March 31, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion
* DarkAngel^{rt} Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick.
<jewel`{F}> MasterJ hello Sir
<rhiannon{KO}> hello MasterJ
<pandora``> hello MasterBaiter
<rhiannon{KO}> hello RoryTate.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> those who wish ,, pls change your nick now to remail annonamous
<MasterJ> jan sends you a hug jewel
<DarkAngel^{rt}> is anyone logging for Bernie ?
* Fyre{j} is now knows as Anonymous
<DarkAngel^{rt}> shouldnt that be Abominable Fyre{j} ?
<jewel`{F}> MasterJ i think You may have me confused with another jewel Sir
<rhiannon{KO}> wow, hello lvn8all. ltns..
<lvn8all> hi r :) what is up:)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> so does anyone have any newbie type questions or points to raise ?
<rhiannon{KO}> not much, ;) and whats new with you?
<MasterJ> oh sorry I have I didn't notice (F)
<RoryTate> so is this IRChaos or is there a moderated discussion going on? :-)
<lvn8all> not to much just sitting relaxing...
* jewel`{F} smiles to MasterJ
<jewel`{F}> tis okay Sir
<DarkAngel^{rt}> happy Chaos RoryTate
* RoryTate laughs
<DarkAngel^{rt}> care to ask a newbie type question RoryTate ?
* DarkAngel^{rt} thinks real hard (ouch) ,, relaxes ,, and waits for a question for the group
<LdyAkilah> question, why is s/m confused with d/s?
<RoryTate> sure. how do you make those nice knotted handles on the top end of floggers? :-)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> interesting question LdyAkilah ,,,
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no idea RoryTate
<DarkAngel^{rt}> although RoryTate ,, I have seen websites that explain it
<DarkAngel^{rt}> perhaps ,,,, as a newbie toymaker ,, you could do some web searches
<DarkAngel^{rt}> what is the difference for you LdyAkilah ?
<MasterJ> Well DarkAngel I know that my sub being the shy type that she is has difficulty asking the many ?s she has of other subs. Have we ever had newbie nights for subs
<EchoesII> *askes*,,, does any O/one else observe that perhaps F/female "newbies/unknown" are accepted into t' faith much quicker than say a M/male "newbie/unknown" ????
<MasterBaiter> LdyAkilah, would you expand on that a bit...do you see s/m put forward where d/s is expected, or vice versa, or something else?
<MasterJ> Ie a munch for newbies
<DarkAngel^{rt}> yup MasterJ ,,, tonight ,, for subs,, for Dom/mes and sWiTcHeS
<LdyAkilah> for me, d/s is the mental construct of the relationship, s/m is more of the physical of what we do
<MasterJ> was thinking of something other than online
<LdyAkilah> d/s can be without s/m and vice versa...quite often alot of s/m without d/s
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I do notice that on line EchoesII ,,, but I dont see that at munches or R/L
<scorpioman888> Hello everyone
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that describes somewhat my relationship LdyAkilah ,, but might not describe it as well for other relationships
<RoryTate> i think s/m and d/s are confused in the same way that a distributor and a carburettor are confused in a car. Unless you're a machanic, you might not know. It's just not common enough knowledge, and many people are too excited when they're thinking about it to think about it and/or afraid to ask.
<RoryTate> err-mEchanic - yikes
<DarkAngel^{rt}> for some d/s and s/m might be entwined too close to tell apart ,, and other relationships they might be quite foreign to each other
* DarkAngel^{rt} Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick.
<RoryTate> agreed, DA
<LdyAkilah> why do you say that DA?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> each relationship needs to find thier own definitions ,, I dont really ascribe to a group definition
<LdyAkilah> are you saying that for some the only way they can relate to each other in a d/s sense is physical?
