April 16 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
Session Start: Sun Apr 16 20:56:34 2000
<bottoms_up{RD}> ok peoples... the discussion is about to begin.. the topic tonight is "Why does a submissive obey their Master/Mistress?"
* little^kitten{AF} looks to see if alora is sitting comfy like....
<little^kitten{AF}> are ya sis?
<alora{AF}> i guess
* little^kitten{AF} curls up in alora's lap
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles.... i am curious as to the answer on this question.
<alora{AF}> aww...pets the kitty
<^vixie> methinks you may want to ask that question again b/u
<little^kitten{AF}> hi canplay, |Karen
<bottoms_up{RD}> looks like it eh vixie? lol
<alora{AF}> me too, bottoms_up{RD}...still figuring out how to do that
<little^kitten{AF}> we'll find out when the discussion begins..
<`nika`> question ?
<bottoms_up{RD}> you dont obey Al, alora?
* alora{AF} looks at Al...not that i don't try
<bottoms_up{RD}> nika... we are having a discussion tonight adn the Topic is "why does a submissive obey their Master/Mistress?"
<`nika`> tks bu
<bottoms_up{RD}> so why do you try alora? *Smiles*
<alora{AF}> tell ya what...when i figure that one out...i'll let ya know! ~lol~
<^vixie> i think it comes from a desire to please the other person, show them how you treasure the gift you have shared
* ^vixie shrugs
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol.. thats why i am asking.. i have been driving people crazy lately with the question ;))
* `nika` chuckles
<`nika`> so what else is new, bottoms_up{RD}?
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol nika
<bottoms_up{RD}> vixie, and if they show they are not pleased.. how do you feel?
<|Karen> when I'm in that kind of relationship....I obey because I damn well want to
<^vixie> disappointed
<Sweetone{LT}> it is about control...the sub doesn't want it...by obeying she is living the power exchange.
<^vixie> and i look for why they are not pleased
* dalian agrees with Karen
<|Karen> I get off on submitting. it makes _me_ happy
* bottoms_up{RD} grins to Karen... you dont do it because you are supposed to?
<^vixie> i do it as a combination of wanting to, and being asked to
<little^kitten{AF}> i tend to agree with Sweetone{LT}...
<little^kitten{AF}> i don't want the control... i like not having it
<bottoms_up{RD}> Sweetone, you mean she makes a choice each time to obey.. because of the agreed upon exchange she obeys.. even if she doesnt want to?
<^vixie> i agree kitten about the control
<dalian> i want the control.....by my submission it pleases another which in turn brings pleasure to me
<|Karen> if I did all the things I'm 'supposed to' ....I'd still be virginal and living with my parents til marriage
<Sweetone{LT}> yes, it is not about convenience
<alora{AF}> control isn't something that i consciously think about in my relationship
<bottoms_up{RD}> vixie, so is not wanting to see the disappointment drive you to obey?
<bottoms_up{RD}> what about when it is something you dont like to do, alora?
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol Karen
<^vixie> yes and no b/u....it can play a factor in the decision making, *shrugs* hard to explain
<alora{AF}> i tell him i don't want to do it
<little^kitten{AF}> i know that Master won't ask or order anything of me that i can't do or am not capable of doing
<bottoms_up{RD}> try vixie.. i am truly wanting to understand *smiles*
<^vixie> i know you are b/u and i'm trying to figure out how to say it
<bottoms_up{RD}> kitten, what if it is something you dont want to do?
<PanheadAL> i know both girls limits and what they will and wont do and i will not cross that most of the time
* bottoms_up{RD} huggles vixie.. well keep working at it *hehe*
<canplay> i believe it is out of total respect for One
<bottoms_up{RD}> Karen, dont you think it is selfish to obey only when you want to?
<^vixie> if it was something i truly didn't want to do, but i knew it would please my Master i would seriously attempt it, if it wasn't one of my hard limits, because sharing is an important part of that kind of relationship
<little^kitten{AF}> i try it anyway... i will always *try*.. becasue Master has asked and thinks me capable..
<^vixie> that make sense b/u?
<TheWolfe> if you don't want to do it, then you make a decision. obey, say yellow or say red
<Sweetone{LT}> but then who is in control Wolfe?
