April 23 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> Well, by my watch it's just now turning 9 pm. Time for our weekly discussion.
<`nika`> she fell on me
<`nika`> yeesh
<`shado> kleenex?
<BernieRoehl> As a matter of fact... yes! :-)
<vixen{KO}> stuffin
* |Karen grins
<vixen{KO}> shhh
<`shado> ah ok :)
* `shado zips lips
<`nika`> ya rite shado
<BernieRoehl> I've just sent an automatic message on the channel that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using raptor.ab.ca.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Doms Helping Doms". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> The topic was suggested quite some time ago, and has just risen to the top of the heap.
<BernieRoehl> Here's the description:
<BernieRoehl> Tonight's topic is "Doms Helping Doms". Many people have observed that submissives in the community will often go out of their way to help and support one another. Is the same thing true for Doms? If not, why not?
<BernieRoehl> And if so, how do Doms offer (and accept) that helP?
* boo-berry is refraining from saying hi and bye until 10:00 pm
* BernieRoehl smiles at boo-berry
<`nika`> mime it boo
<BernieRoehl> So, anyone have any opening thoughts?
* boo-berry waves hi to everyone
<pussycate> lol
* BernieRoehl looks around the room to see if there are any hands going up :-)
<SkyDom> Who picked this topic?
* ^boo raises hand
<SkyDom> K
<`nika`> lol
<Kilted_One> When I was first intro'd to the local scene several ppl helped me..I had no probs with that...and I have tried to reciprocated that back to others and have met no resistance
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, boo
* BernieRoehl nods
<SkyDom> I think she means she picked this topic....
<Calentra> I have another question along the same lines
<BernieRoehl> Back when I was first getting started, a lot of people did help me with advice, guidance and so on. I think (and hope) the same is true today.
<LrdThomas> the only resistance i've encountered has been from online only doms... figures <g>
<^boo> I think it's very important that Dom/me's help each other
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, Calentra
* BernieRoehl smiles and nods in agreement with LT
<Calentra> If a Dom/me were to want to get advice and perhaps real life help, who should a Dom/me go to?
<Kilted_One> ahh you mean the wanna be's??
<Calentra> How would a Dom/me approach another Dom/me for advice
<ont_sub> :)
<Calentra> no, the beginners
<ont_sub> other Dom/mes and subs imho
<ont_sub> we can all help each other
<Calentra> yes, but how would one approach another
<ont_sub> being honest and asking for help
<ont_sub> nothing wrong with that
<BernieRoehl> I think the first step would be for the Dom to be honest with Him/Herself and acknowledge that they need someone's help. For some Do/mmes that's a big hurdle to overcome.
<LrdThomas> by being part of the community thru munches and public venues, one can determine who understands the lifestyle and who plays at it. Once that is determined, a simple approach with a question starts a meaningful dialogue.
<Kilted_One> most of it comes up in regular discussions ya know
<^boo> some Doms don't like to make themselves appear accessible,,to newbies..like they can't be bothered
<`shado> then they are wannabes boo....imo
<^boo> many Doms I found to be very approachable..but some aren't like that.
<BernieRoehl> And some Doms think that seeking help is a form of weakness, and their pride gets in the way.
<Kilted_One> cant say I have noticed that boo, infact I would have to say it is the "old hands" that are less open to taking any form of advice
<ont_sub> i know it does but imho thats crap
<`vixie> that isn't restricted to Dom/mes Bernie
<^boo> is there any www.helpDom.com ?
<ont_sub> i will have more respect for a Dom/me who will ask than for someone who tries to fake it
<BernieRoehl> That's true, vixie.
* vixen{KO} agrees with the BIG pride Bernie spoke of
<^boo> me too ont-sub,,it is a sign of strenght when once recognizes a weakness within themselves
<LrdThomas> i categorically state publically here as i have many times in other venues that i am happy to answer any question any one has reserving the right for discretion involving my personal relationship.