<MasterJ> Yes very much so DarkAngel It has become almost an individual interpretation
<LdyAkilah> i disagree to a certain point...there has to be some basis of definition, otherwise it's a free for all and no one can discuss things
* `Ronin- yawns
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no LdyAkilah ,, I mean that for me d/s is very close to my s/m ,, my relationship feels that way ,, but I have good friends who are mostly d/s ,, with no s/m ,, others who are mostly s/m , and very little d/s
<RoryTate> and to not to EchoesIII - i'm male, and found that i was accepted immediately into this local group of folks where i live. i was quite surprised at how they get out the tractor beam and pull you in :-)
<Masterguny> there are common points but the balance is open to individual interpitation of those points
<MasterJ> Discussion isn't a problem if your interpretation is stated at the outset
<RoryTate> err - note... what is WRONG with me?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well we certanly can agree on what d/s is ,, and what s/m is LdyAkilah ,, but you asked how they intermingle ,, sorry that is perticular to each relationship is my point
<LdyAkilah> i asked why they get confused with each other
<LdyAkilah> perhaps it's more because everyone is putting their own definition to it?
<MasterJ> Like any definition of terms there is always a grey area
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well each are involved in each relationship on a level and intensity defined by that relationship
<MasterJ> This I believe is where the difference arises
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I think confusion is only from the viewpoint of others looking in
<RoryTate> because to many, all that b/d s/m/d/s stuff is this big, fuzzy, kinky ball of attitude that people don't really talk about much. And when you don't stop to analyze it, you never really figure out the differences. But there is still a taboo to thinking about it to many.
<Masterguny> Terms change as we change as well
<LdyAkilah> if they are pretty much the same, why has there always been b&d and s&m? or even the lovely umbrella term of today bdsm instead of just s/m?
<Fyre{j}> ok ..... now I'm confused d/s is dominance/submission and s/m is sado/masochism ... or is it know slave/Master in the new textbooks?
<MasterBaiter> I don't think that anyone is saying that they're the same, LdyAkilah.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> we certainly are an amalgamation of various kinks and relationships ,, all under a general banner of BDSM
<MasterBaiter> I picture a big Venn diagram, from junior-high math class. Three overlapping circles.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> although LdyAkilah ,, you might wish to peruse the logs on the ehbc.ca site ,,, as this topic has been covered before
<Masterguny> what it tonights topic DA?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> do we have any newbies here tonight ?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> newbie night Masterguny
<stephen> new to the channel?
<scorpioman888> Me..
* Kilted_One raises his hand
<jewel`{F}> DA i guess that depends on what You will call a newbie Sir
<DarkAngel^{rt}> "Newbie Night -- Bring Your Questions!"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> yes Kilted_One ?
<Masterguny> Don't do that KO we'll all get hit with lightnin
<DarkAngel^{rt}> what do you think a newbie is jewel`{F} ?
<Kilted_One> you asked if there were any newbies
<DarkAngel^{rt}> do you have any questions then scorpioman888 ?
* rhiannon{KO} whispers to DA, Master is a "born again"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I said newbies KO ,,, not nudies
<DarkAngel^{rt}> and put that kilt down
<scorpioman888> this is my frist time ..i was searching through the net and I found the link and the info so I decide to join..if you don't mind
<DarkAngel^{rt}> certainly scorpioman888,, and welcome
<rhiannon{KO}> but then i can't see DA...
<jewel`{F}> well i feel i am fairly new to the formal lifestyle Sir, but i have been very lucky to have made some wonderful F/friends that are willing to help me when i have had questions
<DarkAngel^{rt}> what questions have you asked jewel`{F} ?
<RoryTate> i don't really think the circles overlap, if you're talking about strict definitions. d/s is one person telling another person what to do, with that person being committed to obey. s/m is one person causing pain or discomfort to another, and in some cases, the whole issue of "obeying" doesn't figure into it at all. it's about one person liking the rush of pain and another person liking to dole it out. that's my two cents...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> did you have a question scorpioman888 ? or just interested in watching ?
