April 28, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

Session Start: Sun Apr 28 20:59:31 2002
<cynde> be well and stay safe A/all
<rhiannon{KO}> lol #bdsm-kw url is http://home.golden.net/~ehbc
<Kilted_One> be well cynde
<rhiannon{KO}> bye cynde
<Captain_suzq> hello Bernie :)
<BernieRoehl> Hi, everyone!
<Kilted_One> hiya BernieRoehl
* oasis{Omy} huggles and gropes Bernie
<Captain_suzq> hi fiestyone
<rhiannon{KO}> hello dalian.
<Captain_suzq> hi dalian :)
<Kilted_One> greetings fiestyone
<dalian> greetings everyone
<Omy> Evening BernieRoehl
* BernieRoehl settles in and gets comfortable
<Kilted_One> greetings firestar{DC}
<Captain_suzq> hi firestar :)
<pandora``> hello BernieRoehl
<firestar{DC}> evening A/all
<BernieRoehl> I'm just setting up the logging and the automatic message... be with you all in a minute or two...
<oasis{Omy}> hi firestar{DC}
* pandora`` waves goodbye and wanders off to watch the hockey game
<rhiannon{KO}> hello firestar{DC} ltns.
<rhiannon{KO}> bye sis, have fun
<Captain_suzq> nite pandora
<fiestyone> hello A/all...and thank you
<Omy> Evening firestar{DC}
<firestar{DC}> i know i know, r/t happens
<rhiannon{KO}> wow is that really Thor{j}
<Captain_suzq> hello Thor{j}
* rhiannon{KO} rubs her eyes..
* jewell{T} sits in shock as she sees her Master appear
<rhiannon{KO}> welcome to channel Thor{j}..
* rhiannon{KO} giggles @ jewell{T}.
<Thor{j}> hello all
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm, and time for our regular weekly discussion
<Kilted_One> Tal Thor{j}
* rhiannon{KO} pinches Thor{j} to see if He is real.
<Captain_suzq> hello Dragonchaser
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows:
<Kilted_One> greetings Dragonchaser
* jewell{T} goes to her Master and kneels at His side
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Balancing Sexual Submission with Sexual Equality". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> This topic was first suggested quite some time ago. The issue is something that some submissive women have struggled with, the idea that they are equals to men in every respect, but still see themselves as sexually submissive
<BernieRoehl> So... anyone have any opening thoughts?
<Omy> define equal in every respect
* Kilted_One wonders if anyone else sees that "submission" still allows one to be "equal" just not the same
* rhiannon{KO} giggles.
<Omy> I don't see women equal in "every" respect
<BernieRoehl> Equality is a complicated term. I think the intent is that everyone is treated or regarded equally by society as a whole -- in other words, that men and women have (at least in principle) equal opportunities and equal social standing.
<dalian> isn't the leash simply the balance between the Master and slave on either side
<Omy> Well Bernie, that is not the case...but I see where your going.I still don't see the issue and perhaps a submissive in the room would care to enlighten me
<Kilted_One> well put dalian
<oasis{Omy}> physically we cannot be equals we are built different for different purposes... our basis in nature is different... sexual submission.. feels natural... in most cases we slip into thjat role...
* rhiannon{KO} agrees with oasis{Omy}.
<Sir_StephenS> we could define "equal" in sexual terms as both partners being entitled to the same amount of enjoyment, or at least the same opportunities
<`abi> how does that explain the submission of a male oasis?
<oasis{Omy}> i said in most cases
<oasis{Omy}> we are in base part female part male... one part is just predominate
<`abi> are you suggesting that male submissives have a stronger female component than Dominant males?
<oasis{Omy}> i am suggesting that traites in herant to females can be stronger in some males
<Dr_Eva> What about the big ol' scary Butch dykes who are submissives?
<Omy> How does it explain the Dominant Female abi? I think if we are going to take it literally and not by the intent we are not going to get afr.
<oasis{Omy}> as are some traites that are inherant to males can be stronger in some females
<Omy> I just hand them a razor Dr_Eva :)
<`abi> because I don't think that females are innately submissive Omy ... as a gender ... nor are males innately Dominant as a gender
<Dr_Eva> as opposed to me, being a big old butch dyke dom
<Omy> Well abi I think in society, as a gender the roles were more clearly defined at one point in history and now those lines are being blurred
<`abi> they are being blurred Omy because they were always artificial
<Dr_Eva> what do y'all see as sexual equality?
