February 27 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<|Karen> Now....the topic. :) Consent is one of the three keywords that we generally abide by in BDSM...Safe, Sane, Consensual
<|Karen> what does the idea of Consent mean to you?
* SirLion^w grins
<SirLion^w> Big ropes
* SirLion^w nods
<`zee{LQ}> if i may...consent, to me, is in two categories.. consent when you are collared becomes different than consent to individuals outside of a relationship
<SirLion^w> And the knowledge that all that is to occur has been negotiated
<`abi> Welcome to BDSM-KW. A discussion is in progress. Our topic tonight is "Consent". Please feel free to join in, but kindly refrain from Walton-style hi-byes until the discussion ends at 10 pm. Raptor is the recommended server to avoid lag. Be advised that our discussions are logged for posting to the ebhc website. If you wish to remain anonymous, please change your nick before joining the discussion.
<|Karen> for the Dom/mes....how do you know when or if that consent changes in the course of a scene? esp. if your sub isn't particularily good at using his/her safeword?
<SirLion^w> Close monitoring hre, eyes, heart and breath rate
* SirLion^w nods
<Wbkiri> I agree there Sirlion
<Wbkiri> and knowing your sub ...
<SirLion^w> The changes are obvious if you are sover and diligent
<LrdThomas> an unambiguous sober, fully informed statement to physical interaction by two mature adults.
<|Karen> that's interesting `zee....how do the two kinds of consent differ for you?
<SirLion^w> sober
<Wbkiri> and if needed cutying things short to be safe
* SirLion^w nods
<`zee{LQ}> as i am collared..i have given my consent to my Master..for all things.. He freely approaches me if it is something new..
<SirLion^w> No shame in a time out to check
<`zee{LQ}> when you are not collared..many things individually need to be given or asked consent of
<SirLion^w> Then you deal with a level of trust `zee{LQ}
<|Karen> how do people feel about consensual non-consensuality?
<`zee{LQ}> yes SirLion^w Sir. for i would not be collared to Master if the uptmost trust was not already there
<|Karen> rape play, as an example?
<SirLion^w> Hmm, interesting conundrum, consent to rape
* LrdThomas likes rape play. <g>
* SirLion^w smiles
<`zee{LQ}> it is fine.. given the trust already there
<Wbkiri> it is that play
* `zee{LQ} smiles up to LrdThomas holding her #4 ticket still
<SirLion^w> My rules for my poor slave cover much that way, No damage, and brutal honesty
* SirLion^w draws the curning one closer
<SirLion^w> burning
<SirLion^w> So forcing can be consensual
<|Karen> has anyone run into a situation where the submissive begins to feel, during scene....that s/he isn't comfortable with the way things are going.....would like to stop things ....but doesn't?
<`zee{LQ}> in my journeys Karen that has happened to me
<Wbkiri> that describes my littleone... she relies on me to do that
<|Karen> did you feel like some part of you was withdrawing consent, `zee?
<sweetslave{AF}> yes...but it became evident that my words would not be heeded and in the end i felt it better to say nothing in order for it to end quicker
<SirLion^w> Hmm, so yoyur Mastrer sensed it then sweetslave{AF}?
<LrdThomas> for casual play, that's why safewords are there, for relationships where no safewords are allowed, during a scene is no time to withdraw consent.
<SirLion^w> Agreed LrdThomas
<whispurr{SL}> a slave or submissive doesnt always like what is happening and the beauty of that is that she honours her Master by giving that to Him
<SirLion^w> Well said hot one
* SirLion^w smiles
<|Karen> I tend to agree with that, LT....but it is difficult to control the emotions that change within us during the course of a scene
<`zee{LQ}> as soon as i felt that i was not comfortable with what was happening..one part of me felt like i had failed and i didn't know what to do now that i wasnt enjoying it anymore
<SirLion^w> Therein lies the sacrifice, mind you, ghow much to sacrifice for one you are casual with, it would matter more for a Master
<sweetslave{AF}> at that time, which was years ago...there was a turning point where it was no longer consensual and became very ugly...my Master at the time was not interested in communication with his slave in order to persue his needs at the time
<LrdThomas> nothing wrong with difficulty in controlling emotions Karen, but i'm not sure what that has to do with consent. Some scenes are more difficult than others, and the submissive should have been informed of that in advance.
