March 28, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Virtual Collaring... Too Easily Given and Given Up?". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion. ><BernieRoehl> Thanks, shareena
<shareena> welcome
<DarkAngel^{a}> online collaring ? ... MMmm been there ,,, seen that ,,, moved on to real life
<shareena> what are your thoughts about it DarkAngel^{a}?
<BernieRoehl> A lot of people show up online and are soon wearing a {}, in some cases to someone they've never met in real life
<DarkAngel^{a}> IMO ,,, it is a good place for newbies to explore ,,, but if you dont move on to real life ,,,, then you might as well just watch tv
<DarkAngel^{a}> your thoughts shareena ?
<Sweet1`> i don't agree that it's a good place to explore...they learn lots of myths and problems that have to be corrected when they do go to r/l
<shareena> I don't understand the process actually. I don't understand how you can have a bond with someone you have never met in real life. But then I have no experience with it so its difficult for me to express an educated opinion
<DarkAngel^{a}> ahhh Sweet1` ,, but isnt it myth and fantacy that draws many of us here in ther first place ?
<Sweet1`> no, it's an inner drive/need
<Sweet1`> some expression and thought may be fantasy
<DarkAngel^{a}> and how do you diferentiate between needs and fantacies where a person explored such desires ?
<DarkAngel^{a}> that should read "where a person has never explored such desires"
* DebUTaunt waves hi... sorry I'm late
* Sweet1` has a fantasy that i'm never hungry and don't need to eat
<DarkAngel^{a}> IMO ,,, those who are online ,,,, are welcome to such exploration ,,, personally I encourage them to go to Munches and begin to explore R/L as soon as they are ready
* DarkAngel^{a} has lots of fantacies *innocent grin*
<zellie> online will vary... it be dependant on where & who the person hangs out
<zellie> it will be... correction
<yummy> you can meet some mighty nice people on the net
<DarkAngel^{a}> well I have mentioned my own experience with Online ,,, anyone else care to mention theirs ?
<BernieRoehl> I have to admit... I've never had an online-only relationship. Nothing against them -- whatever works, works. It's just not for me.
<DarkAngel^{a}> well BernieRoehl ,, that is because you live in the center of the BDSM universe ,,, lol
<zellie> if online is used as a meeting place... to get to know folks... it can be good
<DebUTaunt> I've had both online and real life, but the ones that were exclusively online due to distance...
<DebUTaunt> were in some ways more intense
* BernieRoehl chuckles, glad to be where he is
<DebUTaunt> they never got tested in the naked light of day tho
<DebUTaunt> so it was easy to get swept up in the fantasy ideal
<BernieRoehl> I know for some people, a {} is as real as an actual, physical, real-life collar
<DebUTaunt> I've had an online sub for 8 years whom I've never met (yet)
<DebUTaunt> and we joke about making it happen r/l some day
<DebUTaunt> but we both really know it's just a good friendship that has changed over time...
<DebUTaunt> never discussion of a collar
<BernieRoehl> Is there any reason not to meet them in person, Deb?
<DebUTaunt> just distance.... he was in Italy for 5 years, and in California for 2
* BernieRoehl nods
<DebUTaunt> (my monitor's about to blow for good I fear... if I disappear It's cause I went blind)
<DarkAngel^{a}> When first exploring the online community ,,, I met a few who claimed to want to meet ,, but there was always an excuse ,,,, I was hurt by their dishonesty and lies
<DebUTaunt> initially I think you have to assume that any new contact is thinking with their genitals
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I've heard that happens a lot -- people who have no intention of travelling to meet someone they meet online, just enjoying the fantasy
<DebUTaunt> and take that with a huge grain of salt
<DarkAngel^{a}> I vowed never to make an online only connection ,,, and since then ,, if someone doesnt want to meet after a reasonable time ,, then friends (online) is all they will ever be
<DarkAngel^{a}> and move on
<DebUTaunt> this individual has become a good friend and confidante, and yes, that is all he will likely be
<DebUTaunt> but in rough times it's nice to have a sounding board who's not directly "in" my life
<zellie> doesn't everyone need good friends too?
<DebUTaunt> however, I would not seek an online-only bdsm relationship
<DarkAngel^{a}> that sounds nice actually DebUTaunt
<DebUTaunt> he's come in handy in recent months
<yummy> how so DebUTaunt?
