February 11 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for the discussion to begin
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Can We Escape the Ghost of De Sade". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> This is one of the last of the topics that was suggested a while back, but never got picked by the moderators. The idea is that when people think of "sadism" they think of the excesses of the Marquis rather than what we *really* do, so the question becomes "how do we escape from those misconceptions -- the 'ghost of De Sade'".
<BernieRoehl> So, any initial thoughts?
<DarkAngel^{nym}> MMmmm well who thinks they are a sadist here ?
<Lancaster{d}> yes
<Lancaster{d}> who is Desade
<DarkAngel^{nym}> my initial thoughts are DA
* BernieRoehl stays clear of the word, for the most part
<deviantangel> i hate to seem completely innocent and uneducated but could you give a quick example of De Sade please?
<BernieRoehl> DeSade was the Marquis De Sade, an author playwright and, well, sadist. He died in 1814.
<DarkAngel^{nym}> as do I BernieRoehl
<deviantangel> ty Bernie
<DarkAngel^{nym}> DeSade was one who openly enjoyed inflicting painful sensations on others in a sexual manner
<BernieRoehl> His name is where the word 'sadism' comes from
<Lancaster{d}> what are the missconceptions
<fluxieGalore> If I have it right De Sade was not using willing victims...right?
<BernieRoehl> He supposedly kidnapped innocent village girls and inflicted horrible tortures on them, for his sexual pleasure
<BernieRoehl> Thats right, fluxie
<DarkAngel^{nym}> the media has made him a devil ,,, as apposed to an author who expressed his true kinks way before his time
<deviantangel> i think the obvious answer is anyone who comes at you with the idea that wiitwd is 'sadism' is to educate them with an open discussion
<DarkAngel^{nym}> but deviantangel ,, in many respects ,, it is what we do ,,lol
<fluxieGalore> personally I would put DeSade closer to Jeff Dahmer, than to WIITWD...
<Lancaster{d}> I have a suggestion bernie may seem a little out there though
<deviantangel> if you are using Safe, Sane and Consensual as a basis for your D/s relationship then you needn't justify your relationship to anyone
<DarkAngel^{nym}> it is the intent that is misconstrued ,,, as well as the target ,,, I for one have no interest in playing with an un-willing "victum"
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I agree fluxieGalore ,,, if the stories are true
<Lancaster{d}> A movie that truly shows the love and trust and honour between two loving people in the lifestyle ,, a mainstream one
<fluxieGalore> yes, but that is all we have now, and also those are the stories that affect other's judgement on the term "sadism"
* DarkAngel^{nym} started in the lifestyle with casual loving play with the wife ,, spanking,, mild bondage,, roll play ect
<dalian> perhaps it is because the media in its many forms depicts what we do is not for pleasure...images of screaming victims and "mean spirited" protagonists abound
<Lancaster{d}> too often in movies when bdsm is shown it is not good such as in 9mm
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I have explored ,, and with a willing interesting intelegent partner ,, I do find a taste that might certainly frighten the vanilla public
<DebUTaunt> I'd add that there are so many (false) connections between bdsm and satanism-type stuff to influence a viewer
<Stevius> has anyone seen Quills? I interpretated that movie as a very sympathetic portrait of deSade
<DarkAngel^{nym}> it is an easy boogie-man to use for the media
<Ldy_Venus> Greetings A/all
* Kilted_One jumps into Bernie's empty chair
* deviantangel *nods agreement with DA* ĽKilted_OneĽ but is it not a big leap of faith for the regular public to be "OK" with what we do and they would tell stories of us that would amount to the same as De Sade????
<fluxieGalore> I don't think whether the stories are true or not is an issue
<DebUTaunt> DA... it's not the media per se... it's a convenient icon for writers, that audiences relate to
<fluxieGalore> it's whether we want to associate ourselves with those stories...true or not
<DebUTaunt> like the black hat cowboy is the bad guy
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I actually do not concern myself much ,, even with what you my comunity thinks of my various kinks ,,,, I only concern myself with my partners views ,,,, these to me are too personal
<DarkAngel^{nym}> besides ,, you are A/all weirdos *innocent grin*
<rhiannon^^> hi... since i'm rather new, i don't know the story of de Sade... could someone enlighten me please?
<janiz> i think education is whats needed, like how i told my family.... the difference between the "books" and the reality
<fluxieGalore> first thing I always tell somebody when I am talking about Wicca "witches don't even believe in Satan"...the stereotypes are so hard to kill, otherwise. Start early and dissassociate ĽKilted_OneĽ <BernieRoehl> DeSade was the Marquis De Sade, an author playwright and, well, sadist. He died in 1814.