<SirLion^w> I'd hate to think my doings were wrong...the point is her pleasure too
<whispurr{SL}> as a submissive i feel it so important to realize why it is we are here..to serve Another for His or Her pleasure first and foremost without a deal..if giving that way, the submissive does get back tenfold...
<Wbkiri> except LT some/many are not
<Life_Quester> consent...is...a form of communication. The Master MUST...and the Dom "should"....be aware of the level of that communication...at all times....scene or not.
<whispurr{SL}> a good Master also wishes His slave to enjoy what she is giving
<|Karen> certainly good communication is a vital part of Consent....
<LrdThomas> then the pseudo-Dom should be reprimanded Wbkiri.
* SirLion^w nods
<Wbkiri> I agree ..
<|Karen> ....but what happens when the submissive feels s/he can't communicate?
<Wbkiri> then it is matter re trust
<Wbkiri> and they need to work on that issue
<SirLion^w> Those tend to be players who are in it for the power trip and noit sharing an experience so much as taking it
<SkyDom> hi, all
<SkyDom> Karen!.....how are ya?
<Life_Quester> |Karen....if the Dom cannot read the submissive...her eyes...her "sounds"...then there is something wrong with this picture.
<|Karen> SkyDom, this is the discussion hour.
* whispurr{SL} nods to Life_Quester
<SkyDom> ooooooops
<`zee{LQ}> communication is not just words... if the T/two are connected as such.. then many signs are not being seen
<Wbkiri> very true zee
<|Karen> For those who tend to play more casually....how do you handle Consent? do you ask for a clear yes/no at every stage?
<`zee{LQ}> i have always had difficulty with having the words there to use.. i am overcome
<SirLion^w> I make my slave beg
<SirLion^w> This shows me she understands
<SirLion^w> And it frees me
* SirLion^w smiles
<`slutkat`> Karen, i would think that would all fall under negotiation prior to playing
<|Karen> ahhhhh....so there is a practical side to begging :)
<SirLion^w> No `slutkat`, for life is fluid, I change from moment to moment
<`slutkat`> no?
<`slutkat`> she's saying for casual play...
<whispurr{SL}> not sure that a Master should ask ..it kind of implies He is the one asking for permission
<`slutkat`> if you have clearly defined areas where you can NOT go.. i would think that is what we are talking about now...
<SirLion^w> Prior negotiations implies you know whats going to happen next
<`slutkat`> not necessarily SirLion^w
<`slutkat`> in fact.. not at all.. ;-)
* |Karen nods to `zee 'I have difficulty with words there too....and I like that feeling'
<`slutkat`> you just simply need to outline the parameters...
<SirLion^w> Ah, yes, so a kind of blank cheque of trust, I agree with that
<`zee{LQ}> imho negotiations are only good for specific givens in a casual scene.. so many times the Dom wishes to go with the flow and new opportunities may arise..to negotiate during a scene would have to be handled delicately to not offset the mood
<|Karen> does clear negotiation take any of the fun out of it?
* `slutkat` doesnt think so
* `slutkat` shrugs
<Sherwood^> Use a sign, verbal, finger gesture, hold a whip between the teeth, all sorts of things are possible, but consent is always important
<^llara> as someone who played casually long term with a Dom...with no commitment from either side...all the other variences of consent build like they do in any other place....safewords were always in place though
* LrdThomas does not ask for consent (at various stages), she either consents to play and trusts my judgement or i don't play. I ask for her consent once, at the beginning.
<SirLion^w> I monitor, when she is out of her depth, I know
<^llara> yes but prior to consent..much discussion has occured...
<LrdThomas> Karen, yes, negotiating takes all the fun out of it.
<SirLion^w> Actually, the discussion has been over for almost 2 years
<^llara> it within the parameters of those discussion....that consent is given
<|Karen> is there anyone here who doesn't play with safewords?
