March 30, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Online fantasy or Online Classroom?". The moderator is _dove. Enjoy!
<_dove> There are just a few of us here, and i don't have a script prepared, so please feel free to jump in - will make things much more interesting *s*
<_dove> This channel's chatters are mostly associated with a real time group,. There are many MANY chat rooms on the internet that are of a D/s or BDSM nature, where fantasies often become realities.
<_dove> i am submissive, and discovered this lifestyle, first on the the internet, then in real time. i learned things online that i thought were fact, when in fact, they could not have been further from the truth.
<Justice> or start and end as fantasies judging by some of the ones I have hard/read
<_dove> Agreed Justice, those are safer *s*
<jewel`{F}> i think depending on what the chatter is looking for it can be both
<_dove> i was lucky, i met some real-life people who answered my questions, and have helped me tremendously.
<_dove> Others have not been so lucky, and have been seriously injured in real life, because they "learned" from an online chat room.
<jewel`{F}> if online is all a person wants or can have for what ever their reasons are, it can be fantasy to a point bringing some of it over in to reality
<_dove> In my opinion, online can be a good thing.
<_dove> When we see a "scene" where a giant snake eats a poor subbie alive...... it's not a stretch to figure out fantasy from reality.
<jewel`{F}> in some rooms one can also by chatting or even just watching learn a lot about the lifestyle, the local scene, protocol, and etiqute
<_dove> When we *see* someone pick up a whip and just swing to their heart's content, it's tougher to distinguish reality from fantasy from potential danger
<_dove> Absolutely, jewel - agreed.
<_dove> My question to the room is this -- where do we, as real-life lifestylers, draw the line, and how do we point out that the "scene" being played out is not realistic, for example?
<_dove> We can't be policing, and some are there just to have fun, but i promise you, there are some there that are reading and taking notes. i know - i was one of them.
<sprin2Life> i still am
<sprin2Life> one of the ones taking notes
* _dove lends sprin2Life her notebook
<sprin2Life> lol, ty dove:)
<Justice> did it have negative consequences dove or did you realize what you read was not valid?
<_dove> 2 things happened to me, early on.
<_dove> 1 - even after asking questions, i determined (incorrectly) that a submissive must endure pain
<_dove> 2 - i went to a Dom that i had met online, he didn't have the experience he claimed to have - correction - he had "online" experience. i learned to top in a hurry.
<_dove> i consider myself to be an intelligent woman, and i do my homework, so to speak. i also believed more than i should have.
<subleo> i am still lokin for my mistress
<_dove> subleo, i'd rather be alone than go through being in the hands of an inexperienced dominant again
<subleo> thats tru
<_dove> The online world was my textbook. i learned the hard way, and was lucky i wasn't seriously hurt. It has become a pet peeve of mine now. i bristle when i see someone new being roped into unrealistic fantasies that may become their reality
<_dove> This channel, and its regulars, have been my salvation many times.
<pretti_n_kink> _dove with care it can be an amazing resource as well
<Justice> is it just online dove? or do casual get-togethers like munches foster wrong impressions too?
<_dove> pretti_n_kink, it IS an amazing resource *smiles* Without online, i'd have never found this side of myself
<subleo> do u guys know of any mistresses?
<jewel`{F}> there are far too many online that belive what they have read in erotic fiction, that it is all about the sex and the kink, when they go offline, with out the knowledge of the safe way to do things it is like a bomb waiting to go off
* _dove nods
<sprin2Life> i don't think casual get togethers foster wrong impressions, they allow U/us to get to know O/one another as ppl first, then as lifestylers
<_dove> been there, jewel, done that....... the t-shirt's in tatters
* pretti_n_kink is using the t-shirt as a rag
<sprin2Life> <<<<<,using it as a bandana
<_dove> Justice, i can't speak for the munches here, i've not attended them. i would think they can be great places to meet like-minded people in a safe environment
<jewel`{F}> there are likely far too many that have been there, and are ashamed to admit it
<_dove> i'll admit it jewel, if it helps just one submissive
<jewel`{F}> i do too dove
<sprin2Life> i am proud to admit that i have been to a couple of brunches
<_dove> This is my opinion only, but i think we owe it to each other, even if we never meet face to face
<pretti_n_kink> perhaps one of the biggest mistakes with those discovering *online* is their desire to rush out and try the *real* thing
<jewel`{F}> i started out online chatting in a "personals" website
<_dove> oh absolutely -- i've seen (and like) the term "subbie fever"
<jewel`{F}> pretti_n_kink even those that start out offline seem to be in such a rush to do it all
<_dove> i remember that feeling of NEEDING to serve, just like i saw online -- common sense went south
<pretti_n_kink> another factor that being online one feels safer exposing their deepest thoughts and desire which creates connections that are difficult to find face to face
<_dove> i can understand that jewel, when we first discover this lifestyle, there are a ton of emotions that are new to us
<_dove> Yes, it's safer, to a point
<pretti_n_kink> to the point of meeting _dove
<jewel`{F}> now that i am chatting in IRC i stick to "real" rooms 99% of the time, i will give out links to good educational sites, to local websites, and always always push the safety net when meeting offline
<sprin2Life> but at what point does it become unsafe?