<Kilted_One> you have to have a mind to "mind" and we have lost all of our minds "well some of us anyway"
<scorpioman888> i'll be a quiet for now..just read and learn
* DarkAngel^{rt} had a mind,,,, once
<LdyAkilah> thank you for your thoughts on that RoryTate
<MasterJ> That is the point I was making earlier. If you make the right friends early it helps but for those who are very shy it can be difficult
<DarkAngel^{rt}> they are a terrible thing to loose ,,,, anyone seen mine ?
<MasterJ> been gone too long to find now DA
<jewel`{F}> well right now i don't have any questions but i would like to say that You having the smaller more private play rooms at DAL is a great way for those new to public play to try it is great
<DarkAngel^{rt}> true MasterJ ,, and I am shy ,, but the community certainly opened up for me and made me feel welcome
<victoria_angel{Flint}> DA shy - oh really.... <wink>
<RoryTate> and now he's the SUPREME RULER OF DAL!!
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I am totaly against them jewel`{F} ,,, KO is forcing me ,, the big meanie
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no ,, I am the Dictator for Life ,, KO is the Supreme Commander
<MasterBaiter> RoryTate: but there are also those who play with both, the d/s and the s/m (and the b/d, for that matter). They'd be in the overlap. The people in your example would be over in the non-overlapped part of the "s/m" circle.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> dont you people ever read Calvin & Hobbs ?
* Kilted_One puts on his "wee tought man look....and straightens his kilt"
<LdyAkilah> of course there is always overlap, but one can practise d/s without s/m and vice versa yet it seems to many now, they are one and the same
* Fyre{j} plays Calvin Ball everyday at work
<stephen> I most certainly have the three overlapping circles
<Masterguny> yup and you do look like hobbs
* jewel`{F} looks at KO
<MistressSarcastica> RoryTate, what do you make of the submissives who hate pain, but take mine to indluge my sadism? Don't ds and sm overlap then?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well ,, lets ask this then ,,, what was one of the important questions anyone had when they WERE a newbie ?
<jewel`{F}> well if it was Your idea Sir i think it is a good one
<stephen> many many different folks, each relationship is unique - that is the key
* Kilted_One looks at jewel.......,and winks>
<RoryTate> [MasterBaiter] but i like ice cream and i like tuna sandwiches. does that mean the ice cream and tuna sandwich circles overlap? :-)
<^^^^zaR^^^^> what about the Dominant who is a masochist, and orders his submissive to push that dang needle thru His nipple
<DarkAngel^{rt}> only if you are preggers RoryTate
<^^^^zaR^^^^> ;)
<LdyAkilah> they must be getting something out of it MistressSarcastica, otherwise their needs are not being met and would not stay if they are not into pain at all
<DarkAngel^{rt}> jewel`{F} ,,, are you going to be a newbie for public play ?
<stephen> how about this question> where is the best place for meeting like-minded folks?
<LdyAkilah> munches
* jewel`{F} looks to Master
<MasterJ> I would agree
<Kilted_One> actually it was a group decision.....we debated for hours and hours and hours on what to do (we had to do something while we waited on the snow stopping)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> good question stephen ,,, personally I have a bias for Munches ,, no pressure ,, no fet wear etc
<jewel`{F}> not sure DA Master hasn't told me yet if W/we are to play at DAL
<RoryTate> [MistressSar...] no. the sub is being submissive and letting you do it to please you. that's different than if they get off on it - which is the more textbook version of masochism.
<MasterJ> A suggestion for munches would be to not only have a greeter but some available to sit with newbies
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Brother KO,, I thought it was that we were waiting for the females to finally stop watching the porn channel and join us to leave ?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> a good one MasterJ ,, and I think we have some good Hosts ,, I know I have made myself available to do just that
<MasterBaiter> I think that's her point, RoryTate: she's doing s/m with someone, but for d/s reasons.
<Kilted_One> you mean that white stuff wasnt snow???