<vixen{KO}> some times it's almost like the old "I'm the Dom/me....and the Dom/me's always right, so i couldn't possibly need any help or advice from anyone!!!"
<ont_sub> I have seen the pride stuff at work and personally i dont see why it would be a sign of weakness to admit they dont know everything and ask for info etc
<Kilted_One> bus some ppl just have a problem with asking for help period, nothing to do with D/s at all
<`vixie> very true vixen
<Jaz^> It is too bad that some Dom will put their pride infront of their ability to learn
<|Karen> I think it's not just pride....but there is some fear involved
<ont_sub> its their loss then .. imho
<|Karen> fear of being laughed at
* `abi wonders how one distinguishes good advice from not so good advice
<canplay> good question abi
<`vixie> mayhap by asking more than one person abi
<BernieRoehl> Good question, abi.
<BernieRoehl> Yes, asking for several opinions and seeing where they agree with each other is a good way to approach it.
* `vixie can't spell tonight
<^boo> your own common sense/instinct ?
<ont_sub> sounds good to me boo
<|Karen> fear of being vulnerable in admitting to needing help....that's pretty darn human
* LrdThomas will ask any question of anybody at any time and really doesn't give a ratsass if anyone thinks i'm more or less dominant because of it. Questions don't make the dom...assimilating info and using it responsibly does.
* BernieRoehl nods
<Kilted_One> I guess you would start by weighing it against the information/experience that you currently ahve abi, and then ask yourself if it ties together???
<`vixie> good idea KO
<canplay> there are many philosphys in D/s O/one must find Their own comfort
<BernieRoehl> That's an important point, canplay. Different Doms have different approaches, so knowing who to seek help from is not just a question of finding people with experience -- it's at least partly a question of finding people with the *right* experience.
* Kilted_One thinks that Thomas has seen the Borg :)
<BernieRoehl> So what sort of help have people here asked for, or been asked for by others?
<Kilted_One> resistance is futile????
* Kilted_One has asked for help on just about every aspect of D/s at one time or another
* BernieRoehl has as well
<|Karen> care to narrow that down to an example or two, gentlemen?
<canplay> i have been helping a new Dom, by just telling Him of the subs view, He also has a Dom friend for the other side
<Calentra> I have asked a friend about flogging, at that point never having held a flogger before
<Kilted_One> wax play bondage, flogging, DM'ing to name a few
<Jaz^> My approach on such matters is to discuss an idea or concern with the Dom/mes I have become friends with through munches, either at munches or privately
<Calentra> I would like to learn much more about bondage technique et al
* vixen{KO} thinks it's everyone's responsibility to give back to others in the community in forms of help, aid and advice.
* BernieRoehl agrees with vixen
* `vixie nods in agreement with vixen
<Calentra> agreed vixen
<Jaz^> good point vixen
<BernieRoehl> When we speak of "help", I can think of several different things (beyond just technical advice).
* `zee{LQ} wonders if the Doms discuss the emotional side of D/s like the submissives do with one another
* |Karen thinks it isn't a responsibility....but something she just _likes_ doing
<`vixie> good question zee!
<ont_sub> also to try to dispell the myth that asking is a weakness for Dom/mes to ask
<BernieRoehl> That's what I'm thinking of, zee
<`zee{LQ}> do You Bernie? and in depth?
<BernieRoehl> I think Doms are perfectly willing to sit around discussing flogging techniques, but less inclined to sit around and share their own personal thoughts and feelings.
<`zee{LQ}> Bernie Sir.. xcuse
<LrdThomas> learning the physical skills is easy...ask a few questions, buy a couple of books, flog a few pillows and you've basically got it...what's more important and more interesting is mental aspects of D/s and how to control behaviour and attitude if that is your want.
<Kilted_One> I dont think you can hold a 24/7 relationship without discussion the emotional side of things zee....infact it takes up the biggest part of the time
<LrdThomas> yes zee... i do anyway.