<LrdThomas> yes
<sweetslave{AF}> yes
<SirLion^w> So we are running on given parameters and a changing level of trust
<|Karen> how do you determine consent without safewords?
* `slutkat` hasnt used them but they're there to be used... if need be
<SirLion^w> Here
<whispurr{SL}> Master is my safeword
<SirLion^w> She is my limit
<SirLion^w> As I am hers
<LrdThomas> Karen, it's called a collar.
<^llara> for me yes SirLion^w...i guess that is a good..general way to put it
<|Karen> can you explain that, LT?
<`zee{LQ}> i do'nt have safeword with Master nor need it ..but i would use a word with others that i scene with easily..though not the traditional ones
* SirLion^w smiles
<^llara> and as the trust changes..so does the parameters..and the consent...isn't much different really...just would fall under casual play.....
<^llara> casual to me though means..there is no commit on my part even though the casual may be long term
<SirLion^w> Nothing casual here ^llara, we grow all the time
<^llara> just using the terms in the context of this discussion SirLion^w..that is awhole diff discussion
<LrdThomas> when the offer of my collar is accepted she has explicitly agreed to abide by my wishes. If she doesn't trust my ability to keep her safe, I would not have offered the collar.
<SirLion^w> To collar should mean to care, a lover doesn't damage, its really enough for me
* SirLion^w nods
<SirLion^w> Zackly Sir
<SirLion^w> Understood ^llara
* SirLion^w nods
* sweetslave{AF} agrees completely with LrdThomas
<`zee{LQ}> when i took Master's collar the trust was there that all limits are now gone and in Masters hands
<|Karen> all limits?
* `zee{LQ} smiles
<`slutkat`> of course
<`zee{LQ}> yes...all ....as i trust Him to do what is best for me all the time.. or i would not have given my soul to Him
<SirLion^w> I should thing it would be so, and rightly so
* SirLion^w grins
* Boo_Bitch learned from past mistakes to negotiate a scene with a casual player... private play for sure *shrug*
<concubinary> i wouldn't wear a collar from someone who was so different than me as to want my 'hard limits' to be broken. For example i wouldn't be with a man who played with children. If i wear a collar it's because i trust.
* `zee{LQ} nods to concubinary
<|Karen> so....and please treat this gently....I'm in ask a million questions mode....what if he decided that death was the best thing for you?
<SirLion^w> Yes, and there are things I don't do, so they are my slaves limits as well
<SirLion^w> Wuf
* `slutkat` thinks a Master would always have his sub's best interests at heart... as she would his...
<`zee{LQ}> Master knows my moral limits..though if He chose to go past them he knows He would risk damaging my soul and psyche.. that which He cherishes as His property
<LrdThomas> then he would end up playing wifey, to bubba in cell block D.
<whispurr{SL}> guess that Master would have been a bad choice..grin
* `slutkat` chuckles
* SirLion^w laughs
<Life_Quester> |Karen.....you obviously do not know Me...I value My possession too much to break it in any form.
<SirLion^w> Yer my bitch
* SirLion^w laughs
<SirLion^w> No damage, kinda covers the snuff part
* SirLion^w nods
<|Karen> ahhhh....Masters making bad choices. now there's a topic.
<SirLion^w> Nope
<LrdThomas> snuff is fun.... once. <wink>
<`zee{LQ}> Karen.. if that was His request... Master knows that i would... all limits gone..but that didn't happen all in one fell swoop..they went as the trust and soul deepened
<SirLion^w> Ruels say it can't be done
<SirLion^w> rules
* SirLion^w smiles
<concubinary> Karen i *was* with a dominant once who belived he had the right to take my life or tell me to commit suicide. That was too extreme for me. i am not with him anymore. It was an error for me to be there in the first place
<|Karen> it was a 'what if' question, LQ....it is not a personal reflection. just an intellectual wandering
<whispurr{SL}> can be a very dangerous lifestyle for sure
<SirLion^w> Hmm well, we dance closer to the edge insome ways
<whispurr{SL}> tis so important to be healthy and love ones self
* SirLion^w nods
* Life_Quester nods to |Karen
<SirLion^w> I suspect there are those who love knowing they have that option
<SirLion^w> I love knowing whisp will give me as much as she can
<SirLion^w> And I often ask for more than she can bear
<SirLion^w> Like seeing her try anyway
* LrdThomas wonders about the sanity of some people, thinking about a beautiful lifestyle in terms of ones ability to commit murder or order suicide. I'm a Dom! In a personal relationship! My power is not greater than societies laws. And any idiot who thinks he is above the law, is an ass.