<jewel`{F}> munches are deffinately the best place to meet like minded people in a nonpreasured atmosphere
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I find it much easier and less stressfull if one is introduced to 5 or 10 people at the start
<LdyAkilah> so the d/s reasons then are the mental aspects
<MistressSarcastica> That's my point, RoryTate. And if I had the submissive bound while being tortured, all three branches would intersect.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> have you been to a Munch yet stephen ?
<Masterguny> Or the host do some introduction so the newbie doesn't walk into a click of us them
<MasterJ> agree but then perhaps sat with someone rather to just be left at that point
<stephen> no I haven't
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well I never leave em hanging MasterJ,,,, actually that isnt true ,, I did just that to the slut who now wears my collar ,, but I was working at the time ,,,, I did introduce her and start her conversing with others before leaving
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well stephen ,, allow me to describe a Munch for you
* DarkAngel^{rt} Munches/Brunches are informal social gatherings where you can sit down and share some food and drink with like-mind people. If you've not attended a munch before, we encourage you to do so! It offers a relaxed social gathering for those of us interested in this lifestyle, both singles and couples, with a wide variety of ages and interests.
* DarkAngel^{rt} No scening or play occurs at munches/brunches. This isn't a play party, nor a dating service, more of a discussion group. It's simply a group of friends with common interest, who meet for dinner and/or drinks, to talk and laugh in a casual atmosphere.
* DarkAngel^{rt} says To find out about Munches and Brunches, Play Parties, fetish nights, or Workshops in the Southern Ontario area, both http://www.ehbc.ca and http://www.dssg.org have good calendars that list the events that are happening. If you decide to go to one be sure to tell us, if I am there I will keep an eye out for you, so I can say hi.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> whew ,, damn I type fast
<LdyAkilah> fast typer
<LdyAkilah> lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol
<RoryTate> nah, i think that's the d and the s in d/s... and the s as in sadism, but without the masochism. it's one circle and part of another.
<victoria_angel{Flint}> DA comes prepared...
<Masterguny> I had a person come to our party last month..I introduced him to people and he sat with us and others all night..he has been attending parties since the days of boots and no one ever took the time to show him around
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I do try to come
* Kilted_One turns the popup detector off just in case the noise frightens anyone
* DarkAngel^{rt} looks down ,,, hey ,, no popups here
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Masterguny, have you ever dircted newbies to some of the helpful community sites ? .. I find a few good explanations there
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that is one thing I do try to do
<Fyre{j}> Hmmmm very strange. My flood detectory went off but jewel` isn't in My lap
<DarkAngel^{rt}> change your pants Fyre{j}
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol
<Masterguny> I do if I can rely on them ..I can't with DSSG
<jewel`{F}> but my head is Master, i must be drooling
* ^^^^zaR^^^^ thinks its a munch can be a good place to figure out who is who and what kink they might be interested in,, so if your not looking for a sadistic partner, and more of a mentor/Master/Dominant partner, you can do some screening before you approach the wrong party with hints that you might be interested in further discussion or other
<Masterguny> I do with EHBC
<^^^^zaR^^^^> or visa versa
<Masterguny> or the lists
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I give both,, I have only ever had one web problem with DSSG, but they are now looking for a new server
<RoryTate> BBL... sorry
<DarkAngel^{rt}> a good site,, not sure it is fair to blame any site for a server problem ,,,lol,, look at us with Yahoo
<DarkAngel^{rt}> would you considder going to a local munch stephen ?
<Masterguny> I asked DSSD to include our party on the calender they refused said a link to northbound was good enough..that ended that conversation
<MasterJ> Have you decided on a new venue Mastergunny?
<Kilted_One> DA, I meant to tell you what the bar keep said to me that night after I asked him if he was kewl with all of the 'discussion' that was being done ......he said "Oh that is OK I'm used to the Drag Queens and their nights"!!!