* `nika` thot the question was *WHY* does a submissive submit
<`nika`> not IF they will or NOT
* ^vixie is starting to get confuzzled now
<TheWolfe> in control of what
<bottoms_up{RD}> yup vixie.. it does .. do you feel comfortable in saying no or red for something you dont want to do?
<|Karen> I try not to be selfish...I submit even when I don't really want to in that moment....because I get off on the struggle to make myself obey....even, and sometimes...especially....when it's hardest
<^vixie> yes i do b/u, because i know my gift is respected and honoured, as it would be if i wanted something the Dom did not
<Sweetone{LT}> the relationship...if the sub can get out of doing something they don't want to obey, by saying a safeword, who has control?
<bottoms_up{RD}> so obeying is sort of a challenge sometimes.. like climbing Mt Everest?
<dalian> as a slave i would do as asked without reservation...i have chosen to submit as a slave...the only time i would perhaps question is when a hard limit has been approached or my safety in question
<TheWolfe> if one complies with everything then that person is making that choice, therefore they are in control
<Sweetone{LT}> there are times a Master will ask his charge to do something he knows is difficult to make her feel her submission...he knows she is capable
<^vixie> very true Sweetone{LT}
* |Karen grins 'it's kinda like being a mental/emotional masochist....the harder it is, the more of a challenge...the more exciting it is'
<bottoms_up{RD}> dalian, why obey though? just because you said you would? what goes through your mind when asked to do something you dont want to?
* `nika` submits without reservation because she *chooses* to submit to the One she has given control over to......
<little^kitten{AF}> and Master would never ask or order anything of me that would endanger me or would compromise my limits
<|Karen> which isn't to say that a peaceful sense of quiet obediance doesn't have it's own joys'
<`nika`> oh bottoms_up{RD}.. thats they fun part.. what goes thru your mind... <G>
<dalian> i look at the request as a challenge that i need to meet, albeit slowly at first
<bottoms_up{RD}> and nika.. what does go through your mind..i am trying to understand that ;))
* alora{AF} doesn't think it's about 'wanting' to do it...one can want to do something, yet still not be able to obey
<TheWolfe> that would become tiresome and somewhat boring because it would become predictable
* ^vixie smiles
* little^kitten{AF} agrees with alora
<TheWolfe> agreed alora{AF}
<`nika`> if its something i'm not used to... then it quickly runs thru.. what do i do..how do i do.. and then.. just DO IT
<`nika`> if the thought process isn't fast... i know the consequences ;-))))
* alora{AF} falters at the 'just do it' stage
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol nika
<^vixie> lots of thoughts go through my head.....am i pleasing Him, am i doing exactly as i'm told, my gawd that hurt!, i hope that i am bringing Him as much enjoyment as He is bringing me, ow!, lol
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol vix
<`nika`> depends if'n yer with a sadistic Master or not alora{AF} <GRIN>
<TheWolfe> My reference was to complete blind obedience...regarding it becoming too predictable
<`nika`> not necessarily TheWolfe
* bottoms_up{RD} smile to TW, do you think blind obedience from the sub is boring then? do you want them to 'fight' now and again?
* alora{AF} 's Master isn't sadisitc
<^vixie> that's why i like time to contemplate what is ahead of me, before a scene really starts...it allows me to clear my head and prepare myself for what i am about to do....make sense b/u?
<dalian> it cannot be blind...there is always contemplation...mental arguement...etc
<`nika`> if He makes a request He knows will cause me... to have the thought process.. He likes to watch what runs thru my mind...
<canplay> i think blind obedience would become a bore Wolfe
<bottoms_up{RD}> to put yourself in the headspace of the power exchange, vixie?
<`nika`> cuz all my thoughts cross my face... and that amuses Him
<canplay> agrees with nika
<^vixie> yes, exactly...it allows me to settle all my thoughts on what i am about to do, how i will be showing my submission, and just 'bracing' myself
<bottoms_up{RD}> dalian, do you think over a period of time..sorta like being in the army/basic training..you just 'obey' without thought?
<`nika`> He knows i'll obey... just wonders how long it'll take me on some things...
* ^vixie nods
<^vixie> true `nika`
<bottoms_up{RD}> bracing yourself for what vix?