<DarkAngel^{nym}> Kilted_One ,,, I have had the pleasure of introducing one ,,, ok,, maybe more than one vanilla into a few aspects ,,, the main thing that they say is ,,MMmm it isnt pain ,, it is sensation
<Lancaster{d}> he kidnapped innocent victems in the 1800 and sexualy abused and tortured them for his pleasure
<rhiannon^^> i see
<Ldy_Venus> didn't he go mad from a sexually transmitted disease?
<DarkAngel^{nym}> yes janiz ,,,, education ,,,, but I believe ,, only their personal education ,,, in personal exploration themselves into the sensation play
<fluxieGalore> he wrote a lot of his work in prison
<Stevius> umm...remember de Sade was an author...he did not write from personal experience
<MasterGuny> Evening
<janiz> i dont understand DA
<DebUTaunt> Stevius? what would you base that on. His recent bio on Biography claimed it was 99% on personal experience
<Lancaster{d}> DA are you saying the y must experience it
<munched> hello A/all
<DarkAngel^{nym}> well janiz ,,, the only way someone is truely going to understand BDSM ,,, is for them to explore it themselves
<deviantangel> i have a hard time relating to this topic since Master and I are still quite private in who we share our lifestyle choices with
* Kilted_One thought that he was always writing about his "personal experiences" hence being in jail
<DarkAngel^{nym}> yes Lancaster{d}
<janiz> ahhhh DA i disagree...you dont have to have cancer to understand what its all about
<DarkAngel^{nym}> as am I deviantangel ,,,
<DebUTaunt> I'd disagree, janiz... there's always a gap between the intellectual understanding and the true empathy
<Stevius> de Sade fantasies were far too elaborate to have been enacted
<DarkAngel^{nym}> but janiz ,,,,, do you assume that you DO understand everything about cancer by watching a domilkentary ?
<deviantangel> communities like ehbc and educational web sites are easily available and if someone were to ask me about the difference between bdsm & sadism i would tell them to research
<Lancaster{d}> well even Vanilla people have certain types of sexual preferences, all my friends know i love to spank women but they do not know how far into the lifestyle I am or even that the lifestyle exists,, they think it is funny
<janiz> i may have miss understood..what im saying is, that for me, i talked to my vinalla family, explained to them from my experience... comforted them that it was a safe sane and conscentual decision
<deviantangel> their own answer and draw thier own conclusions
<DarkAngel^{nym}> on the surface ,,, I get off on spanking my sub ,,, on a personal level ,, we explore sensation to explore a deeper intamacy
<deviantangel> well put Dark Angel
<DarkAngel^{nym}> ty deviantangel ,,,, ĽKilted_OneĽ do you think that the General Public still relate Sadism with De Sade??
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I do believe it the food need be sampled to truely understand it's flavour
<Lancaster{d}> yes DA but in open with my friends i do dnot get into detail just the surface that is all,, since I have mentioned this some of my friends are mildly opening up to it
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I dont think they do now,,, as they did 20 yrs ago Kilted_One
<janiz> Kilted-One...i think its a generation thing ĽKilted_OneĽ what do you think has changed??
<LrdTZ> DarkAngel^{nym} you talk about exploring sensation growing with your sub. Have you ever experienced the sensation of being spanked instead of being the spanker??
<fluxieGalore> I don't think public opinion has come that far at all..if you look at recent tv shows and newspapers
<DarkAngel^{nym}> brb
<dalian> maybe the writings of DeSade are no longer as prolific as they once were
<Lancaster{d}> i have never heard of DeSade before tonight myself,,,
<janiz> personal sexuality is more accepted
<DebUTaunt> wow... now I'm REALLY feeling old
<jewell{T}> me to DebUTaunt..me to!!
<LrdTZ> yeah the young ones do that to us DebUTaunt.
<DebUTaunt> sheesh....
<fluxieGalore> *shrug* any encyclopaedia will refer to DeSade on the write up on "Sadism" unfortunately not to us :(
* `abi offers to share her walker with DebUTaunt and jewell
<janiz> i am old...*laughing*
<DebUTaunt> what ARE they teaching in school these days????
<Lancaster{d}> ,,,wait a minute is he the guy that invented the spanking machine ,,, and did have a wife that stayed by his side through much of this
<rhiannon^^> me neither Lancaster{d}... think i might have to catch up on some lit
<LrdTZ> if you research the history of BDSM you will come across De Salle
<deviantangel> who's De Salle?
