February 20, 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "How to Survive the Loss of a BDSM Relationship". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<motoki> one way to survive is to keep breathing
<lucy> put one foot in front of the other
<krista-F> sleep.....lots of sleep
<lucy> and chocolate
<krista-F> booze??
<opalslv> spend time with friends
<motoki> always chocolate
<nightmans> drink to rember you should not drink to forget
* motoki notices that chocolate seems to come up in most discussions
<krista-F> i don't drink at all nightmans.....hence the question mark
* lucy notices the discussions are usually populated heavily by women
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe notices it is always lucy that mentions chocolate
<lucy> :P
<krista-F> lol
<Titan> outnumbered
<Titan> cailin do inventory please chuckles
<krista-F> therapy?
<motoki> yes, for the other
<cailinTitan> hehe
<motoki> they'd need it after me
<lucy> massage therapy
<jewel`{F}> lol motoki
* Namons would like to point out that he's male ;)
* lucy giggles
<QTIP> sort of depends on how the relationship ended, doesn't it?
<nightmans> it can
<nightmans> to be dumped to dump or death
<Titan> 3 males?
<cailinTitan> think so my Master
* QTIP =m
* jewel`{F} sees 4
<jewel`{F}> oops 5
<bondagebabe> all the men are afraid to talk about their feelings....lol
<Titan> nay
<cailinTitan> lol sorry
<nightmans> wow i never know it was over run with woman not that's a bad thing
<QTIP> i'm thawing out. lake effect snow removal
<Titan> haha
<Titan> snow here
<Titan> passs cailin shovel
<cailinTitan> here to nut i am sure not as much as You guys
* Namons passes around some chocolate...
<nightmans> thank you Namons
<cailinTitan> takes shovel and tosses to the side good thing to be snowed in
<QTIP> how about some single malt?
* `abi{A} raises her hand
<sexyy2004> wouldn't the part that each person, both D/s , would want to learn is the lessons learned ?
<QTIP> good point
<QTIP> my worse f**k ups are my best lessons. those are the ones that stick
<jewel`{F}> i think how one would survive the loss of the relationship would not only depend on how the relationship ended, but on the level of the bdsm
<motoki> it does help if the parting is amicable
<sexyy2004> and how to make it better next time ?
<jewel`{F}> the sudden loss of a total power exchange could be harder to deal with than if say it was just bedroom bdsm
<pandora``> i don't thing there is much of a differance between the end of a bdsm relationship or a vanilla one really, the end of a relationship is hard, whichever it might be
<sexyy2004> i notice that most in this community seem to be such good friends to each other.... a support network of friends
<jewel`{F}> agreed pandora``
<motoki> i see your point jewel
<Titan> true pandora
<QTIP> what's amazed me in local bdsm politics, is how the Dom males got dissed after a few break ups
<QTIP> some times things just don't work out
<spirited_sassy{CP}> agreed QTIP
<lucy> true, and there's usually plenty of 'blame' on both sides to go around
<Titan> yes
<cailinTitan> true
<bondagebabe> why does there have to be 'blame' at all? can't it just end because one or the other wants it to?
<pandora``> there are many relationships that end that way bondagebabe, it's just that you don't hear about them
<bondagebabe> it always amazes me how there has to be "sides"
<motoki> i agree - blame gets in the way of closure and moving on
<cailinTitan> it can but i am sure that is far between
<lucy> sure it can...that doesn't mean there isn't hurt
<QTIP> most probably because fem subs tend to empathize with other sub fems after a break up
<lucy> and often time people do irrational things when they're feeling hurt...
