April 2, 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

The log started shortly after the discussion began, so the first little bit is missing

<`slutkat`> spirituality is different...
<crysania^> smiles at SirDavid, then only sex for procreation?
<SirDavid> lol
<SirDavid> sex..ohhh yess i recall
<SkyDom> was there a slanderous comment?
* `slutkat` smiles
* |Karen didn't see one
<crysania^> sorry slutkat this one meant no disrepect
* dalian didn't see one either
<`slutkat`> people tend to confuse spirituality with religion
<`abi> for me it is very connected to my taoist beliefs .... yin and yang.... spiritual, but not religious
<`slutkat`> comments about catholics, nuns, etc.. have nada to do with one's spirituality
<Mltdwn_glory> agreed kat
<SkyDom> good fortune for us all that goodness has nothing to do with religion.
<|Karen> they do for some people, kat..
<crysania^> agree kat , just meant it as a joke, sorry again
<|Karen> some experience their spirituality within a religioius framework
* SirDavid wont say that he is Irish..then
<`slutkat`> this is true Karen
<luvs2btied> I think spirituality can be within a religious experience. But to say it only is is way too confining
<Mltdwn_glory> so we rule out that it is a religious connection alone...anyone care to share about their individual spirituallitly in bdsm....
<zaR``> zaR does recall hearing the phrase "onhhhhmygod" crossing her lips in a scene or two
<ont-sub> hmm part of it is the gift we give to one another.. dom/me or sub
<ont-sub> a special bond
<becky> so very true...
<ont-sub> beyond description
<Mltdwn_glory> I think it has a great deal to do with your personal growth and connection....
<Mltdwn_glory> the more open you are the more spiritual the experience...
<luvs2btied> I think spirituality is the essence of who we are but also transcends our mundane lives..makes us reach higher
<ont-sub> the excstacy.. and connection
<ont-sub> yupper
<earthmyst[ES]> great insight luvs
<ont-sub> part of it is flying too
<crysania^> i feel it has to do with being with peace with one's self
<ont-sub> yes its all part and parcel
<Mltdwn_glory> yes
<dalian> for me the act of sumission to him and his domination of me is the sacred marriage...the great rite clebrated in pagan circles...both give equally of each other to create the One, through perfect trust and perfect love
<|Karen> what does peace and personal growth and connection and transcendance....have to do with bdsm?
<Mltdwn_glory> that's spirituallity karen
<ont-sub> i bdsm is part of who we are
<ont-sub> at the core of us
<|Karen> right, M_g.....but what does it have to do with bdsm?
<ont-sub> not just surface games
<Mltdwn_glory> being in touch w/ that makes you more open to more expereinces
<Mltdwn_glory> it allows you to go farther...less triggers and obsticles....
<crysania^> if i feel at peace with what i am doing it is better
<zaR``> i am a kink,, that natual urge comes from within,, finding the right hand to turn the key, in effect ,, opens a pandoras box of sorts
<Mltdwn_glory> healthy mind/soul stufff
<Mltdwn_glory> EXACTLY
<Mltdwn_glory> oops
<Mltdwn_glory> :)
<ont-sub> i think its very difficult to put into words it can be all of this but so much more too
<Mltdwn_glory> yes it can....
<|Karen> yeah......and more power to all this great spirituality stuff but what difference does it make to the Kink? there are a ton of aethist Kinksters out there too
<Mltdwn_glory> I believe that it is as well a joint spirituallity....both parties
<Mltdwn_glory> nothing to do w/ atheism or christianity
<`slutkat`> bingo
<Mltdwn_glory> it's your own personal spirituallity...
<`abi> spirituality isn't necesarily related to belief in God
<luvs2btied> Its fine to be an atheist kinkster..cause spirituality doesn't have to have anything to do with religion
<crysania^> can we define what we thing spirituality is?
<crysania^> think even
<`slutkat`> your very essence.... the core of your being...
<Mltdwn_glory> good question
<`slutkat`> it was said previously very well...
<|Karen> okay...aethist...wrong word. what I'm trying to get across is that there are tons of people in Kink who don't give a hoot about spirituality in any form....so what does it have to do with bdsm....for you?
<Mltdwn_glory> exactly kat
<ont-sub> and there are tons of
<luvs2btied> They *may* have it and not even recognize they have it ...or use those words to define it
<ont-sub> ( okay big generalization ) only into surface play too
<ont-sub> games
<Mltdwn_glory> it has to do w/ being in touch w/. your innner self...open and accepting....