<^vixie> just for things i'm about to do, especially if they are new, or difficult
* `nika` nods
* bottoms_up{RD} grins to nika... him seeing the expressions adds an element to your obedience ;)
<^vixie> like when i was at the cafe...i had to brace myself for public play, as i had never done it before
<dalian> i dont think i could ever get to that stage...a relationship is always evolving...if it does not the stagnation perhaps may create the "obey without thought" mindset
<`nika`> ayup it can do, bottoms_up{RD}
<TheWolfe> it is not a question of fighting bottoms_up{RD}, it is a matter of common sense
<TheWolfe> of reality
<`nika`> and also.. the request may change a wee tad to make it varying for Him too...
* lil^bear^ sneaks in
<bottoms_up{RD}> so it is common sense to disobey your Master now and again.. as real life has a different agenda?
<`nika`> nix
<TheWolfe> if the situation requires it
<Sweetone{LT}> no bottoms...
<bottoms_up{RD}> hmmmm interesting..different views ;)
<^vixie> i don't think i'd ever go out of my way to disobey
<`nika`> if'n i have a question about something, i can call time out for clarification of it...
<TheWolfe> example: go to the store and get Me cigarettes
<Sweetone{LT}> the sub has chosen to give control...by purposely disobeying the sub is trying to take that control back...what is the purpose of that?
<TheWolfe> you head to the store but the road is blocked by powerlines
<TheWolfe> do you head cross country to get them?
<little^kitten{AF}> that isn't a situation that you can control TW
<bottoms_up{RD}> Sweetone, what if it is something you dont want to do?
<^vixie> exactly kitten
<little^kitten{AF}> it's an extenuating circumstance
<Sweetone{LT}> that is not disobedience Wolfe....
<^vixie> b/u that's when you call your red/safeword
<TheWolfe> none what soever but if you don't get them you have not obeyed in some peoples minds
<`nika`> depends WHY you dont want to do it
<bottoms_up{RD}> but say its not a limit.. just today you are in a grumpy mood and just arent in the mood to do it.. why do you obey then?
<TheWolfe> it isn't Sweetone{LT}?
* `nika` doesnt like the *dont want to do it* phraseology
<`nika`> because you wish to, buRD
<bottoms_up{RD}> why nika?
<`nika`> you've chosen to submit to His will... His power,.. His control...
<TheWolfe> commitment bottoms_up{RD}
<`nika`> the phrase *dont want to do it* implies a selfishness on the sub's part
* ^vixie nods in agreement with `nika`
<Sweetone{LT}> because there are roadblocks in the way that are r/l, those must be taken into consideration by the Master
<bottoms_up{RD}> and a sub isnt allowed to be selfish?
<`nika`> oh of course... *more please Sir* is the phrase then
* `nika` chuckles
<^vixie> lol
<bottoms_up{RD}> ahhh commitment... i like that reasoning TW ;)
* alora{AF} thinks all peaople need to be a little selfish at times...to stay sane
<little^kitten{AF}> there are thimes when all ppl need to be self directed
<Sweetone{LT}> there must be realistic expectations of the sub by the Master
<bottoms_up{RD}> so if you are in a selfish mood and it doesnt cross your limits.. you obey because you said you would?
<`nika`> yes
<little^kitten{AF}> but you can be self directed and still obey the Master/Mistress
<`nika`> not even because i *said i would
<bottoms_up{RD}> it isnt fear of disappointing the Master/Mistress?
<`nika`> but because i choose to have a Dominant/submissive relationship with Him
<`nika`> more fear of disappointing myself
<`zee{LQ}> agree sweetone{LT} and vice versa.. realistic expectations of the Master by the sub/slave too!
<Panache> some Doms/Dommes expect the sub/slave to have minds of their own and use them
<Sweetone{LT}> yes!!
<^vixie> very true Panache!!
<bottoms_up{RD}> how would it do that, nika?
<TheWolfe> good point Panache
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles to Panache ;)
<`nika`> if i choose to submit my will to Him.. and then become selfish by saying NO i wont do that... i've disappointed myself
<bottoms_up{RD}> does a Master/Mistress enjoy the times the sub has a problem obeying?
