March 5, 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic channel message that reads...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Sex, Romance and D/s". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<NITESLIDER> Bernie may I message you please
<BernieRoehl> Sure, NITESLIDER, but I'm going to be moderating
<BernieRoehl> The topic tonight is fairly broad. Does anyone have any opening thoughts on the connection between Sex, Romance, and D/s?
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
<|Karen> All three are important to me. I want 'em.
<Achilles{tr}> Does the discussion assume an inherent connection between sex and romance?
<BernieRoehl> The three things could be completely independent, or connected
<shimmer``> i would hope not, Achilles Sir
* |Karen wants 'em all in the same relationship.
<BernieRoehl> Sex without romance is certainly possible, as is sex without D/s. (Yeah, I know -- I was surprised too!) :-)
<dalian> they enhance each other in combination
* |Karen feels that they are very much interconnected
<shimmer``> lol
<`slutkat`> as is D/s without sex..
<`vixie> hiya shado!
<`slutkat`> get all the vice versa's in there...
* |Karen cheerfully acknowledges that not everyone feels the same
<BernieRoehl> Yes, and that's one of the more interesting questions slutkat. Is D/s really about sex, or is it something that can exist independent of it?
<`slutkat`> can exist independent of it
<Achilles{tr}> Yes... certainly there can be D/s without sex.
* shimmer`` waves at Paladin69 :)
<`slutkat`> not that many Doms seem to KNOW that.. <s>
<BernieRoehl> Personally I agree, Achilles. However, for some people D/s is basically a component of their sex lives.
<Achilles{tr}> Well, perhaps that has something to do with why They want to be Dom's?
<`slutkat`> why, Achilles, for the sex?
<Achilles{tr}> Is it for the Domination itself or for the kinky sex? Also, I would say there are also subs with a similar challenge.
<shimmer``> for me, D/s and sex go hand in hand, but they don't always in practice.
* Jaz^ agrees with shimmer
* |Karen smiles 'some people think that sex is a basically a component of one's D/s life'
* SirLancelot` agrees with Achilles{tr}
<Achilles{tr}> Different people want different things from their D/s lives. sex and romance may be components of it. They might not.
<Achilles{tr}> Is it still D/s?
<Achilles{tr}> To them, yes.. it is.
<SirLancelot`> I think it is
<BernieRoehl> There are certainly other satisfactions in D/s beyond just sex.
<shimmer``> D/s is anything two people (or more) think it is, imho
<shimmer``> or even one person *grin*
* BernieRoehl tends to agree with shimmer on that
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> I have a few strong feelings and concerns about some of the messages I've seen on the lists lately that put those of us who have embraced BDSM as a major part of our lifestyle and who seek subs with whom the relationship will go sexual as being perverts who are turning BDSM into little more than sex play
<Achilles{tr}> Certainly shimmer. On the other hand two people might be practicing D/s to My mind but not call it that themselves. Definitions have to be thought of with a certain flexibility.
<shimmer``> i agree, Achilles Sir. There is no "one true way"
* BernieRoehl nods
<|Karen> what lists are you reading, Lady_Kate?
<BernieRoehl> Out of curiosity, how many here have had a D/s relationship at some point in their lives that was non-sexual?
<|Karen> I've not noticed such a thread.
<shimmer``> personally, i don't care what other people think of my D/s relationship
* `slutkat` raises her hand
<shimmer``> i have, Bernie Sir
<Achilles{tr}> I have Bernie.
* LrdThomas doesn't agree definitions need flexibility.
<bottoms_up{RD}> what constitutes as a relationship Bernie? *grin*
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> As a woman... (Lady Kate has the kbrd), I have accepted that to be completely fulfilled and not to feel like an unpaid pro domme, I must be able to develop relationships with my/our subs that go deeper than the casual... primarily non-sexual SM play we have with friends
<BernieRoehl> That's a good question in itself, bottoms :-)
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> The BDSM Personnals and a couple of others... that tone of message was on three of the lists...
* |Karen nods
* shimmer`` huggles bottoms and wonders if that constitutes a relationship *slurp*
<|Karen> LT? why is it you think definitions don't need flexibility?
* bottoms_up{RD} giggles, pulls ya close ..and whispers "its a start" ;)
* shimmer`` grins
<Achilles{tr}> Apologies Bernie. Must now be going. Later.
<BernieRoehl> So many of us have had D/s relationships without sex. And I'm sure many of us have at some time or another had sexual relationships without D/s.