<DebUTaunt> he's a captain in the US marines
<zellie> i agree... DebUTaunt.. a good friend who knows you intimately is good
<DebUTaunt> I've got this fetish for military men, it seems
<DebUTaunt> lol
<DarkAngel^{a}> definetly zellie ,,, my point was in refferance to one who decieved ,, offering something other than online ,, as BernieRoehl states ,, they are just looking for a fantacy ,,, but are not honest in this
<DebUTaunt> true DarkAngel.... there are many players out there... I've not interviewed as many females as males of course, but there are patterns
* DarkAngel^{a} General DA winks at DebUTaunt
<DebUTaunt> mmmmmmmmmmm yes Sir.... (salutes)
<DebUTaunt> that's as long as you can stand to attention DA!
<DarkAngel^{a}> lol
<zellie> isn't it up to us... the reality based ones... to keep the relationship grounded.. and not to go crazy into the fantasy world?
* DarkAngel^{a} is a little tired ,,,, did ,,, manouvers with the slave ALLLLllllll weekend
<DebUTaunt> I'd agree zellie, but are you speaking as a submissive or a dominant?
<DebUTaunt> who's job is it to keep things grounded?
<DebUTaunt> once the sub surrenders, (which is the point) then he or she becomes prey
<DebUTaunt> and God help us when the Dominant is the one who falls first...
<zellie> the sub still has a mind..
<DebUTaunt> of course...
<DebUTaunt> I wasn't implying differently,
<zellie> and falling prey means one is not thinking with one's head .
<DebUTaunt> just that to have to second guess oneself or be suspicious kinda ruins the mood, wouldn't you agree?
<zellie> you don't second guess... trust your instincts
<DebUTaunt> speaking only for myself, my instincts have been proven to be wrong on occasion
<zellie> who do you second guess? the other person? or yourself?
* DarkAngel^{a} smiles ,,MMmmmmmm prey ,,, the thought makes me hunger in dark ways
<DebUTaunt> either, both
<zellie> if you make a mistake... forgive yourself... it's a learning lesson.
<zellie> i've met some wonderful people online... some have become good friends.
<shareena> have you been collared by any zellie?
<zellie> no.. i've never done an online collaring
<zellie> i would not do any collaring in a hurry.
<shareena> me either
<shareena> I have heard those that have been collared say the bond is just as strong as if it had been r/l
<zellie> i would want to meet (face to face) the person... and meet on a regular basis and all parties be in agreement that this would be longterm... before i do any type of collaring.
<shareena> what about "velcro" collars? I assume they mean people who put them on and take them off just as fast.
<Alix> Yes
<zellie> ok...
<zellie> by online collaring do you mean ... only interacting via irc...
<zellie> or is there also phone... and cam interaction?
<shareena> does that make a difference?
<zellie> lol...
<DarkAngel^{a}> like I said at the start ,,, I think online collaring is a good starting point for people exploring ,, but it really needs to move R/L if it is to be real
<Alix> I've watched some partners who do the whole range of interactions (irc, phone, IM, and r/l)
<zellie> shareena... i could impersonate a man here..
<Alix> But mostly irc because of the distance factor
<zellie> more difficult to impersonate a man on the phone
<shareena> with the cam and phone you know that you are speaking to a man or woman
<shareena> but do you get to know them any better?
<DebUTaunt> but do you think you could get to the collaring stage and still have gender doubts?
<DebUTaunt> I think online collars don't have the same significance as in real life
<zellie> i think you get to know people better if you do phone... to me phone is more personal..
<DebUTaunt> they're a status symbol and a connector, a designation
<zellie> and willingness to be called at any time..
<DarkAngel^{a}> I agree DebUTaunt
<DarkAngel^{a}> shhh Achilles{tr} is here ,,, lets stop talking about him
<zellie> not restricted phone calls... then i would suspect a mother/father/spouse.. lurking
* Achilles{tr} smiles and settles in
<zellie> i would want home and work numbers and free access
<zellie> before i start believing the person.
<shareena> online relationships in general... for some people, that is all they can ever have. Due to their circumstances they wouldn't want to be called at any time
<zellie> are they upfront about their circumstances?
<shareena> i am assuming that these relationships go on to collaring too
<zellie> i do know of folks that are.. and tell you straight..