<Mltdwn_glory> purified I suppose you could say :0
<`slutkat`> mmm
<|Karen> that still doesn't link it to bdsm....can get that connection to inner self with a good walk in the trees
* `slutkat` sighs
<`abi> a walk in the trees .....or a BDSM relationship that moves you to the same level
<luvs2btied> You have to be open to it...want it
<zaR``> may i?
<Mltdwn_glory> or a good flogging karen....
<`abi> or becomes an expression of your spiritual connection in the same way that a walk in the forest does
<Mltdwn_glory> to each his own....
<crysania^> could the connection be if you are content with yourself easier to be open and accepting in D/s relationsip
<Mltdwn_glory> go ahead zar
<dalian> to allow another to take you to higher places unconditionally promotes a deeper connection to our own individual spirit as well as that of another
<Mltdwn_glory> we stated dalian...
<crysania^> agrees with dalian
<Mltdwn_glory> well even
<luvs2btied> well said dalian
<zaR``> as a walk in the trees fills your spirit, being able to open oneself and permit the release or capturing the spirit,, during a BDSM experience,, both are energys that flow thru us,, that energy may be defined as spiritual perhaps,,
* |Karen has had only one relationship that really opened her spiritual center and it ended brutally so....what's the point? it hardly seems worth the effort when the loss can strip you to the core...empty
* Mltdwn_glory nods
<BernieRoehl> Interesting, Karen -- that's the same sentiment that some people have expressed who have given up the religion they were raised with
<dalian> andis that not also a lesson Karen that was needed?
<`abi> because the opposite can also happen Karen ... nothing ventured, nothing gained ... spiritually or otherwise
<ont-sub> because it may not strip you but elevate you
<Mltdwn_glory> we understand how you feel karen....howeveer we are talking about a persons spiritual connection w/ bdsm here....
* `slutkat` tends to think that admitting one is a Dominant .. or a submissive... comes as a result of knowing one's very essence.. knowing oneself to the core... to the very spirit of one's being...
<|Karen> so am I M_G
<Mltdwn_glory> how it becomes and may be spiritual.
<ont-sub> for me its what tunes into my " core " and that helps me connect so intimateely
<|Karen> it was a bdsm relationship
<ont-sub> its like the dom and i are one
<|Karen> I don't do bdsm outside of relationships
<dalian> there are plenty out there that say they are sumissive or Dominant...but are not
<ont-sub> we kind of merge
<`slutkat`> this is true dalian... but generally people can tell ;-)
<Mltdwn_glory> My spirituality is not connected seolly to My partners happiness....there is much more w/in Me....
<ont-sub> both sharing the collective experience together
<Mltdwn_glory> that is Mine alone....
<|Karen> generally speaking, that is...
<crysania^> to give total control over oneself to another takes a great deal of faith
<ont-sub> hmmmmm yes
<Mltdwn_glory> you have to find innner peace and happiness w/in yourself be fore you can explore with others...
<`slutkat`> Karen, you may not *do* bdsm outside of a relationship.... but bdsm is a part of you... a part of your spirit.. something you have discovered about yourself...
* |Karen nods to crysania^
<Mltdwn_glory> for it to be healthy
<ont-sub> and the feeling cant be describe crysnaina
<SirDavid> very true crysania^
<zaR``> the baggage that we carry about with us, especially after an unpleasant experience,,we carry it because, it is apart of our spirit,, bruised, wounded,,beaten down, but we carry it ,,because it is our spirit,,,,denying it a chance to ever soar again, is tragic,,
<|Karen> good point, kat....but if I'm not doing it, is there any real connection being made...
<|Karen> ?
<Mltdwn_glory> and then yoiur work togher strengtheniung that innner faith and spirituallity
<`slutkat`> yes Karen.. its who YOU are....
<`abi> quite true slutkat ... and since my spirituality is part of me...it is something that I take into all my relationships, including BDSM
<`slutkat`> ayup abi ;-)
<dalian> me too abi
<Mltdwn_glory> exactly abi
<Mltdwn_glory> healthy innner mind healthy outer....
* |Karen trys to understand but keeps missing something...
<Mltdwn_glory> it is different for us all I am sure...but I think most agree that there is some spiritual aspects to theri bdsm play....