<lucy> and alot depends on the circumstances
<cailinTitan> yes that is for sure
<Titan> being civil is the best policy however doesnt allways go that way
<bondagebabe> true...and sometimes it doesn't matter how civil you are/aren't
<cailinTitan> yes some ppl keep wanting more and you trying to be friends
<jewel`{F}> often times the couple themselves have put closure to things and ar friends before their friends have come to terms with it
<Titan> dramtic comes to mind
<nightmans> wi became frend's with most of my ex's
<QTIP> i'm always polite. in my opinion good manners reflect self-respect. i'm probably more cooly polite to those for whom i've got little regard
* lucy agrees
<QTIP> that's just me
<cailinTitan> that is good but some You just can't be friends with
<Titan> nods
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe agrees
<QTIP> i've attempted to be friends, or at least on friendly terms with most of my ex's
<cailinTitan> like someone said ppl to things they not normally do when they are hurting
<QTIP> some times it works. sometimes it doesn't
<Titan> yes
<bondagebabe> yes..but if it isn't there in some form, it wouldn't happen when they are hurting...that speaks more to their moral fibre than anything else, i would think
<sexyy2004> i think the maturity in the relationship comes to mind, when it breaks up... if there was good communication
<cailinTitan> yes if there wasn't trust and respest from the start then most likly end bad
<painslt_VBM> would it not depend on the maturity of the people invoved as well though? not just the relationship itself?
<painslt_VBM> ^involved
<sexyy2004> yes, painslt.. it would .. i agree
<painslt_VBM> :)
<QTIP> as far as it goes for me...my personal philosoply...i've almost always gone through a period of self-assessment...looking for some self-awareness or the mistakes i made...or the mistaken assumptions i made
<bondagebabe> or maybe the trust and respect deteriorates, and then there is bad feelings when it ends
* lucy is reminded of the saying "The common denominator in all your failed relationships is you"...that being the 'royal' you
<motoki> me too, QTIP
<QTIP> i believe that the 3 legs on which this type of role playing game is supported on are: truth/trust/love
<painslt_VBM> trust, respect, both MUST be there for a relationship, lifestyle, vanilla or other alternative
<sexyy2004> nodding head to lucy.... agreeing , Big time
<cailinTitan> takes two to mess things up
<bondagebabe> i agree wtih cailinTitan
<motoki> it make take two (which i don't necessarily agree with), but i can only control me
<`abi{A}> yes, but who gets the toys?
<bondagebabe> takes two to tango
<painslt_VBM> it sometimes takes more than 2 to straighten things out again though
<shadoe> not always cailin.. sometimes it really is one-sided...
<cailinTitan> i guess You are right depending on who the couple is
<bondagebabe> a wise woman once told me you can only control yourself...don't let anyone else have power over you unless you want them to
<Titan> I know the toys I have going into the relationship stay Mine laughs
<`abi{A}> what if they are fluid bonded Titan?
<sexyy2004> thinking
<Titan> well then dispose off
<painslt_VBM> sexyy2004, there are similarities
<QTIP> i've known a few relationships to end because one person decided to trade up. this type of ending is always painful for the one dumped, Dom or sub
<painslt_VBM> a breakup is hard, no matter what
<`abi{A}> so you're going to throw out a $300 whip because you don't want to give it to the person who it's bonded to?
<cailinTitan> and if one person keeps looking for someone new makes it hard on the other
<Titan> and whats really harder too is how long in time the relationship was
<QTIP> there goes truth and trust...out the window
<sexyy2004> abi ... what is fluid bonded ?? i don't know that term , please
* Kilted_One thinks that abigaille would be better off with a $5 tin of bondo remover <smiles>
<cailinTitan> yes very true Master
<bondagebabe> i don
<pandora``> i would think that if you are in a relationship with the thoughts of "trading up" it's not much of a relationship to start with
<bondagebabe> sorry, i don't agree Titan
<motoki> so how can one survive the loss of a bdsm relationship?
<`abi{A}> fluid bonded means that a toy has been in contact with someone's blood or other bodily fluid sexyy2004 ... and hence shouldn't be used on someone else
<bondagebabe> some relationships are intensely severe in a very short time
<sexyy2004> thank you, abi... for explaining that.....i didn't know that *smile *
<lucy> the same way one survives the loss of any important relationship, IMO
<painslt_VBM> one can survive with a lot of support from friends & family
<motoki> which is?
<painslt_VBM> a lot of introspection
<painslt_VBM> time for self
<Kilted_One> motoki how many of us have went through a serious break up and we are all still here?? I think that answers the question in itself...we all survive in our own ways
* `abi{A} smiles at KO
<bondagebabe> i agree lucy...get up, dust yourself off, learn from it, and move on
<lucy> for me it involves introspection, time and understanding
<motoki> but how ?
