February 17, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion
<janizz> i have been told there are like 9 steps to training, and after each lever there is a reward..ie: a collar, then tatoos, then scarification...can someone explain the leves to me
<shadoe{S}> do we have definitions then.. of what people feel training is? pepperpot.. what do you think?
<Sir_Riversong> I would say that roughly, training is using rewards and discipline in order to encourage desired behaviour while discouraging undesired behavior. But I also agree it goes beyond behavior modification, and provides the submissive with skills that allow for self-growth and development.
<Mistresskatherine> wow hello E/everyone im new in here , do i have the right room and conversation on training-what does it mean??
<Sir_Riversong> yes, certainly Mistress Katherine
<rose_Deid{MD}> being trained to me is listening to Masters instructions and doing what He tells me to , to the best of my ability
<pepperpot`> i don't see training...
<shadoe{S}> yes Katherine
* Gaston58 nods in agreement with Sir_Riversong.
<pepperpot`> i see a structured environment
<pepperpot`> i see compatibility...
<pepperpot`> and willingness...
* coppertan agrees with pepperpot
<mirela`> its learning behaviours, and the cues for those behaviours
<Mistresskatherine> ok Thanks i see that now
<jewel`{F}> i think that training is as individual as each D/d relationship, as each Dom/me wants certain behaviours and how They expect it
<shadoe{S}> but that's essentially what training is.. it's like going to school.. and being "taught" .. and no one objects to that.. but once we hit adulthood.. people seem to take offense at the word.. and yet.. even the new job involves training.. the only reward is money.. is that what makes the difference?
<oasis{Omy}> training is very individualised... what works for one may not work with anoter...positive.. negative reinforcement.. building new haibits .. setting goals
<jewel`{F}> Some may use a "reward" system so that when the sub gets a behaviour correct the sub is rewarded, Others may use discipline when the behaviour is not correct
<Gaston58> re: the word "training". I've never thought of it that way. But there's a big stigma re: alternative sexual practices.. being "trained" in sexual (or even non-sexual matters like servitude) seem strange.. almost... selfish for the Dominant.
<QTIP> besides the fact that this type of play leads toward sexual intensity, my usual aim is to make my partner "better" (more confident, more well rounded, more experienced with things outside the usual). to do so i also force myself to be better
<shadoe{S}> here's an example of a kind of training.. when i met Himself.. i was a few errrr years.. younger.. and few pounds lighter (damn)... and i had no trouble getting sex whereever i wanted.. i used it as a tool to avoid 'me'.. He cut me off from that, no sex.. no toys, nothing.. for over 7 months.. that was a training.. a training to make me work on "me".. is it really that bad?
<Gaston58> to some, yes. to others, no.
<shadoe{S}> to the some 'yes'.. then i'd suggest they don't need that kind of training.. so then that would suggest that 'training' is as individual as well..the individual
<shadoe{S}> how necessary do you feel training is to you? (addressing this to the room)
<Sir_Riversong> yes, agreed shadoe. Training to Me is looking at what is needed for growth, talking about those goals together, and then implementing... for the betterment of both parties (yes, I always grow when helping others... a side benefit).
<lil_kitten> in a formal sense? absolutely unneccessary
<shadoe{S}> but what do you think training is lil kitten?
<pepperpot`> so giving your partner the environment to grow as a person is considered training?
<shadoe{S}> do you think it's being papertrained?
<shadoe{S}> or exploring yourself..
<rose_Deid{MD}> my training is necessary so i may please Master and make him happy therefore making me happy too
* QTIP is always exploring himself (not always physically) ;-)
<shadoe{S}> rsoe.. i dunno.. being trained to only please Master just feels wrong to me.. being trained to understand myself (and knowing my Master expects that of me) seems more comfortable
<jewel`{F}> for me somethings have just come easy, but other things Master has had to "remind" me about doing or not doing, so those "reminders" are a way of training
<rose_Deid{MD}> that to shadoe
<lil_kitten> no, learning one thing and exploring yourself with yourself and with another is necessary, but I do not consider that "training..." being taught how to be "a good sub" is IMO, not necessary, ie. in the formal sense, as every partner a sub is ever with will be different and expect something very different.
<shadoe{S}> so lil kitten.. do you think being trained to serve your Master in the manner He prefers is not necessary?
<lil_kitten> I don't see quite how self-exploration can be called training, you *learn* who you are as you grow inside and outside of BDSM, you don't need to be shown who you are, or taught who you are
* Dragonchaserfs thinks training is teaching ones submissive to focus and complete the task at hand .. so each thing I do is to reach that goal .. It teaches me to focus on her ability and to be exacting in what I demand of her and it teachs her how to do what is required of her and shows her she can acomplish the task she saw as a mountain..
