March 26 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> Welcome to BDSM-KW. A discussion is in progress. Our topic tonight is
"Knowing what you Need, Getting what you Want". Please feel free to join in, but
kindly refrain from Walton-style hi-byes until the discussion ends at 10 pm.
Raptor is the recommended server to avoid lag. Be advised that our discussions
are logged for posting to the ebhc website. If you wish to remain anonymous,
please change your nick before joining the discussion.
<`abi> ...and we're off
<`abi> anyone care to begin by commenting on whether what you want and what you
need are different things?
<bottoms_up{RD}> definitely different... i want lots of candy but it isnt what i
need ;)
<Achilles{tr}> Bringing together the concepts of what you 'want' and what you
'need' could be thought of as a voyage of self-discovery.
<webby56> ...they ARE in a vanilla relationship....know THAT fer sure..
<`abi> so what you *need* would be more comparable to fruits and veggies bottoms?
<bottoms_up{RD}> yup abi ;)
<`zee{LQ}> they are different.. i use the wants and needs when shopping..and it
makes a difference
<`abi> how is a vanilla relationship different in this regard webby?
<bottoms_up{RD}> how to tell the difference in a relationship between wants and
needs is hard.. especially when you are new and learning and keep changing
<`abi> does separating them in your relationship make a difference too zee?
<webby56> Well...Its hard to get want ya want when married to a vanilla.
<SirLancelot`> abi..why did you word it Getting with want ... Knowing with need?
<webby56> Not as interested as much.
<SirLancelot`> why not knowing what you want and getting what you need?
<`abi> how would you word it differently SirLancelot`?
<`abi> equally interesting to ponder SirLancelot` .... care to comment on either?
<Achilles{tr}> When W/we start exploring this lifestyle we have wants which might,
or might not... be what is actually needed. Over time the wants and needs come
closer together as We realize what is out there and how it 'really' affects us.
<SirLancelot`> I guess there's 4 different combinations...just wondering if there
was purpose behind the wordking
<SirLancelot`> wording..
<`abi> not really SirLancelot` ... we just want to discuss wants and needs and how
they relate
<SirLancelot`> ok
<`zee{LQ}> i think knowing what you need and getting it, is the most important of
<Achilles{tr}> But you must first realize what it is you truley need before you
can pursue it.
<dalian> knowing what you need builds the essential foundation in learning what
you later want
<SirLancelot`> I agree zee!!!
<`abi> quite true do you know what you need?
<SirLancelot`> I found out a little late what it was that I needed
<|Karen> well....theory has it that there is very little I _need_ to be a whole
person. I've got food, shelter, a stable income....
* bottoms_up{RD} thinks knowing what i need is very hard to figure out... the
wants list is alot longer and i hate to cross it off when it comes down to need.
i am greedy ;)
<Achilles{tr}> I know some of what I need abi and am finding new things quite
frequently... especially of late. perhaps the needs are never truly carved in
stone but change as We develop.
<|Karen> is a long term committed relationship a need? I know I want it, but is it
a need?
<`abi> but Maslow's heirarchy of needs would suggest that once you have need something else Karen
* Kilted_One knows that he has tasted icecream that he didnt think he needed till
he ate some of is kinna the same ya know???
<`abi> how do we address *escalating needs* in a relationship?
<|Karen> I'm thinking of Maslow.....if I have the I need what I want
(a long term committed relationship) to be self-fulfilled?
<bottoms_up{RD}> escalating needs?
<SirLancelot`> ya talk about it...and hope that both parties needs are in the same
<swannie^^> are needs and wants not overlapping .....if we want to get somewhere
or get something out of life, do we not have to identify the things we need to
get there?
<|Karen> theory has it, I shouldn't _need_ this....but it feels like I do.
<`abi> so one feeds the other swann?
<|Karen> theory has it, one should be self-fulfilled by one's self
<swannie^^> i think they are interdependant ...
<Achilles{tr}> The needs and wants of partners would seem to need to be
complementary for the relationship to work well... a sub must need from the Dom
what He needs to give and visa versa.