<shimmer``> yep yep *nodding sadly*
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> Bernie... I hate to admit how many... in fact... the majority of my experiences as a Domme have been non-sexual... I find it very difficult to make the move from Domme to sexual... unless it is something that starts in the intial negotiations and then only if I am able to determine that the sub is indeed attracted to me sexually primarily as a woman and not just cause I'm a Domme who has a good fet wardrobe
<BernieRoehl> What are some of the advantages of combining (or separating) them?
<bottoms_up{RD}> i have heard only from vanilla people and a few Doms that there can be no romance in D/s
* |Karen hasn't had a sexless D/s .....errr, never mind
<shimmer``> well, Bernie, one of the basic advantages of combining them is that a good beating makes me way horny ;))
<`slutkat`> combining you get best of all worlds together
<GayleC> In response to Your earlier comment, Lady Kate, Let's not forget that BDSM has become "trendy" of late, as have Fet Nights and the like.. so many people search for thet kinky sex thing without having a CLUE what the lifestyle is all about...
<`slutkat`> separating, you get best of all worlds but separately
<LrdThomas> karen, because thats mental laziness. Instead of re-defining a term, onvent a new one. Its this "flexibiblity" of terms, that causes so much confusion. imo.
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Ausage hgere now...
* BernieRoehl smiles
<bottoms_up{RD}> LT, i have spent alot of time trying to get "the" defintion to many terms in D/s.. cant get anyone to agree ;0
<shimmer``> for me, sex after an intense scene is a time of serious bonding.
<Jaz^> excellent point shimmer
<shimmer``> thank You, Jaz Sir *S*
* |Karen smiles at LT
<BernieRoehl> So the intensity of the sex is heightened by the play, and that intensity leads to a deeper emotional bond?
<LrdThomas> thamk you bottoms, for making my point.
<Jaz^> Indeed Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Does that leave vanilla sex less satisfying?
<shimmer``> to me Bernie, yes. i am sure it is not the same for others.
<bottoms_up{RD}> so before it became trendy.. did all the 'older generation' D/s lifestylers agree on the terms? *Grin*
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> While as a sadist/masochist I definitely enjoy scenes that are not sexual... The basic nature of me is that I wish to dominate the ones I love, and inflicting pain, being in control, is a strong sexual turn on...
<Jaz^> Hmmm been too long to compare
<shimmer``> and it also depends who i'm with at the time and the parameters of the realtionship
<|Karen> personally, I like to exercise my mental muscle in the act of translation....accepting that everyone uses the same words differently because there isn't a damn thing I can do to change that....and 'translate' into my experience
* GayleC laughing with bottoms_up
<BernieRoehl> It's the same for me, which is why I really don't do vanilla any more, but I'm curious whether others find that vanilla and non-vanilla are simply different "flavours" or that one is an enhanced version of the other
* shimmer`` grins at bottoms_up. hardly, i'm sure :)
<BernieRoehl> There's never been complete agreement on terminology, bottoms
<LrdThomas> sex is one of the four cornerstones of human relationships. Love is a product of all four cornerstones, and D/s is simply the style of relationship that meets the needs of the inidivuals.
<shimmer``> i haven't had vanilla sex in a long time :)
<shimmer``> i don't remember *grin*
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> vanilla .... isn't that a punishment scene (*grin*)
<bottoms_up{RD}> vanilla sex with a D/s partner to me ... is satisying. but the idea of a full vanilla relationship doesnt interest me anymore
<shimmer``> that's an assumption, LT Sir.
<GayleC> nor will there likely ever be Bernie!
* grace` has come across lexicons and such....there must be some agreement for those to have been accepted
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol Kate.. cute ;)
* grace` is searching for a couple of references in another window
<shimmer``> that's an assumption based on everyone agreeing with your theory, LT Sir.
<LrdThomas> yes pretty much bottoms.
<|Karen> can we drag romance back into the discussion?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, let's :-)
<LrdThomas> no shimmer, thats my opinion.
<shimmer``> ./nick romance
<|Karen> do people feel that romance gets in the way of D/s, or enhances it?
* GayleC hauls some romance outta Her purse
<bottoms_up{RD}> has anyone else heard from people that one cant have romance in a relationship that deals with violence?
<BernieRoehl> Of course, romance is a tricky thing. We all know what sex is, and we pretty much know what D/s is. What is romance?
