April 11 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> Okay people...lets give this a shot :)
<`abi> Welcome to the first official discussion in BDSM-kw
<`abi> _Tonight's topic is "Finding a Safe, Sane & Willing BDSM Partner"
<`abi> I know that there are formal ways of doing this, but thought we'd 
try a less formal approach first
<`abi> Only two rules....
<`abi> please refrain from Walton style hi/byes for the course of the 
<`abi> and please try to stay on topic
<`abi> okay...let's start by asking the people who are in relationships 
how they met their partners
<`abi> Mltdwn^jazmaia?....you've had a good experience with meeting
<`abi> could you share with the channel how you met?
 compared to previos meeting experiences..yes..
<`abi> what was different
 sure abi :)
 there was nothing planned in our meeting..it was by 
chance..a going out for a coffee to get to know each other better....
 no preconcieved notions :)
 (we met in this channel)
 and when we met, it was like walking into your own 
<`abi> has anyone else here met a partner in a BDSM channel....this one 
or others?
 we did
 we fit perfectly...understanding without 
saying...knowing, feeling, and enjoying each others compant right from 
day one :)
 i did a few months back
 i met one brief "partner" here on channel.
<`abi> was it a good experience dalian and brat?
 no abi... not a good experience. it was one of those cases 
where the person turns out to be very different in person than they are 
 i cant begin to explain how well it went...i was nervous at 
first...having known this person only onlin for a year previously
 Hey! ... you met ME online, cyberbrat :-)
 not on this channel.
<`abi> ahhh...two very different results from an online 
meeting....anyone have any ideas about what makes the difference?
 there is an incredible anticipation when meeting someone 
online...can make for a wonderful meeting or a great disappointment
<`Lucius> I've had that anticipation problem with other RL meetings
 IMHO its important to get to know the person online.  Ask 
lots of questions!
 yes lvs
 definately lvs
 we find it good because you hace a common starting 
ground before your meeting
 for me it was the fact that we met and had no 
surprises...the honesty was there from the beginning, and so much was 
shared online...so it was like carrying on from where we were 
already...it was only natural
<`abi> what kinds of questions lvs?
 what are you looking for inthis is a big one!
 As many questions as you need to feel comfortable..and check 
for consistancies in the answers.  With the man who first introduced me 
to the lifestyle we talked online for 5 months before I flew to meet 
<`abi> what made you decide that the time was right for a r/l meeting 
<`abi> lol Tom :)
<`abi> how did you meet your partner Tom?
 Good question `abi.  I just knew that I had a good sense by 
that time of who he was and that I could trust him.
 Who met on haven?
 Mara and I met at a talker ... She was my slavegirl for six 
months, i guess
<`abi> what is haven phaedrav?
 I thought Ohio was too far away for RL, and she thought I 
wasn't interested in Rl
 we still argue about who split up with whom
<`abi> were either of you correct Tom?
 Haven is a mush w kinky folk
 But then we met at a get-together in Toronto, and went home to 
mom's to play ... totally unsafe, no backup, but it worked
<`abi> ...but was the backup previous knowledge of one another?
 yes, definitely, we knew each other
<`abi> have you had experience meeting a partner in a mush phaedrav?
 I just wander around haven lost.
 Others here have met there
 the thing with meeting a potential "playmate" is that 
eventually after all the talking and talking and safety 
nets...etc...eventually you have to take a plunge
 that's right. and the plunge tells the tale.
 and you never know how it will be until it happens
<`abi> Okay....if we can move on to another aspect of this 
discussion.....safety is a big issue...both physical and emotional 
safety....and I'm wondering what makes people feel "safe" when they meet 
someone and in the initial stages of a relationship
 I met Kitten at Haven, actually
 ya sink or swim.
 the hairs on the back of their neck abi :)
 one also has to learn to truly trust their intuition...the 
very slightest hint of question is reason to hold back
<`abi> ...instinct Mltdwn^jazmaia?
 a gut feeling you get
 yes,yes, yes dalian. instinct is huge.