* ^sensual^ personally believes that any type of online/virtual collaring takes away from the validity of the real life event's too easily "played" with and not taken seriously via this medium
<shareena> there are many that are involved in an online relationship that will tell you that it is very real to them ^sensual^
<Alix> I think we have to differentiate between "real and intense" to them, and whether they really know the other players
<DebUTaunt> I agree that the connection is very real and very emotional.... but it's simply not the same
<^sensual^> shareena...yes, I am very sure there are...but again, I did state it was only "my" opinion
<Alix> I don't think you can really know someone unless you meet face to face
<Alix> But if the emotional intensity is what you crave, then online can be as good as r/l
<Alix> <not my cup of tea though>
<zellie> for some... online has validity.
<^sensual^> Alix...of much as we can respect and enjoy a person's personality and persona, we are still very much tactile and sensory creatures, you can not "love' what you have never felt, smelled, tasted..
<zellie> and we shouldn't look down our noses about it
<shareena> I agree zellie
<_dove> If it is real to them, do we need to judge?
<zellie> i agree dove.
<Achilles{tr}> There appears to be an assumption that online is, by default, always less intense or real than an r/t relationship. I believe I have seen some very intense online partnerings as well as some very vacuous and shallow r/t ones. Collars or no.
<_dove> i agree, Achilles{tr}, well said
<zellie> it's better having touched that... than only dreaming... and it is interaction
<DarkAngel^{a}> very valid point Achilles{tr}
<DebUTaunt> Achilles, did you just call me vacuous?
* ^sensual^ is not judging, at all...more looking to hear arguments to prove me wrong, or at least help me understand..I was under the assumption this was a discussion channel ..I don't believe I have been disrespectful in any way
<DebUTaunt> lol
<Sweet1`> people get emotional watching a hollywood ain't real, but the emotions felt are
* `abi smiles
<zellie> yes... correct Achilles{tr}... many of the r/l collarings are also velcro
* DebUTaunt chews broken glass just for fun on that one
<Achilles{tr}> I neither called anyone vacuous nor intense. <smiles> Place yourselves as each sees fit.
<Achilles{tr}> What is a velcro collar to one might be a very intense and sincere experience for another. Who am I to say what is or is not valid?
<zellie> lets look at our own experiences... have you been in a quick in-and-out collaring..
<zellie> what about our personal mistakes?
<shareena> i haven't been in one but I have made mistakes in this lifestyle
<zellie> i think we all have been hurt/dumped, etc.. at some stage in life.
<zellie> what are the lessons learnt, the are the important ones, imo
<DebUTaunt> I'm not sure our humanity is at stake here zellie... more the ease of assumptions... maybe the "suspension of disbelief" that can happen online
<DebUTaunt> people pretending to be other than who/what they are
<shareena> that happens quite a bit on here.
<Alix> Or pretending that the other person is other than what they are
<`abi> I think that the suspension of disbelief is an important aspect of online experiences ... it's what allowed me to be begin thinking differently about myself
<Alix> I get a lot of male subs attempting to project an alternate persona onto me
<zellie> that doesn't bother me any longer.. DebUTaunt
<zellie> and if they lie... it'
<Achilles{tr}> What difference if choose to represent Myself as a buxom femsub in Toronto as long as My 'partner' is never going to meet me and prove otherwise?
<zellie> it's their problem..... NOT mine
<DebUTaunt> we'll have to agree to disagree on that one zellie
<zellie> i am no longer bothered by trust...
<DebUTaunt> to me it IS about trusting another, not just myself
<zellie> i could not care less
<_dove> What about those who don't pretend to be other than who they are?
<Achilles{tr}> Well, if someone wants to collar that fictional femsub and I'm game for it... maybe it's all good?
<shareena> but what about when one person lies and the other believes it to be the truth
<Alix> Well, I think it depends on whether a r/l meet is possible or wanted
<zellie> i think most liars have short memories.. and they get caught out
<Achilles{tr}> If the truth never comes to light, and it is all online... what's the difference? Online, your beliefs are the truth. Reality is perception.
<shareena> you can be that femsub Achilles{tr}, but what if the person on the other side believes you to be a female and starts to fall for you. Do we have the right to hurt others like that
<zellie> they have to remember who they told what
<`abi> early on someone once advised me to remember that 'they are just words on a screen'
* _dove comes from this 'online world'
<Achilles{tr}> If it is going to remain online... what difference does the reality og My gender make to my 'partner'?
