April 4, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Training Techniques". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion. I enjoy the use of ritual. But of course ritual is based over a duration of time.
<krista-F> i am grateful every day for it
<_dove> What kind of training are we talking about?
<paperclip> is that a sub could answer? it would be in the Doms eyes as to whether it was successful or not..yes/no?
<paperclip> a question i mean
<krista-F> rituals are very comforting to me Q-Tip
<QTIP> sure, krista-F, they create a mood and are wonderful in creating anticipation as well
<QTIP> but they do take time
<krista-F> i am very aware of the success of my training paperclip.....
<paperclip> k
<Achilles{tr}> Not necessarily paperclip. A sub may be quite willing to learn but if techniques are used that don't work for a particular lesson it could be obvious to everybody involved that there is/was a problem.
<paperclip> ok fair enough
<krista-F> i have been with Trainer Sir in one way or another for over two years real time Q-tip
<krista-F> paperclip....part of the success of my training....was in teaching me my true value
<QTIP> i hope you both are enjoying each other and yourselves
<Achilles{tr}> What sorts of things might we use training techniques for then/ What can a sub be 'Trained' in?
<_dove> repitition
<krista-F> it was a lesson i have learned...well
<QTIP> how about the "aims" of training, Achilles{tr}?
<Achilles{tr}> Exactly QTIP. What is it we want to achieve with, using _dove's example, such techniques as repitition?
<_dove> and using dove's mis-spelling lol
<QTIP> 3 basic aims for instance can be: obedience, becoming more pleasing (improvement), and the acceptance of one's kinky side
* Achilles{tr} grins at _dove
<Achilles{tr}> That would be an example of repetition then _dove?
<_dove> For me, training also involves developing a mindset
<_dove> Something like that Achilles
<Achilles{tr}> how might repetition be used?
<krista-F> well they do say practice makes perfect
<Achilles{tr}> Make a sub do the same sequence of actions over and over untilt hey can do it exactly as the Dom prefers?
<_dove> Sometimes a posture or position is learned, but its meaning is not totally understood until long after the position itself is perfected
<QTIP> I'm an old Catholic altar boy from the time of the Latin rite. I learned ritual from the best ;-)
<krista-F> indeed QTIP
<_dove> Perhaps, Achilles...... i would think though that just going through the motions isn't the means to an end?
<Achilles{tr}> That's a good point too QTIP. We can learn techniques for training from other forms of ritual and training like Catholics, English schools, and such.
<Achilles{tr}> Hmmm, what then is the end purpose of training techniques _do?
<Achilles{tr}> _dove?
<QTIP> I have often used what I call "litanies", to create a mood
<QTIP> some are question and answer
<_dove> There is always a reason (or should be) behind doing anything, imo. It's not so much the action, but the reason and intent that often takes longer to learn
<krista-F> for me the only reason i need is that it pleases the one i serve
<Achilles{tr}> Can you provide an example of a technique for training, the actions it trained you in and the purpose behind it for us _dove?
<paperclip> what about explaining the "why" behind something?
<paperclip> it's one thing to say it pleases me it's quite another to say "it pleases me becuz..."
<krista-F> i guess im just a simple girl then.....
<QTIP> Perhaps paperclip is more interested in Socratic training ;-)
<_dove> Some of this is like the movie The Karate Kid........ he learned the moves long before he understood how to use them, and why
<Achilles{tr}> It does sound like paperclip and _dove are heading in the same direction. A Training technique should, perhaps, offer not only the lesson but also the reason behind it?
<paperclip> no no krista-F...but sometimes the why's behind something help to remember it.
<QTIP> "An unquestioned life is not worth living." Socrates
<krista-F> i have walked behind and to the left of Trainer Sir always......i never knew the reason why i was doing it..
<krista-F> and now that i do.....it changes nothing really
<krista-F> i still do it....because that is how he prefers it......
<krista-F> that is my motivation....
<_dove> Understand why i do something makes a difference - for me. Otherwise i feel like a puppet. Others i'm sure feel differently
<paperclip> i feel like _dove
<paperclip> we're supposed to be equals not puppets...i'm constantly being told that in the advice i receive
<QTIP> In my opinion, this is an ego trip for both top and bottom. The both seek attention to certain specific needs.
<_dove> Some of our training is also for our safety
<Achilles{tr}> That's somethign to keep in mind too. Different people have diferent need sna learn different things in different ways. How we teach something is going to change for each thing taught to each person.
