April 11 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> Welcome everyone to our weekly discussion time

<`abi> _Tonight's topic is "Integrating BDSM in Your Life". We will be logging this discussion for posting to the ehbc website. If you wish your nick to be changed to "Guest" on the log before it is posted, please message me.

<`abi> Lets start by discussing our BDSM personality....is it distinctly different from our the personality that we travel around the vanilla world with?

<tvsubbie4you> myself abi, i dont think so

<`abi> you're the same guy wherever you go tv?

<tvsubbie4you> other than a couple of differences, yes abi

<`abi> what differences tv?

<tvsubbie4you> well, obviously my appearance, and my self image....

<tvsubbie4you> and that fact that when i AM dressed, i am a little more quieter

<`abi> ..so then your BDSM personality isn't fully integrated in your everyday life

<BernieRoehl> I don't really distinguish between my BDSM personality or my daily life personality... it's all me.

<BernieRoehl> However, different facets of my personality come through in different contexts.

<`abi> is the Bernie that we see the same Bernie that the people outside the BDSM community see?

<BernieRoehl> For the most part.

<Wolfe^en> I think there are subtle differences in our demeanor depending on where we are

<`abi> what kind of differences Wolfe^en?

<tvsubbie4you> circumstances will always dictate how W/we act...bdsm or vanilla not withstanding

<BernieRoehl> Yes. The side of me that my co-workers see is slightly different from the side that my friends see, which is slightly different from the side that a stranger might see.

<`abi> but do we see ourselves differently in those different parts of our lives?

<Wolfe^en> kids, family, work,etc

<elbowfetish> LMNOP is something I use as sexplay, but it leaks a bit to other things.

<Wolfe^en> I may yell at someone at work, but it stays at work

<`abi> in what ways elbowfetish?

<elbowfetish> Many people have a BDSM persona opposite to RL as a fantasy/escape.

<`abi> so BDSM can play different roles for different people

* vixen{KO} waves and listens

<elbowfetish> I don't expect a partner to be "in role" 24/7

* growl````` is always herself

<Achilles{tr}> If I look even tot hose within the community, I know I behave differently with folksin a BDSM context than in a more public, vanilla context. abi for example. I think W/we interact differently in community situations than in non-BDSM ones.

<`abi> that's part of the question elbowfetish...is BDSM a "role" we play....or is it who we are?

<growl`````> i think it's who i am

<Wolfe^en> it is a part of My life

<Karenkit> it's part of who I am....not all of it

<tvsubbie4you> i agree with growl :)

<elbowfetish> RL has too many contstraints that you can forget when you're playing.

<growl`````> i will always be submissive no matter what

<dalian{B}> i would agree for the most part

<`abi> does anyone find the level of integration has changed for them over time?

<cyberbrat_> me abi! me!

<della^> it is who i am..and encompasses everything i do..for it is me...

<vixen{KO}> yes, it

<BernieRoehl> I find it gets easier the older I get.

<v_a_silent> i agree with growl, i have always had a submissive nature; it is very noticable

<Kilted_One> _1it changed for me with a change in realtionship abi_

<BernieRoehl> I don't have to hide as much of myself as I used to.

<vixen{KO}> yes, it's changed and evolved...as life should

<elbowfetish> Compare work with play: who's a dom at work?

<`abi> why is it easier Bernie?

<cyberbrat_> they used to be completely separate for me. and i kept them that way. now they are growing together, and that is my preference.

<Achilles{tr}> By integration do We mean the fuzzing of the line between Our BDSM and vanilla lives?

<Karenkit> but I don't seperate my parts into little components....I believe in integration...

<growl`````> i don't have two lives

<growl`````> i only live one

<`abi> perhaps Achilles...or at least a fuzzing of any distinct differences in how we view ourselves

<Achilles{tr}> One life but with many facets.

<elbowfetish> funny, all these anonymous "secret" people who say they're "integrated".

<growl`````> whether everyone in my life knows about my submission is a choice i make

<Wolfe^en> lol elbow

<elbowfetish> Doesn't being integrated equate with being out?

<BernieRoehl> I used to roughly alternate between vanilla and D/s relationships. I don't plan to do vanilla again, so I'm burning that bridge.