<shimmer``> ok, and my opinion is that your opinion is an assumption, Sir :)
* GayleC hands it to Bernie with a bottle of wine and some candles...
<grace`> depends on the people involved, |Karen....for me? its an inherent part.
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, GayleC :-)
<SirLancelot`> Romance gets in the way for Me
<shimmer``> i don't have a D/s relationship that is violent, bottoms
<LrdThomas> your free to draw whatever conclusions you want shimmer.
<shimmer``> we have intense physical play ... but not violence.
<BernieRoehl> Can you expand on that, SirLancelot?
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Romance is when the dom grabs the subs hair, forces her head back and kisses her... (Modify genders/roles as required)
* shimmer`` smiles and nods at Ausage
<GayleC> If one takes something as simple as sharing a bottle of wine... candles.. it too can turn into the most delightful sharing on a D/s level...
<bottoms_up{RD}> shimmer... i dont call bdsm violent either.. it is something that is said to me from vanillas.. although a couple of Doms have said that you cant have romance with a possession
<SirLancelot`> Seems Romance leads to love...and I'm not in a position to return it.
* BernieRoehl nods
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> candles.. hot wax... real romance
<GayleC> exactly Ausage!
<BernieRoehl> The one word that was left out of the topic tonight (deliberately) was Love.
<GayleC> :)
<grace`> Lancelot....then the logical thing is to make sure your potential partners know that....and that they can recognize your emotional unavailibility
<shimmer``> romance can be as simple as a kiss on a street corner, and as small as a Dom's caress on His sub's cheek as He drips hot wax on her ...
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Picture a candle light dinner... table set for one... the doms sits and feeds his kneeling sub...
* |Karen tilts her head in curiousity 'why 'deliberately', Bernie?'
* BernieRoehl wonders how many people look at candles and think "romantic dinner" and how many look at candles and think "wax play!" :-)
<bottoms_up{RD}> mmmm Kate ;)
* SirLancelot` agrees with grace...but we're human
* shimmer`` nods once again at Ausage
<Panache> evening all
<`abi> so Bernie....are you saying that waxplay isn't romantic?
<BernieRoehl> Love is a very complex emotion, worthy of a separate discussion. Romance is a little more tractable.
* GayleC wants to go to a romantic dinner at Ausage & Lady Kate's house ;)
* BernieRoehl smiles at abi "good point" :-)
* shimmer`` joins Gayle on the trip ;)
<grace`> Lancelot??? but we're human=you don't tell them that up front?
* |Karen looks at candles and sees 'meditation', 'worship', 'peace' more pagan with candles then anything else
* GayleC grins at shimmer
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> bottoms-up... Actually Ausage is typing and LK is chewing on my neck right now...
<SirLancelot`> I do so grace
<LrdThomas> romance is lubing the buttplug. <g>
<shimmer``> rofl, LT
<GayleC> Heh
<bottoms_up{RD}> ahhhh ok lol ;)
<SirLancelot`> In so many words too
<dalian> lol
<grace`> good then
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol LT
<grace`> lol, LT
<BernieRoehl> So far nobody has tried to define romance (though I like LT's definition... *smile*). Anyone care to give it a shot?
<GayleC> even *that* can be done with romance LT ;)
<|Karen> romance is the grease of Love
<shimmer``> i don't think romance is a tangible, Bernie Sir
* GayleC agrees with shimmer
<shimmer``> it is in the eye of the beholder
<SirLancelot`> romance is the play of the hearts
<BernieRoehl> True enough, shimmer. But does it defy definition?
<GayleC> it's like putting a label on anything else..
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> LK says sharing a chat window is romantic... in a minute will switch (pun intended..) and whe'll type while I play with her nipples...
<shimmer``> it can be anything.
<`abi> or the heart of the play SirLancelot`
* SirLancelot` smiles at abi
<LrdThomas> romance is the unexpected tender signs/signals/symbols of a committed dedicated caring.
<shimmer``> i don't buy the Webster definition
<BernieRoehl> Now *there's* a good definition, LT.
<SirLancelot`> and in my books...caring stems from love
<GayleC> ooooooooh abi.. I like that !!
<GayleC> :)
<grace`> romance? hmmm....roses....holding my wrist firmly when i feel lost.....telling me of His pleasure....a call-just because
<grace`> those are acts...not a definition
<bottoms_up{RD}> do you think D/s play brings in more emotional responses and changes just plain recreational sex into a more romantic emotional sex?