<_dove> Unfortunately, sometimes it gets out of hand, and an online stalker is born. Because of the lack of physical presence, some people let their guard down, and give out information that can lead people to their front doors
<pretti_n_kink> when one suffers the feeling in the belly and forgets safety before meeting sprin2Life
<sprin2Life> i have met an online stalker, only online'
<_dove> well said pretti_n_kink
<sprin2Life> he scared me, so called it quits
<_dove> Think of the SlaveMaster incident in Kansas
<_dove> He was predominantly online to find his victims
<pretti_n_kink> i agreed to meet a man i suddenly was unsure of... he did not show but i was terrified i had been followed etc... i never did it again
<pretti_n_kink> luckier than some... but we all have these stories
<_dove> i understand it can happen in real life too, but the scope is narrower. With the internet, the world is at our fingertips, literally
<Justice> do you think that anyone could have and should have talked you out of your decision pretti_n_kink?
<pretti_n_kink> in the end Justice... it was my good manners that made me go... i knew i should not have and tried to cancel
<_dove> Justice, a few tried to talk me out of it, i justified every step i took *s*
<pretti_n_kink> it was public etc but still
<sprin2Life> my common sense & his stupidity made me say no
<pretti_n_kink> i do think we each know or at least have a feeling that things are not right
<_dove> That you said no is a good thing sprin2Life...... i had subbie fever, he was breathing, that was a good start *g*
<sprin2Life> yes, that was my feeling
<Justice> good point pretti - we can't let good manners get in the way of our safety
<sprin2Life> he was claiming he wanted to sub
<jewel`{F}> there will always be, no matter how much we push the safety factors, those that have that adolescent attitude of "it will never happen to me" sometimes they get lucky, sometimes they don't
<sprin2Life> but something just did not ring true
<pretti_n_kink> unfortunately Justice... it is very difficult sometimes
<_dove> Very true jewel, but us - those who live the lifestyle - don't we have a certain responsibilty to try to help people understand a bit more?
<sprin2Life> yes, we do dove
<sprin2Life> but we can only help so much
<_dove> If we made just one person understand - Dom or sub - we could literally be saving a life.
<_dove> All we can do is communicate
<sprin2Life> or more than one life
<jewel`{F}> i think we do dove
<Justice> but how do we do that dove? you said yourself that a few tried to talk you out of it ... to no avail
<_dove> They talked to me Justice, and although i didn't listen at first, i DID learn, and their advice helped me have my eyes open (a little lol)
<sprin2Life> enforce the SAFE contacts
<jewel`{F}> sometimes it is like beating our heads against a brick wall, but we have to keep on trying
<_dove> smiles...... i feel the same way jewel.
<_dove> This group has so much to offer new people to the lifestyle
<jewel`{F}> there is the "by the book" safety net
<sprin2Life> there is also just call a friend & say i'm ok
<_dove> i'm not advocating jumping into online scening and saying "no it's not done that way"..... some people just want their online fun. i do however, go out of my way to contact someone who is talking about meeting someone offline
<jewel`{F}> "don't meet him if he won't give you his full name, address, driver's license etc"
<jewel`{F}> but trust is a 2 way street
<_dove> "Dont meet him now" is a better answer........
<jewel`{F}> let him know that you are setting up safe calls
<_dove> If you can, go with them, to a public place
<jewel`{F}> set them up
<jewel`{F}> MAKE them
<sprin2Life> i have told several ppl, want to chat online first, get to know u better, then, if we click, we can meet r/l
<_dove> well said sprin2Life
<sprin2Life> ty dove
<jewel`{F}> you can also set the meeting up in a place where you are well know, and feel safe
<jewel`{F}> if it can't be in a place like that
<sprin2Life> have met at timmies, or the park
<_dove> Most of the new subs that i have met online are in no way ready to experience real time. That's where i try very hard to make them see that.
<sprin2Life> have met at the mall too, lots sof ppl there
<jewel`{F}> go to the place of choice a day or 2 before the meeting to get a feel for the place, set up your "escape route" incase you feel unsafe
<_dove> i get worried when i start giving advice about "how" to meet, to be honest. i'd rather they NOT meet
<_dove> Most online folks are not ready to go face-to-face, they just don't have the experience or the knowledge. Giving them a few pieces of advice may give them a false sense of security. Maybe i'm wrong......