<Wolfe^en> out within ones own comfort level

* vixen{KO} ^5's Bernie

<`abi> interesting point elbowfetish....many of us have "nicks" which are different from our r/l names....is that because we are different people here?

* Kilted_One passes Bernie a bif blow torch

<growl`````> i am "out" with those i wish to know about my personal life

<growl`````> i don't think so abi

<BernieRoehl> I've also "come out" about my D/s interests with most of my close friends, which gives me a lot more freedom.

* tvsubbie4you finds it easier to tell more people about the things that interest me...tell one more person, the circle gets that much easier

* BernieRoehl thanks KO

<`abi> more freedom to be yourself Bernie?

<della^> exactly growl..and it is MY choice who i share info with

<Karenkit> the only reason I don't have a nick that fully reflects my name is 'cause it was already taken :)

<growl`````> that's very true tvsubbie4you :)

<BernieRoehl> Yes, exactly abi.

<Wolfe^en> en & I have come out to a lot of family & friends & co-workers

<Achilles{tr}> Certainly a freedom I envy You bernie.

<`abi> does anyone feel constricted in r/l because they can't be fully open about their sexuality?

* BernieRoehl is my actual legal name

* tvsubbie4you DOES raise a hand on this one

<growl`````> i do in a way abi

<v_a_silent> not I

<BernieRoehl> I consider myself very lucky in that respect, Achilles

<Wolfe^en> 2 votes for no

<growl`````> me and tvsubbie4you are in the same situation

<tvsubbie4you> you got it growl

<elbowfetish> freedom is why I like fantasy play, in a game you can go beyond normal limits.

<brett^> Well, i'm restricted somewhat *by* coming out to my mother....she gets on these prayer binges....

<`abi> do we see being entirely open as a goal to shoot for necessarily?

<Wolfe^en> why abi?

<growl`````> i see it like this abi

<cyberbrat_> i don't abi. there are some things that not everyone needs to know.

<Karenkit> not necessarily for me...

<BernieRoehl> No, abi -- being that open isn't for everyone.

<tvsubbie4you> i think its an ultimate goal abi..whether or not we reach it, it's the process of getting there that counts

<growl`````> i chose not to tell my parents because i live under their roof

<`abi> I'm wondering if we feel it's really a necessary thing Wolfe...or is it okay to have different compartments in our lives

<growl`````> when i have a home of my own i will not hide what or who i am

<^meow^> if i was "open" at all, that would be the end of my job

<Karenkit> I don't need to have a coworker think he can take advantage of me because he knows I'm submissive.

<Achilles{tr}> I am perceived as a very top-dog Guy in My vanilla crowd yet they do not know of My BDSM activites. A form of integration perhaps which occurs without being 'out'.

<Kilted_One> _1there are minors in our lives that cannot or should not be told_

<dalian{B}> i may not openly admit it to relatives but i dont hide it either...they havent asked ma about my sexuality yet!

<`abi> so part of the problem with being fully open is the potential for misunderstanding?

<elbowfetish> people are too complext to have one part.

<growl`````> yes abi

<elbowfetish> different parts of us dominate at different times.

<Achilles{tr}> Also the perception of BDSM is still very skewed. We suffer a persecution similar to the gay community in the 70's.

<Wolfe^en> I think it is necessary...I'm not talking about s/m only, but leaving work at work, family arguments where they belong etc

<tvsubbie4you> misunderstanding..resentment....downright hate

<Wolfe^en> persecuted? I think that is rather strong

<Achilles{tr}> Hmmm, perhaps not persecution. Perception.

<`abi> So...if we choose not to "come out"....how can we maintain our BDSM headspace in the vanilla parts of our lives?

<BernieRoehl> Yes, I agree with Wolfe^en... even though I'm "out", I still compartmentalize a fair bit.

<MistressAstra> wonders if perhaps some of the persecution comes from within the BDSM coummunity itself Achillies{tr}

<cyberbrat_> i consider 'integration' to be a personal issue...not a public one. in my mind, i embrace my submission as an integral part of my being. just doesn't mean i tell everyone :)

<`abi> in what ways Astra?

<vixen{KO}> prejudice at the very least then, Wolfe....much of the populace still needs a major education when it comes to accepting us and our lifestyles

* growl````` agrees totally with cyberbrat_

<Wolfe^en> has anyone had a friend or co-worker jump up & say...I'm gay! or I'm hetero!