<`zee{LQ}> agreed Kilted_One Sir though do You discuss those issues with another Dom?
<BernieRoehl> And it's the hardest set of skills to master. As LT says, the physical side can be learned fairly easily... it's everything else (the really important stuff, in my opinion) that takes time.
<|Karen> I'm wondering....do Doms ever consider asking submissives that aren't theirs for advice?
* ^boo waves bye
<|Karen> I see a lot of subs asking Dom friends for advice but rarely the other way around..
<Kilted_One> certainly we do zee
<`zee{LQ}> this one agress wholeheartedly with both LrdThomas Sir and Bernie Sir.. and hopes that Doms do indeen share or turn to one another
* `abi recalls a cup of coffee or two coupled with some discussion
* LrdThomas usually gets advice from other subs whether i want it or not <smirk>
<`abi> lol LT
* BernieRoehl smiles
* `zee{LQ} grins
<ont_sub> :)
<ont_sub> well we can be outspoken at times :)
* `shado is never outspoken :)
* vixen{KO} bites her lip
* Jaz^ couhgs
* canplay would share opinions not advice
* Jaz^ coughs
* `zee{LQ} looks to the ceiling
<Kilted_One> I think that we ask it in a different manner, sort of disguise the discussion a little but I think that is just the way guys are...nothing to do with D/s...I think women discuss emotional things better than men do
* ont_sub gets out the shove :)
<LrdThomas> i had a discussion with a well known experienced dominant as recently as last night face to face about hte emotional aspects and committments of power exchange...so yes it does happen.
<BernieRoehl> Interesting, KO... do people generally agree? Is it more of a male/female issue than a D/s issue?
<`vixie> not neccesarily, sometimes it can be the other way around
<`vixie> i know some guys that discuss emotions better than girls
<`zee{LQ}> LrdThomas Sir..most respectfully.. are the discussions more philosophical rather than personal ones.. i agree with Kilted_One Sir.. in that women are able to discuss on a more personal level easier
<BernieRoehl> I've also had some great discussions on those things, LT. Just not very many of them, and I'm wondering if there's a general reluctance among Doms to discuss feelings
* BernieRoehl considers this
<LrdThomas> zee, this was intensly personal, specific and dealt with emotional issues only.
<BernieRoehl> Come to think of it, most of my really deep discussions about the essence of D/s, the feelings behind it, have been with Dommes -- not Doms. So maybe gender is an issue.
* `zee{LQ} thinks that Doms whom are good friends would find it easier to share in some ways
* canplay thinks Bernie may have a point
<`zee{LQ}> that is great LrdThomas Sir.. i also think that a D/s lifeway invites such discussions more then another
<Kilted_One> would it be fare to say that you have to know someone "personally" to have a personal discussion with them??
<Jaz^> I agree with you zee and I mI'm particular to that angle KO
<BernieRoehl> Speaking for myself, I could only open up about things to someone I felt a close connection to (RL, not online-only)
<`abi> dunno KO ... I think sometimes it's easier to discuss things with someone you don't know so well....less vulnerability
<Calentra> It is the nature of man and woman, woman on average are more outward with their feelings, men tend to retreat to feel their feelings, women tend to find others to help deal with their feelings
<`zee{LQ}> not really Kilted_One Sir.. i have had some very personal and deep talks with another sister that i barely knew... we had a common thread which opened the way for us
<Kilted_One> could that be a major difference in the sexes??
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps, KO.
<`shado> do Dommes find it any easier to discuss things than Doms?
* `zee{LQ} looks to see if there are any Dommes here this evening
<`zee{LQ}> was just wondering that `shado
<`shado> male subs any easier than female subs?
<Kilted_One> I know that I would struggle opening up on a very personal level with someone that I didnt know very well
<BernieRoehl> I count just one, zee (going by caps and assuming gender based on nicks)
<BernieRoehl> One topic that's come up from time to time (and I hesitate to raise it here...) is the idea of mentoring.
