be various "takes" on that in the USA ;)
<`shado> agreed KO
<canplay> i guess my marriage was not intense then, as my 14 year marriage did not hurt near as much as my 10 month relationship with Master
* |Karen would like to recommend a book "How to Survive the Loss of a Love"
<TechnoMage`> A breakup that included BOTH marriage and BDSM is no picnic... I speak from experience here...
<canplay> author Karen?
<|Karen> it can probably found at any library. three authors...
<|Karen> Melba Colgrove, Harold Bloomfield, and Peter McWilliams
<canplay> did you read these Karen?
<|Karen> one book, co-authored, and I have it in front of me...I have read it. a few times
<Panache> good evening all
<canplay> please give me a few hints on letting go then Karen,, just the highlites *smiles*
<|Karen> time is the big one.
<|Karen> just keep getting out of bed every morning.
<|Karen> keep yourself busy with friends and activities
<canplay> well i know it is like grieving, but was hoping for more *grins*
<|Karen> let yourself feel what you need to feel....
* Kilted_One reminds ppl that Karen works in a library ;)
<Panache> there isnt anything to make it easy canplay
* |Karen grins 'and yes, the University of Waterloo library does own a copy of this book'
<|Karen> more? take this time to think about what you want from life....
<canplay> then how does one not blame her submissivness for the breakups,,and can still feel good enough to carry on?
<|Karen> do you want to play casually while looking for the next relationship?
<Kilted_One> is there anything that one can do do "help" get over someone after the relationship breaks up??
<|Karen> why....blame the submissivesness?
<canplay> cause don't we all blame ourselves? or am i strange here?
<Panache> there is a wonderful book called "surviving the loss of a love", it is not specifically on any kind of relationship, I found it very soothing
<|Karen> you mean...how to help someone else who is suffering, KO?
<|Karen> I think it's the same book I just recommended, Panache
* Kilted_One thinks that both was intended..what can be offered and what is required
<Panache> that is what I get for coming in late, but that is two recomendations
<`abi> I think there's often a tendency to blame oneself canplay...but is blaming yourself the same as blaming your submissiveness?
<|Karen> I used to blame myself....and that is one great thing about this relationship breaking up...
* canplay makes not to go get the book
<|Karen> I realized that we both had responsibility for the breakup...that he fucked up as much as I did.
* canplay just feels if i were better sub He would have appreciated me more
* |Karen offers canplay a hug
<canplay> thanks Karen :)
<TechnoMage`> It always takes two Karen... In retrospect, I've found many ways I could have saved my marriage - but at the time my pride got in the way...
<|Karen> I think perhaps....that you can't blame yourself entirely....that if he was the Dom that was meant for you, he would have appreciated you as you were.
<Panache> canplay, "if I were" is a very natural response, "If I had only" I Should have"
<zaRina`> i am recently ,,, single by choice
<zaRina`> hi A/all btw
<|Karen> indeed, TechnoMage....it does take two....
<zaRina`> but as much as i am , enjoying this RIGHT decision , ,, theres a tendancy to look back over O/ones shoulder,, and what you left, suddenly seems, desirable again,, cause its familiar,,,, its , easier than looking to the unknown
<Panache> but the fact is, you are who you are, and are very valuable just because you are...
<|Karen> to make it work as much to make it fall apart
* Panache spent six years getting her degree in psychology and seven years in therapy
<|Karen> Kirspin recommended heading right back out and finding another relationship at the beginning of this discussion...
<|Karen> has that worked for anyone?
<zaRina`> and its ok to trust Y/yourself again,, ,,, you just have to put one foot forward and it gets easier
<TechnoMage`> I'm currently in that same situation zaRina' -- a lack of "closure"... Though nearly a year's passed, and she's now living with another (vanilla) she continues to call me seeking approval...
<|Karen> does that new relationship actually work in itself? or is it another breakup waiting in the wings? the rebound relationship?
<Panache> I have found that if I am not recovered enough to really love myself, I can not give real love to another
* |Karen nods 'very wise, Panache'
<zaRina`> revisiting the past too often tho,, makes it that much harder to step clear,, and O/others who may be interested, may feel Y/you arent ready to start fresh,, cause your back in the past yet again
<Kilted_One> is the key in self esteem?? feeling good about yourself??
* |Karen smiles, thinks of Star Trek:Deep Space Nine
<|Karen> in the first episode of that series, these aliens who don't understand linear time ask our hero, Ben Sisko, why he is living in the past.
<Panache> I believe a healthy relationship requires healthy partners, I can not be that if I am not recovered from past experiences
<TechnoMage`> Yes... in the case of my "ex", this causes her new partner to be insecure, and puts her new relationship at risk.. For me, being draged back into the past prevents my moving forward with confidence.