<della^> bravo cyberbrat

<Wolfe^en> of coutse not

<elbowfetish> "inside" has so many rules: fetwear=black, act exactly so, etc.

<della^> exactly Wolfe..i neednot tell my mother my fave sexual position to have an intergrated lifestyle...

<della^> they do not need to know whay i wear my collar..only that i choose to...

<Achilles{tr}> To the public S&M brings horrible images of fear and pain to mind. Monstrous Dom's who control and torture their weak and snivelling subs. It is perceived in a rather bad light. I see it changing slowly of late.

<MistressAstra> since im new i have found male subbies treated differently then females.they are shooed around from channel to channel like annoying incects

<`abi> so are you saying that your sexual orientation is immaterial to your interaction with co-workers Wolfe^en?

<Achilles{tr}> Yes Wolfe.. I have had a few freidns come out to Me as gay.

<della^> yes Astra

<Wolfe^en> vixen, I accept Myself & everyone else within an alternative lifestyle...hopefully I am not alone...en agrees, so that's 2

<elbowfetish> Who is more free, but the same instead of different when they "scene"?

<Wolfe^en> yes abi!

<cyberbrat_> Achilles: that or it's taken as a joke. "whips&chains" comments elicit a LOT of laughter.

<BernieRoehl> Make that 3, Wolfe^en

<`abi> but are you comfortable enough to tell them what you do on weekends when you gather around the watercooler Wolfe^en?

* growl````` agrees with Wolfe^en

<MistressAstra> is a 4th , a game of bridge anyone?

* vixen{KO} does exactly that too, Wolfe...we have to accept ourselves if we ever expect the public to accept us.

<Achilles{tr}> Well, I admit I enjoy a "whips and chains" joke Myself now and then. Likely because I know what they mean to Me... they don't.

<BernieRoehl> I'm comfortable enough to tell anyone who sincerely wants to know. However, I'

* cyberbrat_ nods at Achilles

<cylen> i agree as well...(back from phone)

<Wolfe^en> we can't expect everyone to be interested about pur lifestyle..why should they?

<elbowfetish> I have a "scary" rep at work that far exceeds reality. :-)

<BernieRoehl> I'm careful not to tell people more than they're ready for.

<Wolfe^en> I have told some abi yes

<growl`````> that's a good aproach BernieRoehl

<`abi> how do you determine what they are ready for Bernie...how do we know what it is appropriate to share?

<Achilles{tr}> Yes. Not everyone in Our lives needs to know how much We know about ropes and blindfolds.

<MistressAstra> even in the work world i usually wear 1 peice of fet gear daily, its my armor from the real world.

<Achilles{tr}> The postman, the kid who babysits our children, our dentist.

<elbowfetish> A piece of fetwear that shows?

<Wolfe^en> agreed Bernie

<BernieRoehl> I let them set the pace. If the subject comes up, I tell them a basic minimum about my involvement. If they ask a question, I answer it. If they ask another, I answer that too. They eventually reach their comfort level and stop asking questions. :-)

<della^> Astra..i wear my colar 24/7..and have had ppl inthis lifestyle tell me it is inappropriate...

<tvsubbie4you> bbiab A/all

<`abi> is that a way to maintain your Domme headspace Astra...on a day to day basis?

<MistressAstra> yes, pvc is actually very mainstream:)

<`abi> why do they think it is inappropriate della?

<Achilles{tr}> My leather wrist bracers have been worn to more than one business meeting.

<MistressAstra> yes i think so abi, i am domme all the time, i don't usually switch on and off like a lightbulb

<cylen> I think the one thing that really "outted" me at work was my tattoo...everyone asked what the significance was....and i told most that they did not really want to know...but those who asked again...i was honest with...i am proud to have come out to faimly and friends...not ashamed...

<elbowfetish> You need control in the bedroom and deciding what to eat for dinner?

<`abi> does it make it easier or more difficult to be with those people who know cylen?

<MistressAstra> Della its only inappropriate if you feel insecure about it, if you are confident people usually wont give you any hassles

<elbowfetish> What's a BDSM outing tatoo?

<della^> i do not agree with them..Astra..i thought about that advice and realizedthat they were the insecure ones :)

<Achilles{tr}> Tattooed on yer back, "apply whip here".