<Mltdwn_glory> so....
<Mltdwn_glory> can we come up with a list of different aspect s that are spiritual...
<Mltdwn_glory> froma personal perspective of course.
<crysania^> spirtitual is a part of how i feel about life, bdsm is how i live life, connected
<`abi> from a personal perspective ... dominance and submission are perfectly balanced yin and yan
<`abi> yang
<crysania^> how i feel affects how i live
<`abi> because of that, it helps to centre me
<dalian> and with abi's statement create true balance from which the relationship can soar
<Mltdwn_glory> I find that the begining...for forplay of a scene very spiritual.///I take that time to connect with My inner self...and then can focus on connect w/ My slave....but must have Mine first...
<|Karen> can you expand on that crysania?
<dalian> both partners go through a grounding so to speak in the beginning of a scene
<Mltdwn_glory> agreed abi
<crysania^> if life is in turmoil and feeling uncentered or unconnected, cannot feel comfortable giving myself
<Mltdwn_glory> yes....I agree you go thru something....
<Mltdwn_glory> I agree crys....you have to have a certain level of spiritual centering....
* |Karen nods, just trys to absorb...
<Mltdwn_glory> or you will not be apt to open up as much or as widely
<|Karen> every time I feel centered enough to open up and give....I get burned.
<crysania^> smiles yes, Mltdwn_glory better with words, thank You
<`abi> ....as well, there is a certain focus that comes with subspace .... a meditative quality that achieves the same kind of clarity of thought
<BernieRoehl> And yes, for some submissives the process of giving themselves to another helps to re-center them
<|Karen> so feeling centered and at peace with myself....is not a good thing. it has, to date, led to nothing but pain.
<Mltdwn_glory> cleansing>?
<concubinary> i have to trust in order to give myself. If i don't have some incentive to trust, to push my spirit then i don't see what i am spiritually capable of.
* Mltdwn_glory smiles at crys
<crysania^> Karen: the problem is not with You but with those that misused Your trust
<crysania^> do not give up feeling at peace with yourself, it is a great loss to you
<Mltdwn_glory> for glory it is a great deal of a cleansing type expereince....for Me it is very draining....and that is very spiritual as for us.
<dalian> but if you don't open up, out of fear of being burned...you will never experience not have the opportunity that feeling of peace
<|Karen> that may be somewhat true in the causing, crysania, but it is not true in the result.
<Mltdwn_glory> what result....
<concubinary> Sometimes people are so spiritually/emotionally injured that it's really too much to trust. i think for most it's possible to do it 'again', to be able to try one more time but for some people.... they are too injured.
<|Karen> well, there's something to be said for the math of it, the science...if A leads to B, and B sucks....don't do A
<crysania^> i am eternal optimist for every bad must be a good to follow
<crysania^> so i keep looking for the good
<Mltdwn_glory> or at least something to learn in the bad or from it...
<OT_> It would be never the same A or you could be choosing a type A all the time repeating an endless circle
* |Karen smiles a bit 'I'm just too damn stupid to give up on A 'though...I'm in pain, but I just can't keep myself from continuing to try A'
<concubinary> i am too crysania but there have been times when it would have been foolish for me to trust - i couldn't afford to be hurt at that moment
<`abi> since pain is inevitable, I suppose a valid question is "how does one go about repairing a wounded soul?"
<crysania^> then that is your knowledge of your limits stepping in to protect you
* |Karen would love to know the answer to that one, abi
<Mltdwn_glory> karennn...perhaps you should look at b and figure out how yuou can help it take you to c....\
<Mltdwn_glory> IMO
<crysania^> friend help
<dalian> forgiveness is the hardest thing we ever have to do
<Mltdwn_glory> that is the part of growing from things...
<dalian> or at least release from the hurt which takes time
<|Karen> interesting idea M_g.....there has to be some use for this shit after all....rich compost, at least...
<`abi> I should imagine that the answer is somewhat different for everyone...but for certain, spiritual healing of any sort requires trust and belief in yourself and others
<Mltdwn_glory> you redirect you negatives and find the posative....
<concubinary> it depends on whether it's (the hurt) a result of one relationship gone bad or many experiences, a lifetime of being burned....