<whispurr{SL}> Master holds my life in His hands..He is the controller..i chose Him for He is compassionate and loving..He makes me better..nurtures and embraces my submission..aye i would give Him my life any ole day...
<|Karen> is that a common philosophy for Doms? to ask for more then she can bear just to see her try?
<SirLion^w> Not mention religious overtones, there's already lots of God's out there now
* SirLion^w smiles
* `slutkat` thought that was growth
* whispurr{SL} looks softly to LrdThomas and trembles from His beautiful words
<Life_Quester> Knowing that One "can" is extremely important....but not as important as the responsibility in knowing what is "right"....for the sub...and the relationship.
<SirLion^w> Forme it is |Karen
<LrdThomas> i often give subs the shakes wispoer... but for a multitude of reasons. lol
<`slutkat`> lol
<SirLion^w> hehehehe
<`zee{LQ}> to ask for more is growth as long as there is an objective to the asking.. not merely toying ..imho
<SirLion^w> Tsk, toying is most of the fun
<Boo_Bitch> how far do you go though, continuously pushing her limits?
<SirLion^w> But I stress she hasn't `failed' me
<|Karen> I wonder 'though....if constantly asking for more then one can bear....doesn't it set one up to feel like a failure?
<SirLion^w> As far as she can take
<`slutkat`> always more areas to delve into.. more to learn...
<`zee{LQ}> toying with her soul and her psychological state is only fun to a point than it can be damaging
<SirLion^w> Not if you make sure you are true in expressing wonder at the attempt, and again at the degree of accomplishment
<SirLion^w> I'm always drop jaw amazed at her that way
* SirLion^w smiles
<LrdThomas> therein is the artistry of mastery... combining that blend of push/exploration while balancing emotional security.
<|Karen> interesting...
* `zee{LQ} nods in agreement with LrdThomas Sir
<SirLion^w> It's a balancing act too, for some sub/slaves require severe
<Boo_Bitch> giving one time consent works for some collars, etc.. but for casual play.. to me its dangerous without negotiations or prev discussions on limits
<SirLion^w> So the Master must act as break as well as pusher
<Boo_Bitch> hard to say RED after he cuts you when you are blindfolded
<concubinary> i've been pushed and learnt that i in fact *could* do things. Needles are a good example of that
<|Karen> how so, Boo_Bitch?
<Boo_Bitch> you say RED but you are already cut ... not a good thing
<Mistress_Sasha> hello everyone
<SirLion^w> Is casual realy in the same playing field as commtied though?
<whispurr{SL}> i think again the whole testimonial here is that the submissive tries for the Dominant....tis amazing what Master has shown me what i can do...He makes me freer..kind of funny realizing i had to be slave to be truly free...
<LrdThomas> BB, thats why once discusses post scene too.
<SirLion^w> commited
<LrdThomas> once=one
<Boo_Bitch> nope SirLion but consent is the topic and thats for all relationships
<SirLion^w> Ah, course Boo_Bitch
* SirLion^w nods
* SirLion^w smiles
* SirLion^w tries to focus
<Boo_Bitch> but i understood earlier some people say negotiation takes out the fun
* ^llara hands him nipple clamps...here try these works wonders
* SirLion^w laughs
<^llara> smiles
<SirLion^w> Er..thanks ^llara?
<^llara> sowwy..couldn't resist
<^llara> roflllll
<Boo_Bitch> i want it know i DONT want to be cut.. not wait to call red after the fact ;)
<|Karen> I'm interested in going back to the idea of Masters making mistakes. has anyone run into that situation, felt like their consent was threatened, and yet still able to talk it out afterwards? because the broader sense of trust was there?