<Calentra> <------two
<tee^^> i think one has too look at the background also...if you weren't brought up discussing feelings then it's not any easier once you're an adult
<BernieRoehl> You're the one I was counting, Calentra
<Calentra> ohhhh one ;)
<Calentra> I assumed Karen
* BernieRoehl smiles
* Kilted_One thinks that Karen might be confusing the issue Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Actually, Karen's a sub (despite the cap)
<Calentra> ok then :)
<BernieRoehl> Has anyone here mentored another Dom or Domme?
<|Karen> I keep telling a friend of mine who wants to be a Dom that he should talk to other Doms for advice and possibly mentoring
* |Karen grins and curtsies to Calentra
* |Karen is a quirkier then all heck kind of sub
<BernieRoehl> And if they have, what form did the mentoring take?
* vixen{KO} puts up her hand
<vixen{KO}> ;)
<LrdThomas> Bernie i have
<Kilted_One> ahh you should explain lass that was back in the days of your Domme days
* BernieRoehl looks at vixen, momentarily puzzled, then recalls that she used to Domme
<BernieRoehl> Was it a formal kind of arrangement, LT, or something less structured?
<SkyDom> brb
<|Karen> has anyone ever found that some Doms are simply too shy to ask for advice, that it isn't really about pride so much as shyness?
<LrdThomas> Bernie the mentoring was all about the day to day management of control. Meaning how to exert responsible control and deal with issues such that the submissive felt safe, felt unencumbered and at the smae time submissive.
* Kilted_One was my point earlier Karen, that it may have nothing to do with D/s but the individual
<LrdThomas> it was formal Bernie.
* |Karen nods to KO
* BernieRoehl doesn't know too many really shy Doms (a few, but not many!)
<BernieRoehl> And you both found it worked well, LT?
* Kilted_One nods back to Karen
<LrdThomas> yes Bernie.
<LrdThomas> so did his slave.
* vixen{KO} dons her tux
<BernieRoehl> Anyone else have any mentoring experiences they'd like to share?
* `vixie whistles at vixen ;)
* vixen{KO} thinks Dom/mes should do more....period!!!
<|Karen> Bernie, have you ever mentored another Dom? it seems like a natural extension for you.
* LrdThomas finds it interesting that with all the doms in this room, and a topic of doms helping doms, that only three doms are talking.
<Kilted_One> only on an informal basis....
<BernieRoehl> Nothing as formal as that, Karen. I've given advice when asked, in some cases on an ongoing basis, but mentoring is a big committment (something I don't do quickly or easily).
* BernieRoehl notices the same thing that LT did :-)
<BernieRoehl> Shifting gears a bit for a moment, what about simpler forms of help? For example, one Dom assisting another in a scene?
* |Karen smiles at Bernie and LT 'I'd think it a guy thing but that our only FemDomme is being somewhat quiet'
<Celtic_Man> to me LT and Bernie and KO i have a great respect for and i value what they have to say
<`shado> even quieter since she's left Karen :)
* BernieRoehl smiles
* |Karen laughs, didn't notice :)
<LrdThomas> i don't think it's a guy thing at all, i think it could be that many doms don't seek help.
<Kilted_One> I have helped another with the use of equipment...I have been given help on waxing, sort of another Dom showing me what do and critiquing how I am doing
* Donald_{nat} is a relatively new rl Dom, which is why He's not talking much
<`zee{LQ}> Bernie Sir.. do You mean outside of co-Topping within a scene?
<BernieRoehl> I know some submissives enjoy the attentions of more than one Dom, and double-topping is something I've always enjoyed
* `shado remembers being under the dripping *critique
* vixen{KO} admires Donald_{nat} for saying so inchannel....shows just how wise He is in doing so
<BernieRoehl> I think there's a range of different levels of "joining in" on a scene, with double-topping (or co-topping) being at one end of the spectrum
* `zee{LQ} agrees with vixen{KO}'s comment re Donald_{nat} Sir
<BernieRoehl> Certainly, there are scenes I've done where having another Dom adjust a cuff or pass me a toy was much appreciated
<LrdThomas> but co-topping is not the essence of power exchange and doesn't require a great depth of dom to dom communications. Where doms need help is in significant lasting responsible control of anothers life imo.