<crysania^> some hurt can never go away totally, but hopefully we replace it with a new and better memory
<`abi> or learn to walk with it in peace crysania^
<concubinary> If someone has a lifetime of abuse or similiar forgiving and moving on aren't enough - there are integral parts of the spirit that are wounded
<crysania^> smiles at abi, yes
<zaR``> or at least get a good luggage tote
<Mltdwn_glory> we get hurt...it sucks...we have to choose to stagnate or move on...and that is where the spirituallity comes in to play.....
<`abi> lol zaR`` ...what a good idea :)
<|Karen> how does one 'walk in peace' with great pain?
<Mltdwn_glory> you have to look inside and find that peace....
<`abi> by acknowledging it as part of a larger picture Karen
<dalian> you embrace the pain for what it is..and then move forward
<Mltdwn_glory> exactly abi.dalian
<earthmyst[ES]> i think trying to walk in peace helps you get thru that great pain...a direction
* |Karen thinks...'maybe it's kinda like....cumming from pain in a scene...if you can transmute emotional pain into something good like that...'
<dalian> it is not an easy task...but is achievable
<concubinary> Walk in peace when the moments come Karen but i think just ignoring the pain is a bad idea - it comes out in other places, messes up relationships in indirect ways
<dalian> very much so
* |Karen nods....doesn't try to ignore it...just wants it to go away.
* |Karen refuses to welcome it.
<concubinary> i understand
<zaR``> personally,, a storage locker would be a good idea,, free up yourself from carrying the burden of the past ,,if not for abit,, a lesson learned is not to be wasted,,but, no sense in berating ourselves with it continuiously
<dalian> it won't go away unless you let it
<ont-sub> for me it also is connected to identity and gender as well
<Mltdwn_glory> so back to spiritality....
<concubinary> it is amazing to be able to overcome it if even for a short time especially in bdsm, it's rewarding, like finding a whole new part of 'self'
<|Karen> how so, ont-sub?
<crysania^> sprituality to me is just how i feel about life and myself, it is something i can reach inside myself for when i need it
* OT_ things as some one gives you the pain, and some one else could help ypu to tolarate and get rid of the pain, some else could help you to heal
<`abi> I consider painful experiences to be part of who I am ... in the same way that I have darkness and light , I have pain and pleasure, joy and sorrow ... I need to acknowledge and welcome all those parts of myself in BDSM and in every other aspect of my life...that's a good part of what spirituality is for me
<|Karen> I have often wondered....if some people in the Scene are using casual play and pain to purge themselves of emotional pain....what do y'all think?
<ont-sub> well most people know i am transexual ( pre-op ) and the feminine is something that is also at the core of who i am
<ont-sub> hard to explain but for me its all interrelated..
<dalian> that may even hold true for those in more commited relationships...to feel the physical pain they are experiencing
<dalian> not just casual play
<crysania^> spirituality is a difficult subject means different things to everyone
<rbrraincoat> Hi there
<dalian> i liken a scene to a guided meditation
<|Karen> could you expand on that dalian?
* `abi smiles at crysania^ ... you'll find that's the conclusion we draw about most of the things we discuss here ... the joy is in sharing our different perceptions of things ...
<crysania^> discussion and sharing is good for most every topic
<dalian> in both...you are allowing another to take you to other realms of consciousness...you essentially are in their control...subspace is like trance
<|Karen> ahhh...that makes sense..
<Mltdwn_glory> exactly...
<Mltdwn_glory> and some ppl frase that as a spiritual experience..
<dalian> sex magic in bdsm is almost the same as sex magick...the focus is entirely different
<dalian> subspace is spritual for me
<Mltdwn_glory> there are many aspects that are spiritual....
<Mltdwn_glory> I think it has a lot to do w/ how you percieve yoiurself and your value you plavce on the lifestyle...
<Mltdwn_glory> what level you take it to....for lack of better term...
<|Karen> thanks everyone...can't say I get it yet, but it was interesting
<dalian> even after the scene has ended...the grounding that is necessary afterwards is the same as when you come out of a guided meditaion
* BernieRoehl glances at His watch and notices it's now 10 pm
<concubinary> Wow time has flown!
<dalian> interesting discussion ;)
<canplay> that may be why You hang on to hurt so long Karen, you should look within and not to others perhaps, find Your spirituality
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to Mltdwn_glory for handling the chat!
<|Karen> ummm, I do, canplay.
<tru_s{Ach}> i think we each need to define the parameters of 'spirituality' for ourselves...and i'm not talking Webster's either
<|Karen> thanks, M_g for pinch-hitting...