<Sweetone{LT}> perhaps we should work on changing that from some to all doms?? <g>
<bottoms_up{RD}> hehe Sweetone ;)
<Panache> cant speak for all
<Sweetone{LT}> lol
<`zee{LQ}> good one sweetone!
<bottoms_up{RD}> so a Master/Mistress doesnt expect obedience all the time?
<^vixie> i have no idea on that question b/u
* `nika` presumes they do
<`zee{LQ}> having a problem obeying is a sign of growth for B/both,. i would hope that if the disobeying is because of a problem or non-comfort level.. the Dom/me would enjoy the chance to address that
<TheWolfe> yes
<Sweetone{LT}> the dom must examine why the disobedience
<bottoms_up{RD}> ohh i like that zee ;)
<TheWolfe> I enjoy it when there is some
<TheWolfe> with obeying
<TheWolfe> struggle
<bottoms_up{RD}> i was told by some.. i obey because i am submissive, that is my nature... i obey to please my Master.
<TheWolfe> disjointed lol
<`zee{LQ}> they can expect obedieance but remember that obedience doesn't only mean accomplishing what was asked.. just trying is good too!
<`nika`> :-)
<Panache> I would like the sub to feel safe enough to say whatever he feels. If he doesnt feel safe, there is no relationship
<Sweetone{LT}> good point zee!!
* bottoms_up{RD} obeys my Master to get what i want.. if i disobey i dont get what i want.... its that simple to me
<`abi> I would expect that a Master/Mistress has a right to expect that compliance will be attempted ... but perhaps understand that it may not always be possible
* lil^bear^ looks to bottoms_up{RD}
<`zee{LQ}> Master asked me to do this one thing by myself.. i knew i would have a hard time..i had two choices.. not to do it at all.. or try and relate to him my feelings and difficulty
* bottoms_up{RD} looks back and bear ;)
<PanheadAL> i understand that kitten and alora may not be able to do what is asked of them at times
<TheWolfe> obey means to carry out orders
<lil^bear^> isnt that selfish bottoms_up{RD}?
<little^kitten{AF}> buy because i am not able to at the time dosen't mean i won't try
<little^kitten{AF}> it takes time to do some things
<PanheadAL> i know that kitten
<TheWolfe> disobey means to refuse or fail to obey
<Panache> I feel a Dom/Domme's responsibility is to care about and for the other person. If a sub doenst feel s/he can dp as asked, I would assume there is a reason and discuss it
<`zee{LQ}> Master did not see it as a failure on my part at all..rather He said..like trying to ride a bike with the training wheels off.. you dont usually get it on the first try
<bottoms_up{RD}> yup bear.. thats why i am interested in learning why others obey.
<little^kitten{AF}> but i will always TRY because that is all Master asks...
<^vixie> very true zee!
<little^kitten{AF}> that i try,,
<little^kitten{AF}> right Sir?
<`abi> I've had the habit of not trying to do things that I'm not sure I can do well...I have learned that perhaps that isn't a good enough reason not to give my best
<TheWolfe> a request is not the same as an order
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles to abi ;)
* `zee{LQ} nods to TheWolfe Sir
<Panache> very true Wolfe, I guess I do more requests than orders
<bottoms_up{RD}> what does a submissive get out of obeying or complying with requests?
<`zee{LQ}> i know where you are coming from abi.. it is hard to try knowing that you won't accomplish something the way your Master hopes you will or get out of it what He hopes you will
<`nika`> satisfaction
<`nika`> to have obeyed.. to have pleased....
<^vixie> i get the satisfaction of knowing i have done something which was asked of me, and the knowledge that i have pleased the Dom
<PanheadAL> that sounds like you alora
<^vixie> and in turn i get pleasure from pleasing
* ^vixie shrugs
<alora{AF}> ~shrugs~
<little^kitten{AF}> as long as i do my best.. how ever far i can get in a task ordered/asked of me... that is enough to make Master proud.. i may end up more dissapointed in myself than Master is of me... cause i want to be able to do more
* `abi nods to zee
<Trainer> First of all gang....( putting my 2 cents worth in) ...there are different submissives types. Some are RL slaves, and some are merely submissive
<bottoms_up{RD}> what is the difference Trainer? *smiles*
<`zee{LQ}> i receive the sign of pleasing my Master, nothing greater then His smile or His pride in me
<Sweetone{LT}> there is no rush to do everything all at once or be perfect at it right away...it is a journey...