<`abi> I can remember looking for De Sade's writings because it was the closest thing to kink that could be found in the public library ĽKilted_OneĽ he wrote and published I believe two books and a third outline was found but never completed
<Lancaster{d}> he did anal sex mostly
<LrdTZ> sorry De Sade's been a very long weekend.
<jewell{T}> i'm amazed at the number of people here who haven't heard of DeSade...
* Kilted_One asks for a show of hand for those who have heard of De Sade? and raises his own hand
* dalian raises her hand
<LrdTZ> hand up
* jewell{T} raises her hand..
* Justice^ raises his hand
<fluxieGalore> lol..even Sasher Masoch ;)
* ^rhiannon^ raises her hand..;)
<Lancaster{d}> I think maybe ,, heard of some sicko
<janiz> hand up high
<rhiannon^^> nope, sorry
<janiz> all these pretty colours....envious
<dalian> actually i first heard of DeSade in History of Witchcraft books...lol
<`abi> present
<`abi> oh ...wait ... this isn't attendance check
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> hands down
<dalian> which of course had nothing to do with one another....
<jewell{T}> well i heard of DeSade back in the 60's but then alot was going on then..
<janiz> if Yyou will excuse me..... ~enjoy~
<Kirspin> He is still there as far as the Vanilla World is concerned
<`abi> but do you remember it jewell? ;)
<dalian> but i think his name was mentioned specifically because he was also considered to be an alchemist...though they didn't write much about that part...and just stuck to the horrible tortures inflicted
<jewell{T}> oh yeah..:-)) ĽKilted_OneĽ with communication and the general publics awareness of these matters at the time do you think that it he were doing the same things today he would have been seen differently??
<jewell{T}> well if he killed his victims..yes he would be seen as a monster..
<dalian> i think so KO
<fluxieGalore> I don't think so...the lack of consent is the thing...He'd be on all the tabloids once he got arrested...and no book-royalties
<dalian> correction...doesn't think so
<`abi> and we'd all still be painted with the same brush ... the same way we are now when something awful happens and there is a BDSM link
<Stevius> de Sade was writing in the 17th century, in a very repressive and religous regime... ĽKilted_OneĽ so the passing of time has helped us you think??
<Stevius> its much different nowadays
<fluxieGalore> then again Stevius..it was easier to get victims given the lack of protection of the loewr classes
<Stevius> yes, thats true fluxieGalore
<BernieRoehl> (I'm back, hopefully for a bit)
<fluxieGalore> I just try to avoid any association..don't even like to use the word sadism actually, just in case
<dalian> i don't know if the appearance of DeSade in these times would be equated with the bdsm community...i can't see DeSade frequenting fet nights etc
<deviantangel> wb Bernie
* BernieRoehl blinks at two rhiannons (uh... rhiannonae?)
<rhiannon^^> lol... very funny
<fluxieGalore> I don't think he'd be welcome, that's for sure...unless the current permissiveness caused him to do _consentually_ what he had to do non-consentually back then
* BernieRoehl smiles
<dalian> DeSade would still be seen as a serial rapist with a penchant for sexual torture
<KneelB4me> hello everyone
<jewell{T}> i agree dalian
<fluxieGalore> I can't remember if it was the specific acts or the lack of consent (or a combination) with him...anybody?
<KneelB4me> hi deviantangel
<dalian> it was both ĽKilted_OneĽ is there any real facts that support what he done in r/l besides what he wrote in his books??
<fluxieGalore> ahh, thanks
<Stevius> it was both, fluxieGalore
<Stevius> I think a lot of it has been lost in the mists of time, KO.... ĽKilted_OneĽ and maybe "gorified" too perhaps???
<dalian> i'm not sure KO...but i've never thought to research it either
<Stevius> yes...he was a writer, thats about all he was, as far as I know
<BernieRoehl> There's a cute little book called "Introducing Marquis De Sade" -- complete with amusing illustrations. Published by Totem Books. ĽKilted_OneĽ there is one story that he was actually framed by some gentry so that they could steal his country dwelling for their own
<BernieRoehl> He was an aristocrat, who was accused of all kinds of things but got away with most of it because of his status. Eventually, people said "Okay, whoa -- this is getting out of hand" and locked him up
* deviantangel makes a mental note to go look it up at Chapters
<BernieRoehl> Yes, that's probably true as well KO
<LrdTZ> hi blush{ND}
<blush{ND}> hello LrdTZ
<BernieRoehl> He did a lot of his writing in prison, but he got pretty nuts towards the end
<BernieRoehl> I missed part of the discussion, but the question is whether most people view "sadism" as being the kind of extreme things that the Marquis was into...? [BernieRoehl:#bdsm-kw PING] ĽKilted_OneĽ I think the short answer to that is that most dont know what he is or was into so they cant possibly relate to it
<dalian> perhaps if that was the only exposure to sadism
<this_lil_kitten> my two cents is that most in the vanilla realm do..., though I'm sure that's getting to be a redundant answer
* DarkAngel^{nym} back - sorry ,,,,,,,,,,,
<LrdTZ> most of the BDSM world does not know who he was either. not just the vanilla realm
<this_lil_kitten> it's like homosexuality in the fifties...
