March 25 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> I've set a channel message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Must I? ...Negotiating Soft Limits". The moderator tonight is victoria_angel{Flint}. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> -
* MistressSilver wavess
<BernieRoehl> And now, over to victoria_angel{Flint}
<victoria_angel{Flint}> does the ops get the privilidge of not being booted off?
<victoria_angel{Flint}> hope so
<victoria_angel{Flint}> thank you Bernie
<victoria_angel{Flint}> i was advised that a soft limit is generally considered to be something which is open to negotiation
<victoria_angel{Flint}> it might be something that you really do not wish to do, but are open to consider it
<victoria_angel{Flint}> i would like to hear comments from both the Dom/es and subs
<janiz> mm i thought..a soft limit is something you havent done but wanted to
<BernieRoehl> Quite often, the most interesting things to explore are the ones right around someone's soft limits
<janiz> and a hard limits is something you really do not want to do..but will consider it
<dalian> hmmm...i always considered soft limits to be those which are to be known but not open for negotiation...the Dom/me has the decision power to do as he/she wishes with those...and that hard limits are non-negotiable
<BernieRoehl> Certainly, if someone identifies it as a "soft" limit then they probably see it as something that they might potentially want to try, but perhaps not yet or perhaps only if the circumstances are just right
<u4ic-fx> or perhaps BernieRoehl, they've had bad previous experiences with it, and thus need to deal with those issues....
* Kilted_One thought that a "soft limit" was one that had been prior negotiated but was not defined as a hard limit and during the scene it "possible" could be "streached" based on how the scene played out
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with u4ic-fx
<u4ic-fx> depending on the partner, i'd like to think that my soft limits would be discussed and explored
<u4ic-fx> to broaden my horizons
<janiz> wow..isnt it interesing..of all the different meaning to "soft limits"
<u4ic-fx> as it were
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> with me i did a check list and only my hard limits are negotiated from time to time
<victoria_angel{Flint}> so using a checklist for example, with ratings of 1-5, would the soft limits be those in the middle , and the hard limit be the one nearest to the NO?
<u4ic-fx> for example, say my dominant really loves electrical play, but for me it is a soft limit...
<u4ic-fx> it is something that maybe over time we could work on to see if i enjoy..
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> limits change
<u4ic-fx> victoria_angel{Flint} : on the lists i've seen, 0=hard limit, 1= soft limit 2= dislike but will do 3 = ambigious 4= like 5= like alot more oh baby oh baby oh baby!!!!
<janiz> soft limits are for me...1-5 ...1-5 equally my plesure from it...hard limits are..No
<BernieRoehl> To me, victoria_angel{Flint}, I would treat a "NO" on a checklist as being a hard limit and everything else as being negotiable. In practice, though, I rarely bother with things that someone ranked a 1 or even 2 [`abi:#BDSM-kw PING]
<LadyTabitha> hello
<LadyTabitha> A/all
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i have done 2 check lists in 8 months and i have changed changing some of my hard limits to soft already
<victoria_angel{Flint}> .
<u4ic-fx> *nods* autumn`breeze{JFC}, i too have found the same thing...
<u4ic-fx> however i've also found the reverse... as i've learned about more types of play, somethings that in my naivity would have considered.. I now consider to be hard limits
<BLiSs301> can agree with that u4ic-fx
<u4ic-fx> afterall
* autumn`breeze{JFC} agrees
<u4ic-fx> a little knowledge goes to show that ignorance isnt BLiSs301
<u4ic-fx> er bliss I mean
<u4ic-fx> lol
<janiz> something that was a soft limit for me...turned into a very hard limit cause it was done wrong the first time..took about 8 months for me to agree to try it again
<u4ic-fx> alot of my nilla friends have had bad experiences with anal sex.. (okay so they arent quite so 'nilla)
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> that can happen janiz
<u4ic-fx> and as a result.. they become squicked by it...