<Gaston58> it's always good to "know thyself". A lot of near-eastern philosophy involves that... .and training (tho of a different sort)
<Mistresskatherine> well i feel training is necessary , in order to mould the bottom into what he or she should be for the Dom/Domme
<shadoe{S}> mine prefers a two handed serve at all times.. He made that part of my training.. but He also allowed me the right to express that i prefer my tea without sugar thank you very much.. i don't think that's wrong
<lil_kitten> in that sense, fine - but that is not necessarily a *formal* training - it's a very individual teaching for that individual Dom.
<lil_kitten> It's not something that will always help you please someone else
<rose_Deid{MD}> well said Dragonchaserfs
<shadoe{S}> actually.. it is lil kitten.. i two hand serve everyone now.. even in vanilla land
<firestar{DC}> some tasks being larger mountains than others
<shadoe{S}> they get a surprised look.. but a pleased look as well, to have that level of attention
<lil_kitten> I wasn't referring to two handed serves, I was referring to the comment I made below yours
<shadoe{S}> P took me from bimbo biker bitch from hell.. to being graceful, He trained me to behave elegantly.. thus reflecting who He is actually.. and i'm proud to do that
<shadoe{S}> and feel a lot better about myself.
<Mistresskatherine> also anyone that is new to the lifestyle requires training , in order to serve a Dom/Domme to his or her liking training is necessary .
* lil_kitten re-reads - but for some things, as I said, not something that will always help - I've heard many subs refer to themselves as "trained" by so-and-so for so many years, but every individual out there will be unique, and what you are trained to do to please one might be completely contrary to what is desired in another relationship - so then you have to leasrn again, and again, and maybe again *shrugs*
<coppertan> this may be an odd question, but are these ideas about training based on relationships that are M/s, D/s, Top/bottom, R/L or cyber?
<shadoe{S}> okay. is there a level of 'training' that is generic? that could be applied no matter where you are in a relationship?
<Dragonchaserfs> with training any submissive/slave/bottom can learn how to suceed but many dont like the training so they give up or say it is to hard to the Master has to teach/train the submissive to suceed..
<rose_Deid{MD}> my relationship is online right now
<shadoe{S}> i'm suggesting two handed serving could be pretty generic
<shadoe{S}> i bet there is coppertan.. that's a good point
<pepperpot`> protocols and rituals...i think everything else may fall under the personal growth category
<lil_kitten> well, there is generic learning - more so, IMO, the things you learn about yourself are generically useful, not techniques, though I am absolutely not saying they are useLESS, just not *necessarily* useful outside of one relationship
<`abi> I think that if you consider training to be preparation, then there is much than can be generic ... it's like going to school in preparation for the workplace where you will apply what you know ... differently in each work environment
<lil_kitten> lol - are protocols and rituals generic?
<shadoe{S}> so okay.. if protocals and rituals are generic.. then could we slot them into the generic training process.. that would apply to any situation?
<shadoe{S}> exactly abit
<Sir_Riversong> I can see the two sides to training. On the one hand, there are the basic things Mistress Katherine has mentioned... teaching the submissive how the Dom/me would like to be addressed, how to interact in public, etc. And on the other hand, the type of training that helps a submissive to be the best person they can be... with loving and perhaps sometimes firm encouragement.
<shadoe{S}> abi even.. sheesh.. i need new fingers
* `abi winks at shadoe ... 'tis okay, I'm abit of alot of things ;)
* shadoe{S} laughs
<shadoe{S}> i personally think that the word training hits a lot of negative buttons for people
<shadoe{S}> they think "hey! i'm an adult.. what do you mean i need training!"
<Dragonchaserfs> training implies force
<rose_Deid{MD}> IMO to be able to train a sub/slave a Master or Mistress must be firm and often strict
<Mistresskatherine> you cant be a submissive for years i feel and have been trained in many ways in different areas , but each Dom/me expects something different , and for their sub to be trained to be the way they want you to be.
<Dragonchaserfs> most people detest force
<pepperpot`> one is trained to do a job...i don't consider a relationship a job
<Mistresskatherine> can be that is sorry error n that
<Dragonchaserfs> it is human nature
<shadoe{S}> and it's really hard to twist your mind around to the idea of it being just as good for you as attending the gym on a regular basis
<lil_kitten> Well shadoe, I think there are very feow people out there who would agree on the exact style and inclusions of training
<QTIP> some enjoy being coerced. some enjoy the idea of being "kept". some want to be of service. the aim of any training is as individual as the 2 in relationship
<shadoe{S}> a relationship is a lot harder than a job .. my opinion
<`abi> I consider training to be learning ... and learning is certainly part of a relationship
* Gaston58 nods emphatically at shadoe{S}.