<^^^^zaR> ya when we females were ordered back into the kitchens from the production lines
<oasis{Omy}> instead of labeling we are trying to understand.. we think backwards
<`abi> Dr Eva...I see sexual equality as having equal choice in determining destiny ... not having roles predetermined by gender
<Omy> Well that is a matter of interpetation abi. I think the blurring of the lines has soem positive aspects as well as negative aspects. BDSM is beoming more popular I think because of this blurring of the lines
<oasis{Omy}> i belive we where always sexually equal it was 'religion' that changed that
* BernieRoehl nods at abi
<Dr_Eva> I see sexual equality as both getting their needs met
<BernieRoehl> I think the person who first suggested the topic took "sexual equality" to be something along the lines of "equal under the law" -- that is, having equal treatment, not necessarily being (for example) physical equals
<oasis{Omy}> listening communicating.
* firestar{DC} agrees with Dr Eva
<`abi> I think BDSM is becoming more popular because people are becoming more comfortable about choosing the way they wish to live their lives
<Dr_Eva> so really are we talking about gender equality?
<firestar{DC}> i understand it as 'partner equality' whether genders are same or not
<`abi> I would say so, yes Dr. Eva ... because I think that BDSM intentionally tips the scales of equality ... but it is by choice and that's what makes the difference
<Dr_Eva> good one firestar
<oasis{Omy}> being treated as if my needs or desires are as important as my mmmmmmaster's isnt equality its respect
<Sir_StephenS> Bernie, you mentioned that some sub women struggle with the idea of being equal but sexually submissive...does the reverse happen, ie doms who struggle in viewing themselve as equal but are sexually dominant
<^^^^zaR> why do some Dominants have great issue with a female being a Top or Dominant? Alot, think that they are just females in need of a good Topping, or one that just hasnt met the right Dom (male)
<Dragonchaserfs> but if one gives submission and one doms then it is not equal
<`abi> of coarse oasis...self-respect is implicit to mental health .. choosing to submit, to intentionally shift the balance of power, does not imply lack of self-respect
<Dr_Eva> there are lots of feminist who think submitting by a woman is a crime against all women
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Sir_StephenS, I think it does
<firestar{DC}> very true, Dr Eva, very narrow minded
<Dragonchaserfs> then if a man submits is it a crime also to men
<firestar{DC}> they are that is
<Dr_Eva> they don't understand power exchange at all
<Omy> Well Dr Eva..I think those women need to grow up and treat unto others
<kneels> part of my attraction to bdsm (and i believe very strongly in womans rights as far as pay equality etc and am very independant in many aspects of my life) is THE inequality, i want to be treated like (and i dont just mean role play) a little girl, a princess, a slut, whatever
<oasis{Omy}> the crime.. is when a person is not allowed or judged in the eyes of his or her own peers ... for thier own personal choices
<Dr_Eva> I do not see submissives as less important than doms
<Sir_StephenS> where would the struggle for a dom occur in being sexual dominant - that he is viewed as selfish?
<Dr_Eva> maybe selfish, maybe abusive by those who have no understanding of the dynamic
<firestar{DC}> where would the Dom/me be without a submissive and vise versa, each are equally important in that stance
<oasis{Omy}> neigther do I... but I am offended when a feminist tells me I am less female by folling the desires that are as old as time... I have and am treated with far more respect by my neanderthal Dom
* oasis{Omy} winks at her Master
* Omy raises an eyebrow and grunts twice
* BernieRoehl smiles
<`abi> I don't think you are less female oasis...but I also suspect that there were more than a few neanderthal men who got wrestled to the ground by the women in their lives ... those desires are as old as time too
<kneels> firestar you mean the power exchange should be equal..and i agree...but i dont belive the Dom and sub are equal...well in my case i dont want it that way
<BernieRoehl> Have any submissive women had encounters with people who identify themselves as feminist?
<Dr_Eva> I thought he was cromagnon, oasis
<oasis{Omy}> lolol Dr_Eva
<Sir_StephenS> so is this the problem: the sub is conflicted because he/she is being 'selfless', yet they have their own desires...and those 2 things are in conflict
<Omy> It is funny that those that are crying that they were not treated fairly and were being judged harshly have tunred the table and now do exactly what they accused others of doing to them.
<firestar{DC}> kneels i was speaking on the sexual side only.... for the power exchange my Master is definately HIGHER than this one
<Dr_Eva> At Beat Me in St Louis this weekend, someone told a friend of ours that dyke bois are setting the feminist movement behind 100 years
<kneels> could you define bois for me please DrEva?
<^^^^zaR> why so Dr_Eva? What is the rational behind that thought?
<kneels> <~~~so out of the loop
<oasis{Omy}> yepp cave dwelling knuckle dragger that he is... but.. he listens teaches enhances my world so that we may grow together.. that is my choice.. I am not treated as if i lack intellegence or that I have no worth ..far from it...
<Dr_Eva> dykes who identify as male, but as bois, not men.