<krista-F> do you think perhaps we have different views paperclip because i view myself more slave than sub?
<paperclip> i'm not a slave krista-F (not yet anyways) so yes we do
<krista-F> it is not a promotion paperclip....it is not for everyone....it is not better....it just is for some....
<paperclip> i have heard things you've said in the rooms and i envy what you have however i'm a newbie and far from where you are in life.
<krista-F> i was a newbie too paperclip.and it was not that long ago
<_dove> Everyone's goals are different, there is no set rules or set path
<krista-F> everyone is new at some point
<paperclip> could be why i'm wanting to know the why's and you don't need them.
<QTIP> paperclip, what makes you feel wanted/needed/important?
<QTIP> ...desirable?
<paperclip> hmmmm wow that's a hard question for me.
<QTIP> krista-F, what makes you feel wanted/needed/important/desirable?
<paperclip> i have yet to pinpoint what it is about bdsm that i love or what about it makes me feel those things.
<krista-F> and to me it is so very easy to answer......
<krista-F> serving...
<QTIP> ;-)
<QTIP> yes...being of service
<QTIP> not for everybody
<krista-F> no...but for me.......
<QTIP> understood
<QTIP> if there's one thing i MUST master in myself it's being observant, focused, creative and flexible in what i do in scene
<QTIP> Everybody is different. So are all relationships.
<paperclip> i'm confused by krista-F answer to QTIP's question
<krista-F> how can i help make it better understood paperclip?
<QTIP> What do you find confusing?
<paperclip> are you saying you're happy to just simply serve?
<krista-F> yes i am
<paperclip> doesn't matter who they are?
<paperclip> then we are quite different. i'm not sub to anyone and everyone...i need a Dom who can prove a few things to me first.
<paperclip> but this seems to be getting off topic lol
<krista-F> he asked what makes me feel a certain way.....he did not ask me who paperclip
<paperclip> oh, ok. so it would matter then who it was?
<krista-F> i do not serve everyone paperclip....
<paperclip> i'm not attacking just trying to understand. don't want it to seem that way.
<krista-F> i was not taking it that way at all
<paperclip> :)
<_dove> In my case, i love being service-oriented, the pleasure i get is from the One i serve, through His approval, praise, etc.
<paperclip> ok, i guess what i'm trying to find out is if that need makes you willing to do that with anyone? is it that much a part of you that anyone who comes along can eventually have you serve them?
<paperclip> i'm just thinking that if we're naturally submissive, then anyone who is good and has the opportunity to condition us can make us serve them whether they are for us or not. make sense?
<`abi> *anyone* is a pretty big generalization
<_dove> In my case, i am very particular as to who i serve...... much like your earlier comment, paperclip
<krista-F> i serve in my job every day paperclip......even the way i make my living is geared to that way of life
<kierana{DRFL}> know what you mean, krista...*smiles8
<krista-F> i have yet to be "conditioned" to that extent....
<QTIP> At 25 it was exciting to think of owning a stable. At 52 I'm more interested in a stable relationship. ;-)
<paperclip> i think training a submissive can be a very easy thing for many Dom's whether a sub would normally have/want them or not. being sub by nature makes you suseptable to these things doesn't it?
<paperclip> lol QTIP
<kierana{DRFL}> i wouldn't want to be conditioned to serve "everyone"...there is such a thing as not being able to please all ppl all the time
<krista-F> and i have retained my intelligence...which helps me avoid such things QTIP
<_dove> To some of those things, yes, paperclip. Other things may not come naturally to one person, while another picks up on it immediately
<paperclip> ok
<`abi> ummm...not really paperclip
<paperclip> ok, why is that abi?
<`abi> being submissive by nature makes very little easy
<paperclip> can you explain that for me?
<`abi> difficult to generalize, but it's been my experience that most submissives have a desire to please combined with a desire to be cared for and to feel safe
<paperclip> agreed
<krista-F> very true in my case abi
<`abi> making those things happen ...especially in combination, is never easy
<_dove> i agree abi, well said
<`abi> it requires a high degree of self-understanding, which is alot of work
<`abi> and it requires a whole shit-load of effort on the part of the Dominant
<krista-F> perhaps my age give me some sort of leg up in that regard
<paperclip> i agree with that completely
<`abi> few are willing to put in that kind of effort on either side of the equation
* Achilles{tr} has been working out.. keeps in shape... tries to eat right.