<`abi> needs and wants not only overlap with ourselves..but also with
our partner?
<`zee{LQ}> when does a need become a want or a want become a need?
<SirLancelot`> there has to be a compatability
<|Karen> good question, zee....and one I'd really like the answer to...
<`abi> any thoughts on that zee?
<SirLancelot`> an electron for the to speak
<bottoms_up{RD}> i would say yes abi... with our partners because we hope they can
give us some of our needs and maybe a few bonus wants *grin*
<swannie^^> after our basic needs are met, shelter, etc...then the want
seems to be the goal, the need is the route to that goal
<`zee{LQ}> perhaps a want becomes a need as it grows in intensity.. without being
<SirLancelot`> then the basic need would be change and progression
<bottoms_up{RD}> how do you determine the difference?
<`zee{LQ}> and vice versa for a need to become a want
<`abi> so wants are the icing bottoms?
<bottoms_up{RD}> in my eyes abi.. yes
* dalian agrees
<`abi> How do you discover what it is that you really need?
<swannie^^> *nodding at bottoms*
<Kilted_One> a want becomes a need after you have sampled the want and get hooked
<|Karen> isn't the difference between them a matter of mindset?
<bottoms_up{RD}> that is my problem... i have a hard time telling the difference
between want and need
<Achilles{tr}> A need is discovered by having it satisfied and realizing... I need
more of this.
<|Karen> one does not have to _need_ something, or someone...
<Achilles{tr}> A want is the desire perhaps to initially sample it.
<swannie^^> or perhaps Achilles you WANT more of this
<bottoms_up{RD}> but being hedonistic Achilles, i feel that way about wants too
<|Karen> it's a matter of perspective
<SirLancelot`> I think a want is something that is can toss it
<`abi> is a need something you can't be without vs. a want being something you'd
rather not be without?
<|Karen> if I feel like I need a long term relationship to be fulfilled and I
never get it then I will die unfulfilled.
<Achilles{tr}> It is just a matter of definition... does where you draw the line
between needs and wants define the parameter sof this discussion?
<|Karen> but if I only want it, and don't get it....I may find fulfilment elsewhere
<`abi> perhaps Achilles...but I suspect we'd all draw that line in a different
<Achilles{tr}> Exactly. So it would seem impractical to try to settle on a
definition of the terms.
<bottoms_up{RD}> its drawing that line, that i am not good at *sigh*
<Achilles{tr}> An understanding that they are points on a scale which W/we each
might place in different positions may be enough.
<`abi> Let's try a simpler concept... assuming that you've decided what you need
... how do you go about communicating that to your partner?
* Kilted_One dccs bot an etchasketch
<bottoms_up{RD}> tell them? lol
* `vixie` chuckle
* bottoms_up{RD} giggles .. thanks KO ;)
<`abi> then what bottoms?
<|Karen> well, I guess this is another conversation about couples....I'll just sit
down and shut up then
<`zee{LQ}> it seems my Master forsees my needs before i have to talk to Him about
<`vixie`> one way to tell each other what you want could be to write in a diary,
or a letter, and leave it on Y/your partner's pillow
* `vixie` shrugs
<bottoms_up{RD}> communicate as they are or not being met, help each other to
learn how to meet the others needs.. if not.. over make a decision to continue
to work at it..or leave?
<`abi> not exactly Karen ... I imagine that needs and wants exist for people
without partners as well ....
<`abi> are needs and wants negotiable?
<`zee{LQ}> Karen.. i think that if your wants are not satisfied one way another
way will surface that is available
<swannie^^> or his wants become your needs?
<dalian> i don't think needs are...but wants certainly can be
<swannie^^> <---------playing devil's advocate
<bottoms_up{RD}> agree dalian ;)
* bottoms_up{RD} winks to swannie ;)
<|Karen> well, singles are human beings after all, abi....I imagine that they do
indeed exist for us as well...
<`abi> just because I *want* I have a right to expect it?