* lil_kitten agrees, but a relationship is often much more flexible than a job
<shadoe{S}> but Qtip.. is training necessary.. that's the crux of it all
<shadoe{S}> or is it just another BDSM ditty to make us unique
<Dragonchaserfs> yes training is necessary in all walks of life
<QTIP> i need/hate being pushed out of my own comfort zone. i don't mind if a challenging relationship does that. i might not like it
<pepperpot`> in every relationship the two learn about each other, what makes them happy...and even in nilla they strive to please each other
<pepperpot`> so is that training too?
<firestar{DC}> very true Dragonchaserfs
<Dragonchaserfs> not just bdsm .. but in bdsm training becomes refined to each persons need
<shadoe{S}> i'd say it is pepperpot
<Mistresskatherine> very true shadoe>...... right now im training a sub of mine which is r/t to become a better sub and how to act and accept his punishment when he has done wrong. It is a very difficult task as times expecialy for a Dom/me.
<lil_kitten> I would think that some training is necessary for some relationships, depending on the degree of servitude, rituals, protocol in that relationship, but not necessary in some, as for me - I didn't need training for my current relationship, the point was to be "me" as advertized, not as adapted
<coppertan> lol.....try telling a nilla couple that...
<`abi> pepperpot` ... I think it is to an extent, but in BDSM, the form that learning takes is often more structured
<pepperpot`> so it's simply more structured and disciplined
<coppertan> not training...in nilla they call it compromising...no?
* `abi smiles...well, I'm not sure there's anything simple about it :)
<coppertan> exactly pepperpot
<shadoe{S}> lil kitten..if you suddenly found yourself in a new relationship.. one that says you have to do a training process (keeping in mind you really really want to be there).. and part of the training process is to explore your ability to write.. you would find that oppressive?
<pepperpot`> it is very simple actually...but it seems to be made more complicated and difficult than it needs to be
<lil_kitten> I would think the only true generic training is learning through experience what *you* as a sub or whatever, likes, dislikes, and will not do - your style
<coppertan> it's more interesting if it's complicated pepperpot
<pepperpot`> lol
<pepperpot`> true
<lil_kitten> Trained to write or told to write? very different
<`abi> and it is also possible pepperpot` that it's more complex than just learning to do stuff
<shadoe{S}> told to explore you given talent to write
<shadoe{S}> there's a difference
<pepperpot`> it's a relationship of two people who are interacting with each other...they find how it works best for them
<firestar{DC}> every sub/Master has different expectations, limits and so on. imho one sub cannot expect to not receive some form of 'training' when and if she/he moves on to another
<`abi> training can involve learning to understand yourself, your partner, your relationship, how what you are "works" in this world
<shadoe{S}> because somewhere deep inside you'd know you had the talent.. and that the dominant was not asking for more than you can give
<Dragonchaserfs> or even visits another Master
<lil_kitten> I would find being told to write in a style that is not my own annoying, but not oppressive... being told to explore my own abilities, I don't consider that training, it's just doing something I can already do, only more often and when I'm told
<pepperpot`> but what if you really can't write shadoe{S}?
<firestar{DC}> yes true Master
<pepperpot`> all the training in the world isn't going to make you a writer
<shadoe{S}> well hopefully the dominant isnt asking what you cant do pepperpot
<lil_kitten> exactly lol
<shadoe{S}> although saddly that's not always the case
<`abi> but if you are good writer, it can make you a better one
<shadoe{S}> exactly abi
<Dragonchaserfs> or TEACH you a different style of writeing
<dalian> and you may not be a good writer...but the exercise will allow the sub to at least explore expressing herself by the written word
<coppertan> so if you're not a good writer (like myself) and your
<dalian> which she would not have done otherwise
<coppertan> you're forced to write....it's like being set up for failure...(been there)
<rose_Deid{MD}> coppertan you still should try
<Sir_Riversong> But a good Dom/me will not set up a submissive to fail. The point of training is to build up the submissive (and the Dom/me in the process).
<shadoe{S}> i think if you are going to allow yourself to be trained in this ds world.. you really have to open your mind and fight against the word no.. you really have to try.. yes, say no if its going to be physically or emotionally damaging beyond repair.. but the rest of the time.. just take a deep breath and try
<coppertan> does that mean you've failed your training?