<kneels> thankyou
<kneels> it amazes me how unaccepting others can be of people with a different lifestyle when they are also misunderstood often
<Dr_Eva> zaR, I think it's because they are identifying as male gender, but feminist think that calls up male priviledge, when they should demand the same priviledge from a female identitiy.
<MistressSarcastica> Well, sure, if feminists want to maintain that there are only 2 genders.
<kneels> interesting theory...but as long as they dont shove it down the feminists throats....it isnt thier business
<MasterBaiter> Only 2 genders? How boring is that?
<Dr_Eva> and somehow they always do MistreaaSarcastica
<Dr_Eva> they, hell I am one
<Dr_Eva> <----feminist
<kneels> lol MasterBaiter...god nick
<kneels> good too
<MistressSarcastica> How many genders can you count?
<Dr_Eva> TNTC too numerous to count
<oasis{Omy}> the world is completely grey not black and white... soooo who defines what is a complete male or complete female...
<kneels> night :)
* ^^^^zaR thinks that one thru, trying to put the jigsaw together,,but by the deffintion, seeing simply male looking fem submissives, mirroring male subs, who by deffintion would not have the right to the privilage to being considered female
<^^^^zaR> ya thats what i thought i wrote!
<Dr_Eva> it's all confusing to me too
<^^^^zaR> quite interesting visual though!
<^^^^zaR> ;)
<Dr_Eva> dyke bois sometimes identify as gay males
<Dr_Eva> and only play with each other
<^^^^zaR> ah so they would seek out a butch Dyke most likely?
<^^^^zaR> vs a lipstick Les?
<Dr_Eva> Dyke Daddy, or another boi
<Dr_Eva> Midori has a boi
<Dr_Eva> and she's way femme
<^^^^zaR> smiles,, thankyou for answering my questions ,, always alot to learn
<Omy> If your trying to act like a boy, are you not then fighting againt the truth?
<MasterBaiter> What's the "truth"?
<Dr_Eva> maybe they are transgendered, I know many are.
* BernieRoehl senses that we're drifting a bit off-topic
<^^^^zaR> but that would be like the boi prefering a Feminine Top vs a Masculine Top (please forgive my terms, hoping all are potitically correct)
<Omy> Sorry Bernie...will get back on track
<^^^^zaR> but it just shows how easily lines get blurred if you limit to trying to pigenhole them as being defined by sexual gender,,
<Dr_Eva> it went that way, because gender plays a role in the inequality - real or perceived
<BernieRoehl> I'm curious if anyone here has actually wrestled with these issues. Is it a common problem?
<Dr_Eva> Lustygurl faces it all the time
<Dr_Eva> her degree is in feminist theory
<Sir_StephenS> hmm..that should help her
<Omy> I think Bernie its a problem if one choses to make it one. If your submissive, then by definition are you not then transferring control to your partner?
<Dr_Eva> If she wants to submit, her academic side says it isn't permissable
<Dr_Eva> not permissible to even have the desires.
* Omy tosses the word 'sexually' up there before 'submissive'
<MasterBaiter> So how does she cope, Dr_Eva?
<oasis{Omy}> my academic side.. says its the lay of nature
<Dr_Eva> it's tough
<oasis{Omy}> law
<^^^^zaR> but then, as a woman could she not justify it with having empowered herself to make the decision to submit, thus satisfying her desires
<Dr_Eva> we talk about it, and about the fact that women didn't fight against enslavement by men to be enslaved by other women's opinions of right and wrong
<Omy> Isn't it a lot of work to fught against something that comes naturally Dr_Eva?
<Dr_Eva> it doesn't come that naturally for her, she has always been dominant sexually before now
<Dr_Eva> but you're right Omy, way easier to accept the natural
* ^^^^zaR doesnt think that just because you prefer one side of a coin that you shouldnt at least examine the other
<^^^^zaR> if you choose to
<Sir_StephenS> contraywise, just because it is natural doesn't mean it should be pursued
<oasis{Omy}> it is if it feels rite for the individual
<Omy> Agreed zar...it is a matetr of choice
<Omy> If it is natural Sir_StephenS and feels comfortable and you desire it, then why not pursue it?
<Dragonchaserfs> ok but what about the bisexual aspect..
* MasterBaiter scrolls back.
<MasterBaiter> bisexual aspect?
<Sir_StephenS> it is natural to be selfish, but should not necessarily pursue
<Omy> As a submissive you have the choice to submit...so as zar said earlier, the sub can empower themself to submit willingly without fear.
<oasis{Omy}> being sexually submissive doesnt mean I am not gonna jump Masters bones when am frisky..
<Omy> Well Sir_StephenS..I am selfish...and sometimes I do pursue it. Part of my makeup and I have no guilt about it.
<Kilted_One> is it being to simplistic to simply treat "everyone" as a human being "first" and then whatever they ask to be referred to next?