<`zee{LQ}> hmm swannie.. good question? if they do it is without obvious seeing
on my part
<bottoms_up{RD}> you do have a right to expects your needs to be met.. or search
for someone better suited to meet them
<Achilles{tr}> If you want something and have communicated it to your partner then
it is to be expected that this will be taken intoaccount in future activities.
Though it might not happen next time or the one after that or...
<`abi> yes Karen, I imagine so ....which is why we're interested in hearing
different perspectives
<bottoms_up{RD}> but in time Achilles... or you assess the situation and your
needs again
<bottoms_up{RD}> patience... eeeeek?? did i say that nasty word ;))
<Achilles{tr}> Singles certainly have needs as well. It is even MORE difficult for
them to communicate these to a partner up front and to explore them. An ongoing
relationship allows for a building of a library of known pleasures and
experiences. A single would be more challenged in determining and communicationg
their needs.
* |Karen wants to know how to communicate her wants and needs to a
partner.....that doesn't exist!
<`abi> well Karen ... if you had a would communicate your needs and
<swannie^^> to make this more difficult it not possible that a need is a
want when used to define a way of achieving different goals?
<|Karen> that's the point of being single....there is no one to communicate _with_
<bottoms_up{RD}> and a single has the issue of the necessary time it takes to have
the needs met, as you grow and learn with a partner.
* Kilted_One disagrees with Karen....thats what friends are for
<`abi> how does one accomodate changing needs bottoms?
<Achilles{tr}> Well.. if you assume a single has no play partner then communcation
becomes a null issue. The challenge might be solely considered how would a
single discover what it IS they truly need?
<|Karen> _if_ assumes the possibility of future partnering...
<Sweetone{LT}> Master has a need....the keyboard <g>
<`zee{LQ}> you can communicate with yourself sorting out needs from
wants and what particular things they are within those needs and wants that you
can get for yourself
<|Karen> I want to know how to get my needs met while facing the very real
possibility of remaining single
<bottoms_up{RD}> continuous communication abi.. soemtimes you outgrow a partner if
they dont want to accomdate your changing needs
* `zee{LQ} smiles to the want now of sweetone to give the keyboard to her Master
<`abi> seems we always come back to communication ....
<LrdThomas> lol
<`abi> Anyone ever think that they don't *know* what it is that they need?
<bottoms_up{RD}> me ;)
* Kilted_One puts his hands up
<`zee{LQ}> tis always something special when you don't need communication directly
as your Master knows your needs sometimes before you do!
<Achilles{tr}> If we assume a partner is required to fulfill needs then yes...
communication is an important issue. Is a partner required for an individual to
discover their needs?
* `zee{LQ} puts her hand up too!
* `vixie` raises her hand too
<`abi> what is the process of discovering a need like.....can anyone describe it?
<LrdThomas> needs are the basic human condition of survival. Wants are all else
that celebrate the joy this world can provide to those who go out and make it
<bottoms_up{RD}> nope Achilles.. but some of our needs for some of us.. is to have
a relationship with a partner
<|Karen> I know what I need in a relationship...see my website for longer details.
But I feel like I have to keep the desire for the relationship itself to a
<canplay> being single, this one looks after her own needs, and adds many of her
own wants to boot *grins*
<LrdThomas> yup, agreed canplay. :)
<|Karen> and that's sometimes hard to do.
<`abi> so you feel responsible for seeing that your own needs are met canplay?
<Achilles{tr}> So... needs can both be determined AND satsifeid without a partner
assuming a partnership is not one of those needs?
<canplay> i have to abi
<`zee{LQ}> the hardest thing is to have to put a need to a want within yourself
and be prepared to wait
* dalian agrees with zee
<LrdThomas> a partner is a want imo, ... one can survive w/o a partner.
<`abi> are there some universal needs in this lifestyle?.... with or without a
* canplay agrees with LrdThomas
<Achilles{tr}> Again... the difference ebtween wants and needs is placed on
different points of the scale by different individuals.