<pretti_n_kink> eventually they have to meet someone though
<jewel`{F}> i think it depends on the rooms one is chatting in dove
<GnosticTwilight> If you're worried, have a friend who's also at the restaurant (unknown to the person you're meeting). The friend can watch out for you.
<pretti_n_kink> yes a munch would be best but it doesn't always work that way
<drauma{MzTyger}> you got statistics to profile this 'most'?
<jewel`{F}> i tend to stick to local rooms where most have met offline at somepoint
<_dove> Rooms like this are wonderful jewel
<jewel`{F}> if one goes down the room list on bondage, there are over 500 rooms
<_dove> drauma{MzTyger}, that comment went with some of the earlier comments, didn't mean it to be offensive *s*
<Justice> I guess the point would be that newbies don't know what kind of room/channel they are in ... they will judge based upon first (possibly erroneous) impressions
<drauma{MzTyger}> might be my preference for r/l, but most of the rooms I hang in are heavily r/l peoples
<jewel`{F}> there are several "local" rooms for all over the world
<_dove> Thank you Justice - that's exactly what i meant *s*
<_dove> When i came online, i didn't know fact from fiction when it came to BDSM and D/s, unless it was obvious
<drauma{MzTyger}> didnt take it as offensive, just looked kinda spurious as a broad assumption
<_dove> It took a long time for me to understand that not all things are for everyone - that there was no "one right way", and in fact online fantasies were more prelevent than anything else.
<_dove> Local groups, such as this one are much easier on a new person.
<jewel`{F}> there will always be those online that are looking for the fantasy, the cyber kink to fill their dreams and please pardon the crudeness, but "get their rocks off"
<_dove> Sure, and more power to them if they can
<jewel`{F}> yup
<drauma{MzTyger}> the internet has certainly made long-distances evaporate, and that alone encourages relationships which are impossible to make r/l
<_dove> There's that grey area for those that are interested in taking what they learn / feel into the real world.
<pretti_n_kink> at times... even those with a real interest are lumped into the same
<jewel`{F}> then there will be those that think that it is quick way to meet someone for that quick fix, some of them succeding at it
<_dove> In some ways, drauma{MzTyger}, the internet has also encouraged distance relationships, because the internet is a cheap easy way of communicating when they can't be together
<jewel`{F}> there will always be the HNGs and trolls out there
<_dove> Yes there will be, but it takes a while to learn to distinguish them from the good ones......
<_dove> It's fairly easy when they say hello and then tell you to kneel *grins*
<_dove> There are a lot of career online Dominants or submissives who are very good at appearing to be experts
<sprin2Life> it is easyuy to be expert when online
<jewel`{F}> there are lots of offline ones too
<_dove> Take a site like -- there is a real mix of people there. Some are r/l..... i would say that most who go there are online fantasy players
<drauma{MzTyger}> yes, kneeling is very easy on the knees done online
<_dove> it sure is LOL
<sprin2Life> lol
<jewel`{F}> there are those that may have lots of experience with the toys but don't have the "mind" for the rest of it
<drauma{MzTyger}> but, there are forms of play that can be just as valid online as r/l, mostly mental
<_dove> i was in a long time ago. A "Dom" kicked his "slave" in the head. Another Dominant (who i have met r/l) took offense at that, and was very vocal about this being dangerous. He was driven out of the room.
<jewel`{F}> at the same time dove places like alt can be a place to learn
<_dove> That to me is where i cringe...... someone was making a comment that kicking a slave in the head is NOT part of this lifestyle. The rest of the room, at the time, took offense to him intervening......
<jewel`{F}> you can learn what not to do
<drauma{MzTyger}> I have kicked up fusses about unrealistic Dom behaviour in scene channels, things like throwing innocent cats at ceiling fans...
<Justice> which one was driven out dove - the one who kicked or the one who commented?
<_dove> The one who commented, Justice. The one who brought some reality into the room. That is my greatest fear for someone who is learning
<drauma{MzTyger}> but, that was in a free-for all situation
<drauma{MzTyger}> thre are two issues in that which I see, one it he reality angle, the other is respect for the scene
<_dove> There are ways of making sure that the truth be at least posted somewhere, without attacking the fantasy player. At least, if someone is watching and learning, they are given both sides of the coin
<drauma{MzTyger}> I suspect the boot was for disrespecting the scene
<_dove> There is no booting at that site, it was just the audience at the time. They were not interested in knowing what was wrong. It was "okay" to kick another human being around because they were slave.