<cylen> They ask alot of questions...and borrow alot of books...but none of them spoke of it to anyone else...just a new understanding

<`abi> does the insecurity come from fear?...or is it something else do you think della?

<Wolfe^en> i find the only people i feel i need to be careful with about bdsm activities, clothing, behaviour is children

<MistressAstra> great stuff della:) confidence is the best medicene

<BernieRoehl> alessia wear her collar in a lot of social situations. We get some curious looks, the occasional look of recognition, but we've never been hassled about it.

<cylen> elbowfetish...i have a tattoo of important symbol to me and my One

<della^> i have never engaged in any bdsm actiuvities in fron to f children Wolfe...

<Wolfe^en> there are those i don't really want to share this with, but my kids are the only ones who i am responsible for being careful with

<della^> i think so abi

<della^> nobody who is no in this lifestyle 9forthe most part0 has a clue about the signifigance...

<^meow^> i was quite surprised when i saw alessia wearing her collar out of doors ... but also thought she was very brave & kewl

<della^> a plant of 100 workers..and they all just think im butch ;)

<vixen{KO}> as most of you know...my KO-lar is worn every day...24/7

<`abi> why do you think it is brave meow?

<MistressAstra> wonders if single people can be more upfront with there bdsm outcoming?

<BernieRoehl> Thanks, meow. She proud of her collar, and I'm proud of her.

<Achilles{tr}> ..and very beautiful it is on your neck vixen.

<della^> and children especially..would only regard it as an odd body adornment..as my mother does ;)

<`abi> good question Astra...is it more difficult for people with families...children etc...to be open about their lifestyle?

<^meow^> that is a choice i do not have, to wear some of this "out"

* angel{A} ponders her railway crossing protectors...

<MistressAstra> is single, and plans to have no children, so this is my lifestyle choice.

<`abi> does the wearing of collars etc. in public help us to maintain a BDSM headspace...is that why we do it?

<vixen{KO}> thank you, Sir...albeit the KO-lar does envoke some strange looks & questions when at places like Zehr's or the like...

<Karenkit> Well...I just told my parents that I like to go the Gay and Lesbian Pride day marches in June....that's the closest I've ever come to coming out to parents.

<della^> i do it because it is my body adornment..as a *vanilla* person wears a necklace..that mine MAY have more signifigance is irrelevant

<`abi> how do you handle those strange looks and questions vixen?

<cylen> Oh Kilted_One vixen, i have found a couple more pendants like the one i wear...would you like one?

<Karenkit> I don't have any children 'though

<MistressAstra> perhaps armor abi?something familiar at unfamiliar situations?

<vixen{KO}> not really, abi....we do it as we are 24/7....it's the symbol of unity & my gift of submission to my Master...

<BernieRoehl> In a sense, it does help us maintain our D/s headspace abi. However, it's really more of a symbol of our relationship.

* Kilted_One smiles and says for vixen.....with a good Domme stare

<v_a_silent> my Sir has created a necklace, which can never be removed w/o a jeweler, and once i reach a goal, it is mine to wear forever

<vixen{KO}> depends on the look or the question....most times i thank them, sometimes i say it's a celtic torq...and sometimes i just wanna scratch eyes out!!!

<v_a_silent> it definitely signifies the bdsm lifestyle

<BernieRoehl> And if people notice the collar... well, then they notice the collar. Once it a while someone will ask about it, and we answer them truthfully.

<Wolfe^en> en wears a symbolic "collar" all the time & it is a reminder for her

* della^ smiles at vixen..and what does your son say about your collar?

<Kilted_One> _1most joe public have been more inquisitive than down putting_

* `abi smiles trying to picture vixen scratching someone's eyes out....you're much too sweet for that!....does anyone else get frustrated by the lack of understanding they encounter from people?

<Achilles{tr}> treasure has worn her gold chain 24/7 for 5 years now.

<cylen> it is beautiful to TW

<vixen{KO}> he calls it my tin can....his friends think it VERY goth & he's lucky to have a mom so kewl...