<`abi> this is a pretty new thing for alot of people....are instincts 
still reliable?
 my own instincts are very reliable...they have yet to fail 
 "in-stinks"....can be dead wrong....and I have chosen my 
words carefully......_
 Instinct goes out the window when you're horny (or lonely).
 nothing is perfectly reliable
<`abi> ...so what kind of backup do we give our instincts?
 i remember a time when i met someone i thought i really 
trusted, no question...but there was this brief inkling that something 
wasnt right...and it proved itself on the night
<`Lucius> experience helps
 i chose to ignore that inkling out of need
<`abi> yes Lucius...experience helps..but what if you haven't had much 
 one has to look for consistancies as well as inconsitancies 
when discussing 
 I think its easier for a male to feel safe. I also think the 
same insticts you have in the Vanilla world apply in this world
<`Lucius> then consult the experience of others...if you can
<`abi> do you think a male is emotionally more safe SirBear{} or just 
 Not emotionally
<`Lucius> definately not emotionally.
 how safe is he if he's tied up?
<`abi> good point Wolfe^en
 hmmmm, physicaly for the most part. 
 not necessarily physically wither
<`abi> how many people regularly use safe calls....and how much of a 
safety net do they provide?
<`Lucius> I've often started out with "implied" bondage when I'm with 
someone new
<`abi> that sounds interesting `Lucius...can you tell us more about 
implied bondage?
 i felt very safe, i had no specific reason to be, i could 
have easily been hurt...but you do what you can do to minimize the risks
 i recently used a safe call. which was fine and dandy 
except that the bad stuff happened after the safe call had taken place.
<`Lucius> Either tying, or being tied...tight enough to feel good, but 
loose enough to easily slip out of.
 could someone pls explain what a safe call is?
<`abi> what can you do to minimize the risks Wolfe^en....
 exactly cyber..when it comes right down to it...we must be 
responsible for ourselves
 Well when the safe call, was called "play" should have halted!
<`abi> a safe call is a call to someone at a prearranged time SirBear
* cyberbrat_ nods to Wolfe&en
<`abi> so you recommend a safecall for the end of a meeting Kirspin?
 ahh, thx abi
 Only if there is iminet danger to the sub
 safecalls help a bit...meet somewhere public, all that 
stuff...but like i said, ultimately, the person could be really nice 
when meeting or talking a million times before, or even after playing a 
few times and then turn creepy...it's just a risk no matter what
 Are we talking about casual play or partners?
 Kirpin: i think you were thinking of a 'safeword'...
 I'm not paranoid, but I only play with special friends.
 I use some things for first dates, whether Vanilla of bdsm 
that leave outs
 Yes cb
 Or better yet, having a friend phone you .. that way, being 
tied up doesn't prevent safety, and the other person knows someone knows 
where you are
<`abi> isn't there always potential danger at a first time meeting?
 of course abi
<`abi> what kind of things SirBear?
 even in a public place there can be
<`Lucius> that danger exists even without bondage
 there is always potential danger
 always meet in a public place, during the week and for 
coffee, not dinner
 why not dinner, SB?
<`abi> is it a good idea to meet at least once without plans for a 
"physical encounter"?
 dinner has expectations
 I suggest meeting for coffee, then always eat, 'cause I'm 
 to much pressure for dinner. If things arent going well at 
coffee one can always use the "gotta get ready for work" option to end 
things easily
 dinner also gives a person too much opportunity to avoid eye 
<`abi> too much dalian?...why is eye contact important?
 Plus dinner can be messy (all the best things are)
* ^sas remembers her first meeting with MasterZarith.....i took down his 
car plate number and called a friend with it
<`abi> ...but what made you feel safe enough to meet with him sas?
<^sas> desire drove me
<^sas> but i had to cover be safe so we met at a coffee shop...had 
* `abi smiles....desire seems to be a recurring theme...how much does it 
cloud our judgement?
 its important because when you are discussing things about 
yourself and your expectations...or vice versa...if they cant look 
directly at you while talking, they are either uncomfortable or perhaps 
dishonest about what they really want
<`abi> so those are signals for you dalian?
<^sas> thats true......you must trust your own judgement in person
 yes, that and body language
 If it seems too good to be true...