<TheWolfe> but you digress Trainer *smile*
* lil^bear^ smiles
<`nika`> such a friendly place..all this smiling
<Sweetone{LT}> yes, please let us know the difference
<canplay> merely submissive???
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol canplay
<TheWolfe> here we go....
* `nika` watches the guillotine being built...
<candie```> lol
* ^vixie places the basket by the blade
<TheWolfe> pissing contest about to begin
<lil^bear^> pissing contest???
* `nika` perks.. WATERSPORTS?
<TheWolfe> lol
<lil^bear^> ROFLMAO
<^vixie> lol
<lil^bear^> bet I win
<lil^bear^> lol
<bottoms_up{RD}> is the drive to please the only thing that makes a submissive obey?
<^vixie> and the question again was?
<SirDavid> gets his skis out
<`nika`> no catheters allowed...
<`nika`> thats cheatin
* lil^bear^ looks HEY its GONE
<bottoms_up{RD}> does a threat of punishment ever drive a sub to obey?
<TheWolfe> to avoid punishment is another reason
<little^kitten{AF}> yes
<`nika`> okee its gone... good girl
<^vixie> no, it's part of it b/u, but i have a need to obey a Master...it's part of me, and i get pleasure from pleasing
* bottoms_up{RD} smile to TW
* alora{AF} doesn't feel a 'drive to please' most of the time...
<Trainer> The difference between a sub and a slave is that a sub is submissive for her own plaeaure, a slaves sole purpose is to please and obey her Master / mistress
* little^kitten{AF} would do anything not to have black death meet her ass
<TheWolfe> thank you Trainer
<Sweetone{LT}> ????
<`nika`> it is?
<canplay> good thing W/we are not here to discuss that issue Trainer
<`nika`> well dang.. here i thot i was a submissive.. yeesh...
<Sweetone{LT}> yup
* canplay grins
<TheWolfe> everyone just smile and say thank you Trainer
<`nika`> now i gotta buy the slave training handbook...dang
<^vixie> me too `nika`
* `nika` smirks... THANK YOU TRAINER
<`zee{LQ}> yes TheWolfe Sir.. just knowing there is always a correction is drive enough
* ^vixie pulls out her penny jar and starts counting
<lil^bear^> i dunno i think.,if you tell a sub to go wash the kitchen floor she goes and washes the fllor..if you tell a slave to go do that..she does that..and cleans the whole kitchen in anticipation of her Masters needs
<`nika`> mebbe we can order a lot of em on discount vixie
<^vixie> i'm the kinda person who'd clean the whole kitchen and reorganize the cupboards, lol
<^vixie> lol, ya think nika?
* `nika` looks at bottoms_up{RD}
<bottoms_up{RD}> so does the fear of punishment is always hanging over your head as a sub?
<Sweetone{LT}> no
<lil^bear^> me too vixie lol
<^vixie> no
<Trainer> The reason I am bringing it up is that theer is a different reason for their obedience
<`nika`> sometimes ya git in truble for doing too much
* dalian never fears punishment
<`zee{LQ}> i have never been punished... corrected yes, but is is never the prevailing force behind my wish to serve
<^vixie> i'd rather get in trouble for doing too much, than not enuf
<lil^bear^> ya mean ya can do too much??? well damn why didnt some wone tell met hat
* lil^bear^ looks at her speeling thinks too mabny dgrugs
<`nika`> ya gotta do just what they TELL ya...
* ^vixie hugs bear
<lil^bear^> complete and obsoluete obedience?
<^vixie> i have been corrected as well, and never feared the punishment, hated it yes, but not feared it
<^vixie> methinks i need a grammer lesson
* `nika` goes off to order the slave's training handbook... one fer her..one fer vixie.... *g*
<bottoms_up{RD}> so if you obey because it brings you pleasure and it gets you want you want.. are you being submissive?