<vixen{KO}> agreed, LT
<vixen{KO}> topping is one thing...r/l another
* |Karen likes the _idea_ of two Doms working on her together....:)
* vixen{KO} hoses Karen down
<Jaz^> To me....I watch how a Dom approaches his/her scene, how he/she works it, how he/she is intune with their submissive. If there is something that is of great interest then I will approach the Dom/me after the scene to hopefully ask about it...I'm not big on helping a DOm with a scene unless he/she has asked me to join in.
<Celtic_Man> personly i am learing everyday and the day i say i know it all put me in a rubber room becouse i am nuts and i will ask and seek advice from other Doms and Dommes along the way as i grow and learn
* |Karen grins
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for assisting in the scene, vixen :-)
* BernieRoehl looks closely to see if Karen enjoyed the hosing-down :-)
<Kilted_One> the use of the word "topping' also suggests that there is a lower level of emotional connection...i.e. Master/slave v's Top/bottom
<vixen{KO}> wet t-shirt
<|Karen> but seriously...I tried to have a polyamorous relationship with two Doms in the past. I found it didn't work because they wouldn't talk to each other, work together
* |Karen winks at Bernie
<|Karen> of course I enjoyed it, silly :)
* BernieRoehl smiles
<LrdThomas> watching a scene in a public venue can be enormously misleading. For example, i've done several sensual d/s scenes with sweetone in public. I may choose to do a cold sadistic scene at Lady A's next month. Anyone watching that scene will get the wrong impression of what our relationship is about if they base it only on that night.
<Kilted_One> ohh baby rubber rooms...heyyy Celtic_Man, why should you have all the fun ;)?????
* vixen{KO} *PERKS* rubber????
* Kilted_One nods in agreement with LT
* `vixie hoses vixen off ;)
<|Karen> it could have been just those two individual Doms didn't want to help each other...but I've heard it several times since from other subs on mailing lists, and from several Doms....that that kind of working together....just isn't normal or common
<Jaz^> Good point LT, yet I would hope that anyone would approach you about your scene.
<BernieRoehl> True enough, LT. And I know that some newbies have been quite startled by the intensity that they see in some scenes.
* `zee{LQ} grins at Celtic_Man typo.. I am learing all day...lol
<Jaz^> And ask you your perspective towards such ascene
<vixen{KO}> ;)
* BernieRoehl smiles and enjoys all the hosing-down :-)
* kashina- looks at Bernie and winks
<`vixie> lol Bernie
* LrdThomas laughs...one would hope Jaz...but the cynic in me knows they won't.
<|Karen> one real life Dom that I respect a fair bit told me flat out that one can not serve two Masters.
<Jaz^> I guess that happens with newbies possibly because they go to an event such as a play party with various set ideas. I did at first. then I opened up and looked around at all that was around me.
* vixen{KO} has also heard that Karen
* Kilted_One puts up his hand and admits that "KO" said it to vixen too ;)
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> So we've talked about a few different forms of "Doms helping Doms"
<BernieRoehl> In-scene assistance, technical guidance, mentoring, and advice on how to maintain a D/s relationship in the long term.
<Kilted_One> there is a huge difference between having two tops or two Doms and two Masters imo....and I beleive you cannot serve two Masters at the same time....one will conflict with the other
<BernieRoehl> Are there any areas we've missed?
* BernieRoehl agrees with KO... when it comes to power exchange, it's hard to divide a submissive's attention and nobody will really be satisfied
<vixen{KO}> observance of other Dom/mes' subs' reactions that the Dom/me may not be aware of?
* vixen{KO} scratches her head knowing that probably didn't come out right.
