April 13, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Training Techniques". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> I would expect the turnout tonight to be relatively small due to Snow Bound
<Kilted_One> anyone with any opening comments to make??
<Kilted_One> does anyone wish to share any technique that they have used or had used on them with the rest of us??
<SirBear> techniques for getting people to discuss techniques?
<_dove> lol
<SirBear> :)
<drauma{MzTyger}> well, seems to me a lot depends on what is to be learned; I have self-learned numerous musical instruments, needing only a sense of what the sound should be and a minimum of instruction in technique
<Kilted_One> thinks of some dentist training that he had
<SirBear> lol
<drauma{MzTyger}> but. that assumes lots of time apart for the training, and no confilct or difficulty in practicing
<drauma{MzTyger}> training someone to run a reactor or a big computer would be different
<Kilted_One> let me ask a general question to the channel. Do you think that submissives need more training than Dom/mes do or vis-a versa???
<_dove> i think it is equal
<kw_brit> I would think that the very act of training is a learning curve for both parties
<drauma{MzTyger}> some submissives self-train
<drauma{MzTyger}> which hides the issue from any Dominant involved
<Kilted_One> is there any inherant advantages in that drauma{MzTyger}?? or disadvantages??
<GamesMaster_63> As a new Dom, I think that there is a certain amount of self-training on both sides as well as active training goin on.
<_dove> i don't understand what you mean, drauma{MzTyger}
<drauma{MzTyger}> it is not unheard of to find a submissive wh ois already polite, who kneels, who understands to be silent etc.
<_dove> Agreed, drauma. How does that hide issues?
<drauma{MzTyger}> some male submissives even leave the seat down
<drauma{MzTyger}> they ned no training in that regard
<GamesMaster_63> Behavior like that begs the question, how much training has been going on without it being "official"?
<drauma{MzTyger}> but, in many cases the submissive is training themself
<drauma{MzTyger}> and will continue to do so
<_dove> Some of that is inherent to self-improvement
<ambah> is it training or learning?
<GamesMaster_63> How does a novice Dom go about training themselves?
<drauma{MzTyger}> it would be learning if it was natural to do
<Kilted_One> does all training have to be "official" training or is most of it sort of casual??
<drauma{MzTyger}> throw that whip a thousand times
<drauma{MzTyger}> at a pillow
<Kilted_One> did you have a particular area in mind for that question GamesMaster_63??
<GamesMaster_63> The physical part of Domination I can train myself on easily, that just comes with practice, but how about psychological and emotional?
<jewel`{F}> a lot can be learned by observing others, talking to others, and reading
<Kilted_One> have you tried using Google?? <seriously> GamesMaster_63??
<drauma{MzTyger}> the movie Karate Kid, and the car-waxing sctick 'Wax-on' Wax-off' shows how one form of practice can be training, yet also not training
<GamesMaster_63> To search for what, Kilted_One?
<Kilted_One> information on the subjects that you are interested in learning about, GamesMaster_63
<_dove> There are many activities where self-training is not a good idea
<kw_brit> and a good way to clean a car <drauma{MzTyger}>
<GamesMaster_63> The only things I have been able to find are porn sites, using various search engines including Google.
<Kilted_One> do you think that psyc and emotional issues are unique to BDSM??, do you think there is a lot of cross over that we could use to our advantage??
<jewel`{F}> there are also lots of good workshops in the Southwestern Ontario area
<GamesMaster_63> I can see quite a bit of crossover, the only problem with some of that is we recently changed from a basically vanilla her somewhat dominant relationship to a D/s with me as Dom and I still find myself occasionally floundering. Can't afford the trip to Ontario.
<Achilles{tr}> Is psych and emotional training something One can learn like a flogging technique or is it something One has a knack or an innate ability for... or perhaps somewhere in betweeen? Having a knack is required in order to learn?
<Kilted_One> My own personal experience with Google has been the opposite, GamesMaster_63, I have found all kinds of info on subjects that I have been after, and to be honest porn harldy every even gets a hit
<blue`girl> steel door is a good site
<GamesMaster_63> Thank you blue`girl.
<MasterBaiter> GamesMaster: if you can read newsgroups, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm is quite good. Articulate postings from experienced people.