<shimmer``> to me it does, Bernie Sir, because i know what is romantic to me, may well be anathema to a lady in India
<shimmer``> i don't think romance is always unexpected.
<grace`> i like it, LrdThomas
<shimmer``> nor is it always tender
* GayleC nods
<`slutkat`> then what do you call the tenderness of a Dom after the playing of a non-sexual D/s scene?
<`slutkat`> can't be romance....
<`slutkat`> its not a romantic relationship
<|Karen> romance is flowers delivered at work accompanied by a note detailing what he wishes me to pack for the weekend away
<BernieRoehl> So there can be "rough romance", just as there can be "rough sex"?
<shimmer``> nor is it always a sign of committed dedicated caring
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> as a woman, I think romance is very important... I never did find the vanillas in my life got it right... they never took me shopping for the right stockings... undies... leather... They never shared the initimacy that I get in my BDSM relationships...
<|Karen> romance is a leather rose
<shimmer``> i think we too often mistake intimacy for romance, and vice versa
<GayleC> tenderness?
* GayleC smiles
* |Karen stops dreaming of the past and nods to shimmer 'I agree'
<Jaz^> I think you adds excitement to the relationship
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> That is aftercare... it may be very intimate... but it isn't what melted knees are made of...
<bottoms_up{RD}> hmmmm i like that idea Bernie... fits me
<shimmer``> non sexual D/s can't be romantic??
<GayleC> or a black one Karen ;)
<BernieRoehl> Let's ask the same question about romance that we did about sex...
* bottoms_up{RD} was thinking of the thorns, personally *Grin*
* shimmer`` smiles at |Karen ... did you think that day would ever come? ;)
<BernieRoehl> Can romance exist without sex? Or sex without romance?
* |Karen laughs, and then smiles at shimmer
* shimmer`` scrolls back ...
* bottoms_up{RD} feels that soft romantic gestures are even MORE meaningful in the larger pendulum swing of bdsm... it is such a contrast to the heavier play
<shimmer``> absolutely
<Jaz^> indeed it can
<shimmer``> yes and yes
<bottoms_up{RD}> yes Bernie sex can
<SirLancelot`> yes it can..but's it's not as much fun!!!
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> Ausage and I have been working out the balance and shifting focus of our relationship over the last few weeks... Romance and intimacy is while we are living separate and going to a fet event with his new sub... and his becoming protective of me puts me into shaking, sub space.... even though we were trying to be just 'friends'... That is romantic... intimate... and sure is true BDSM (and anyone who knows me knows I don't do su
<virginwhore> sex without romance yes, romance without sex, not really but great friendships can
<shimmer``> romance without sex can definitely happen .... bigtime :))
* Jaz^ agrees with shimmer
<|Karen> that's a good point, bottoms....the contrast of soft romance and heavy play is a fantastic stimulant
* `zee{LQ} agrees with all...romance without sex can happen
<Jaz^> look at how many people use IRC for long distance romance
<BernieRoehl> So each of the three can exist independently -- sex, romance and D/s. What happens when two (or three) of them combine?
<bottoms_up{RD}> not just stimulant Karen... the romantic things seem to hit my heart harder
* shimmer`` smiles to herself
<SirLancelot`> others feel the same bottoms_up{RD}
<bottoms_up{RD}> one damn happy and lucky relationship.. thats what happens Bernie *Grin*
* BernieRoehl smiles
<`abi> I believe you've just defined heaven Bernie :)
* |Karen nods to bottoms 'maybe that's why it's so much easier to believe one has fallen in love?'
<virginwhore> for me all three together is the real point of this
<shimmer``> for me too, vw
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> Karen... I still think that one very hot, intense and intensly romantic scene that I wish to explore is to double bottom with good, trusted friends who are topping... will be intensly romantic for Ausage and myself...
<bottoms_up{RD}> hmmmm Karen, for me to fall in love its the day to day crap that moves me in that direction.. not the play or the romance. i know.. boring *Grin*
<BernieRoehl> So the intention is what Karen said at the beginning -- to have sex, romance and D/s all from the same person.
<shimmer``> for me it is, Bernie Sir.
<|Karen> as you wish, Lady_Kate, it doesn't sound like my idea of romantic
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> or people Bernie... we as a human race are capable of loving many...