<krista-F> if a girl dows not know herself by this stage of her life.....well.....that would be very sad
* `abi smiles...case in point
<paperclip> i don't think that's a fair comment unless i misunderstood it
<_dove> krista, i respectfully disagree....... i am learning tons about myself right now, and some of it amazes me.
<krista-F> i was not saying others don't learn about themselves....just that at 52 yrs of age i have a very good sense of who i am
<QTIP> I have a love/hate relationship with facing my own limits. But I realize that's where the growth is. Growth isn't comfortable.
<paperclip> until i learned of my liking of bdsm i was a very secure, dominant in daily life, know my likes/dislikes all that sort...my new found interest has my mind in a constant whirlwind now.
<krista-F> and i most certainly should have by this age
<`abi> I have a pretty good sense of who I am today...I expect that it might change tomorrow and the next day and the next day
<_dove> and i'm saying that i did not have a sense of who i am, within this lifestyle.
<`abi> which means I can't really affort to get complacent about self-understanding or I'll wake up with a stranger one morning
<krista-F> perhaps i just have let contentment make me complacent
<krista-F> but i am truly happy with who and what i am.....and i have worked very hard to be able to get to this point in life
<QTIP> paperclip, is it that your view of life is different now, or that you've learned some things about yourself you didn't realize before...when you felt more secure?
<paperclip> i'd say i've learned new things about myself that i didn't realize before. i'm still so new at this that i find it has taken over ALL my thoughts and affects my daily life.
* _dove tries to steer the discussion back to the topic
<QTIP> _dove, training does have to do with it's effects
<_dove> krista........ did some of your training help you discover parts of yourself?
<krista-F> without question
<QTIP> we can talk about objectives and techniques as well, of course
<kierana{DRFL}> i think training causes subs and Dom/mes to look deep within themselves and discover new, hidden depths...it's all part of the learning process
<paperclip> can somebody give an example of these new hidden depths and discoveries? i'm not understanding that part.
<_dove> Learning to kneel in offering position isn't hard to do. A few instructions, a few corrections, and there you have it.
<_dove> The emotions and depths behind that position though are much tougher to get in touch with and truly feel.
<QTIP> I do have different expectations of myself because of what I've experienced in a D/s or even bdsm relationship. I am my word. I take responsibility for the consequences of my actions. I am well mannered as I believe good manners reflects self-respect.
<`abi> do you have a part of yourself that you consider to be 'dark' paperclip?
<krista-F> most of my lessons were of a more inner type than phycial positions and the like
<paperclip> not sure what you mean by dark exactly, abi but right away i felt my answer would be yes.
* `abi nods ... then that would be an example of part of yourself that you may come to know better
<paperclip> ahh
<krista-F> the exploration of just that paperclip.....is much of what i learned to know better
<paperclip> ok
<QTIP> paperclip, is what is "hidden" inside you allowed some freedom when you feel yourself submit?
<kierana{DRFL}> and depths does not always mean dark...i learn joy in serving...satisfaction...even pride in doing for Master what i'll do for no other
<Achilles{tr}> What sorts of techniques might be used to explore a dark depth?
<_dove> Would someone define dark depth, in context, please?
<paperclip> not sure QTIP, i know i am in control of myself at every second in life. i know that i have always felt i have to be on guard, when i'm with someone i trust will protect me and keep me safe a need to do whatever it takes to please them and keep them happy with me comes out. it's like they've given me a gift of freedom from that control and so i give it over to them happily.
<paperclip> not sure that makes sense but it's the best i can describe right now
<QTIP> yes paperclip. I see this in a somewhat more spiritual way. It has to do with giving meaning to life
<`abi> dark = those parts of yourself that you might not be entirely comfortable with dove, but which you long in some way to express
<_dove> thank you abi
<`abi> things which make you feel particularly vulnerable emotionally
<QTIP> there's a very powerful word in our culture, especially when used by one woman toward another: slut. Isn't "slut" a dark word?
<_dove> Achilles, i would think that introducing the sub to an activity that falls in that category, in 'small chunks'?
<Achilles{tr}> Sides of yourself that feel good to release but which leave you vulnerable if they are not accepted as being a part of you.
<`abi> but the expression of which someone makes you feel more authentic
<`abi> it can certainly invoke dark feelings, yes QTIP
<`abi> especially dependent upon the context
<Achilles{tr}> Possibly so, _dove. Such as?
<QTIP> But yet, some subs respond to be called a slut in time. Some even smile at calling themselves a slut.