<cailinTitan> but the big thing is to learn from Your mistakes
<motoki> what are "our own ways"?
* motoki is pushing for the topic LOL
<lucy> ok...and lots of chocolate...there, i said it...i keep Godiva in business
<Kilted_One> whatever ways you use at the time they are all different
<kierana{DRFL}> lol
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe points out the chocolate & lucy thing once again....lol
* Kilted_One pushes the topic towards motoki
<painslt_VBM> for me, is learning from what went wrong, talking about it with those who would have known U/us, talking with Him, if possible
* motoki looks for chocolate in the topic
<`abi{A}> okay...what kinds of things do people put in place in anticipation of the likelihood that a relationship will end?
<lucy> offshore bank accounts
<`abi{A}> aside from stockpiling chocolate
<Kilted_One> new locks on the doors??
<`abi{A}> bondo?
<QTIP> i think the most important thing i did, after a break-up, was to take one of those personal-growth workshops. worked for me
<motoki> i distance myself emotionally
<`abi{A}> during the relationship motoki?
<painslt_VBM> keeping friends and family in the know, talking to them, having them near & dear
<cailinTitan> protecting Your heart can be good and bad thing
<lucy> seriously....i tend to cocoon...beat myself up a bit (since there's no one else to do it for me anymore)
<motoki> if it's obvious it's ending, yes
<motoki> if it's not obvious, no
<bondagebabe> i agree with painsit_VBM...friend are VERY important, especially those that can remain neutral
<painslt_VBM> *smiles at bondagebabe*
* lucy knows how hard it can be to be a neutral friend...but that's what friends do
<cailinTitan> i am like lucy
<cailinTitan> go within myself and hide
<MsMaple> Has anyone spoken about the time one needs before jumping back in? I know lucy mentioned it.
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe also knows...but thanks lucy for doing it!
<QTIP> it's important for a friend who's periferal is just to listen...then to ask questions to get clear with what's being said
<Titan> hide under my desk cailin?
<motoki> i've actually found it very very hard to talk to anyone about a troubled relationship because i don't like airing dirtly laundry like that
<`abi{A}> okay...but what about before the slide starts ... I'm thinking of the equivalent of pre-nuptual agreements ... if you're entering an intensely dependent relationship
<cailinTitan> hehe yes my Master
<motoki> dirty not dirtly
<Titan> chuckle
* lucy is alot like motoki in that way
<motoki> well, i think it's a good thing to discuss waby before hand how that will be handled should it come up
<painslt_VBM> abi, would that not depend on what would have been stated in teh contract, if one was made?
<bondagebabe> what if you don't recognize the slide, abi{A}? Sometimes it hits you suddenly what is wrong
<jewel`{F}> what if the loss isn't a break up?
<motoki> way not waby (geez)
<cailinTitan> going into things thinking it will end who does that?
<motoki> i did
<`abi{A}> most people over the age of 25 cailin
<motoki> my first collared relationship included a clause for "should things not turn out"
<cailinTitan> i am 33 and still don't think that way
<painslt_VBM> i have heard of contracts stating what would happen if the relationship were to end, or what was to be done by the sub if she wished release
<motoki> i think that's a smart thing to include
<jewel`{F}> for example in shadoe's case, if she were to get a call or knock on the door, to say that Himself has been killed
<QTIP> jewel`{F} if it's not from a break up, i suppose one's dealing with mourning more than just a relationship
<sexyy2004> question.... is a clause/ contract for only Master/slave... or also for D/s ?
<motoki> for anyone who wants it, sexy
<Titan> thats another topic not everyone uses contracts
<painslt_VBM> D/s as well sexyy2004
<shadoe> QTIP.. in a D/s relationship you have mourning.. and the loss of a bdsm relationship
<motoki> some M/s relationships do not use contracts
<jewel`{F}> how does the submissive deal with not only the loss of the relationship, the loss of their partner, but they have that loss of control as well
<shadoe> it's different
<Titan> I dont
<QTIP> agreed
<jewel`{F}> i know in my case, i'm lucky, i have friends i could turn to, both nilla and lifestyle that would support and comfort me, would help me get control of myself back
<shadoe> we are talking about the loss of a bdsm relationship right? circumstances may vary
<Titan> how can one go into a relationship knowing its going to end??
