March 17, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's just turning 9 pm. Time for our weekly discussion!
<endlessdesire{MB}> .....waiting patiently
<endlessdesire{MB}> greetings S_W
<endlessdesire{MB}> hello zaR
* Brigg settles back in from RTI's
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "D/s Fantasies vs D/s Realities". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> So... fantasy and reality. And opening thoughts?
* ^^^zaR^^^ thinks, one hurts more than the other
<Brigg> hmm .. all prospective.
<Brigg> *L* with ^^^zaR^^^
<endlessdesire{MB}> yep that's him...
<Kilted_One> fantasy is great until reality takes over
<oasis{Omy}> my reality is what many vanillas fantasize about in sex... winks
<Brigg> hmmm.
<Brigg> I would tend to agree more with oasis{Omy} and dis agree with Kilted_One ... apologies ..
<BernieRoehl> That's actually a good point, oasis
<BernieRoehl> We do the things that other people fantasize about
<S_W> Fantasies are fine unless tempered by the knowldege of what the underlying reality is. There is nothing worse than someone entering the Scene whose expectations are shaped by the Story of O and Anne Rice tales - supposing those things are true.
<Brigg> I know that a LOT of what I have in My life now, I would never have even DARED to dream about, let alone fantasize about until I was further along .. and with each fantasty, there comes another area to explore ...
<S_W> unless = when
* ^^^zaR^^^ thinks hanging suspended upside down while being whupped is easier on the body in fantasy,,and that that its easy to get injured making the leap unless what you plan on doing is well researched before hand
<BernieRoehl> So that transition, from fantasy to reality, has some danger to it
<oasis{Omy}> we can have fantasy if we temper them with logic
<Kilted_One> so Briggs does that not mean you are not content with your "new" reality that once was your fantasy, starting once again to fantasize/ reality circle again
<^^^zaR^^^> yes, i think so Bernie,, its ok to take fantasy over to reality, but you must work slowly (IMHO)
<Brigg> The point where fantasy has to remain in the netherworld, is where they cross a definitive line ... that line is directly proportional to the experience and knowledge that those who want to enjoy it actually have .. there are other lines that are uncrossable (hopefuly .. ie: "snuff" fantasies .. had a partner who had those fantasies) ... and there you play with the fringes of the fantasy .. but not the whole.
<endlessdesire{MB}> my fantasy became reality after persuing it for almost 9 years... persistancy and breast enhancers paid off.. lol (j/k)
<Brigg> One is **NEVER** content with the life they have .. and they ALWAYS want more .. it is a human condition ...
<^^^zaR^^^> has anyone ever crossed over on the fantasy line and found it was better left to the imagaination?
<Brigg> or typically they do not want more ...
<Brigg> *L*
<Brigg> YES!!!!
<Brigg> How many people have fantasized about being wioth a particular 'someone' and fouind it better had it been left there .. *L*
<S_W> amen to that Brigg
<endlessdesire{MB}> omg yes...
<Fyre{j}> I wanted to meet the mythical miss right, until I heard her first name was always
<^^^zaR^^^> fantasy can be wonderful, but sometimes our fantasys dont live up to the expectations, or tasting them, can leave you with a sense of, well now what,,,,
* BernieRoehl smiles
<S_W> But that is hardly confined to D/s (or SM). The fact that the reality of a person can't cash the cheques our fantasies write for them is nothing new or unusual to the Scene
<endlessdesire{MB}> one never wants to jump ito such a transition, i know one girl who did such and her first real life encounter landed her in the hospital....:(
<kierana> i agree zaR...
<oasis{Omy}> i see it like the book vs the movie... in my mind the book is so much more vivid.. and exciting... ..once made to a movie.. some of the magic is lost to reality
<BernieRoehl> (Just realized the auto-message wasn't set, so some people misssed it)
<BernieRoehl> (Here it is again...)
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "D/s Fantasies vs D/s Realities". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<Fyre{j}> There is a balance point between fanatasy and reality, taking something that your partner fantasizes about and attempting to make it as real as possible for them
<endlessdesire{MB}> (some more than others *cough*
<BernieRoehl> Yes, that process of turning fantasy into reality is very intersting... taking someone's dreams and maknig them happen can be very rewarding
<^^^zaR^^^> i can whisper into LS's ear, some very very dark fantasys,,however, i won't cross that border into reality with them, so they remain for what they are intended,,fantasy
<S_W> It does not mean that any fantasy is better than the reality of it though. That is neither fair nor accurate - and to say that such is so demeans a lot that the Scene has to offer. It's simply that sometimes a wish comes true and it's GREAT - and sometimes it does not.