<`abi> and body language is what we miss when we meet someone 
online....is there any way to compensate for it?
 nervousness is to be expected, and you can tell the 
 get references
<^sas> yeah i wouldn't go off with anyone that isn't into my community 
in known by other bdsm's
<`Lucius> but what if the person is new to the scene...they won't have 
<`abi> okay...if we haven't frightened ourselves out of ever meeting 
anyone...what are some of the issues that you first discuss with someone 
that you meet online, or at a munch or in a mush?
 limits and respect..consensuality
<`abi> how comfortable do you feel discussing that very early on tantra?
 its more important to me to get across what i DON"T want to 
happen, then what i do want
 I think it depends, sometimes you click with someone right 
away and it leads to more intimate discussions right away and other 
times it takes time for a relationship to grow
<`abi> why is that more important tantra?
 having what you don't want is what makes the experience bad, 
more than not getting what you need...that can come later
 i think perhaps it is best to just let the conversation 
direct itself for the first meeting
<`abi> can you tell anything about a person by the where the 
conversation goes naturally dalian?
<`abi> KO...you and vixen started your relationship from quite a 
distance...what issues were important for you to discuss at the start?
 but also where the discussion doesn't go...topics that that 
need to be discussed but are avoided are very telling
<`Lucius> I aggree with dalian, you can impart a fair bit from on line 
<`abi> what if someone is shy about discussing BDSM....if they are new 
to it...what kinds of leading questions can be asked?
 meeting for the first time on the conceived notion that you 
are being interviewed is not productive and can be inhibiting for some 
who may be new
* Kilted_One thinks you can tell more from the "style" of chat v's the 
<`abi> what do you mean by style KO?
 how did you become interested...what made you persue it 
now...not earlier or later
 the way in which one uses words...what words are 
used....when they are used...that sort of thing_
 i prefer to see the personality of the person come through 
in the conversation, it tells me alot about preferences, what makes them 
comfortable, what makes their reactions become more direct...etc
 exactly KO
<`abi> does that help to indicate whether a potential partner is as 
"formal" in their approach to BDSM as you might be KO?
<`abi> so it sounds like we all think that ALOT of communication is 
important in the initial stages of a relationship.....is there any a 
time when BDSM is "recreational"?
 some like fet nights for play
 Of course. But communication is still important
 they meet & negotiate a scene
<`abi> are our expectations different for that kind of a partner?
 sometimes it's looking for a partner, sometimes it's just a 
date or a one-night stand
 I dont know if that is true abi....I do know that with time 
you learn to "read between the lines" sort of thing and you can start to 
get a picture of someone....._
<`abi> any one besides KO and Tom have experience with a long distance 
 but nothing subs for r/l meetings
 i have...the one i met a few months ago, but the 
relationship is still goping
 briefly abi...on line did not translate well to r/l
 I met Master while living in Florida.  We communicated for about 
a yr. before I came up to stay.  Flew back and forth etc.
 we first met online about 15 months ago
 I have one going to, in Cyber, but its not like in R/l
<`abi> how is it different Kirspin?
 My on line did.  We are planning to be married.  But, you are 
right.  It was communication.  He called and we talked every night for 1 
to 2 1/2 hrs.
 Well you can plan to do things in r/l but in Cyber you might 
both think of things to do, someimes it get very fustrating
 would you say that was to do with not being fully open and 
honest to each other tantra_s?_
 We knew each other VERY well before we even met.
<`abi> okay...at the risk of opening up the floor to trolling...those of 
you who are not in relationships....can you tell us what you are looking 
for in a partner?
 How is that fustrating, for both of you to think of things, 
 a friend first of all as well as physical & emotional 
 KO...no...were both honest...but saying or describing 
something on line and then trying to replicate it r/l didn't always work
<`abi> how important is "friendship" to people?
 sorry Tom didnt understand your ?
 it is a necessity for me
 oops, sorry, should have addressed that to Kirspin
* Kilted_One smiles to Tom
 Its fustrating in realizing that in Cyber , two of us might 
nnever meet in r/l
<`abi> how so dalian?....
 friendship is extremely important to me, I am way past one 
night stands (well for the most part)
 That part is certainly true, kirspin
 You can only flog and fuck for so long, then you need to be 
able to stand each other's company fully clothed ..
* SirBear{} agrees with TomDLux
 lol Tom
<`abi> do you think it happens in that order Tom? ....or does the 
friendship part come first?