<Boo_Bitch> for a casual play with a Dom, he made a mistake... and i discussed no bloodplay etc before hand
<SirLion^w> Nope, Masters don't make mistakes...typing notsithstanding...grinnn
<LrdThomas> rephrase please Karen, not sure what you are asking.
<|Karen> having talked it out afterwards, B_B, would you play with him again?
<Life_Quester> |Karen...Masters are not gods....mistakes can happen...and not to discuss then afterwards,....is a weakness...not a strength...as BOTH need to grow as a function of what happened.
<Boo_Bitch> yes i would.. but RD wont let me .. he doesnt trust him after that *shrug*
<concubinary> i've had dominants make mistakes and acknowledge it. That is responsible and fostered trust.
<`zee{LQ}> Dom's are not fallible... to think that the trust was violated when a mistake could have been made is wrong
<SirLion^w> Tsk, my rules book needs up dating...sighh..
<`zee{LQ}> that is infallible...lol
* `slutkat` thot the Dom rule book was updated on a regular minute by minute basis ;-)
<SirLion^w> I usually admit to my part of any problems though. And frankly, my lady is good, I heed her counsel and glad of it
<|Karen> I've been in the position of feeling like my Dom did something important without my consent.....yet, because I trusted him overall....I was willing to talk it out with him, and regain the trust....
<whispurr{SL}> when i met Master...He told me the things that He would not go for...as i did with Him..He took that information in and chooses to do with it what He wishes..majoy things are discussed and He asks my feelings on..but He never asks if He may do something to me..i am slave..im the one that has to ask..smile
<whispurr{SL}> major
<`zee{LQ}> Karen..was the something important something you would not have liked and didn't?
<|Karen> does that make it more understandable, LT?
<whispurr{SL}> may i ask you a question dear Karen with warm gentleness?
<LrdThomas> clear as mud!
* Mistress_Sasha smiles
* `slutkat` grins
<Boo_Bitch> lol LrdThomas ;)
<|Karen> we didn't talk about it beforehand, `zee
<|Karen> sure whispurr
<whispurr{SL}> why do You choose this lifestyle..what brought You to it..smile..that in itself is a wonderful topic..soft smile
<Boo_Bitch> LrdThomas.. for casual play with others.. you allow safe words?
<|Karen> Fun brought me to it, fun keeps me here. and it is a great topic. :) but maybe for another evening?
<`slutkat`> let Bernie know, Karen ;-)
<whispurr{SL}> what do You feel being submissive means Karen?
<LrdThomas> should I BB? Who has control then? If she doesn't know me well enough to know i'm responsible, then i don't want to play with her. What she can do, is tell me what scares the hell out of her, and that she couldn't go to.
<|Karen> this evening isn't about me, whispurr.
<`zee{LQ}> i think it is hard to cover all the areas that may come up in a scene before hand Karen... that is where the trust comes in
* Mistress_Sasha agrees with zee
<`slutkat`> *bingo*
<Boo_Bitch> but LrdThomas... our pain tolerance changes from day to day, during our cycle ect... what excites her one day may be a Red another day.. and if you dont know her and her signs of distress during play...how would you know?
* `zee{LQ} agrees with LrdThomas
* ^llara and that level of trust..safe feelings is often a instinctual thing..not easily explained
* |Karen nods 'true, `zee....that's why I choose to talk it out afterwards instead of letting it end the relationship'
<whispurr{SL}> understood Karen..i think its all so variable in this lifestyle..some need safewords..some are here for 24/7 and some for just in the bedroom...so many variables..and God Bless us all..cause we are all here cause its fun...