<endlessdesire{MB}> *raises arm high*
<Brigg> sorry ... not sure where we are, but I was going to say that on the other hand I was surprised by the fact that there were some fantasies that I NEVER thought I would even DARE to look at, that once tasted bacame an IMMEDIATE part of my 'gotta have' lists
<Brigg> go ahead hon.
<^^^zaR^^^> they joy of keeping an open mind Brigg ;)
<oasis{Omy}> some of my fanatasies.. involve my greatest fears...
<Brigg> *L* .. indeed ^^^zaR^^^
<Fyre{j}> Alot of people leaves their fantasies unspoken, it having the courage to open up and share some of those "dark secrets" that invigorate a relationship.
<Brigg> I think fantasies when on the brink of becomming a reality are automatically inclusivce of fear tho .... after all ... remember the addage "Beware what you ask for .. you just may receive it" ...
<oasis{Omy}> I have known a few subbies that had fantasies of submission.. theyre ideal what should happen... when it came to play they where shocked into reality rather quickly..
<S_W> Actually - I think that is one of the best uses for the internet. You can usually get a person's deep dark fantasies in no time flat whilst in chat. "Give a man amask - he'll tell you the truth ever time" <Oscar Wilde>
<BernieRoehl> And hwo do they react to that, oasis?
<LdyAkilah> that can depend on how detailed the fantasy is oasis{Omy}
<Brigg> I think that is one of the blessings of this lifestyle Fyre{j} ... the lifestyule, unto itself in MANY respects, *IS* fantasy come to reality ... *AND* ... with it being ***SO*** heavily steeped in the very inner workings of a person, that makes it all the more open to trying things never dared thought of before ... irt is suddenly safe ....
<endlessdesire{MB}> i think in an already developed BDSM relationship, sharing ones fantasy helps things along as to what may be missing, one can learn what another likes, or another dreads..
<oasis{Omy}> anger blame... are often reactions.. as well as disapointment..
<LdyAkilah> if someone has a kidnap fantasy that is so detailed as to having someone abduct them from their home while they are doing dishes and he must be 6'4 and handsome and it occurs on the Ides of March at may not
* Brigg can see and agree with oasis{Omy}
<kierana> fantasy also shows one's partner some of how you think, what moves you to act the way you do, how you feel about situations...etc
<LdyAkilah> they set themselves up for disappointment if they carry it out any less than those details...
<oasis{Omy}> for many the dream is so powerful they forget what truth actually is..
<S_W> Some fantasies shold perhpas stay that way. Others need some time to develop and are worth a second or third try. Whatever the case - if someone tells you their fantasy - they are sharing a private part of themselves. If you are going to try and make them happen - it's not a trivial matter.
* ^^^zaR^^^ has always been very curious about Gor, and thinks it represents a beautiful sector of the lifestyle, but knowing how dang headstrong i am, i havent tasted it,,not wanting to offend those in it rl, and yes, leary that i might taste something i am not ready for
<BernieRoehl> I find part of the key is to extract the main, central elements of the fantasy -- separate from the specific details -- and set up a scenario that involves them.
<^^^zaR^^^> but i still enjoy thinking about it
<BernieRoehl> If you try to act out their fantasy verbatim, it becomes a case of the movie not living up to the book.
<kierana> true, and some fantasies are just not manageable for some to act out
<oasis{Omy}> if you incorporate bits of the fantasy... enough to make the blood boil.. heart race.. they will beg for more
<S_W> not necessarily Bernie - and that I think misses the point of those kinds of things. Some fantasies - inherently - should not be scripted and so youi are right on that score. However...
<S_W> part of the fun of it all CAN be the cscripting - the planning. If you want to script it out it becomes a mutual thing. Don';t treat the planning part as trivial. It can be the FUN of it too.
<Brigg> nodding .. as well as if you go to that route, you may well be giving up the control essential to make it a true experience .. ie: My slave says that she wants something ata specific time andplace and manner ... whereas if I take the basic building blocks of what it is she seeks and maniuplate it to something that is disrtinctly from Me and even more distinctly US .. then .. there is something unexpoected and natural in manyt a way .. not
<BernieRoehl> Absolutely -- but simply taking someone's pre-existing fantasy and trying to go through it step by step can be problematic
<S_W> Depends on the Scene. Is the surprise important to the Scene? Usually - but not always.