<bottoms_up{RD}> sorry, i guess i am a wimp... i can be quite happy alone but a
need i have is to have a close loving bond with someone .. and to have them meet
some of those needs
<|Karen> I agree, LT. But is mere survival....enough?
<|Karen> I don't want to just survive....I want to feel fulfilled. And I guestion
whether I can do that alone.
<Achilles{tr}> That is something each person would have to decide for themselves.
<Achilles{tr}> Do you need a partner? If so... finding one is a need to be
<`abi> Do needs and wants ever conflict?
<bottoms_up{RD}> agreed Achilles ;)
<`kia^> hihi
<bottoms_up{RD}> conflict? i know they dont agree sometimes the candy
issue ;)
<LrdThomas> sure it is Karen... as a need. Because one might want more is up to
the individual. In fact, submission as a want, is far more valuable to me, than
as a need. If it's a need, it can be then defined as a survival characteristic.
And the fact the submissive is capable of flourishing w/o a partner, makes her
"want" when she gives of herself, all the more valuable.
<|Karen> it isn't quite that easy to do, Achilles
<`abi> what do you do then bottoms?
* LrdThomas isn't into negative co-dependency, which might well define submission
if it is a "need".
<bottoms_up{RD}> abi, hate to say it but i tend to fuck up and go with the need..
too hedonistic ;(
<bottoms_up{RD}> ooops..i mean.. go with the want! lol
<`abi> what if Dominance is a "need" LrdThomas? or is it ever?
<Achilles{tr}> So a want can conflict with a need. An interesting concept.
* `abi smiles at bottoms ... well, we could discuss whether that is actually
fucking up or not
<bottoms_up{RD}> typically the need is something more stable, harder to get and
not as much fun *Grin*
<LrdThomas> it shouldn't be abi.... for the same reasons. I would feel a huge
void without sweetone, but my survival would not be at stake.
<|Karen> would your fulfillment be at stake without sweetone?
<bottoms_up{RD}> Achilles.. my want is candy, my need is veggies *Grin* ..
conflict galore ;)
<Achilles{tr}> Very true. Now apply it to BDSM concepts.
<`abi> candied carrots perhaps bottoms?
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol abi
* |Karen smiles at bottoms 'thanks, you've just reminded me of something'
<LrdThomas> maybe, i dunno. I know i would not feel as fulfilled in the sense you
are saying it, but i think i could carry on and lead a relatively happy life, as
i hope she could.
<bottoms_up{RD}> hmmm Achilles, i have ran into this a few times..let me think
<`abi> Is the fulfillment of need related to pushing limits in any way ... or are
limits strictly related to wants?
* |Karen nods to LT 'I guess that's my question...I know I can survive as a single
person, but I want more then just survival....and I'm not sure how to get it'
<|Karen> whether my goal should be to learn fulfillment as a single person, or to
keep my eye on the Prize, so to speak....and seek fulfillment in a relationship
<`abi> Has anyone ever wanted something, only to get it and then find out that
they didn't want it after all?
<LrdThomas> well, as i would say to anyone Karen.... it's about haveing ones own
life together and at peace that is first and foremost. Be it nilla or D/s, i at
least, would be more favourably in tune with a potential partner that was happy
within their own life before undertaking one with me.
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol.. tons abi but i dont have any for examples ;)
<SkyDom> I doubt that's ever happened to any of us, abi......laff.
* `abi smiles.... then does that experience help us to redefine needs or wants
SkyDom, bottoms?
<Achilles{tr}> I have tried things which sounded like I would enjoy themt hen
foudn they did not meet My exopectations and abandoned them... is that an
* |Karen nods again to LT
<`zee{LQ}> i think that is a good example Achilles{tr} Sir
<bottoms_up{RD}> it strikes one want off my list *Grin* .. only to be replaced by
a new one ;)
<`abi> way or another .... wants and needs are a progression ... not a
destination bottoms?
<Achilles{tr}> What about discovering that something you have read about isn't as
much fun as it sounded in the book?