<kw_brit> Surely one must have some sort of 'knack' through their own interests otherwise they in themselves would never manifest
<Kilted_One> Do we train all of our psych experts or are they all "natural" was the first thought
<_dove> This channel is a good resource, there are experienced Dominants here
<GamesMaster_63> Kilted_One, I must just be typing in the wrong search. And TY MasterBaiter
<Achilles{tr}> KO... not everyone who wants to be a psychologist/psychiatrist can train to be one. It does take a certain talent/ability.
<blue`girl> i found the correct URL can i paste it here?
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps the same is true of a Dominant who wants to learn to handle issues beyond the physical?
<Kilted_One> nods at Achilles{tr}, and a desire I think too, but I think that we start with raw building blocks and through teaching and learning we create the experts that we have today
<drauma{MzTyger}> not to mention good grades and finacial resources
<Kilted_One> go ahead blue`girl
<blue`girl> http://www.steel-door.com
<Kilted_One> do you think that we all get some form of training as we go through various experiences in this life style
<MasterBaiter> Of course...at least, I hope so.
<GamesMaster_63> I think that all people get training from life. It is when you attempt to change your lifestyle that you start to realize what is and is not training.
<Achilles{tr}> W/we are certainly exposed to new things... whether W/we seek training or knowledge of those items is going to be based on their appeal. I have seen fireplay but do not seek to learn about it. I saw whip play and learned to use one through numerous avenues.
<Kilted_One> does anyone have any experiences good or bad about training that they want to pass along
<drauma{MzTyger}> 'you can lead the horse to water, but making him drink is a different kettle of fish'
<krista-F> this girl has nothing but good to say about her training and her Trainer...
<drauma{MzTyger}> fraktured metaphor aside, one can find it diffucult to teach the unmotivated
<drauma{MzTyger}> and even the motivated sometimes need kid-glove handling
<GamesMaster_63> I am learning that in order to train effectively I have to think of my sub as a child in many ways. Very much positive reinforcement for the behaviors I desire and approve of and some punishment for those I don't, the extent depending on the extent of the offense.
<Kilted_One> and why as a child GamesMaster_63??
<drauma{MzTyger}> is active punishment always necessary? isnt simple disaprooval usually enough?
* {OT}cariye is not a child but likes things explained rationally to her so she can learn better
* Kilted_One considers that submissives often "punish" themselves more effectively that the Master does
* _dove agrees with Kilted_One
<drauma{MzTyger}> I am very much a rational person, reason is the best way to teach me in most cases
<GamesMaster_63> It is to a certain extent the same way we have raised our daughter, Kilted_One. Not yet in our case, drauma{MzTyger}
<blue`girl> what do you consider active punishment
<blue`girl> i find the most effective punishment for me is withdrawal of attention
<krista-F> same here blue girl
<drauma{MzTyger}> I have found wiht the children I teach games to (and the adults) thta punishment certainly isnt an ooption there, but high expectations work well
<blue`girl> that makes me think about what i've done and from that i modify my behavior
<Kilted_One> I have witnessed submissives tearing themselves apart only because they thought they "disapointed" their Dom/me, Master/Mistress
<krista-F> there is no greater pain
<GamesMaster_63> Positioning, removal of privileges, some non-erotic pain.
<blue`girl> communication is important like in anything
<drauma{MzTyger}> I have done that to myself, especially when a punishment was delayed
<krista-F> but to some GameMaster...all pain is eroitic....
<_dove> Some of that punishment would also depend on what point the training was at....
<ambah> that might not work with all submissives
<`abi> is training all about punishment?
<_dove> i should hope not abi
<blue`girl> i wouldn't think so abi
<krista-F> not in this ones experience..it was about growth
<GamesMaster_63> Not in the case of my sub, although I do understan that krista-F
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would think training had the goal of self-improvement
<GamesMaster_63> I prefer training to be about pleasure.
<_dove> Training is to learn something new and perfect / improve it
<drauma{MzTyger}> sometimes self-improvement is easy to do, sometimes it can be very very hard
<Kilted_One> why would training in our lifestyle be any different from training in the vannila world??
<Sir_StephenS> we are now on the topic of what is it exactly that is being 'taught' during 'training'
<drauma{MzTyger}> we have punishment as a method
<Kilted_One> there was punishment in the vannilla world not that long ago and was it not thought to be regressive and so it has been replaced??