<S_W> yes, I agree with you on that.
<BernieRoehl> I've met submissives who have had essentially the same fantasy playing through their mind for years -- thinking about it, dreaming about it, masturbating to it, over and over
<oasis{Omy}> i have several fanatsies such as that.. there is one common element... total loss of control...
<BernieRoehl> Nothing in the real world will ever match that carefully crafted fantasy that's been honed and perfected over such a long period of time. But the essential elements of the fantasy can be a useful starting point for building a scene.
<BernieRoehl> Yes, oasis -- spotting that sort of element is really important. Total loss of control is a specific, achievable goal.
<S_W> "I want to be caned in the woods with wildflowers and birds chirping about me", otoh, necessarily loses some of the spur-of-the-momentness to it all :-)
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, SW! Not only that, the birds may not cooperate. :-)
* ^^^zaR^^^ has learned that sounds good, but there are mosquitos out there in the woods
<BernieRoehl> Most birds tend to fly away when the first cane stroke lands! :-)
<^^^zaR^^^> poor LS spent more time swatting the squitos than my rump
<LdyAkilah> a little blood play can be fun <g>
* S_W prefers the full moon and the wolves howling scene, but enough digression :-)
<oasis{Omy}> loves it when the uninvited campers show up too...
* BernieRoehl smiles
<kierana> lol
<BernieRoehl> So do people find their fantasies have changed, as they've turned more and more of them into reality?
<oasis{Omy}> though if its a humiliation fantasy...
<^^^zaR^^^> HOWEVER, what i thougt would be a lovely activity, now is equated with a punishment,, mosquitos and all
<S_W> of course - and the list necessarily changes as what was once fantasy becomes reality.
<oasis{Omy}> my fantasies have become more intense... less.. the Black Knight theme lol
<LdyAkilah> if the fantasy involves total loss of control, the feelings of loss of control, then the how's are not always as important as achieving that feeling
<LdyAkilah> so there can be many ways that fantasy can be relived by changing how the loss of control happens
<BernieRoehl> ... and are the new fantasies shaped by your actual real-life experiences?
* BernieRoehl taps the screen, wondering if people are all just thinking really hard right now
<^^^zaR^^^> ;)
<oasis{Omy}> hehe
<S_W> One of hte problems, as I see it, is a "checklist approach" to fantasies. Sort of a gottem, gottem, gottem, *need'em* approach to BDSM is not conducive to a great scene. I have watched many new submissives approach their "fantasies into reality" with this method. I think its a bad idea.
* BernieRoehl tends to agree
<^^^zaR^^^> how so, and why?
<BernieRoehl> It's one thing to have a list of specific physical activities that one wants to try, but when it comes to detailed fantasies, there needs to be some flexibility
<oasis{Omy}> Master forever tell me .. be careful what you wish for... hmm havent sat easy since
<LdyAkilah> many doms do that too...using that as a script to dealing with the sub
<S_W> Instead of ticking off the checkieboxes - doesn't it make more sense to explore the fantasy form a bunch of angles? Otherwise - it becomes this laundry list of chores - or worse - a competition.
<^^^zaR^^^> nod nod,,or a "little to the left" syndrome
<TyWebb> is reality really possible? Isn't the fantasy of being forced to do what you really wanted to do in the first place a little difficult to achieve?
<Nocturnal`> If something needs to be scripted out in that much detail, you're going to have a number of problems, one of the biggest I can see is having the reality come nowhere close to living up to the original fantasy
<oasis{Omy}> maybe we have to sit back look at our fantasies .. see if our partner has similar ones .. work together for mutal fufilment... i see many fantasies as essentially selfish
<S_W> that is the nature of fantisies oasis - and you are right of course - but even if they ARE selfish - that doesn't make it a bad thing. It's a give and get over time - not necessarily by scene.
<{OT}cariye> maybe its possible to get so caught up in "acting" out the list of fantasies that people can forget the reality?
<oasis{Omy}> ive seen tht happen.. people so involved in thier dreams.. they forget truth
<Brigg> I think it is easy for ANYONE to lose focus and go past where they should ... that is what and why we are so hot about safe words and learning andd the like.