<krista-F> i am a slut......but always a classy slut
<paperclip> well not to make light of it, but being called a slut is a turn on and i'm one of those who'd smile
<_dove> i was terrified of bondage, Achilles........ if i were tied to the point of immobility the first time i re-visited, my terror would have been validated
<QTIP> what have you found out about yourself as you explored bondage, _dove?
<Achilles{tr}> That is certainly a way to help someone become comfortable with a fear of something _dove. Is that one of the points of training? To deal with fears?
<_dove> i love it QTIP, the fear is gone
<QTIP> you faced a limit
<`abi> so to relate it to training paperclip .... knowing what turns you on ... and using that knowledge to control, is a good part of training
<_dove> i believe it is, Achilles, fears and doubts
<QTIP> you grew
<_dove> Some of the training techniques also help to building that ever-so-critical trust factor
<paperclip> ok abi..understood, thanks
<_dove> i have grown in leaps and bounds QTIP *smiles*
* `abi nods to dove ... also trust in yourself
<Achilles{tr}> I would agree _dove. Fear is somethign which can be overcome by training.
<krista-F> before i started my training....i had not trusted anyone completely since i was 16 yrs old
<Achilles{tr}> What about the fear of failure?
<Achilles{tr}> Can that be 'trained' away?
<_dove> i am a trainer in my day job. There are 5 steps to learning - impact, repetition, utilization, internalization, and back to basics. i've found they apply to this lifestyle perfectly
<QTIP> I believe so, Achilles
<_dove> Some, Achilles... that can have very deep roots
<QTIP> But it's a paradigm shift
<`abi> internalization being the biggest hurdle for me
<_dove> It's the toughest hurdle, abi
<krista-F> yes...it can......i am one who has done that thru training Achilles Sir
* `abi chuckles...good!... you mean I'm not the only one on this track team?
<QTIP> what if...failure is just learning what doesn't work? what if failure is just a lesson in life?
<QTIP> what if regret is just the myth that we can go back, do over?
<QTIP> ;-)
<_dove> what if failure is a measure of your self-worth? Then it is something that can't be trained away
<krista-F> but one can learn to face it...and not be too afraid to try ....
<krista-F> fear kept me from many things....for many years
<Achilles{tr}> Learning not to fear failure is not learning not to fail.. but learning that failure is a part of learning itself. Finding that we can fail at something without being a failure.
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<_dove> well said Achilles...... it can be a tough lesson to learn
* `abi doesn't fail well
* _dove hates failing and avoids it at all costs
<QTIP> if failure becomes a lesson and accepted as just that...would this be a good aim for training?
<krista-F> my fear would affect my performance to such a degree that it would inhibit my ablility to be pleasing
<`abi> only if the first part of the lesson is accepting it as a positive thing QTIP
<QTIP> understood
<paperclip> agreed with abi
<_dove> You can't use that approach with someone who has a deep fear of failure, QTIP.... in my case, you'd scare me away
<QTIP> of course
<krista-F> i learned that i do not have to be perfect.....i just have to do my best
<QTIP> i don't think anybody should be set up to fail
<_dove> i agree QTIP, that's cruel for the most part.
<QTIP> ...although I'm one hell of a tease ;-)
<kierana{DRFL}> lol
<krista-F> teasing is good !!
<Achilles{tr}> Can't really say this was a discussion of training techniques.
<paperclip> when with someone i freeze from worry of failing, i find repetition and understanding of my worries goes a long way.
<paperclip> lol Achilles{tr}, i blame me!
<krista-F> and me
<paperclip> lol
<_dove> There was some, Achilles......... more than some other nights
<Achilles{tr}> Guess we failed.. hey! that means we learned something!!
<paperclip> lmao
<`abi> we've apparently not been trained to stay on topic
<paperclip> lol @ abi
<kierana{DRFL}> well, sometimes the topic tends to mould itself to the needs of the ppl
<Achilles{tr}> I'm afraid I suck at being trained.
<QTIP> I'll give one example of one of my training "litanies" if you like
<krista-F> oh boy..back to class!!!!!!
<_dove> Trains well.......... brings Brie *ducks*
<paperclip> i want to hear it QTIP
* Achilles{tr} packs the cheddar
<QTIP> i'll just give the questions i ask. You can figure out the answers all by yourselves. ;-)
<QTIP> Q: Who owns you?
<QTIP> Q: Who gave you to me?
* _dove likes cheddar too
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<QTIP> Q: What can I do with my property?