<TheWolfe> well, in that case trainer, there are many different types of submissives here. that ALL have their own reason to obey or not
<Sweetone{LT}> Trainer, a sub does not want control...by obeying she is living the power exchange
<TheWolfe> more than two types and two reasons
<bottoms_up{RD}> thats what i am thinking TW also
<Sweetone{LT}> there are submissive types and dominant types...and varying degrees of power exchange
<^vixie> true Sweetone{LT}
<bottoms_up{RD}> not the difference between sub and slave.. just two types of submissives
<little^kitten{AF}> i have been many times ready to recive a punishment cause i thought i had deserved it once i was corrected... then Master had to convince me one wasn't nesscesary
<LadyDomi> and the discussion of sub vs slave never yields a "final answer" -- it is subject to individual opinion...
<Panache> seems to me there are as many reasons for subs to be subs and slaves to be slaves and Dom/Dommes to be dom as there are people
<LadyDomi> ^5 Panache
<bottoms_up{RD}> if a submissive obeys because it brings them what they want, it pleases them and they get what they want out of the relationship... not just to please the Master/Mistress... are they still submissive?
<Sweetone{LT}> the terms sub or slave is irrelevant outside the relationship
<^vixie> it depends on your personal philosophy of the term submission b/u
<^vixie> if that statement fits it, then yes
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles brightly to vix ... and if it fits your Dominants view also ;)
<TheWolfe> yes bottoms_up{RD}
<^vixie> true b/u :)
<`zee{LQ}> when we give our souls.. when we give that control to our Masters.. it is a given on both sides that obeying will always be there..it satisfies both needs
* lil^bear^ smiles if bear wasnt so sick and so tired she would be throwing a tonne of her two cents uin...areny you all lucky she sick,. and quiet for a change..~settles back to read some more~
<dalian> a sub/slave obviously wants some control in varying degrees otherwise their submission would be redundant
<`abi> I think the desire to obey is related to need....the cause of the need may differ from person to person....but the need is somehow fulfilled by the act of obedience
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol bear ;)
<^vixie> i agree abi :)
<TheWolfe> if a sub solely gets enjoyment out of pleasing their Master, then....they are getting what they want out of the relationship....they are submissive
<alora{AF}> a need for wht, abi?
<alora{AF}> what
<`abi> as I said alora....different needs for different people...the commonality is the fulfillment through obedience
<`zee{LQ}> agree abi
<little^kitten{AF}> but as we are submissive in the relationship we are also rewarded in other ways for pleasing our Masters
<bottoms_up{RD}> what do you think works best on a sub... a reward system or a threat of punishment.. to make them obey? *knowing whats to come*
<bottoms_up{RD}> hehe
<^vixie> true kitten
<`zee{LQ}> as is our Masters and Mistresses rewarded.. within our obedience and with the mutual pleasure and pride
<^vixie> methinks reward system
<little^kitten{AF}> bottoms.. i find that both working hand in hand are good
<TheWolfe> I think we established that most want to obey
<^vixie> even a simple one of being told how much the obedience meant to the Dom
<little^kitten{AF}> that they do work together..
<`zee{LQ}> reward of course.. though the rewards may be different for different people
<bottoms_up{RD}> i am still struggling with why they want to obey *sigh*
<little^kitten{AF}> if there is no punishment there is no comparison to the rewards
<dalian> but does a submissive think in terms of receiving rewards for their submission?
<TheWolfe> what part are you having trouble with bottoms_up{RD}
<dalian> do they actively seek them?
<bottoms_up{RD}> if they think of rewards for submission... are they being selfish dalian?
<Sweetone{LT}> the relationship is for mutual pleasure and fulfillment
<TheWolfe> submissives can be selfish
<lil^bear^> be well rest is yelling in my ear
<`zee{LQ}> i always seek to please Master.. a smile or nod knowing that i have done good work
<bottoms_up{RD}> TW, i think it is the two basic types of subs... some want to obey to please their Master/Mistress and some want to obey because it gives them what they want
<dalian> but is the smile acknowledement or a reward?
<Sweetone{LT}> so yes, you could say both are selfish in fulfilling their needs, but are also giving to the other at the same time
<TheWolfe> agreed Sweetone{LT}
<little^kitten{AF}> all relationships are give and take
<concubinary> for me the smile is positive reinforcement, makes me want that smile more.