<Nocturnal`> It's far more fun to take the concept behind a fantasy, then turn it into something original... that way, there are surprises involved, something unexpected... IMO
* ^^^zaR^^^ thinks that cyber D/s is a fantasy, rl D/s is a reality, and no matter how many times you can type in oooh owwww, its nothing compared to the stings of rl owwwws,,, so crossing over, can be a rude awakening to an otherwise great fantasy, or a helluva letdown
* kierana nods
<{OT}cariye> but if each meeting or scene is a reenactment of a scene where is the real interaction ?
<{OT}cariye> sorry of a fantasy
<^^^zaR^^^> or an opening door to a new reality
<BernieRoehl> Does reality ever disappoint? Does it fail to live up to the fantasies?
<S_W> If the crossing over is from online to realtime - this is so BIG an issue it's a new topic I think.
<{OT}cariye> yes reality disappoints
<^^^zaR^^^> perhaps, i only ment to demonstrate, that its easier to think about something than to experience it
<Brigg> I think that is where gently moving one through the stages of fantasy into reality is so important .. ie: warmning up ... giving the building step s to the one so they can endure long enough and well enough to progress ...
* {OT}cariye has a fantasy of long days spent doing nothing but serving Master ..reality is that we are both busy people and can not live a lazy life
<S_W> Hell yes Bernie. It happens. It happens all the time. The more important thing is to recognize that sometimes they are better too.
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement
<Brigg> Nodding
<BernieRoehl> So what about managing the fantasy/reality transition? What can we do to make it easier for people, and for ourselves?
<Nocturnal`> Fantasy is much easier than reality... especially in s/m... ain a cyber scene or in a fantasy, you can go through or do almost anything to someone... reality is a lot tougher
<Brigg> I think that is where, as with even the trqansition from vt to rt, different mediums help.
<yummy> well realise that your first scene isn't likely to be a complicated one including a cast of 4 and a staged kidnapping...reality is often not as elaborate as fantasy
<LdyAkilah> being honest about the fantasy helps too
<S_W> "Tell me what to do and I'll pretend to do it" is not a good basis for a scene.
<yummy> and to realise that your body has limitations your fantasy life doesn't
<Nocturnal`> nothing can really substitute for r/t IMO... I've been at this for a lot of years... and the relationships are two completely different animals
<Brigg> IE: I have a fantasy of raping My slave .. (as an example) ... and I want to meet her .. ahve only talked to her 'on line' .. but then you add the phone .. and camming .. and letters ... and then there are commands and 'sessions' unsing those mediiums ... it is built up to the point where upon meeting iut is not a huge wall of intensity, but rather there has been a step up to thatlevel ... am I making any sense?
<^^^zaR^^^> i agree Nocturnal,, even the interactions of the players are different
<endlessdesire{MB}> i don't think your making sense Master Brigg, i think more camming is needed... :P
<Brigg> *LOL*
<Brigg> INDEED!!! ... *G*
<S_W> They are two different animals. If the basis for fantasy is not tempered by a foreknowledge of reality. Disaster is moments away. Even individual knowledge of SM cna't compensate for a personal dynamic
<S_W> it's when you have the dynamic that bringing fantasy to reality - over time - works best, IMO.
<^^^zaR^^^> after all that prep though Brigg, when it comes down to acting out that fantasy,,ir actual life,,how do you or would you prepare your partner to fufill that role?
<Brigg> Depends on what the fantasy is .... *IF* it is, say to be used anally ... first time ever .... there might be anal play with vcarious sized toys ... etc ... the dynamics of the 'actual event' will be just as profound as not, but the prep would make it more ... hmm .. pallateable ...
<BernieRoehl> Well, just five minutes left to go... anyone havev any other thoughts on fantasy vs reality?
<Brigg> I regrettable have to step away from the conversation at this point ... My slave needs Me ... Be well All and all ....
* ^^^zaR^^^ still contimplates Gor, but knows she would find herself chained to the center whipping post with great regularity, so,,thinks that one thru agian....
<LdyAkilah> that is a bad thing??
<^^^zaR^^^> lol
<S_W> The reality can make the fantasy possible. But if that's its only purpose - you're in the wrong reality!
<BernieRoehl> Well, let's wrap it up there
<BernieRoehl> I'm going to close the log, and go offline to start processing and uploading it
<BernieRoehl> Thank for participating, everyone!
<dalian> thanks Bernie...great discussion as always