<della^> :)

<Achilles{tr}> Yup. yer cool vixen. KO is too I suppose. <winks>

<jenna{Victorya}> "comming out" is a ever present part of o/oour lives..explaining to teachers etc the relationship W/we have is very important to U/us..one thing W/we have learned in this process is that E/everyone is entitled to their own opinion..that it truly does not matter what others think or see for it is not they that i live with...

<della^> and so it has not corrupted him then?

<vixen{KO}> no, it hasn't corrupted him....for he's wear far more hardwear around his neck than i...LOL

<elbowfetish> You treat your kids different from co-workers different from SO etc. but...

<della^> LOL

<Wolfe^en> so we are talking, for the most part, about necklaces?

<`abi> what kind of practical problems or dangers do we face with disclosure?

<elbowfetish> Who treats their partner the same in life, not just for play?

<v_a_silent> discrimination

* Kilted_One puts his hand up

<Calentra> ignorance

<della^> we are TPE elbow

<vixen{KO}> we do, elbow...it's our way

<della^> 24/7

<Achilles{tr}> treasure also has a silver bracelet she enjoys wearing which says, "i belong to MASTER ACHILLES" on it. It's a bit much for her to wear in vanilla just now but it is worn when she is alone and wants to feel closer to me.

<Calentra> I have found more wrong idea's than no idea's of this lifestyle

* jenna{Victorya} wears a chain and lock when not at home

<vixen{KO}> clarify, please, Calentra???

<`abi> do we have any kind of obligation as a community to correct those wrong ideas Calentra?

* vixen{KO} thinks education is paramount for those of us in the lifestyle...those that are "out"

<Calentra> I think as a Domme and one who doesn't want others to 'fear' or dislike me because of it, I have an obligation

<Calentra> to teach

* jenna{Victorya} agrees with vixen{KO}

<Calentra> also don't want ppl to go into this with wrong idea's

<trufriend> i noticed a lovely lady wearing a collar at a restaurant one evening a couple weeks ago, she seemed almost embarrassed that i commented on her collar

<Calentra> such as, that control of a Dom/me is absolute and the slave/sub has no real say, those kinds of misconceptions

<trufriend> and surprised that i knew what it was

<BernieRoehl> Yes, I agree Calentra. Those of us who are "out" have an opportunity to raise peoples' awareness of our community and combat some of the negative images that some people have.

<Calentra> agreed Bernie

* vixen{KO} understands, Calentra...but teaching can come from both the Dominant side of the lifestyle as well as from the submissive side...

<`abi> how do we do that Calentra....what kinds of things do we share?

<jenna{Victorya}> W/we share it all abi....

<BernieRoehl> Absolutely, vixen.

* Karenkit sees things that look like collars on people all the time but is afraid to mention it to the person in case I'm wrong and it's just a necklace/choker..

<elbowfetish> computer geeks and rock stars have it easy. Any media personalities & politicians out?

<jenna{Victorya}> explain it to others ..let them see that every fence has a side

<Calentra> my friend came with me to a fet party and watched two ppl sceneing, she only noticed after the scene and the love between them, that it was actually a caring experience, trust paramount, and love/caring very important

<`abi> how much is it reasonable to expect vanilla friends and family to understand and accept?

<Calentra> definitely vixen, the bdsm community at large

<Calentra> then she understood

<Wolfe^en> all we ask is that they don't judge us

<`abi> is it easier to make people understand the love/caring component of what we do than to make them understand whips and chains?

<Kilted_One> _1but we are soooo good at judging ourselves are we not????_

<Calentra> that is hard to do when a lot think it is deranged in some way and dont really understand it

* vixen{KO} thinks it very important to dissuade the general bad notions most people have about the lifestyle...

<Wolfe^en> lol KO

<Calentra> TW :)

<elbowfetish> Who's out because of politics and who's out because they like public play?

<Wolfe^en> good point..our own worst enemies!

* jenna{Victorya} is out because it is who she is..

<Wolfe^en> neither elbow

<`abi> very good point KO...are we always comfortable being who we are even within our own BDSM community?

<vixen{KO}> me too, Victorya....politics nore public play enter into it at all...

<MistressAstra> is always comfortable but sometimes others may not be

<jenna{Victorya}> i am jenna vixen..<smile>

<vixen{KO}> apologies, sis...

<jenna{Victorya}> np..:)

<BernieRoehl> I am, abi.