<DarkAngel^{rt}> do you find many newbies at your event Masterguny ?
<Masterguny> I think the Fly on the Thursday..I really would like the saturday its finding a venue in Downtown for that night
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol ,,, Kilted_One ,,, he must be psycic
<Masterguny> Lots
<MasterJ> Well I met two when I was there last time
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well all ,, we have 15 minutes left ,, any other newbie questions or points ?
<Masterguny> I look after them introduce them to people talk to them they feel much better after that
<DarkAngel^{rt}> kewl Masterguny, I like that new people feel welcome
<MasterJ> Yes Mastergunny I must compliment you publicly you do a good job of that
<Masterguny> they always are with me and the introductions to others makes it so they know people there and don't just stand in a corner
<DarkAngel^{rt}> My opinion is our community is an easy one to enter ,, due to the friendliness of people, the multiple choices of Munches and events
<Masterguny> thank you MasterJ
<^^^^zaR^^^^> know who you are going to play with before you do, get references, be sure to clue the DM's in on that you are going to be a new casual partner before the scene (even if the Dom/Top doesnt) and approach private new play with caution caution and more, and use a checklist to preset your limits. And remember,, its supposed to hurt
<MasterJ> & he even accomodated my fireplay (smiling)
<LdyAkilah> get many references!!
<Masterguny> Is your party going to Continue to be second Saturday DA?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> very good point ^^^^zaR^^^^ ,, to clue a DM in on a new casual play at an event ,, I never thought of that ,, ty
<Masterguny> THat I do :-)
* ^^^^zaR^^^^ thinks too many new subs, assume the Dom/Top will, excercise your right to safety always
<^^^^zaR^^^^> ohhhh and thats not just for newbies,, if i were to consider a new style of play, even though experienced in other faccets, i would still be a newbie, and would still say, hey, please keep an eye out for me
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I work shifts Masterguny, it will , as always be in the middle of the month ,, as I actively assist the DSSG Werx (4th Sat) and the KinkZone (Windsor 3rd Sat)
<jewel`{F}> ^^^^zaR^^^^ do you think that maybe too many newbie subs don't realise that they can speak up?
<LdyAkilah> maybethey do for physical safety zar...but not always the case emotionally
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that we happen to find a Saturday venue is DAMN great luck
<Masterguny> It use to be on a Sunday? How do you feel about the fact in May kill The Miss Fet night?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> there are lots of events ,, and only 4 saturdays
<MasterJ> Some certainly do jewel
<^^^^zaR^^^^> thats why I continue to speak out, thinking that only a slave does not have "rights", but entering into that "slave" relationship would have already have consisted of many lengthy discussions with the potential Master
<DarkAngel^{rt}> kill KKBB ? I think not Masterguny
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that is a tad of an overstatment
<LdyAkilah> kkbb will kill itself
<Masterguny> YOu have taken 4 of there 5 DM's and 95% of the people that I know attend that party
<MasterJ> very true
<DarkAngel^{rt}> do you think I have to stay on a sunday Masterguny ? and if so can you tell me why ?
<Masterguny> They are trying to save it LdyAkilah and this has really hurt that recovery
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Masterguny, I take offence at your acusation. there hasent been a DAL for 6 months
<LdyAkilah> they may not be able to bounce back...there are many who won't go back there
<DarkAngel^{rt}> please do not create conflict where there never was any Masterguny, you do little service to KKBB
<^^^^zaR^^^^> i thought this was about newbie questions, not bashing events
<rhiannon{KO}> well, they are two parties soooo far a part as far as miles go...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I agree ^^^^zaR^^^^ ,, ty for the point dear
<Masterguny> Why not the 1st Saturday there is no party then?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well lets get back to the discusiopn ,, I appologize to all
* EchoesII *indeed*,,,
<DarkAngel^{rt}> other than Munches and events ,,, where does a newbie enter the lifestyle ?