<`abi> aren't there other methods?
<drauma{MzTyger}> analysis of failure
<_dove> There will be mistakes made during training, that's why we train...... If the trainee fears punishment at every mistake, that could be very detrimental, no?
<krista-F> took this girl a while to overcome her nervousness at not being pleasing...
<Kilted_One> maybe we are too "tied" up with the old style of "beating it in to you" and the fact that we get off on giving or recieving pain that we fall back on this when we are in a training mode??
<GamesMaster_63> I don't mean to imply that there is punishment at every mistake, only when it becomesa a pattern of behavior.
<`abi> I think that training is simply learning what is expected and perhaps acquiring certain skill sets
<krista-F> for some time it got in the way of her learning and her ability to serve properly
<Sir_StephenS> I think we still live in a pretty retributive society KO
<Kilted_One> nods at Sir_StephenS, yes I think we are still a long way down the learning pole
<Sir_StephenS> abi, are you saying that training is mostly about knowing what the Dom wants?
<Kilted_One> what other techniques are there out there that work (other that punishment)
<`abi> no Sir_StephenS, I think that training is mostly about learning what the Dominant wants and how to provide it
<drauma{MzTyger}> musicians have to get the simple things ;into their fingers', ie, away from rational thougth processes and into reflexive processes
<_dove> Communication, Kilted_One, dialogue
<_dove> Practice
<drauma{MzTyger}> some training is analogous
<Sir_StephenS> why doesn't the Dom simply tell the sub want they want, abi, ie why is training necessary
<`abi> that's rather my point Sir_StephenS .. I think that sometimes it is as simple as being told ... but it is also a process of understanding
<_dove> Amen, abi
<Kilted_One> isnt that training in its simplest form Sir_StephenS??
<Sir_StephenS> ahhh
<drauma{MzTyger}> sometimes the submissive has trouble doing what is wnated
<drauma{MzTyger}> my typing for exaample
<maidenEarth> or doing it with the right attitude?
<_dove> Sometimes the submissive doesn't understand what is wanted, that becomes frustrating beyond belief
<drauma{MzTyger}> nods
<drauma{MzTyger}> it was very hard for me to understand the formation of a bagle
<GamesMaster_63> And that brings up the point that the Dom has to be very sure of what they want and clear about communicating it and ensuring that the sub understands.
<drauma{MzTyger}> the skin of the dough is so delicate, and one must stretch it just so
<drauma{MzTyger}> without heating it
<Kilted_One> at the start if this discussion I think there was a consensus that both submissive and Doms need training....what do we do when the Dom doenst get it right?? do we still use "punishment"
<Achilles{tr}> Training can be for something as simple as how I like My coffee (black and strong) to more complex elements such as how I want it served.
<_dove> Interesting question, Kilted One
<drauma{MzTyger}> IMHO punishment should be a last resort, done with sober and thorough understanding
<GamesMaster_63> And hard to answer. A Dom/Domme has to be very aware of their behavior before they can attempt to change a subs.
<maidenEarth> Kilted_One, a sub punishing a Dom would be passive agressive wouldn't it? Which is manipulative, is this acceptable?
<drauma{MzTyger}> membering how Mistress likes her coffee can be hard
<_dove> Who would "punish" the Dom?
<Sir_StephenS> I find it tough to apply the term 'punishment' to a Dom
<drauma{MzTyger}> cop pulls ya over for speeding, you (Dom) act Domly, you get the full treatment
<ambah> would that not cause a struggle of sorts........if a sub tried to 'punish' a Dom?
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would hope there would be a reversal of roles first ambah
<Kilted_One> I think my question was "DO we use punishment still??
* Kilted_One nods to maidenEarth, yes something like that
<drauma{MzTyger}> I think your question odd KO, it implies that the Dom is aware of being wrong or muddle headed
* `abi would hope that Dominants are aware of when they are wrong
<_dove> A Dom can be wrong, drauma, they are human too.
<_dove> i would pray that the Dom would want to improve / correct
<drauma{MzTyger}> nods, but if they arent aware of it, why are they wondering if they should punish or no
<Kilted_One> yes you are right drauma{MzTyger}, Im human I need training too I dont know everything and yes I am gonna get it wrong
<GamesMaster_63> That is what I am saying, a Dom/Domme has to be aware of when they do something wrong so they can correct it themselves.