<vixen{KO}> am not sure it's a matter of being comfortable in front of our peers...it's a matter of openly being acceptant of those around us...we must all strive for that...at least Master & i do.

<`abi> are our nicks a reflection of the real us or the BDSM us?

<Wolfe^en> ???

<Kirspin> Probably the BDSM us

<trufriend> my nick is a reflection of both "worlds" abi

<Kilted_One> _1we expect the general public to accept us without judging, but we do a poor job of not judging our own within the community_

<cyberbrat_> real!!!!

<cyberbrat_> lol

<`abi> would your vanilla friends be able to pick you out of the lineup here by your name?

<BernieRoehl> Very true, KO.

* vixen{KO} was a vixen LONG before she ever openly practised anything lifestyle related...

<jenna{Victorya}> i think it is a matter of being comfortable with O/ourselves...

<^meow^> oh, i'm definately ^meow^ !!!!

<BernieRoehl> Easily, abi. :-)

<Wolfe^en> agreed KO

<dalian{B}> mine is my r/l secondary name...most ppl i know call me dalian

<cylen> yes they would abi....it is the same name i use for me vanilla email

<Wolfe^en> yes abi

<growl`````> i am definately true to my usual nick

<elbowfetish> Are more women "integrated" than men? More bottoms than tops?

<growl`````> and my friends could spot me a mile away

<Wolfe^en> it IS My last name

<`abi> I can see everyone smiling as they respond to that question....I think maybe our nicks reflect our favourite parts of ourselves

<Wolfe^en> ens' is her initials

<elbowfetish> It can be hard for men to be publicly, 24/7 sub because of role models.

<Kilted_One> _1our names are given at birth by ppl who do not know the person to be.....nicks are selected by the ppl wearing them.....in most cases reflecting what the wearer wants others to see them as_

<tvsubbie4you> good point KO

<MistressAstra> ??how so elbowfetish?

<v_a_silent> my nick is simple - it is my daughters name and one of the two names that my Sir uses on me (angel)

<`abi> how do public role models work against us elbowfetish?

<elbowfetish> RL men are supposed to be dom, women sub.

<cylen> lol

<Wolfe^en> reallllly elbow?

<MistressAstra> not where i come from elbow

<Wolfe^en> check the year on the calendar

<elbowfetish> Yup. Peek into the corporate or suburban world sometime.

<`abi> so if a man is Dom is it easier for him to fully integrate BDSM in his life?

<vixen{KO}> this is nearly the new millenium elbow...

<Kilted_One> _1wrong decade me thinks elbow_

<BernieRoehl> I think elbow means that Dom males have an easier time finding acceptance in the vanilla world than sub males.

<cylen> i can see where you are coming from elbow even though it makes me shudder that people still feel the need to act that way in this day of age...

<elbowfetish> Switch men usually present in public as tops.

<trufriend> for my nick, it is the meaning of my family name "constant and true", and i have always considered myself to be a 'true' friend to people

<Wolfe^en> for a male sub, I would agree

<vixen{KO}> befitting of you, too, tru...<huggerz>

* trufriend smiles at vixen

<trufriend> thank you kind lady

<elbowfetish> Also, topping can be too draining to do it 24/7.

<MistressAstra> subbie of 2yrs, is a sub, but no less of a man to his friends that know, he works 12hr days on a farm,hes no weakling.

<`abi> I wonder if it is harder in fact for submissive women to be open about that in other parts of their lives...does it make them vulnerable?

<Wolfe^en> mind you a female sub? in the 90's?

<elbowfetish> Submissive feminist women are in trouble with their peers too.

<`abi> Does the general public see submissive feminist as an oxymoron?

<vixen{KO}> not really elbow....most submissive sisters i've known are very strong individuals...and many are feminists, too.

<elbowfetish> How do you have a submissive 24/7 feminist, not just a sub play feminist?

* Kilted_One can attest to that having crossed one of them

* elbowfetish gets ready to duck

<Wolfe^en> the relationship is still equal elbow

* vixen{KO} scratches her head and ponders how to make elbow "get" this...

* jenna{Victorya} does not understand feminism..:(

<Wolfe^en> it is a choice...in the 20's it was not a choice

<MistressAstra> thinks elbowfetish should know some of the strongest men she has ever met, were subs, it takes alot of balls to be a male sub.