<u4ic-fx> as janiz mentioned it becomes a hard limit due to that bad experience till the individual wraps thier head around it and gets into a head space to try it again
<janiz> anal sex isnt vinalla?..*l*..then i have been a perv longer then i thoujght
<janiz> u4ic...i cried the whole time the 2nd time..i dont really remember it happening...
<u4ic-fx> janiz : it all depends on how thick the glasses you look through are
<u4ic-fx> ;)
<dalian> and that can take considerable amount of time...there are still a couple things that i will not attempt again due to a bad experience
<janiz> i was terrified..but knew for me..i had to do it
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> it's all in the angle lol
<janiz> and here i just thought i was a brat
* nymazoiay{DA}^ chuckles
<janiz> it took me a long time to realize..that even Tops make mistakes
<u4ic-fx> okay
<janiz> but for me..it was a matter of how it was dealt with..or in my case not dealt with..~sadly~
<u4ic-fx> so how does one aproach thier soft limits with either thier sub or Dominant?
<dalian> good point janiz
* autumn`breeze{JFC} yearning to learn is pushing her to over turn her hard limits
<u4ic-fx> is it just a matter of handing them a checklist and saying 'these are my soft limits'
<janiz> u4ic..i think...we need a diffinition of soft limits..as they seem to be varied...
<u4ic-fx> janiz : i thought we allready defined em :)
<janiz> oh sorry..u4ic...i must have missed it
<Stevius> could someone explain what is the attraction in approaching soft limits?
<BLiSs301> good question Stevius
<u4ic-fx> Stevius : for me, its a matter of expanding my horizons. exploring new and exciting things, or scary things for that matter
<janiz> what is the attraction?..im not sure i understand the question Sir
<u4ic-fx> or working through things that bother me, so that I nolonger am bothered by them
<nymazoiay{DA}^> If I may, my view on soft limits are things I have not tried and do not ( or at least I don't think they do) appeal to me. They may be approached slowly... and overturned to turn ons or turned into hard limits
<janiz> so..for me...when there is something i want to try...i ask...simply...ask..
<victoria_angel> but janiz, what if you say you aren't sure, and your Master says try....
<janiz> i wanted to try fireplay...so, i have a Friend..who was experienced in it..so i asked
<janiz> i think victoria..there is a point that you have to say Yes Sir....you always have your safeword...
<u4ic-fx> *nods* at that point your safewords become even more so important
<janiz> i have seen subs..say they want to try something....like needle play..and have agreed to it..but as soo as the needle touched their skin..they safeworded....but...it was a step closer
* nymazoiay{DA}^ nods to that
<Stevius> do soft limits apply only to subs?
<victoria_angel> i guess that is what i'm getting at - the limits, maybe negotiated, are always expanded, but towards the goal of the Dom/me
<janiz> has anyone heard of the acroynum..ssrc
<u4ic-fx> Stevius : i would think not...
<victoria_angel> me neither Stevius
<janiz> NO>>>>>> Stevius.... and i think..sometimes that is a problem
<u4ic-fx> how would respecting a Dominants limits be any less invalid than respecting a subs limits...
<janiz> i think..that a Top can and should use His/Her safewords also
<u4ic-fx> exactly
<u4ic-fx> just because I'm a submissive(switch) doesnt mean i'm a doormat,
<janiz> i have been in the position of a Top..NOT using a safeword..but instead... instilled pain on me..that i had to red out...
<LrdTZ> Tops use safewords??? Grin. not many would do that.
<u4ic-fx> i'm still a person who has to deal with reality......
* KO_n_rhiannon laughs and thinks that Doms/Masters/Dommes didnt have limits <EG>
<janiz> LrdTZ...dont i know it...*laughing*
<janiz> what does that mean u4ic?
<nymazoiay{DA}^> isn't that just like saying Men cant get breast cancer?
<u4ic-fx> LrdTZ : so what would you do if you were in a scene, and the sub started to get just a lil too intense in some casual play..