<|Karen> he doesn't understand...but eventually he comes to understand that what they mean is that he is letting his grief over the death of his wife destroy his present and future...that he needs to let go of the past
<zaRina`> im sure theres not one of us who hasnt a scar or two (or are they medals) from S.O.S (surviving others sh*t)
<Panache> and I dont think there is much wrong with remembering the past if i do not dwell on the negative and remember the positive, doenst mean I am going to forget what a louse he was ;)
<TechnoMage`> medals... but only if we learn from them...
<|Karen> I think surviving my own shit is a lot harder, zaRina`....and it gives me compassion for others' shit
<BlackSpike> compassion should be reserved soley for those too afraid to ask for it
<BlackSpike> personal opinion
<zaRina`> i agree
* Kilted_One thinks that you have to learn from the past but not dwell in it....lessons learned and forgotten will be forced to be re-learned if the past is forgotten
<Panache> I disagree
* |Karen raises an eyebrow
* |Karen thinks compassion shouldn't be bottled and rationed
* Jaz^ nods in agrrement with KO
* Panache thinks compassion should be for all creatures
<|Karen> but there's that famous 'should' word
* BlackSpike thinks it should...knows enuff people who live for and on the compassion of others instead of facing the reality of the situation that they are in
<zaRina`> i agree that its always good to remember 'there but for the grace of God go i,,,, but, its ok to tell someone to kick their legs and help save themselves from drowning too
<Panache> very true, and I appologize for using it
<|Karen> 'should' is probably the biggest problem with recovering from a relationship loss...
<|Karen> as in 'I should have been a better submissive'
<Panache> when someone is drowning, can they save themselves? or do they need the life ring thrown to them?
<|Karen> or 'I should not have tried to be something I was not....in my case, polyamorous"
* TechnoMage` dabbles in Buddhism, so agrees with Panache... All are deserving of compassion.
* Kilted_One thinks that if someone is "drowning it is normally because they dont know how not to.....throwing the life preserver is a wasy of showing them a path to shore
<|Karen> it depends on the person...some need to save themselves, and some need a life preserver..
<zaRina`> time is the life ring, i just feel that its very important that we take ownership of ensuring that we ourselves learn to move forward,, cause ,,if your looking back,,remember you were drowning then,,,,,
<BlackSpike> drowning is not of the same nature as recovering for a realtionship...
<|Karen> it also depends on the moment in that person's path....
<zaRina`> better then , say,, surviving a near drowning
<|Karen> I disagree BlackSpike
<|Karen> I have been....recently even....drowning in grief
<|Karen> that is loss, that is part of the recovery
<Panache> I agree people need to take responsibility for their own behavior, but sometimes, people need someone to guide and listen, give them a map, and show them how to follow
<BlackSpike> and who's fault is it that you were drowing in greif? your own
<BlackSpike> but its not going to kill you to feel sorry for yourself a little
<zaRina`> and W/we are, Karen,, sorry for Your loss ,, please don't think of myself as uncompasionate
<BlackSpike> each person is entited to self pity now and again
* |Karen raises her eyebrow
* |Karen thinks about what Panache has said
* Kilted_One thinks that the "drowning" reference was figuratively speaking BlackSpike
<Panache> I take Wednesdays, I wallow on Wednesdays and worry on Thursdays, the rest of the week, I get by
* BlackSpike ponders that
<|Karen> do you think that submissives need someone to guide and listen, give them a map....more so then Doms?
<TechnoMage`> On a mailing list, someone mentioned that an earing in the right ear once meant that a sailor had survived a shipwreck. I responded that I might get one when my divorce is finalized... (Figuratively speaking!)
<|Karen> perhaps? or is it more individual then that?
<BlackSpike> I think that both can survive whitout the other just fine...but in the long view of things...they do tend to complete the circle for eachother
<Panache> no, I am speaking of people in general, Doms dont have all the answers
<|Karen> but are Doms more likely to survive on their own then subs?
<Panache> I dont think they are, they are people too
<|Karen> I know that that is one thing that threw me terribly right after the relationship broke up....all the rules I had had in the relationship were gone..
<|Karen> I had no....structure
<BlackSpike> but any sub/bottom/slave that cannot guide her/himself without the aid of a Dom/me should seriously look at getting out of the lifestyle because they are going to become very co-dependant on somone
<Panache> and perhaps they have it worse because they are "supposed" to have all the answers
<BlackSpike> same with Dom/me's
<|Karen> the return of freedom was very destablizing...
<|Karen> the rules that had become habit were torturous reminders of what was...and something very difficult to break with
<BlackSpike> freedom is supposed to be destabilizing...its how we learn our limits
<BlackSpike> personal opinion
<TechnoMage`> I have taken FAR longer to move on than my ex-wife/submissive did... But mainly because I still held hope that we could reconcile... She, on the other hand, felt such a need for a partner that she grabbed the first man who showed interest. - a mistake.
<Jaz^> I agree with you BlackSpike.......We are all responsible for ourselves, as you noted earlier. We can look to others for support yet the bottomline is that we as individual have to stand on our own two feet
<|Karen> but to be destablized, _and_ grieving at the same time?