<Omy> That would make common sense Kilted_One
* firestar{DC} high fives Kilted_One
* jewell{T} concurs with KO
<Kilted_One> I have found few that object to that outlook through the years
<MistressSarcastica> and yet, Kilted_One, I see people being none-consentually treated as their "role" all the time.
<Symmetre> if a person is submissive, then they will inevitibly behave that way to one degree or another ... it's not something you can turn on or off like a light switch ...
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with KO
<MasterBaiter> Not simplistic, but perhaps idealistic. I would *love* people to approach one another with no preconceptions, but I can't see it happening. We instinctively categorize.
<Dragonchaserfs> how can you balance sexual submission with equality when the Dom/e is controling the submissive.. the submissive is not equal and accepts the Dom/me's actions in order to please .. with no control over how the Dom chooses to play her body
<Kilted_One> then would that not go against the second part of the statement MistressSarcastica??
<MistressSarcastica> How do you mean, Kilted_One?
<rhiannon{KO}> but Dragonchaserfs, do we not A/all start off equaly
<Kilted_One> I dont MasterBaiter, I wait I ask I observe and try to follow what the "person" wants
<MasterBaiter> Dragonchaserfs: I would say that the equality occcurs during the power exchange.
<rhiannon{KO}> before we as submissives hand over our lives to our Master/Dom, do we not discuss on an equal basis our needs and wants etc?
* firestar{DC} is confused how can equality happen during "power exchange"
<Kilted_One> "being none-consentually treated as their "role" all the time", would not be treating an individual the way they "ask" to be treated
<Symmetre> role?
* Kilted_One was quoting what MistressSarcastica said earlier
<MistressSarcastica> yes, Kilted_One, I think we are saying the same thing. People first, role (if negotiated) second
* Kilted_One nods K MistressSarcastica misunderstood what you meant then thanks
<Dragonchaserfs> if you submit sexualy to the Dom/me the how can it be considered equal if the Dom/me is controling the play.. yes we sit and talk about our needs in the begining but then there is Dom/me and submissive not equal but intune with each others needs..
<^^^^zaR> .
<Kilted_One> for power to flow in a circuit the battery has to have a + and a - same as in a power exchange play firestar{DC} both are equal but opposite and hence there is a flow of power
* firestar{DC} winks at Master, exactly this one's thoughts
<oasis{Omy}> why is it sooo important to be equal... noone ever is.. its not possible
<Omy> I think the equality comes from the sub agreeing to the inequality Dragonchaserfs...the concept of choice
* BernieRoehl notes that we're down to the final few minutes of tonight's discussion
<Symmetre> I don't know about "negotiating roles" ... being submissive or dominant is an element of one's sexual orientation ... that's like suggesting one can "negotiate" to be bisexual or homosexual. You have to be what you are ... not something else
<rhiannon{KO}> yes Dragonchaserfs, but during that initial phase of getting to know one another, discussing needs etc. do you not wish for the submissive to speak on equal ground as You, so that she knows exactly what she is getting into? then once the relationship is established then the submissive takes her place?
* firestar{DC} nods in agreement with KO
<MasterBaiter> Symmetre: read it as "negotiating expressions of roles", then. You can certainly be what you are to different extents, based on whom you're playing with.
<Dragonchaserfs> then Omy how can you have sexual equality with submission ..
<^^^^zaR> ^^^^LS has just stated that His interpratation of the topic tonite, is that it gives me the right to say "not tonite dear" and that the topic itself is an oxymoron
<rhiannon{KO}> lol
<Omy> Because there is choice Dragonchaserfs...there wasn't always choice
* Symmetre disagrees, MasterBaiter ... a dog can't negotiate to be a cat
<MasterBaiter> Then we disagree, Symmetre. I play significantly different roles at different times. Works for me.
<MistressSarcastica> But a dog chooses to whom it will submit / be loyal, just as it chooses who it will bite.
<Dragonchaserfs> so if one chooses to be submissive then the equality comes from the negotations of the needs and desires of both parties involved
<^^^^zaR> my thought on it is (in rebuttal) is that by my submitting, my sexual equality comes from my choosing someone that will sexually satisfy me, thus giving me sexual equality
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's just about 10 pm, so I'm going to close the log
<BernieRoehl> Please feel free to continue discussing things informally
<Symmetre> yes MistressSarcastica ... but it's still a dog
<Kilted_One> well done Bernie on a very difficult topic
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone for participating in the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, KO
<dalian> great discussion Bernie
<BernieRoehl> I'm going to head offline for a bit to process and upload the log
<BernieRoehl> See you all later!
<Omy> Excellent topic Bernie..Thanks!
<Captain_suzq> nite Bernie
* /quit: not connected to server Session Close: Sun Apr 28 22:00:31 2002