* Sweet1` generally doesn't believe my puter screen till i meet the typist
<shareena> only if both agree. But how many times have people started off online and then wanted to meet r/l
<DebUTaunt> only cause you'd make an ugly woman Achilles, and a rotten sub
<DebUTaunt> oops
<Alix> I can see that happening a lot shareena
<`abi> lol
<Alix> But even if neither partner lied, there is still a possibility of r/l disappointment
<`abi> the beard would definitely have to go
<shareena> yes, but with lies there is going to be disappointments
<shareena> not a possibility
<Achilles{tr}> Agreed... crossing over into reality makes the fiction a nasty thing. But if it doesn't then there is no harm. The collar is as real as the virtual World can make it. I am not female, I am not sub.. but so what? online I could be and what's the harm?
<`abi> that's a very good point Alix ... I think that it's extremely difficult to make a transition from online to real life ...especially if it has been a long term online relationship
* Achilles{tr} lol w/Deb
<shareena> do you know for sure that it is never going to go r/l though?
<Alix> Well, if the fellow I am corresponding with lives in Israel, then I think the chances of it staying online are real good
<DebUTaunt> same as in 'nilla world.... if you're going to lie you better have a good memory
<shareena> possible Alix. But there are planes
<shareena> All I am saying is "why lie"
<`abi> so...has anyone ever wanted to be seen differently than they are?
<Achilles{tr}> This is a discussion about virtual collaring so I would consider it could be assumed that all would remain virtual. If it goes r/t it would then fall outside the parameters of the discussion topic.
<Alix> What you will find, shareena, is that when a "basic" lie is told, no meeting ever happens
<Alix> Heck I've had guys who were local refuse to meet
<_dove> There are many online, who portray themselves as they are, do not venture into r/t, and are very serious about their online relationship.
<shareena> not me. I am who I am on here and in real life
<`abi> you eat more cheese in real life dove
<Achilles{tr}> brie
<_dove> yeah but it took Brie no less
* _dove smiles at Achilles and abi
<`abi> my point is ... that one of the attractions of online is that it provides the opportunity to view oneself differently
<`abi> and perhaps begin to experience oneself differently
<`abi> to see possibilities
<`abi> and to have someone else see possibilities
<Achilles{tr}> Can be whomever you want and as long as you realize you can't transition it into r/t, you can satisfy someone else's v/t need to Dom over a fantasy person or sub to a fantasy person.
<DebUTaunt> I'll agree `a
<DebUTaunt> abi...
<Achilles{tr}> Too good to be true often is... though not always.
<DebUTaunt> Achilles, have you got the time to lead a second life online with anyone, for any reason?
<DebUTaunt> I sure don't
* Achilles{tr} smiles at His girl
<DebUTaunt> but I get `abi's point... and it's a good one
<Achilles{tr}> I have no reason to DebUTaunt. it holds no interest for Me.
<_dove> There are some who discover this lifestyle online, believe it is the only place they can 'experience' it, and eventuallly make a transition into r/t.....
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Achilles{tr}> As to collars, I have a record of establishing them for years at a time rather than weeks or months. Realtime. I am certainly not an example of the sort of person being discussed here. Doesn't mean I can't speak for them or see their side fo things. I may have a little more trouble understanding it is all.
<DebUTaunt> what comes to mind is "fuck em if they can't take a joke"... but it might not be appropriate
<Achilles{tr}> Virtual may lack some of the aspects of r/t but that doesn't make it an invalid sort of relationship. DDDoes it make it easier to have velcor than r/t?
<`abi> I remember a man that I only ever met online ... his biggest fantasy was to enter a virtual room, with a girl on each arm...something he was unlikely to ever experience in r/l
<Achilles{tr}> Whoa, nice typing.
<`abi> his pleasure in finally experiencing that was palpable ... even across a monitor
<Achilles{tr}> Velcro exists both online and r/t. Easier or not has more to do with the people than the medium I think.
<_dove> so his pleasure was real then, abi?
<DebUTaunt> interesting
<`abi> it was very real dove ... and I felt honoured to have been able to share it
<_dove> exactly *smiles*
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.