<jewel`{F}> drauma{MzTyger} i can't imagine any DM at any of the play parties i have been to, no matter the scene, allowing a dom to kick a sub in the head
<drauma{MzTyger}> its difficult to realize, for both newbie and sometimes for regular, but what you see in channel has to be presued consensual, no matter how biazzare
<_dove> Of course not jewel, that's my point..... but it happens online (we can't stop it). i don't care if it's a fantasy scene. i care deeply when someone else (like i was) sits, watches and learns from that.
<`subbound> hello MistressSarcastica
<drauma{MzTyger}> yes, but its up to the channel monitors to cry foul, not odd people in channel
<jewel`{F}> drauma{MzTyger} alt isn't a "moderated" chat
<_dove> i'm not talking about this channel, drauma{MzTyger}...... i'm talking about public chat rooms
<drauma{MzTyger}> just as in a club, if you see something looks unkosher, tell the DM, dont interupt the scene
<drauma{MzTyger}> me too _dove
<_dove> drauma{MzTyger} there are NO DM's in those kinds of chat rooms..........
<drauma{MzTyger}> no operators?
<_dove> There are no rules, there is no code of conduct.
<_dove> Trust me, i was part of the furniture there
<drauma{MzTyger}> then there is no hope for reality
<drauma{MzTyger}> and no reason to make moan
<_dove> Well, we can perhaps agree to disagree....... i think there IS hope for reality, and it comes from people like those here to help a new person distinguish right and wrong, or be there to answer questions. Walking away is not the answer, when we can perhaps make a difference
<drauma{MzTyger}> one might act *shocked*
<drauma{MzTyger}> one might diall 911
<drauma{MzTyger}> er, *diall 911)
<drauma{MzTyger}> er *dial 911*
<_dove> drauma{MzTyger}, do you think the internet is a learning resource for our lifestyle?
<drauma{MzTyger}> one might *watch the paramedics attend tot he concussed submissive*
<drauma{MzTyger}> I think it is, and we have had no better since the past hundred years
<_dove> i agree.
<_dove> Do you think we, as part of this online world, are a learning resource?
<drauma{MzTyger}> but, it also has potential to spread vast untruths
<Justice> a friend of mine is wont to say that, with the internet, we are misinformed much faster than we used to be
<`abi> I think it can be dove ... the difficulty can be that there is no obvious way to distinguish fact from fantasy
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would hope we can be
<drauma{MzTyger}> reason and common sense play a role abi
<_dove> i agree, abi. It is difficult. Is it difficult to the point of shrugging shoulders and not trying? i don't think so. i'd like to know that those of us who care will try before writing someone off
<`abi> to an extent drauma ... especially once you have some experience .. but initially? ... there is much misinformation which looks quite plausible to a novice
<_dove> There are those that don't want help, or don't want to know. i want the peace of mind, personally, to know that i tried.
<_dove> Well said, abi.
<drauma{MzTyger}> sometimes there are limits _dove
<`abi> but the point is dove, that the person you are trying to help has no real reason to believe that you know what you are talking about ... any more than the next person who might be giving them completely bad information
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<_dove> Yes, that's true abi. i can only try, and generally rely on common sense as an ally
<drauma{MzTyger}> I was in a discussion channel recently, one preoperative ts was sounding very despondant, definately suicidal
<_dove> It happens more often than we think drauma{MzTyger}.... many write off online as being nonsense, or not real.
<drauma{MzTyger}> some were tired of hearing it, others wanted to do the crisis center intervention thing
<_dove> Both parties may have been right. i choose to err on the side of caution, and try.
<drauma{MzTyger}> I took my conversation wiht the TS offline to PM
<_dove> That's the best thing to do
<drauma{MzTyger}> and still wonder if any of what she said was real
<_dove> Does it really matter? You chose to exercise caution, which is the smart thing to do.
<`abi> I think that the internet can help someone who is having a bad day ... it can't help someone who is having a bad life and who needs professional help fact, it can make it much worse
<_dove> Very true abi.
<drauma{MzTyger}> might have been better to setup a private room, but the other person who took an interest had bailed for bed about then
<drauma{MzTyger}> I member one night when I personnally took great comfort in just one well timed hug
<_dove> i can say, from personal experience, that this channel can be (is) a good place to learn. People have been very helpful and very friendly. i can only wish that this type of environment could be more widespread. *s*
<_dove> This channel can be an online classroom. The fantasy players are usually weeded out fairly quickly. i know that some of us go to the open chat rooms, and DO help answer questions more realistically than the throne-thumping *doms* there
<drauma{MzTyger}> it would be if it were easier to setup parallel web-hosted sites for posting files of information and links
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to _dove for moderating, and to everyone who participated.
<_dove> i was part of a big site drauma{MzTyger}, it helped a lot of people. If we all do a little bit and help those that want help by answering what seem like silly questions, we may be introducing someone to a wonderful lifestyle, or keeping someone away from serious injury. They are worth it, they were us, once upon a time *smiles*