<coppertan> who said i didn't try?
<Sir_Riversong> Which is not to say that failure doesn't happen... it is a part of life. But then, W/we learn how to deal with failure as well, and even that can be a part of training, for those who need to learn that.
<shadoe{S}> coppertan.. i'm not talking about you
<Gaston58> I don't know.. sometimes setting someone up to fail can be a valuable lesson--but only if it's to teach a lesson and not to satisfy the sadistic desires of the Dominant. There's a time and place for everything...
<lil_kitten> training to learn something new, or more in depth is one thing, "training" to be something other than what you are is not IMO, going to encourge any kind of personal growth, or help either party.
<pepperpot`> this is all based on the premise, that the dom is a very knowledgeable being...much moreso than the sub
<Gaston58> ...and that place is called college. :)
<pepperpot`> that is a scary thought
<coppertan> which we know isn't always the case
<Dragonchaserfs> if you dont suceed you havent failed ..you and your Master /Dome discuss the way to make it better and try again till you get it right
* lil_kitten agrees with coppertan
<Mistresskatherine> it is no different really then training your kids to do things, or training an animal to behave.If your not trained then you dont really know what is acceptable or expected from your Dom/me.Training teaches them what is expected and what needs to be instiled in your sub inorder to please or be a good sub.
<`abi> well, in this case pepperpot, I think that anyone who is submitting themselves to a training process, does so with faith in the ability of the Dominant to guide them through that process
<shadoe{S}> okay question.. asking all the dominants.. do you feel training is valuable? yes or no
<`abi> If you don't have that faith, then you shouldn't be undertaking the process
* shadoe{S} kisses abi
<rose_Deid{MD}> you are right Sir
<lil_kitten> I fully agree with the concept of "teach me how to please you" but "teach me how to be a good sub" - that is IMO, utter BS. A good sub is not something definable
<Dragonchaserfs> yes
<pepperpot`> i disagree abi..it means you have less faith in yourself...
<pepperpot`> and i don't think that is a good position to take
<Sir_Riversong> I haven't yet been in a D/s relationship where training was not valuable and needed.
<`abi> no, it doesn't pepperpot ... I have complete faith in my ability to succeed in the process
<pepperpot`> i know me...a dom doesn't....
<QTIP> just like training "a good sub" is an individual thing
<Mistresskatherine> yes it is of course
<shadoe{S}> anymore answers from the doms?
* coppertan snickers..."a good sub"
<`abi> but I wouldn't submit myself to training by someone in whom I didn't have as much faith as I have in myself
<coppertan> and abi, how would you know?
<lil_kitten> a good sub in a Doms eyes is not the same as.. oh, I've been trained... so now I know how to be a good sub for any prospective Dom/me - I don't buy the second part
<`abi> because I wouldn't be doing it with someone I didn't already know very well coppertan
<shadoe{S}> i personally enjoy going into training .. when the end result of the training is that i've accomplished more of what i can be
<Sir_Riversong> True shadoe
<`abi> trust is a very important prerequisite for training
<coppertan> but sometimes you can think you know someone...because they're just really good at hiding stuff....submit to them....then find out that they're not who they seemed to be....but that's a different topic
* `abi smiles...yes, it is coppertan
<shadoe{S}> so i'm getting the sense here that the dominants think training is a good thing.. and the majority of submissives think it's a wank
<shadoe{S}> am i wrong?
<Mistresskatherine> sounds like that to me shadoe
<pepperpot`> if the dom is showing the sub how he likes things to be done within the agreed upon structure, that's one thing
<lil_kitten> it's not all wank
* lil_kitten nods to pepperpot`
<rose_Deid{MD}> not to me i know i need the training Master gives me
<coppertan> of course the Dom's think it's good... *S*
<pepperpot`> if the dom has taken it upon himself to change the sub to be the person he wants her to be, and not who she is, then that's different
* lil_kitten really really nods to pepperpot` again
<QTIP> training is useful in maintaining the edge/intensity in a D/s relationship as well
<shadoe{S}> but pepperpot.. in any discussion we can only assume..and in this one we are assuming ti
<shadoe{S}> it's all in good faith..