<elbowfetish> Some people define equal as "the same" rather than contributing differenly.

<Wolfe^en> en says neither does she

<`abi> there are many levels of integration here tonight....does anyone have practical suggestions for disclosing to people...

<elbowfetish> Joke about it.

<jenna{Victorya}> flat out ell them...let them deal with it!

<Wolfe^en> don't impose your choice on others

<trufriend> humour is a good way to 'introduce' something.....sometimes

<jenna{Victorya}> tell..:)

<^meow^> why bother? does it really matter what people think of us or what we choose to do? do we care what THEY do in their homes/bedrooms?

<vixen{KO}> as for U/us....showing the loving bond & commitment that we share is normally enough for people to accept what we do.

<tvsubbie4you> finding an apropriate venue...a warm up topic, if you will

<cyberbrat_> are you equating disclosure to integration, abi?

<trufriend> but not everything can be dealt with on a level of joking, because i feel it takes away some of the validity

* cyberbrat_ rubs her bratty head

<elbowfetish> It's hard to integrate if you're hiding.

<`abi> good question brat....is disclosure necessary for integration?

<jenna{Victorya}> i do not think so...

<cyberbrat_> i was askin' you abi! lol

<`abi> now I'm askin you ;)

<cyberbrat_> i know it's not. i am wonderfully, pleasantly, delightfully integrated as a whole woman and a submissive. i just don't broadcast that fact to everyone.

<`abi> can you live BDSM in all areas of your life without disclosing jenna?

<jenna{Victorya}> i think if there are flok that are going to be apart of your life on a friendship level then it is important to tell them who you are so they may know the real you and you do not have to live behind a mask..

* Kilted_One nods to bratty.....was aboutto say the same lass....why tell if not required....sort of like if it aint broke dont fix it

<`abi> so integration is an internal thing for you brat....it's just who you are...even if people don't know or understand what makes you tick?

<elbowfetish> Say you go to dinner with a co-worker and your master?

<jenna{Victorya}> to a certain extent

<cyberbrat_> that's right abi, and thank you, KO

<della^> exactly KO

<jenna{Victorya}> those who need to know do..:)

<jenna{Victorya}> those that dont..wonder....:)

* jenna{Victorya} giggles

<della^> :)

<Wolfe^en> one day en & I ran into Bernie dwntwn...we stopped & said hello...he had someone with him..we did not talk about s/m related subjects

<Wolfe^en> but we talked

<`abi> is integration part of our growth as human beings?

<BernieRoehl> I remember that, Wolfe^en.

<Wolfe^en> THAT is integration

<cyberbrat_> and You were still a Dom, and Bernie was a still a Dom, and en was still a sub, right Wolfe?

<jenna{Victorya}> i think so....who wants to live behind a wall??

* cyberbrat_ nods and smiles at Wolfe^en and Bernie

<BernieRoehl> Yes -- exactly. I would have felt weird if we'd avoided each other or something strange like that.

<Wolfe^en> yes, but we didn't have music & lights going on about it

<`abi> probably no one jenna...but do we sometimes have to tear down the wall a brick at a time?

<growl`````> yes abi

<Wolfe^en> Bernie, did en see any different or Me for that matter than at a munch? btw the kids were with us

<MistressAstra> i think that only happens when your trying to figure out how a sub ticks abi:)

<jenna{Victorya}> i guess that there may be sometimes that that must be the way it has to be done...i have always just spoke how things were flat out and let the cards fall from there..i don't want to waste anyones time..:)

<BernieRoehl> Not that I recall, Wolfe^en.

<Wolfe^en> that is integration

<Wolfe^en> let people see that we are no different from them

* BernieRoehl agrees with Wolfe^en

* cyberbrat_ nods and nods and nods

<`abi> a perfect summation Wolfe :)

<`abi> does anyone have any specific questions about integrating BDSM that we haven't touched on?

<BernieRoehl> Apparently not, abi. :-)

* cyberbrat_ chuckles

<`abi> lol...so we just stamp it on our foreheads and get on with our lives :)

<BernieRoehl> Sounds good to me, abi. :-)

<cyberbrat_> i think i *do* have 'brat' stamped on my forehead. lol

<`abi> thank you everyone for joining our discussion tonight :)