<TheWolfe> nothing wrong with that at all
<^vixie> true concubinary :)
<`zee{LQ}> though at times Master has simply passed over something i have done..not commented on it either way.. i have to be happy with simply knowing that i did it... and not to fish for that stroke all the time
<bottoms_up{RD}> so you try to do what is asked of you concubinary... seeking another smile?
<TheWolfe> bottoms_up{RD}...it is not that simple
<TheWolfe> re: 2 types of subs
<`abi> bottoms...I'm thinking for your first basic type...pleasing their Master/Mistress *does* give them what they want
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles to TW... thats why i am confused ;)
<TheWolfe> so, bottoms_up{RD}, which type is en
<concubinary> i've know two types of submissives: Those that improve from negative attention and those that improve from positive reenforcement.
<bottoms_up{RD}> and what do you want, abi?
<TheWolfe> based on your model
<`abi> all of it bottoms ;)
<GG-man> greets the ops and acknowledges the room
<bottoms_up{RD}> i dont say who is what.. i am trying to figure out why in the first place... it seems i get two variables of those answers TW
<`zee{LQ}> is it wrong to always expect a reward for obeying?
<bottoms_up{RD}> is it selfish zee?
<TheWolfe> but you said there are 2 types
<`zee{LQ}> not selfish... i dpm
<bottoms_up{RD}> 2 types in answer i get from subs TW..up to this point
<TheWolfe> you are stuck on "selfish" and there is no "selfless" submissive
<`zee{LQ}> i don't think that is the word.. maybe looking for reinforcement or strokes all the time
* `zee{LQ} doesn't mean those kind of strokes either..
<Sweetone{LT}> i think there is only one type of submissive...the one who submits.
* bottoms_up{RD} nods to TW... could be
<Sweetone{LT}> <g>
<TheWolfe> lol
<concubinary> lol Sweetone!
<`zee{LQ}> right sweetone
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles to Sweetone
<BLiSs101> then what do you call the rest of us sweetone?
<bottoms_up{RD}> does it matter to the Dom why they submit.. is it a question you ask of a new sub when 'interviewing or hunting'?
<concubinary> all i meant was that some people seem to improve their behavior from getting punished while others seem to thrive on positive feedback for deeds done right.
<TheWolfe> mind you, your definition of submit may be different than most
* BLiSs101 nods
<`zee{LQ}> what would be the question bottoms_up{RD}?? ' do you submit..or do you like to obey?
* ^vixie submits
<TheWolfe> circles
<bottoms_up{RD}> i dont know zee ... lol
<^vixie> and within my submission is the knowledge that i will be obeying
* `zee{LQ} laughs
<TheWolfe> *smile* we are going in circles
<Sweetone{LT}> if you engage in any type of power exchange, be it in the bedroom for 15 min or just calling your lover Master once a day, or full tpe...you are submitting....
* ^vixie falls over dizzy ;)
<bottoms_up{RD}> yup TW, where i go... but i tend to get two different thoughts from subs... i submit to please my Master is one, i submit to get what i want is another.. the last one i was told is selfish
* little^kitten{AF} catches vix and fans her face
<`zee{LQ}> why do the Masters and Mistresses feel we obey?
<BLiSs101> yes but if the submission is fleeting, how can one say they are a submissive? thats like calling urself a song writer if u only wrote one chord
<little^kitten{AF}> that's one i'd like to hear...
<Sweetone{LT}> why?
<TheWolfe> if what you want is to please your Master than the answer is the same!
<little^kitten{AF}> what do the Dom/mes think our motivation is?
<TheWolfe> it is what you want
* BLiSs101 wonders what ann raynd would have to say about being selfish
<Trainer> ZEE...I know why the subs submit...so that they can blame us when things get screwed up ROFL
* `zee{LQ} smiles to Trainer
<bottoms_up{RD}> sure i want to please my Master, but i wanted to please my ex hubby but i wasnt submissive to him.. every partner wants to please their partner..whats the difference?
<Opal``> gee...i wonder how much truth there is to that Trainer
* `zee{LQ} seals her lips to refrain from a comment
<BLiSs101> thats caled love b/u
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol Trainer ;)
<bottoms_up{RD}> so is love and submission the same Bliss? both times you want to please your partner
<BLiSs101> of course not
<TheWolfe> the topic is...????