<lil_kitten> good faith or not, it doesn't always "work"
* QTIP remembers a line from the movie Little Murders: "I don't want to change you. I want to mold you"
<QTIP> ;-)
<shadoe{S}> no.. it doesnt always work.. you are right
<Mistresskatherine> if a sub is not trained to be what he needs to be in order to succeed and please his or her Dom/me then he has free rains to do what he pleases and however he pelases. Which should not be the case. Not all subs out ther have yrs of experience and of course if it is a new D/s relationship especially for the sub , well them it is obvious he is going to need to be trained , he doesnt know what it is all really about , or wh
<lil_kitten> it can, it does, but not always - people as people just can't twist themselves to be all things to all other people - you are who you are whether you know it or not, and you're limited by that - it's not a bad thing, but that's just the way things are. No amount of training will change that short of brainwashing...
<`abi> I don't think of it as training to be something that you aren't ... training is about learning to be something that you are
<suzq{CK}> is 'training' not an enhancement of who you are or who you want to be?
<rose_Deid{MD}> i think it is suzq
<MysticMz> Excuse me for jumping in at the last hour here......BUT....training to me...is the life and breath of D/s...
<pepperpot`> and just who is the dom, to do that?? has he got years of behavioural schooling?? a PhD by any chance??
<coppertan> lol....my guess is NO
<`abi> or a good understanding of me and what I want to be pepperpot`
<lil_kitten> in the best situation, yes abi - but if someone else is training you to be who you are, they'd have to know you inside and out - better than yourself, to train you to better yourself and not just expand your "task" knowledge.
<Mistresskatherine> yes i agree kitten , but also if the sub is in agreeance with the training is what i feel , if he doesnt want to be trained by men then he doesnt want to serve me.
<suzq{CK}> He is my husband of 20 years pepperpot`
<Mistresskatherine> me that is not men
<rose_Deid{MD}> it all comes down to communication between Dom/me and sub/salve
<shadoe{S}> alright.. we've debated the ins and outs of training.. i personally think it's valid.. if for no other reason that to understand what each other needs..
<lil_kitten> exactly (knew it was me not men) - though does that mean that *everyone* needs to be trained?
<shadoe{S}> but bottom line is.. if you enter a relationship and say yes to the training
<shadoe{S}> then you have to live up to that expectation
<`abi> no, lil_kitten ... I think that they need to know you *differently* than you know yourself
<shadoe{S}> i think we need to get past the idea that training = paper trained
<shadoe{S}> like a pet
<Mistresskatherine> well i personally feel as a Domme that some amount of training will be necessary , heck if it wasnt i would be gratefully happy . It is to much work , you subs are very stressful on us Dommes,lol.
<rose_Deid{MD}> lol
<Gaston58> heh.
<shadoe{S}> subs are a lot of work.. :)
<ladywo1f> laffs...i think the same could be said about the Dom/mes
<shadoe{S}> keeps you guys on your toes
<Gaston58> plain ol' being a Dominant is tough work.
<lil_kitten> Some Doms might like to see how imaginative their sub can be, with a general "prepare dinner" or something - for some but not all, giving an order and allowing the sub to truly be themselves as a sub, and not the sub that may be ideal, is truly pleasing - to see how far out of their way the sub will go to please them, instead of seeing how well they can rigidly follow a series of instructions on how to cook dinner and prepare th
<ladywo1f> i usually find the delivery menu to my dom's fav. restaurant and order in....
<`abi> there are also multitudinous reasons for learning "tasks". In addition to learning something which may be pleasing to a Dom, learning a task means learning to focus, gaining an understanding of something, raising your awareness ... all valid exercises
<ladywo1f> grins...then i am not taken away from taking care of my Dom/me...grins
<coppertan> lol....
<lil_kitten> and in that situation, the sub learns by picking up on what pleases their Dom, without having to be told - they are learning rather than being taught. So the end result is improvement of their abilities as a submissive for that Dom, sans "training."
<`abi> the mastering of a task may have a reason not even directly related to the task...but to the process of learning it
<shadoe{S}> well call me crazy but i dont find anything wrong with being trained by someone i trust with something that exactly matches my nature
<lil_kitten> that's true abi - and that can be helpful, a good experience.
<lil_kitten> but that's a personal choice - I think training in those manners should be a choice as much as whether or not you will do X, Y, and Z activities as well
<`abi> well lil_kitten ... I think that the level of personal choice is dependent upon the level of power exchange that you are engaged in
<lil_kitten> there's nothing wrong with being trained, but I don't think there is anything wrong with not being trained either - different strokes for different folks
<lil_kitten> well, I would hope one would be mindful enough to discuss such things prior to giving over that power - before the relationship begins!
<`abi> I would think so too lil_kitten
* Gaston58 waves to everyone. Goodnight, all.
<lil_kitten> Sub or not, if you're not using your highest level of personal choice before starting a relationship, and knowing what may be asked of you, then you are walking on some very thin ice