* Kilted_One frowns and thinks that 1. People will go where they want to go when they want to go. 2. There are more that 100 kinky ppl in this area that can attend "both" venues if they so desire. 3. there is over and hour and a half driving distance between both venues, that is quite a distance
* DarkAngel^{rt} points to the "net"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> now ,,, my question ,,, how does a newbie move from fantacy to reality ?
<MasterJ> We are very fortunate in Southern ON Compared to many places we have a good number of events
<scorpioman888> good Q DA..
<DarkAngel^{rt}> how did we ? I went to a Munch ,, I listened,, I asked questions ,,, I learned from the answers
<DarkAngel^{rt}> then I went home and thought up new questions ,,,lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> how did each of you ?
<jewel`{F}> by being very brave and meeting someone offline from a chat room, or going to local munches after finding out about them from the net or publications
<LdyAkilah> from fantasy to reality...discuss it with your partner
<DarkAngel^{rt}> what if you are looking for a partner LdyAkilah ?
<MasterJ> I was involved before so took my newbie to a munch
<victoria_angel{Flint}> probably it is a combination of meeting the right person at the right time, also attending different functions, to see what you are comfortable with
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I agree victoria_angel{Flint}
<Masterguny> I did not mean for you to take offence... I am just conserned over the potential loss of a local party my appologies to the room
<jewel`{F}> DA i got involved offline by being the safety call for a friend Sir
* ^^^^zaR^^^^ thinks extreme caution should be used before leaping off line to real time and meeting someone,, munches (many of them) will help to weed out those who might either be too intense a player or um, an unknown and therefore, non referenced
<MasterJ> Would almost be nice to have a list of contact people associated with each munch who you could plan on meeting there That way you could talk to them ahead of time & possibly feel more at ease
<DarkAngel^{rt}> safety call is a good idea for that first jump ,,, good point jewel`{F}
<DarkAngel^{rt}> there almost is MasterJ, the dssg.org and ehbc.ca site give contacts
<breeze{JFC}> when i have the time i plan to set something up like that for the DSSG
<Kilted_One> I have met ppl who are attending their first munch and "walked in" with them so that they avoid that initial fear thing
<breeze{JFC}> safe call network
<EchoesII> it was taught,,, there was Bondage/Slavery,,,, Submission/Mastery,,,
<EchoesII> in such a Master may use/have to induce pain in t' nurturing and teachings of a "one",,,, it did not reflect that E/either Master or submissive were masochistic,,, ****
<MasterJ> yes thats what i mean KO
<EchoesII> *such is t' ponderance,,, can a "painslut" be titled has a "submissive",,, and a Master compared to a dom ????****
<jewel`{F}> i got lucky by having that friend as a safety net with me as it was then that i met Master
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I always show up (ok ,,, not ALWAYS) early ,, and recomend newbies to show up early ,,, it is easier to walk onto a room with 3 or 4 people ,,, as apposed to going an hour late to a full room of strangers
<MasterJ> good point
<DarkAngel^{rt}> almost done folks ,,, any closing thoughts ?
<jewel`{F}> DA have You noticed an increase in newbies at the London and Woodstock munches over the last few months Sir?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no overall increase jewel`{F} ,,, we always get newbies ,,, I encourage it
<MasterJ> May we all remeber our first event & sure we take time to welcome newbies!
<jewel`{F}> DA i try to as well ~grins~
<DarkAngel^{rt}> excellent point MasterJ, I like that point
<DarkAngel^{rt}> any last thoughts ?
* Fyre{j} makes a note to stop greeting the newbies as "fresh meat"
<scorpioman888> I dont' have a Partner.and it's hard to go from fantacy to reality .. for me..I'm shy "at the beginning" and I don't think I could come to a munch alone
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ok Fyre{j} ,,, and on that thought ,, I will close the log
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I would like to thank all for an interesting discussion ,,, I will pass the log on to Bernie to post