<Sweetone{LT}> because you have choosen by informed consent to give control to someone else...you then obey
<`zee{LQ}> Trainer Sir.. seriously what do You get out of a submissive obeying You?
* BLiSs101 mumbles something about *obey* being a four letter word
<bottoms_up{RD}> zee, that even more off topic *smiles*
<`zee{LQ}> exactly sweetone{LT}
<Trainer> I am the mirror image of my slave...I was born to be a Master and she a slave.
<`zee{LQ}> oh sorry bottoms_up{RD}
* BLiSs101 groans
<concubinary> Well, it's an incredible close feeling to trust enough to obey.
* bottoms_up{RD} grins... i guess i still have some type of mental block or misunderstanding on this issue..and need more time to work it out *Grin*
<Trainer> I have always had fantasies of owning a slave, just as she has always had fantasies of being one
<`zee{LQ}> trusting is key to obeying especially if the area is a boundary or a new concept
<TheWolfe> Trainer, do you know Charlie?
<Trainer> Who is Charlie ...is he in London ?
<TheWolfe> Manson..he uses the same analogy
<BLiSs101> lol Wolfe
<^vixie> lol TW
<TheWolfe> *smile* sorry
<Sweetone{LT}> lol
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles.... it seems one submits for their own reasons.. and its just a matter of finding a Master or Mistress who has the same beliefs
<concubinary> We played for a minute (literally) with a knife yesterday and the trust i felt at obeying and being submissive was incredible. it was bonding and always is at least in my current relationship. It hasn't been the case that all my D/s relationships turned out well when i obeyed.
<`zee{LQ}> are there degrees of obeying?
<Trainer> TW....really bad comparison...and a bit rude to compare me to him
<bottoms_up{RD}> cool concubinary ;)
<TheWolfe> compared analogies
* BLiSs101 thought the comparison was quite appropriate from where i see d/s
<bottoms_up{RD}> i think there is zee, imho ;)
<`zee{LQ}> obeying with all your heart and confidence.. and obeying with trust
<TheWolfe> I apologised *smile*
<Sweetone{LT}> unfettered obedience
<bottoms_up{RD}> ok its 10pm and the discussion is officially over...thank you for your participation and patience on this Topic.. more fodder for my tired brain *warm smiles*
<`zee{LQ}> yes Sweetone{LT}.. thanks i just couldn't find the word
<PanheadAL> ok bottoms_up{RD} i have the log hun
* ^vixie shivers and ponders turning the heat up
<Sweetone{LT}> thank you bottoms for a wonderful discussion :)
* BLiSs101 aint no sub but she role plays one VERY WELL when she wants to
<bottoms_up{RD}> thanks Al *huggles*
<Trainer> I do now that If my slave disobeys, or even thinks she has displaesed me, she feels terrible...that is the true punishment of a true slave
<`zee{LQ}> unfettered obedience and obeying because you trust Him totally
<Sweetone{LT}> yes zee :)
<PanheadAL> np hun
<canplay> that is also true of subs Trainer
<`zee{LQ}> thanks bottoms_up{RD} good job!
<little^kitten{AF}> that sounds like me...
<canplay> thanks bottoms, nice job : )
<little^kitten{AF}> i seem to beat myself up more....
<Trainer> Since the discussion is over, I have a QUESTION. Does anybody know how I can signup/ pay for Madam A's play party ???
<bottoms_up{RD}> i just think that the wanting to please the Master isnt that important.. as even vanilla couples want to please each other.. i am trying to find what is the difference between that and D/s ;) ... still chattering past the log *Grin*
<little^kitten{AF}> well done bottoms_up{RD}
<^vixie> tks b/u
<TheWolfe> I think they are sold out Trainer
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles.. thank you everyone ;)
<canplay> i hope to some day find out why subs do play? it seems to go against my understanding of submitting
<`zee{LQ}> i think Trainer Sir.. there is a munch or was a munch were you could buy last minute tickets or i may be wrong
<dalian> mine too canplay
<bottoms_up{RD}> canplay, i play because it thrills me, it gives me what i want
<Sweetone{LT}> check at the next munch
Session Close: Sun Apr 16 22:03:43 2000