<jewel`{F}> not everyone has that, for what ever reason their friends and family may not know the dynamics
<painslt_VBM> Titan, all relationships end, at some point, whether through death or a breakup
<motoki> it isn't a matter of "going into it knowing it will end", it's a matter of going into it with eyes open
<`abi{A}> one doesn't have to know it's is going to end Titan...only that's it's always a possibility
<motoki> because, all relationships *do* end eventually
<QTIP> i would suppose that a D/s or M/s type relationship could be a tad more intense than just one for bedroom bdsm'ers
<Titan> yes common sense
<`abi{A}> and if it's going to be a very dependent relationship, then some planning needs to be done for that
<_dove> pre-nups have been around for years - and "forever" was always the plan at the onset
* motoki agrees
<cailinTitan> that is a given but to think it will end and how to handle it before hand
<painslt_VBM> yes, they would QTIP, but the loss through grief could still be as intense
<QTIP> understood
<Beswitched> Greetings A/all
<motoki> i actually feel more "sane" within a relationship that has considered the options beforehand than in a relationship that goes in with blind abandon that "everything will be ok"
<`abi{A}> if someone is involved in a relationship where they have no financial control, where their entire social circumstances are controlled by someone else...then there needs to be an awareness of what will happen should that end
<painslt_VBM> i know, i would much prefer a relationship where most possiblities had been considered
<Kilted_One> with the relatively short cycle time of BDSM relationships (count them in dog years) I would think that most of us get plenty of first hand experience at break ups???
<sexyy2004> i would like to think that most of those would have been discussed ahead of time.. the financial, the social.... again like a vanilla relationship
<QTIP> i've always considered a D/s relationship where there's an annual re-assessment and signing of a contract to be a good point to discuss many issues and options. i wonder how many vanilla relationships might be more healthy if they had the same
<`abi{A}> well, I believe there are flow charts around somewhere KO ;)
<painslt_VBM> hense the contract or pre nup sexyy2004
<Kilted_One> we ran out of paper abigaille!!!!
<shadoe> well actually sexyy... Himself handles the finances here.. and i wouldn't know where to begin to handle it if He weren't around
<sexyy2004> agreeing with Qtip on that one..... that is part of the communication, i think
<Titan> good communication very essential
<QTIP> there's a gay top locally who has his own ritual for signing a contract for his role with his bois in his house
<shadoe> and KO.. i'm still on the first bdsm/ds relationship
<shadoe> and QTIP.. no contract here.. we just keep going
<`abi{A}> yes, but he can pretend to be different people shadoe ;)
<motoki> lol
<_dove> lol
<jewel`{F}> we don't have a contract either
<painslt_VBM> Titan, communication is top 3 on my list of things i look for in a relationship, friend, D/s, M/s, anything really
<MsMaple> QTIP I've always assessed my relationships yearly, it's a good habit
<shadoe> lol.. well there is that!
<Kilted_One> ahhh shadoe we all that know you know that you are much different that the norm ,smiles
<QTIP> it's not a bad thing to do an annual re-assessment. people change
<_dove> With the end of a relationship painslt_VBM, communication has usually broken down in one way or another.
<kierana{DRFL}> well, communication is working here...Master wants dessert and milk...*slips away*
<Kilted_One> Im still on my first one too....and the second and the third...you dont really leave them too far behind...well some of us dont anyway
<painslt_VBM> i know _dove, but i meant is one of the things i look for in a starting relationship
<QTIP> if the relationship is truly intense, folks can get burned out. i'm reminded of the book (not the movie) 9 1/2 Weeks
<MsMaple> It also bites complacency in the ass QTIP
<_dove> i understand painslt_VBM - my personal experience has been not to count on good communication at the end.