<BlackSpike> yep...its another form of personal growth Karen
<Panache> isnt that what grieving is Karen?
<|Karen> Panache....I'm trying to seperate out the bdsm aspects from the 'normal' grief
<BlackSpike> learning how to deal with our inner feelings and how we percieve the world helps and promotes personal and social growth
<|Karen> the destablizing effects of freedom for a sub who now is without rules and structure...
<|Karen> I don't disagree with you BlackSpike, but I think your view is somewhat...harsh and cold
<zaRina`> it is a terrible time ,,, a very dangerous time,, the post break up ,,its easy to self distruct. Its important to address these feelings,,and map out a survival plan,,and get up and move on
<Panache> sorry, but I find feelings to be the same, no matter what the relationship
<BlackSpike> on paper Karen...i would agree it looks harsh
* BlackSpike winks
<Kilted_One> in a TPE relationship the slave/submissive has been used to being led, decisions being made for them ect....I think that is the difference that Karen was trying to make??
<|Karen> yes, KO. thank you
<Panache> I will give on that one ;)
* BlackSpike ponders
<zaRina`> giving up the ability to make a decision in a relationship should not impact the ability of self preservation
<BlackSpike> I have a somewhat different view of a TPE it seems
* BlackSpike ^5's zaRina`
<|Karen> an example....my ex gave me two orders that had become so deeply ingrained that the circumstances caused great pain each time...
<Kilted_One> can you share it with us BlackSpike?
* gem``` chuckles a little at the topic of discussion
<|Karen> one, that I was to take the steps up to my office instead of the elevator...just looking at the elevator and stairwell every day was a painful reminder...and yet I still had to work
<BlackSpike> sure...this is what I have learned...now remember because it works for me...it may not work for everyone like this
<|Karen> I can only imagine what it is to have been branded or tattoo'd and facing that kind of reminder
<BlackSpike> A Top/bottom...Dom/me/sub etal realtyionship is a partnership of sorts
<BlackSpike> sorry about spellings
<BlackSpike> one cannot be strong in all cases and should rely on the other half to come up where they are weakest
* Kilted_One thinks that Karen should then view the steps as both mental and physical step of strengthening for her...steps upward away from her past life and on with the new one
<BlackSpike> even though one is clearly dominant...its exhausting to have to make all the decisions and lead all the time
* LadyDomi agrees whole-heartedly with Kilted One
<BlackSpike> think of it as two halfs of a circle
* |Karen smiles at KO 'I work on the ground floor now, KO....it's been two years since that particular problem'
<BlackSpike> one must complete the other
<BlackSpike> my version of a TPE
<|Karen> so....do we have any summary we can make?
<BlackSpike> its something I learned from the Calgary Leather community over the last couple of year
<zaRina`> dont eat yellow snow?
<Vladislaw> good evening everyone
* LadyDomi laughs!
<|Karen> since we seem headed into triviality...
<zaRina`> Karen,, trust me,, move into the light,, you might be suprised at what awaits
<|Karen> zaRina`....thank you, but this discussion isn't just about me. I'd hoped that others would be able to take something valuable from it
* Kilted_One thinks that the best possible change that one has of a speedy recovery is a good network of friends that can constantly offer support when it is need
* |Karen smiles at KO
<zaRina`> of course, as i said, im doing the same survivor series myself,, (GREAT Discussion btw)
<BlackSpike> how about "life is too short...stop groaning about the work load and get on with it"
<|Karen> ok, so....have a good network of friends
<|Karen> give yourself time
<|Karen> keep getting up in the morning
<|Karen> keep yourself busy
<Panache> how about take care of yourself
<|Karen> live in the present, and don't dwell on the past
* Kilted_One thinks that BlackSpike's outlook is maybe a little to harsh and uncaring for most ppl today
<Panache> and be kind to yourself
* BlackSpike thinks KO knows him better than that
* |Karen smiles at Panache 'that was actually the best advice I got right after it happened...take some time for a little TLC...tender loving care'
<SkyDom> I gotta do my income tax tomorrow....cuz I don't wanna leave it to the last minute.
* Kilted_One smiles at BlackSpike and thinks that unrequited love can leave on a little on the cynical at times
<|Karen> and the book "how to Survive the Loss of a Love" comes highly recommended by more then one source
<BlackSpike> maybe for some KO...I'd agree...but these are ideas that took time to learn
* Kilted_One nods at BlackSpike
<|Karen> okay, so we're out of time....thanks to all for participating...
<Panache> thank you Karen
<|Karen> the log ends now, but the discussion is certainly welcome to continue
* Kilted_One hugs Karen cause she "survived" and done a great jog to boot
<TechnoMage`> Thanks Karen - a great discussion!
<|Karen> and anyone who wants more details on that book can feel free to ask me