<SkyDom> a lot of fantasies are best left unlived....
<bottoms_up{RD}> i think both abi... they are our goals but they constantly change
as we grow
<`abi> but does that mean we should be afraid to pursue wants Achilles?
<Achilles{tr}> If a fantasy is to be left unexpressed or unexperienced then how
will You know if it is what you truly want?
<Kilted_One> fantasies are no longer fantasies after they have been lived...the
become experiences
* Achilles{tr} fantasizes about His experiences often
<`zee{LQ}> they are a journey abi not a destination perhaps!
<`abi> Are there factors in helping to distinguish needs from wants?
<bottoms_up{RD}> if there are.. let me know *grin*
<Achilles{tr}> Again.. it would depend how you define each term.
<Achilles{tr}> I do not define a need as being required to survive.
<`abi> All right .... anyone want to take a shot at completing the phrase .....
"What I really need is.......
<Achilles{tr}> But Thomas does... We would differentaite the terms want and need
very differently.
<`zee{LQ}> hmmm?
<|Karen> What I really need is.... hmmmm...
* `zee{LQ} laughs
<Kilted_One> "What I really need is..........happiness and whatever it brings
* `abi smiles....that speaks volumes zee :)
<Achilles{tr}> I don't believe there is a single pat phrase to complete that fro
everyone and perhaps nopt even for anyone.
<Achilles{tr}> Except in very general terms.
* |Karen smiles at Kilted_One 'yeah....that'
<`zee{LQ}> 'What i really need is.. to keep the peace and balance that is in my
soul, above all other needs or wants!!!
<LrdThomas> that's what makes the world go round Achilles.
<`abi> certainly not one that didn't change Achilles
* `zee{LQ} nods smiling proud of that accomplishment
<`abi> lovely things to need KO and zee....thank you for sharing them with us :)
<`abi> now...."What I *really* want is.........
* LrdThomas needs coffee in the morning. <g>
<Kilted_One> has got his two front teeth
* bottoms_up{RD} needs to feel peace, love and to know that the greatest
percentage of my time is spent with a smile on my face ;)
* |Karen has a new sig line that she's pondering 'whether a good fuck is any
compensation for getting fucked'
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol Karen
<`abi> would that be a want or a need Karen?
<SkyDom> laff, K
<LrdThomas> lol abi.
<bottoms_up{RD}> damn abi.. we only have ten minutes for the wants.. i could go on
for DAYS!! ;)
* `abi smiles at bottoms ....yes, when you think about it, the list of wants is
much longer than the list of needs isn't it :
<|Karen> whenever I think that all I need is a good fuck, I think about that
line.... :)
<bottoms_up{RD}> the list of needs are more basic i think... wants are just for
pure pleasure and fun ;)
* LrdThomas aadmits it is easier for a Dom to get a good fuck.... just tie up the
wench and take it! <wink>
<`abi> so nice when needs are in synch like that LrdThomas
<bottoms_up{RD}> but then LrdThomas, in that situation.. the wench is getting what
she wants too *Gri*
<`abi> All right ... any parting thoughts, questions, nice succinct wrapups?
<bottoms_up{RD}> i want everything, i need some things *grin*
<Kilted_One> we want what we need and we need what we want and are left wanting!!
* `abi smiles at bottoms ... and it might just be that simple
<SkyDom> I want another beer.....I need a taxi
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol SkyDom ;)
<LrdThomas> i dunno bottoms.... and lets see... if you go to #nillas_R-us...
you'll prolly find someone who cares. <wink>
<`abi> didn't someone once say that you should always leave them wanting KO?
<bottoms_up{RD}> rofl LrdThomas *slight pouty look* ;)
<SkyDom> I wanted a good burger...I need the cook.
<Kilted_One> why should the be left wanting me????
<|Karen> wants...more money, a flat stomach, a great wardrobe that shows my body
to it's best advantage, more books, and a relationship..
<`abi> thank you all for eschewing the Oscars in favour of our discussion .... and
I wish for all everything that you need and some of what you want