<painslt_VBM> mine too dove, mine too
<painslt_VBM> communication between Master & myself is extremelly good right now, & i hope it stays that way
<lucy> does anyone do a 'debriefing' at the end of a relationship? would seem fitting if it begins with negotiation and the signing of a contract
<Kilted_One> sounds like some of the ends that I have been in dove.....where there is little communication and a lot of anger and frustrations
<painslt_VBM> good question
<QTIP> i have, lucy
<MsMaple> Kilted_One I've heard it said that if you can remember what the first times felt like then you'll never forget them
<painslt_VBM> but, how can you debrief if you aren't communicating?
<lucy> or maybe a 'decollaring' would be a better term for it?
<bondagebabe> exactly....if there isn't any communication, you end up adrift...
<QTIP> that takes time...some emotional distance
<painslt_VBM> emotional idstance can be hard to achieve
<Kilted_One> nods to MsMaple...I dont think it is as much forgetting them it is trying to emulate them over and over again
<QTIP> oh...and getting away from playing a blame/shame game
<sexyy2004> communicating... is that why the relationship ends in the first place ?
<painslt_VBM> you are just too close to it to do anything about it right then
<Beswitched> It hurts the worst if you are in love.... as in married...and the partner decides to leave
<`abi{A}> it's only one reason sexyy2004 ... you can be communicating very well and still have a relationship end
<painslt_VBM> sexyy2004, lostt of communication can certainly aid in the demise of a relationship
<QTIP> i've found it facile to use the statement, "when you did X, i felt Y." that speaks more to my reaction then blame
<lucy> because communication is only step 1...if it's not followed through with actions what's the point of communicating?
<sexyy2004> i mean, i would think the relationship evolves... and that communication was there i the start ... so what happened to it ?
<painslt_VBM> teh couple got too complacent, took each other for granted?
<sexyy2004> exactly Qtip.... You are a wise person
<painslt_VBM> assumed things would remain the same or evolve to greater heights?
<_dove> There are an infinite number of reasons that can cause a relationship to end.
<Beswitched> exactly painslut
<painslt_VBM> :)
<Beswitched> i have lived it
<painslt_VBM> assumptions can ruin a great many things
<QTIP> i had hard feelings with one live in because i made the mistake of giving her a loan to get her out from under credit card debt. had i to do it over again, i would have had her go to a credit counselling service first. my mistake. when she stopped paying off my loan, short of her debt to me. i had hard feelings. that was that.
<sexyy2004> do expectations change ?
<painslt_VBM> they do sexyy2004
<Kilted_One> do we grow and learn and want to experience new things every day??
<_dove> I would hope so KO
<painslt_VBM> so would i
* `abi{A} watches KO go into Mr. Rogers mode ...
<painslt_VBM> i want to grow & learn each & every day
<painslt_VBM> lol `abi{A}
<QTIP> perhaps learning is the meaning of life
<Kilted_One> and who was that very wise person abigaille?? dont know him
<Titan> thrives on growing and learning more
<painslt_VBM> when we stop learning, we might as well be dead, for we have lost something great
* `abi{A} chuckles...he was indeed a very wise person KO
<cailinTitan> agrees
<Kilted_One> was his first name Roy and he had a horse trigger??
<bondagebabe> sometimes it takes awhile to learn from an ended relationship...you have to distance yourself from the emotions to learn something
<cailinTitan> very true
<Titan> yes
<^julie^> listening to abi(A) and chuckling
<painslt_VBM> i have not lost a BDSM relatinship, but have lost nilla ones, & the pain can be intense, i can only imagine the pain in losing a BDSM relationship
<shadoe> especially if it ends because one of the partners die
<sexyy2004> since the trust is such a big factor in bdsm relationships.... how hard is it to give that to A/another next time ?
<painslt_VBM> yes, grief is hard enough to deal with on it's own, w/o having to deal with loss of the D/s dynamics as well
<_dove> It isn't always trust that is broken
<shadoe> and so you've reached your 60's.. and your partner dies.. and it's your Master.. then what?