<SirLion^w> So it's a fluid changing thing
<^llara> even in casual play yes it can be a fluid changing thing
<`slutkat`> Boo_Bitch... an experienced Dom can *read* a sub's body fairly well... and know what is happening to her... imho
* `zee{LQ} agrees with `slutkat`
* SirLion^w moves reading bodies
<`slutkat`> or then again.. maybe i've just been lucky... <s>
<|Karen> ahhh....but what about _in_experienced Doms? they have to get that experience somewhere
<SirLion^w> Love it
* Boo_Bitch doesnt agree.. every sub/bottom shows distress in different ways
<LrdThomas> BB, i guess we call that dom skill. and if i misread it, well, then she can call me all the names she wants afterwards, wven report me to the dom police.... but what she can't do, is know it was done from malfeaance.
<`slutkat`> that would be a bit diff, Karen... to be sure.. *shrug*
<LrdThomas> malfeasance
* Mistress_Sasha still has alot t learn about being a dom
<SirLion^w> Ill intent
* SirLion^w nods
* `slutkat` perks up ..*DOM* and *police* all in one person?????? WOOHOOOO
* `slutkat` swoons
<Boo_Bitch> so LrdThomas... she gives consent..you misread her signs and she has to suffer through it? .. interesting
<SirLion^w> hehehehe, happy visiting day eh?
* whispurr{SL} looks to Mistress Sasha and Your admitting to that shows that You are a wonderful Mistress Ma'am
<SirLion^w> Frisked right left and center
<Mistress_Sasha> ?me laughs @slutkat
<^llara> but i think no repsonsible caring considerate Dom would do that Boo_Bitch
<Mistress_Sasha> thankyou whispurr but i am fairly new to this all
<^llara> hasn't been my experience anyways
<|Karen> so.....in the interest of kinda wrapping things up a bit....have we learned anything tonight?
* `slutkat` tries to drag her mind back to the discussion..
* |Karen likes wrapping things up :)
<Boo_Bitch> llara.. a responsible and caring Dom who hasnt played with you before.. CAN misread your signs
<SirLion^w> I can see love or distress in a strangers eyes as easily as mine, simply by leaning and bothering to look
<`slutkat`> yup... there's DOM POLICE out there...
<^llara> oh my goodness of course they can
<LrdThomas> yeah. interesting. and if she doesn't want to trust to that level, don't play!!! But quite frankly, playing for the sake of physical play is boring. i want her trust or its no fun for me.
<^llara> but they wouldn't carelessly continue
<^llara> that was my point
<SirLion^w> Carelessly anything
* SirLion^w smiles
<Boo_Bitch> trust needs to be built LrdThomas.. through each play session, etc. just talking doesnt do it ;)
<^llara> an experienced couple that plays together all the time....signs can be misread
<Boo_Bitch> llara.. if she isnt allowed to safeword and he misreads her.. he does continue though
<^llara> hence the trust..and ill intent LT mentioned
<|Karen> how do you reconcile the level of trust you desire, with casual play, LT?
<LrdThomas> BooBitch, let me tell you a little Dom secret.... "there is no harm or loss of dominance in leaving a sub wanting more".
<SirLancelot`> experience has to be gained slowly...
<SirLion^w> Nope, the LrdThomas gent has it right, why do it if you aren't dealing with ppl who know
<whispurr{SL}> trust is the first and most important gift we give to each other..and ah yes the Dominant needs to trust the submissive too
<`zee{LQ}> i feel that a Dom/Master can observe so much about a sub/slave just by talking or being with them in a social setting before play..their personality and such
<SirLion^w> This is far more than simple sex
<Mistress_Sasha> ?smiles at LrdThomas
<^llara> well i for one don't meet and scene...i have given consent and pulled it away before the scene
<TimeMaster> D/s is not an exact science, to try and get consent for every move you have to make, is like trying to drive a car and the person next to you has to have their hand in the wheel...there comes a time to trust, and also to comunicate any fears the sub might have about things in general
<^llara> the Dom handled it wonderfully
* whispurr{SL} looks to her Master about that leaving the submissive in la la land thing and nods softly to LordThomas
<^llara> he earned trust that way...i had already given consent and withdrew it
<^llara> still gotta know who you are playing with....even casually
* |Karen smiles 'Obviously this is a topic that many find interesting....please feel free to keep talking, but the log ends now'