* shimmer`` hums a song by the Romantics
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol shimmer
* SirLancelot` agrees that all three would be the best
<shimmer``> ;)
<|Karen> for me it is as well, Bernie (oh gawds, shimmer and I agreeing twice?:))
* BernieRoehl smiles
<`zee{LQ}> in that a D/s loving relationship is what we all wish for... sex, romance and D/s would be a part of that all encompassing life
<shimmer``> who woulda thunk it ;)
* bottoms_up{RD} wants all 3 with one person... and some of all of them with others *greedy look*
* SirLancelot` smiles at bottoms_up{RD}
<|Karen> not everyone wishes for it though `zee....I know several people who prefer to keep it all seperate
<BernieRoehl> Here's a tough question -- if you can't have it all, what's your first priority? The romance? The sex? The D/s?
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> Karen... I guess it comes from the connection... the intimacy... I know how I connect to Ausage from the top... I know how I connect to him from the bottom and I know how I connect when we double top... it is the unknown and the experiences from the others that make me quiver thinking of the type of connection we will make in mutual pain...
* `zee{LQ} nods to Karen
<shimmer``> depends where i am in my cycle, Bernie Sir *grin*
<SirLancelot`> Sex and D/s
<|Karen> I'd rather be alone then seperate it
<GayleC> ohhh, challenging question indeed Bernie..
<bottoms_up{RD}> ouchies Bernie..thats a tough one, i dont think i can answer that one ;(
* BernieRoehl looks at shimmer and chuckles
<BernieRoehl> Refreshingly honest answer, shimmer :-)
<GayleC> indeed!
* shimmer`` smiles beatifically
<virginwhore> i can't even answer that one Bernie, it's just too difficult but i guess sex if i *had* to choose
* GayleC laughs
<`abi> I think Maslow would suggest that the priority is whichever one you are lacking
<GayleC> at the time abi?
* GayleC grins
* |Karen refuses to choose between just those three things
<shimmer``> lol
<`abi> yes Gayle :)
<bottoms_up{RD}> ohhh good one abi ;))
<shimmer``> i think it's more than those 3 things Bernie. it's never that simple
* dalian doesn't think she could seperate them either
<BernieRoehl> So what other components are there?
* SirLancelot` finds himself agreeing with Maslow
<shimmer``> it's not like i go to the Dom catalogue and pick a Dom with a b or c qualities
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> I've just gone through the experience of placing an ad on the phone chat line... over 400 responses... almost all... at least 375 of the respondants wanted a Domme who would do sessions... would go sexual.. but not the woman herself or any type of relationship... what is a Dom / sub relationship if not one of the most intense exchanges of trust and emotion!!!
* GayleC does too SirLancelot
<virginwhore> general life compatablility - being comfortable together, doing things.Day to day stuff.
<bottoms_up{RD}> that one element you left out on purpose Bernie... love *Grin*
<shimmer``> physical attraction, mental attraction, things in common
<BernieRoehl> So... friendship, then?
<virginwhore> yes
<BernieRoehl> And love, of course
<BLiSs101> thank gawd lady kate or you would be getting exhausted calling them all back
<GayleC> companionship
<bottoms_up{RD}> friendship is VERY important to me ;)
<shimmer``> D/s doesn't exist in a vaccum
<shimmer``> or vacuum
<shimmer``> i never remember which :)
<GayleC> lol
<Lady_Kate-Ausage> The separation of sex/romance... and BDSM is possible... perhaps even desireable for some people... I did that... It tore me appart... made me feel less like a complete woman... made me feel like an unpaid pro domme and left me sitting at home evenings or having to find friends to go to the movies with!!!
<BernieRoehl> So... love, sex, romance, companionship, friendship, D/s... all from one person.
<SirLancelot`> now that is Heaven!!!
<BernieRoehl> Who here has found that?
<shimmer``> just like in a 'nilla relationship Bernie Sir :) well, 'cept for the D/s part :)
<GayleC> that's some personal ad Bernie ;)
<|Karen> me.
* `abi raises her hand
<bottoms_up{RD}> uh huh ;)
<virginwhore> well to a degree all in one person but not at the exclusion of other friends, perhaps other lovers and players if that works for a couple
* shimmer`` raises her hand quietly
<|Karen> just because I subsequently lost it.....doesn't mean that I didn't once have it.
* GayleC raises her hand with abi and shimmer :)
* SirLancelot` half raises his hand..but doesn't want to explain
<|Karen> I believe I can find it again
* `zee{LQ} raises her hand
* BernieRoehl raises His hand as well
<shimmer``> the thing is, Bernie Sir ... no one person can give me everything i want/need. that's important to remember.