<painslt_VBM> sometimes people's needs & wants change, people drift apart
<shadoe> you get past the grief.. and you still need the structure.. because it's your nature
<painslt_VBM> ouch, that would be difficult shadoe
<QTIP> what happened with my hard feelings toward my bad debt break-up is i became indifferent. that's truly death to a relationship. it's not that i wouldn't talk about it. i did
<shadoe> but you are in your 60's.. and not 'marketable' in today's world
* `abi{A} sees a market for electrically propelled floggers
<shadoe> it would painslt.. and it's a reality
<QTIP> robo-spanker?
<painslt_VBM> you can provide structure for yourself, it is the dynamics i would miss most
<shadoe> i understand you all are talking about shorter term relationships that go south
<Johncin> good question shadoe
<shadoe> but the reality is.. some and many do last longer
<cailinTitan> yessss
<painslt_VBM> yes, they do
<shadoe> and as we age.. the reality is also that we will lose our Master/submissive
<Beswitched> 7 years for me....
<`abi{A}> it's true shadoe.... and I think that's one of the long term functions of a 'community'
<shadoe> and the one left behind.. still has their nature that now does not have an outlet
<Beswitched> so true shadoe
<painslt_VBM> if the relationship was loss through terminal illnes, the partners could discuss what to do after the death, provide for the other one
<`abi{A}> losing a partner is an inevitability for at least 50% of the population ... and the circle of people that we surround ourselves with, ultimately provide that ongoing connection
<jewel`{F}> thinking of the sub that has lost that structure, what of the Dom that may not know how to take care of themselves, day to day,
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<shadoe> exactly jewel
<shadoe> it's not like we have an old folks home for bdsm'ers
<jewel`{F}> tasks such as groceries, cooking, laundry
<painslt_VBM> lol shadoe
<bondagebabe> How can a Dom take on responsiblity for someone else if they can't look after themselves first?
<sexyy2004> i think this community is lucky that others do care.. there are venue's such as this to join .... and there are many " older " Dom's out there ( i just don't notice alot of older subs... lol )
<_dove> well said abi
<jewel`{F}> where is the vaccuum kept
<shadoe> i'm an older sub sexyy
<painslt_VBM> how to turn on the vaccuum?
<Kilted_One> shadoe..been there done that and you dont get over it but you do learn to live with it and move on..(well she wasnt my master but you know what I mean)...and low and behold you find all kinds of wonderfull ppl out there that give you distractions and wonderful new experiences
<painslt_VBM> the washer/dryer
<sexyy2004> cool shadoe..... that pleases me.... i am older, too ( i think.... birthday this Friday )
<MsMaple> How old is 'older' sexyy2004?
<Titan> old as you feel
<shadoe> true KO
<`abi{A}> no shadoe, you are and older sexyy sub ;)
<QTIP> good question, sexyy2004. i've had to practice self-control in order to practice taking control of another
<sexyy2004> MsMaple.. i will be 49 on Friday !
<painslt_VBM> that's older???????????
* shadoe smooches abi
<Beswitched> happy birthday MsMaple
<QTIP> happy b'day, MsMaple. i'm 53 tomorrow
<sexyy2004> giggling..... well it's older to some !
<painslt_VBM> lol
<Beswitched> and happy happy to you QTIP
<sexyy2004> awww happy birthday Qtip .....
<nightmans> fell like a bab y see this age's go by
<Titan> lol
<QTIP> being pisceans, MsMaple and i should start a school ;-)
<nightmans> Titan you think i youngest in here???
<painslt_VBM> <<38
<sexyy2004> pssst. it's me who has the birthday ... lol
<shadoe> probably nightmans
<nightmans> any one here under 25?
<Titan> that would be a assumption....no comment
* MsMaple points to herself .. why's my name all over the place?
<painslt_VBM> lol, dunno MsMaple
<Justice> happy birthday sexyy2004
<sexyy2004> thank You , Justice !!!
<Beswitched> oops
<MsMaple> So all you guys who are older than lil old ME are all older?
* MsMaple gets it now
<Titan> Im 99 dam I look good
<nightmans> is guy under 25 i younger
<QTIP> i misread
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<sexyy2004> < not old... just wisened and smarter now !