<BernieRoehl> So, how do we convince them it's not all about kidnapping and non-consensual torture?
<DarkAngel^{nym}> do we have to ? .....
<this_lil_kitten> Someone needs to make a domilkentary...
<deviantangel> why do we need to convince anyone?
<LrdTZ> we can't convince them BernieRoehl we have to try and educate them or get a court ruling saying that what we do is consenusal.
<deviantangel> if they are really interested in learning more there are resources available everywhere on the net and off to help ĽKilted_OneĽ I think that most see it as something far less but not acceptable none the less...I think that most see it as a form of abuse....
<DarkAngel^{nym}> there was one a while ago this_lil_kitten ,,,, and a Dom in Toronto was fetured ,,,,, editing made him look "not too good"
<this_lil_kitten> but problems lie in the individuals who are "assholes" and don't take the consentual route
<this_lil_kitten> I meant DA, someone in the scene needs to do a real domilkentary about the real scene/lifestyle...
<LrdTZ> why do you think Dante was not maked to look good??
<this_lil_kitten> not some idiot film producer going for shock value, "hey look at this asshole with his harem of 'submissives' whom he beats 'consentually'"
<BernieRoehl> That's a valid question -- maybe we don't need to convince anyone. But if we don't -- won't we all be treated by modern society the way De Sade was in 18th Century France?
<DarkAngel^{nym}> his own posts LrdTZ ,,, on the discusion list I am on]
<BernieRoehl> Right, that film was "Tops and Bottoms" -- gave a pretty distorted view on the scene as a whole, too
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I only caught a part of it ,, about the sub breaking the contract
<this_lil_kitten> the ones who will use the resources are already a little more kink-friendly than the mean, though...
<DarkAngel^{nym}> yes ,, that was it BernieRoehl ,,, ĽKilted_OneĽ I dont think that Dante had anything to do with De Sade....was that not more in that he was force outing a broken contracted slave that got him where he is today??
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I do think kink is making a good upswing in the media of late ,,
<Stevius> was that the tvo film, about a year ago, Bernie?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, that was it Stevius
<BernieRoehl> Yes, KO - that's basically what happened
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I agree Kilted_One ,,,, but they showed DeSade as explaining where BDSM origionated ,,,, as well as some stuff on Natzis
<BernieRoehl> Yeah, the World War II footage was sort of dropped in there out of the blue
<dalian> yeah...i didn't quite get where they were going with the Nazi's shots
<DarkAngel^{nym}> the media power of editing ,,,, I wonder what a curious vanilla got out of that show
<this_lil_kitten> People relate Nazis and sadism out of "nothingbettertodo" syndrome...
<DarkAngel^{nym}> I never would have this_lil_kitten ,,,, that was a real stretch
<this_lil_kitten> well, it's this "mean" sounding word that people associate with pain and suffering; Hitler was a "sick sadistic criminal." When there is *no* connection at all if someone were to actually pick up a dictionary.
<BernieRoehl> And yet, films like that do reinforce the connection between excessive, non-consensual violence and what we do. Which is, I think, very unfortunate.
<willing1> hello all
<BernieRoehl> Well, I notice by the clock on the wall (or rather, in the lower-right corner of my computer screen) that it's almost 10 pm.
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any last minute thoughts on Sadism and De Sade?
<this_lil_kitten> as a negative, it has good shock value... BDSM has a dark attractiveness that suffers at the hands of xenophobia
* DarkAngel^{nym} is off ,,,, fading into the darknes ,,,,,,, see those of Y/you who are goiing to be at LANO tomorrow night ,,,
<DarkAngel^{nym}> adieu A/all
<deviantangel> night DA
<dalian> DeSade is simply the opposite extreme of the bdsm spectrum to most people
<this_lil_kitten> DeSade was just an author...
<BernieRoehl> Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion... log should be uploaded tomorrow morning.
<BernieRoehl> Next week's topic is "How to Combat Dom Droop". See you then!
<dalian> thanks Bernie!