* BernieRoehl also agrees that topping is a different story, and that double-topping can work well
<`zee{LQ}> i understood what you said vixen{KO}
<BernieRoehl> Can you expand on that, vixen?
<Kilted_One> you mean as another set of eyes vixen??
* LrdThomas would be happy to discuss co-Mastering of one slave at another discussion. It can work.
* BernieRoehl looks at LT, smiles, and raises a slightly skeptical eyebrow
* |Karen raises an eyebrow 'that would be an interesting discussion,LT'
<BernieRoehl> It certainly would
* LrdThomas shrugs
* Kilted_One thinks that LT just talked himselve into hosting a discussion me thinks ;)
<vixen{KO}> yes, as another view point....maybe another Dom/me may recognize a kind of reaction/sensation/response that the owner(for lack of different word on the spur of the moment) can perceive
<`vixie> like body clues vixen?
<vixen{KO}> yes....and even emotional ones...
<Kilted_One> that is very true vixen, there are a lot of things going on during a scene and another set of eyes and ears could come in "handy"
<BernieRoehl> True. And occasionally, another pair of hands to go with the eyes :-)
<vixen{KO}> but not just in a scene, either....even in how they interact with others in the community...
<BernieRoehl> Yes, that's true vixen
<LrdThomas> they can also interfere enormously when the 'assistant' doesn't know what the primary top is trying to accomplish.
<Jaz^> Indeed LT...
<BernieRoehl> Where possible, I think it's best for the two tops to discuss beforehand what they have in mind for the scene, the general "arc" of it so to speak
<SkyDom> electrical play?
* vixen{KO} *PERKS* again.....sparks????
<Jaz^> Yet by conversing with other Dom's beforehand should solve that
<Kilted_One> wand is still broken lass dont get too wet...YET lol
<vixen{KO}> yes, Master...
* vixen{KO} sighs
* |Karen grins and returns vixen's earlier favour by hosing her down
* BernieRoehl smiles "not that kind of arc" :-)
<Kilted_One> lol
<`shado> wouldn't Dom/mes comversing beforehand constitute communicating :)
<`zee{LQ}> i would think that one of the important things to discuss is the limits of the secondary Dom within a scene.. for how would You stop if the other Dom began something that was not within the agreed limits with you and Your slave
* BernieRoehl notices subs helping subs, too! :-)
<vixen{KO}> subs always help subs....it's the law of subland
<`vixie> gee, and i thought we were doing it cuz we're all kind
* vixen{KO} huggles Karen wif her wet t-shirt
* |Karen grins
<BernieRoehl> Excellent point, zee. There should be some sort of "safe signal" (analogous to a safeword) between the tops. Usually eye contact and/or a quick gesture is enough.
<vixen{KO}> that too, vixie
<Kilted_One> that would be relatively easy zee....you gently get the attention of the other and discuss the limits
<`zee{LQ}> i enjoy being asked to help in a scene for it is all new to me from the other side of the coin and new experiences mean learning and growing
<LrdThomas> thank you for the discussion Bernie, enjoy the evening friends, and happy Easter all :)
<vixen{KO}> communication is always paramount in this lifestyle....no matter subs or Dom/mes
<BernieRoehl> Well, by my watch we're just about out of time.
<`zee{LQ}> though Kilted_One Sir.. to discuss the limits in the middle of the scene would be distracting and break the flow wouldn't it?
<BernieRoehl> Let's wrap up the formal part of the discussion here, and continue chatting informally.
<`zee{LQ}> Happy Easter LrdThomas Sir and to Your one
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated tonight!
<Kilted_One> yes exacly..if limits have been exceeded that is what is required dont you think?
<tvsubbie4you> now that i won't be interrupting..hello everyone :)
* |Karen curtsies graciously to Bernie 'thank you for moderating tonight'
<BernieRoehl> My pleasure, Karen.
<BernieRoehl> You're on for next week, yes?
<SkyDom> I love it when she does that
<Kilted_One> tanks Bernie, good job