* `abi smiles at SirLancelot` .... halfway to heaven counts ;)
* BLiSs101 raises hers too
* bottoms_up{RD} raises BOTH hands *Grin*
* BernieRoehl nods
* SirLancelot` winks at abi
<LrdThomas> at the same time? <g>
<virginwhore> i think it's possible to find it but not really possible for one person to be everything for another. Most healthypeople can't just have one relationship in their life and no other friends, family etc
<BLiSs101> and healthy boundaries is important too or one gets lost
* TechnoMage` wakes up and raises his hand with all the others...
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Ausage here... re Bernies question: I think sex is the driving force for both romance and BDSM... Romance is a tool to obtain and enhance sex... BDSM to the spice (pepper...) for hot sex...
<shimmer```> grrrrrr
<|Karen> I'm willing to fill 'companionship' and 'friendship' with a diversity of people
<shimmer```> what did i miss
<|Karen> but not romance, sex, and D/s
<SirLancelot`> good for you Karen...I hope you find the person
<shimmer```> incoming
* |Karen smiles 'although the lighter edges of D/s sometimes get brushed at by a few Dom friends now and then'
<BernieRoehl> A different question... hands up those who have all those things in one person, right now?
* shimmer``` raises her hand half-way :)
* |Karen already put her hand up, so to speak
* SirLancelot` does the same as shimmer
<|Karen> didn't you ask this same question earlier?
<shimmer```> he qualified it with "right now"
<BernieRoehl> No, the first time it was "have you found it?" This one is "do you have it currently?"
<|Karen> oh....right. currently.
* |Karen puts her hand down right into her lap
<LrdThomas> we do
<whisper`song> greetings A/all
<shimmer```> now now, |Karen, no playing with yourself on channel ;)
<BernieRoehl> *sigh*
<BernieRoehl> Net split
<|Karen> bye bye raptor
<concubinary> i think i have found it but it is early days. i do know it's the closest i've come
<BLiSs101> has it all except for the d/s, which is kink turning into d/s
<shimmer``> me too, concubinary *S*
* concubinary grins
<shimmer``> tell Him "the Leafs couldn't have done it on their own" *grin*
<concubinary> i do know that regardless i need more than one relationship - need friends, family, work
<concubinary> okay, will do shimmer
* concubinary Cdns fan!
<shimmer``> exactly so, concubinary
<shimmer``> woohooooo!!!!!!
<BLiSs101> everyone does concubine
* shimmer`` laughs ... He must be cursing
<BernieRoehl> So for those who haven't currently found it... are you finding sex and/or romance and/or D/s from different people?
<shimmer``> no Bliss ... some think they don't.
<concubinary> well Bliss, i did try to be a house slave with noone but a Master so i *know* it just isn't possible to do that in a healthy way for me
<shimmer``> Some are quite happy to have their Master and no one else.
<BLiSs101> i know they think they dont, but they do shimmer
<concubinary> all in one Bernie :O)
<BLiSs101> butthat doesnt make it healthy
<shimmer``> that's your opinion on their lives, Bliss :) they wouldn't agree.
<shimmer``> healthy?? that's a whole nother can o sardines.
<BLiSs101> its not just my opinion shimmer, its understood in mental health circles
<shimmer``> mental health circles are pretty much vanilla
* shimmer`` shrugs
<bottoms_up{RD}> whoosh
* `zee{LQ} smiles at A/ll as her screen gives her a headrush!!
* concubinary nudges LrdThomas in a respectful way
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> We missed some while fighting with peer... What is understood?
<BernieRoehl> Glad to see everyone back after the net split :-)
<shimmer``> that being happy with only a relationship with one's Master is enough for some
<shimmer``> is supposedly unhealthy
<BLiSs101> you would be surprised what nice people i have met in mental health circles shimmer who are kink positive
<shimmer``> i would indeed be surprised, Bliss... considering i worked in mental health - people themselves may be kinky but the pervailing winds direct according to vanilla rule
* `zee{LQ} waits for a catch up
* LrdThomas waits for the topic to resume.
<shimmer``> it's only unhealthy in western minds.
* bottoms_up{RD} has too many dimensions and needs for it to be filled with one monogamous relationship *shrug*
<BLiSs101> i worked with them too shimmer, on my personal life, as a client, and i have had some very positive experiences with them
<BLiSs101> i guess you just worjked with the wrong people
<shimmer``> i'm happy for you, Bliss
<BernieRoehl> We are drifting a bit off-topic...