<u4ic-fx> more intense say than you are prepared to handle
<u4ic-fx> what do you do to bring them down to earth?
<janiz> if its past your limit u4ic..then safeword..and talk about it afterwards
<u4ic-fx> exactly janiz...
<janiz> talking about a scene..in my opinion...afterwards..is as important as the negiations before hand
<u4ic-fx> take a step back to reality ... deal with the issue as soon as apropriate.. and then move on :)
<janiz> i agree with you u4ic...100%...unfortunately..not all do
<nymazoiay{DA}^> this may also have a cross with submissives thinking they have to push.. have to get "through" the pain.. for their Sir, so they do not call a safe word.
<nymazoiay{DA}^> As Dom/me's may think they cant call a safe word because... what would their submissive think?
<LrdTZ> to me a red is my mistake not one the submissive makes.
<nymazoiay{DA}^> or other Dom/me's for that matter
<BLiSs301> interesting concept LrdTZ
<nymazoiay{DA}^> I remember You saying that LrdTZ Sir... and wouldn't one think it is a no fault situation for E/either?
<Guest67912> go to www.multris.com really cool tetris game!!!
<nymazoiay{DA}^> just a matter or way of communicating
<dalian> i don't think so...the Dom is one in control at all times
<LrdTZ> If i'm reading a submissive right then there should be no need for red. I should be able to and know my submissive well enough that if I have pushed them to a red then I have pushed that limit far to far.
<Stevius> that sounds like a good concept LrdTZ
<KO_n_rhiannon> would that not be such only if the submissive called yellow and you kept going or if you ramped up way to fast without knowing the limits LrdTZ
<LrdTZ> Soft limits are there to be pushed but when you push a limit to the extreme you have gone too far. We or I as a Dominante have to know the limits my submissives have and on the same line. I have to know my own limits and I can push them as well but even I have hard limits.
<LrdTZ> not to me KO_n_rhiannon I have learned to watch for reaction from submissives and you can red with out a yellow. and even a yellow should be spoted coming.
* KO_n_rhiannon nods and agrees with LrdTZ...that is my point you should see the yellow coming so a red would mean inatentativeness on the Dom/me's part hence your comment about it being the Dom/mes fault
<BLiSs301> unless the dom wanted to work towards a red
<janiz> Bliss..but why would a Top want to do that?
<LrdTZ> agreed KO_n_rhiannon
<BLiSs301> i dont know janiz, i suppoose there might be a number of reasons
<LrdTZ> why would a Dom want to red anyone??? yellows are fun. Red are scene ending.
<janiz> well BliSs..if you can think of one..i'd sure like to hear it
<BLiSs301> i havent experienced it myself but i've heard doms speak about pushing their subs that far, next time i should ask why
<Stevius> LrdTZ, when a sub is being 'pushed', do you mean you are approaching the bounds of consensuality (them doing something for you)
<{autumn}U> red sometimes just happens......it isn't necessarily intended.....
<{autumn}U> and it doesn't always happen because of carelessness
<silken_lips> i agree autumn, i can be getting close to yellow, and all of the sudden its over to red and i dont even have time to call out
<dalian> can you give an example autumn`breeze{JFC}?
<silken_lips> not the Doms fault
* KO_n_rhiannon thinks that there is a huge difference between inatentativeness and carelessness
<{autumn}U> exactly silken
<{autumn}U> i have called quits on something that i didn't expect would need it.....it was a surprise for both of us.......
<victoria_angel> ok, so, what if the 'soft limit' belongs to the Dom/me and the submissive thinks it is a 'hard limit'
<LrdTZ> then the Dom does not do it. a Hard limit is not to be breached.
* dalian agrees with LrdTZ
<victoria_angel> i was told by other subs that is like saying NO and that isn't appropriate for a sub
<LrdTZ> breaching a Hard Limit is nonconsensual.
<{autumn}U> i usually agree to meet in the middle.....in some cases there can be compromise
* KO_n_rhiannon thinks that victoria_angel's question might imply that the submissive is in control???