<krista-F> this one was most fortunate to have a Trainer who was able to admit mistakes...
<krista-F> and to know he was not perfect
<Sir_StephenS> on the contrary, abi, I would say Doms are more apt not to realize when they are wrong
<krista-F> but he always tried to do his best for this girl
<Kilted_One> so we can corect ourselves without out the need for punishement GamesMaster_63?? why does that work for us and not submissives??
<`abi> I don't agree Sir_StephenS ... I think that self-awareness is a hugely important trait in a Dominant
<_dove> i would think the best card the sub can play, if he/she thinks the Dom is wrong, is to refuse to engage (safeword)
<drauma{MzTyger}> I am fortunate that MzTyger has an excellent sense fo humor and is patient
<ambah> then I would hope the Dom and sub are able to step back and see the moment that has gone wrong and at least talk about it
<GamesMaster_63> That is not quite what I meant KO, sometimes it has to be pointed out to us, and if so I would prefer that it be pointed out to me by my sub, so that we can discuss how to get past it.
<_dove> Sometimes the sub doesn't know
<drauma{MzTyger}> while i was driving in TO ..."Take this exit, we need East.." *I knew we needed west...* "Yes, MzTyger, take the West Exit" I took the west exit, grinning at her as she mock fumed at me...We got home, and I earned a bit of respect to boot.
<Kilted_One> so there was a bit of discussion and the point was noted and agreed to and things move on without the need for any punishement.....can and does the same not hold for submissives when they err??
<`abi> it can, yes KO
<_dove> Yes it can, and often should
<drauma{MzTyger}> might depend on how often they repeat that same error
<`abi> assuming that the objectives of punishment are achieved in some other manner
<GamesMaster_63> It can, but remember that the Dom/Domme is in a position of authority and must show that they are willing to punish if it is required.
<drauma{MzTyger}> also, what damage (if any) was done
* Kilted_One think that maybe, just maybe that Dom/mes get off on the power base and simply revert to "punishement" as an easy way to resolve the issue and to "remind" the submissive who is boss
<drauma{MzTyger}> well, the bluster part of that is expected by the submissive
<Sir_StephenS> zactly KO; we must distinguish kinky punishment and punishment to make a point
<Sir_StephenS> not to mention punishment to show the hen who the rooster is
<`abi> I think that resolving an issue requires that it be acknowledged, understood and a plan to move forward is in place ... all of those things can conceivably be done without punishment ...but as KO points out, it is not necessarily the easiest approach
* Kilted_One thinks back to an earlier ??? about where to learn about this....and thinks that the reason for holding this discussion is really for learning purposes
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<`abi> and here I thought it was an excuse to have tea
<jewel`{F}> i have not been punished all that often, but Master has never used anything that could even remotely be thought of as play, all punishments have involved a lot of thinking on my part
<_dove> i dread punishment, to the point of fearing it....... using that as a training tool on me would be a disaster. Everybody is unique
<`abi> I think there are many other training techniques .... journals, workshops, mentoring
<earl{MS}> _dove, why do you fear it?
* Kilted_One takes note of doves dreads
<Sir_StephenS> yes...punishment only works on those who respond well to negative reinforcement
* Kilted_One winks at dove
<_dove> Punishment tells me i've disappointed my One....... that destroys me. i need approval, i do a fine job of putting myself down
* _dove smiles at Kilted_One......... from FAR away <g>
<earl{MS}> _dove, understood, thank you
<jewel`{F}> dove do you not find that you can feel that way even from just a certain look from your One
<_dove> absolutely jewel
<Kilted_One> do you think that Dom/mes are the same way too (that they put themselves down when they realise that were wrong)
<GamesMaster_63> I DO
<drauma{MzTyger}> sometimes, but many try so hard not to show that
<drauma{MzTyger}> its not Domly
<Kilted_One> a sort of self punishement if you will??
<jewel`{F}> KO i think they can, maybe not to the same extent or quite the same way
<_dove> i have more respect for someone who admits erring, than someone hiding it.
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<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<drauma{MzTyger}> I think all service-oriented types do