<concubinary> You mean fetish as unhealhty or just having one person in your life/one relationship?
<shimmer``> i guess you don't understand what i'm saying. that's ok, Bliss
<`zee{LQ}> so monogamy is unhealthy? or to wrap all your wants and needs to One is unhealthy?
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> LK and I find that for happiness we need to expand our relationship to include others at an intimate level... I doubt we will ever find long term happiness with just each other...
<shimmer``> the later, zee
<BernieRoehl> Howeve,r the question of whether "romance" implies "monogamy" is interesting.
<BLiSs101> wraps ones needs in one person
<BLiSs101> now monogamy...thats a western !
<BLiSs101> thats western
<BernieRoehl> Does romance imply having a "one and only", a "soul mate"?
<concubinary> i lived in Italy with a MAster and had NOONE else to talk to, call, no internet - NOTHING and it was not at all okay. One person is not enough especially if they work all day. It is mind killing. In most cultures people have some community
* bottoms_up{RD} listens to Bernie *Grin*
<shimmer``> to me it does, Bernie Sir ... but not to others *S*
<abigaille> I don't think so Bernie...I think romance is unique to each relationship
<SirLancelot`> imply maybe...define...NO
<concubinary> monogamy for men is western Bliss but for women it's more far reaching thanthat
<shimmer``> agreed, concubinary. But some are content with only the one in their lives.
<BLiSs101> most? isnt there community in all cultures?
<BLiSs101> not necessarily bernie
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Why should romance imply monogamy? Don't we have romantic moments with close friends... even vanilla ones...
<BLiSs101> can u expand on that concubine?
* BernieRoehl feels that dividing line between close friends and romantic partners is a blurry one
<concubinary> i mean that most women don't live in absolute seclusion - it's rare that they be denied access to other women
<DarkAngel^> hello A/all
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> We are with you concubinary... LK and I almost destroyed our relationship when we were living, working, playing all in the same space 24 hrs a day
<BLiSs101> agreed concubine ! :))
<concubinary> :O)
<BernieRoehl> Well, by my watch there's just five minutes left in the discussion. Anyone have any closing thoughts?
<bottoms_up{RD}> is it hard for the Top to 'hurt' the one that they feel romantic about?
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> For me, when someone is denied access to others... friends, family, acquaintances... it is the first sign.. first step to abuse.
<BernieRoehl> That's something I've wrestled with from time to time in the past, bottoms. Might make for an interesting topic.
<BLiSs101> i think finding a life mate in d/s is rare but miraculous when it happens, and before it does happen any combination is a viable and appropriate alternative
<DarkAngel^> I agree Ausage-Lady_Kate
<`zee{LQ}> hurt as in painful pleasure bottoms_up{RD} or hurt as in emotionally?
<DarkAngel^> let them be free ,,, their bondage should be deeper
<bottoms_up{RD}> hurt as in bdsm zee .. for pleasure ;)
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Not at all bottoms_up... For both LK and I it is pure joy... To step into their head and feel the agony...
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles
<BernieRoehl> Okay, I'm going to close the log. By all means, continue chatting...
<Jaz^> thats very true bliss
<shimmer``> thank You Bernie Sir :)
<BernieRoehl> My pleasure, shimmer
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> It helps to be a switch... to have a deep understanding of the pleasures of pain... to have experience the ecstacy of agony... [shimmer`` SOUND]
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone for participating!
<LrdThomas> good job as always Bernie :)
* DarkAngel^ isnt sure there is a formula for the perfect relationship ,, each one has its own special flavour
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, LT
* abigaille waves goodnight
<`zee{LQ}> not at all!! Master greats greater pleasure with our love.. and His expectations are more from His love for me
<shimmer``> i could never be Domme, Ausage :) or even Top
<shimmer``> it just isn't who i am.
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> LK just said: "Any deep relationship, lasting relationship, is a journey with an unknown and ever changing destination"
<bottoms_up{RD}> well if i am not being published.. i guess there is no point chattering away *smart ass grin*
<Ausage-Lady_Kate> Thank you Bernie
<bottoms_up{RD}> thanks Bernie *huggles*
<`zee{LQ}> thank You BernieRoehl Sir
* BernieRoehl smiles
<SirLancelot`> great topic Bernie