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> my Master knows my body language so He doesn't push me to red very often yellow all the time
<dalian> i think it depends on the dynamics of the relationship as to whether hard limits are to be breached
<silken_lips> a hard limit should be just that, hard
<silken_lips> its like kids or blood
<janiz> dalian..then you hard limits definition are different then mine..
<silken_lips> while the soft limits are something to stretch
<victoria_angel> KO, no not really in control
<{autumn}U> i agree......but.....i have a couple of hard limits i would reconsider for Unholy if we could agree on the circumstances under which the act occured
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i am usually the one who pushes myself to the hard limits and it surprises Him
<victoria_angel> earlier someone said that hard limits could be renegotiated occasionally
<{autumn}U> i think some can
<silken_lips> then they are not truly hard autumn
<{autumn}U> yes they were at the time
<{autumn}U> very hard
<{autumn}U> but
<dalian> as a slave i would think my hard limits are left ot the discretion of my Master...however...it would take a considerable amount of time to get to that point, hence i would have the understanding that hard limits may be negotiated until such time
<{autumn}U> i grew and my limits changed
<silken_lips> true, but what i am saying is that you changed the limits from hard to soft
<silken_lips> not the Dom
<silken_lips> soft limits are the ones a Dom pushes
* KO_n_rhiannon thinks that if the Dom/me sees the "soft limit" then he/she is in control will work to this limit if the limit is more that the submissive is willing to take then yellow would be called...hence there would be no reason to think that the submissive's "hard limit" was affected because one felt that it was a soft limit
<silken_lips> hard ones i think the sub needs to let go of first
<LrdTZ> and limits do change. Hard limits today will be soft limits tomorrow but. untill the Submissive changes them from Hard to Soft they are still hard.
* KO_n_rhiannon says rhiannon agrees with dalian
<{autumn}U> exactly LrdTZ
<silken_lips> exactly LrdTZ
<silken_lips> oops, too much agreement lol
<Stevius> does anyone see a danger in pushing limits...todays hard limits are tomorrows soft limits and the next day's no limit
<victoria_angel> i do
<{autumn}U> i do too.....
<victoria_angel> for some acts, and some people, the hard limit will always be that
<silken_lips> push too fast and todays soft limit may become a hard one
* dalian nods
<Stevius> so there is a goal, of pushing limits, but there is also a danger
<{autumn}U> but when i was new at all this i had a million hard limits and only a handful now......and without a gentle push occasionally i might not have experienced a few things i truly enjoy now
<Stevius> what might be a downside to pushing limits?
<{autumn}U> losing your sub
<{autumn}U> emotional messes
<KO_n_rhiannon> I think like most things in life there is a problem with and excess of anything and everything but some of everything is growth
<silken_lips> making your sub less willing to try new things if pushed too hard
<AmRicardo> good night
<Jeff45^> hello all
* KO_n_rhiannon nods and thanks Justice^ [autumn`breeze{JFC}:#bdsm-kw PING] -> [#bdsm-kw] PING
<{autumn}U> Bernie may i pm for a sec?
<KO_n_rhiannon> hiya vixie you just sneek in there too??
<`vixie> yup
<BernieRoehl> Sure, autumn`breeze{JFC}
<{autumn}U> that makes me giggle......i just can't help it
* BernieRoehl notices that it's 10 pm, and since IRC has been acting up, it might be time to wrap up the discussion
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> hi {autumn}U
<v_a{Flint}> well, dalnet has certainly made this an eventful evening for me, can't remember when i've been the victim so much in one night...lol
* `vixie has to start getting ready for bed anyways
* `vixie waves g'nite
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> nite all
<KO_n_rhiannon> ty victoria for your efforts tonight
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, v_a{Flint}, for moderating the discussion under such trying IRC circumstances!
<v_a{Flint}> your welcome, i did see some interesting comments
<v_a{Flint}> and perspectives
<dalian> great discussion!