 If you do get to meet your Cyber partner, then you might not 
get along, then your plans sort of go out the windeow!
 thinks that one will have many friendships in life, and 
they can be on many differnt levels
 when a frienship develops...trust comes naturally
* Kilted_One nods to tantra_s.....sometimes you get lucky though
<`abi> how is friendship different in a BDSM relationship Astra?
 the friendship and the desire to get serious about playing 
happen together, in my opinion
<`abi> so getting serious about playing doesn't happen unless you feel 
the friendship Tom?
 you have a different sort of bond, i have many different 
friends each complimenting and reflecting many aspects of my 
<`abi> I think it's interesting that friendship seems to be important 
for people...I've often seen cyber relationships where the Master/slave 
model is so strict that there is no room for friendship...does this ever 
happen in r/l?
 Basically, `abi .. I mean, I admit to a one-night stand or 
two, but I really prefer someone I will play with again, given the 
opportunity .. want friendship, a degree of caring about the other 
person .. doesn't need to be "love", per se, but some affection, anyway
 I think it depends on the people involved abi
 Yes you cant really just play once and leave it, it takes 
awhile to really know the other person
 Yes, it certainly does abi'.  Especially in abusive 
relationships.  You are slowly pulled aside from all friendships.]
 i agree TomDLux...mutual affection is a nice place to start 
a relationship...I mean...there has to be some degree of respect for one 
 Abi  yes, it does.  Especiallyin abusive relationships.  It is 
slowly made so that you can have no friends.
 how can you truly know what your partner needs or even wants 
if you do not have some degree of "friendship" to begin with
<`abi> what else are people looking for....friendship is important, but 
we could make friends at the YMCA?
 But BDSM is not a abuseive relationship, it always has to be 
 mutual attraction, `abi...that is also what some people are 
looking for
 Interest in the same aspects of BDSM!!!
 I've met people online who want to sumit, but no pain; other 
people like pain, but no submission ..
 true Tom
 open to exploration of uncharted territory for either party
 I hate to tell you this but as it is happening you think it IS 
 i think of it this way, even my closest friends would not 
know me as deeply as the friendship formed in bdsm
<`abi> sunny...I think consensual vs. abusive is a good topic for 
another discussion :)
 sunao it seems as if you have been in an abusive 
relationship.. or very close to someone in that type of relationship
 BDSM is not about abuse
 yes dalian :)
<`abi> how is it deeper dalian and Mltdwn^jazmaia?
 What about when a Master/Mistress tries to separate you by 
saying you can't talk in private on line etc.?
 unfortunately when your in an abusive relationship you cant 
always see it..because you dont know any better
 It was just an example.
 you trust the other person so completely
 It is seen in many other relationships also.  That was one of 
many examples.
 (jaz here) my friends in bdsm know me more fully, 
completely, than my vanilla friends
<`abi> okay...we have a couple of minutes of *formal* informal 
discussion time left....does anyone have any specific questions?
 things i couldnt say to the vanilla friends
 ddesire, i wouldn't be inclined to completely trust a person 
who has no respect for my wishes both in my life and my bdsm life
 i agree
 dalian , i do agree with you that my bdsm friends / subs 
know me better than my vanilla friends.
 Who finds fet nights a good place to meet, compared to 
 and that type of person would send up immediate red flags
 it is a much closer relationship with my bdsm friends. they 
know my innermost desires
 abi, I think you are correct, we should put the idea of Abuse 
vs BDSM for another night!
 Most fet nights are too noisy .. call me over-aged, but I like 
to be able to hear the other person, and speak without shouting
 I agree Mltdwn^Jazmaia its the same with me and my 
vanilla friends, thats why i think this group is so important for alot 
of us:)
 hes Astra it is :)
* Kilted_One thinks that munches are designed for meeting new 
ppl....hence they work better that PP
 I find munches are a much more relaxed atmosphere than fet 
nights.  Of course, like Tom, I'm over-aged for fet nights.  :-)
* lyxanna decides not to coment
 Noise is ok, if you want to meet by body not by mind.
 If I were looking for a one-time casual play partner 
(which I haven't done in a long time) I might find a fet night a better 
 i like the fet clubs to dress up in fet gear, which i 
feel most comfortable and just sit with friends and have a fun night 
out, no guys ,no hassles, no headaches
 AT Northound parties you can get 2 minute playmates in the 
<`abi> okay folks...here endeth our first official discussion...but 
please feel free to continue chatting :)
<`abi> thanks for joining us...and *do* send Bernie ideas for future 
discussions :)