February 10, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

* `abi smiles ... well, I hate to interrupt dinner negotiations, but it's time to start our Sunday night discussion
<_04`abi_> welcome everyone
<_04`abi_> just a reminder that during discussions we try to refrain from Walton style hi-byes
<_04`abi_> our topic tonight is Communication: More than just talk
<_04`abi_> So, lets start with some thoughts on what sorts of unique communication issues we have that the vanilla community doesn't have
<_04`abi_> anyone like to open?
<Fyre{j}> negotiation comes to mine ... can't think of anything other than needing a clever pickup line in the 'nilla world
<heart_of_gold4> lol
<yummy> i can - the abilty to communicate "drop dead and die" to a top while blindfolded and forbidden to speak
<_04`abi_> you're quite right Fyre{j} ... negotiation is pretty unique to our lifestyle
<yummy> and no hand gestures either...well none that are obvious
* jewel`{F} giggles
<lil_kitten> that's true - negotiation in the vanilla word usually tends to center around issues no more complicated than birth control, monogamy...
<jewel`{F}> Dom & Dommes having to really know how to read body langauge during play sessions
<Jean__Luc> yes..
* `abi nods to jewel ... non-verbal communication is very important
<yummy> jewel`{F}, exactly, i can read a friends body language while scening easily....but each is very different
<Jean__Luc> specially with new subs..or subs that really want to please their D..to the point of not telling how they 'Really' feel
<Jean__Luc> that makes it particularly difficult at times..
<S_W> limit lists are frquently exchanged online MrScotdom, it has everything to do with it
<_04`abi_> yes, Jean__Luc ... I often hear bottoms express the fear that if they communicate their needs and wants, they are somehow topping from the bottom
<MrScotdom> negotiation S_W.... please elaborate.
<yummy> Jean__Luc, that is scary to me, you have to communicate honestly or you are in trouble
<S_W> when I started in this - that simply was not an option
<_04`abi_> so what did you do instead S_W?
<MrScotdom> Internet has made available the resource of BDSM... but not the education one on one.
<S_W> I have not played with anyone in many years now that I have not had a Screw the Roses style limits list filled out before hand
<jewel`{F}> being able to match body language to what O/one is saying as well
<heart_of_gold4> yes, i do feel the way sometimes abi
<Jean__Luc> lists unfortunately would have to be redone regularly..all of our limits change..all the time
<S_W> we discussed a little - it was a brief categort style negotiation - nothing as spepcific or thorough as we do now as a matter of routine
<Jerseychick> When living with someone as Mistress/slave as a lifestyle choice, it is sometimes difficult to communicate to him when I am in Mistress mode, unless I call him b*tch, or something obvious like that.
<S_W> it has changed *everything* about limits negotiations - they simply are not the same now at all
<MrScotdom> Communication between two partners is a timeous learning experience... but what about the newbies who have no template by which to judge right or wrong?
<_04`abi_> communication needs are different at various stages of relationships MrScotdom ... what kinds of things can newbies do to ensure that they are understanding and understood?
<heart_of_gold4> thats right, need teachers to teach lol
<S_W> I've played with experienced and inexpereinced and downright virgins - the answers are different and the answer may often be preceded byu a question
<S_W> but negotiation is the same, nonetheless
<_04`abi_> what kinds of things do you negotiate S_W?
<S_W> personally - I need to know limits - and degrees of maybes
<outcastspice> yeah msot definelty.
<MrScotdom> Yes negotiation.... but the ability to communicate ones desires and needs varies from person to person. You may have a literate genius that does not know what they want.... and a deaf mute on the other hand who knows exactly what they want.... how does that affect the realm of communication now?
<heart_of_gold4> i dont agree, if you dont no how to negotiate, whats next
<outcastspice> i find it hard to negotiate when i dont know what iwant, tho.
<pandora``> i remember being a newbie only too well, and i had read very little about what was "right or wrong" i had to go on my instincts as to what i would accept
<S_W> on a Screw the Roses scale - I'll shape a first scene - most of the time - around her 4's and 5's
* `abi nods to outcastspice ... I think that sometimes part of the communication process is working through that
<outcastspice> mhm
<S_W> depends though - that's not a hard and fast rule - matter of circumstance I supose
<MrScotdom> Screw the Roses scale S_W.... what does that mean? I am not into S?M possibly you could elaborate.
<heart_of_gold4> lol
<outcastspice> Screw the Roses is a book, eh
<heart_of_gold4> me too
<outcastspice> i think He means a scale of 1 to 10.
<_04`abi_> the scale that S_W refers to exists in many formats ...it's basically just a checklist of activities
<S_W> I don't believe in right and wrong - there is a yes and no for a submissive. On the subject of negotiation - there is no point in petending "control" has past to the Dom. It has mose definitely not. It is the HEART of SSC
<MrScotdom> What does the Screw the Roses mean please?
<_04`abi_> and Screw the Roses is a book about BDSM
<MrScotdom> OK... and is it categorised as in Gor?
<outcastspice> not really
<MrScotdom> I dont understand then.
<S_W> MrScotdom - Screw the Roses is the usual intro book for SM. It has within it a sample checklist of just about all activites in the Scene. It misses a few - but precious few
<outcastspice> i actually dont think it mentioned gor
<S_W> the idea is one lists a "hard limit"
<_04`abi_> no, it isn't Gorean MrScotdom ... it's a general interest and limit checklist ...but... even early communication can't be relegated simply to a checklist
<S_W> a hard limit is NO. NO as in - do this I call the cops. I will not EVER engage in this activity
<_04`abi_> what other things do people to ensure good communication early in relationships
<MrScotdom> OK SW... I am not familiar with the S/M books... but appreciate the clarification.
<outcastspice> its worth reading
<S_W> it varies up the scale to 5 - "Yes I want this all the time"
<Like4u2cum> Screw would symbolize steel that binds. Roses delicate with thorns.
<_04Achilles{tr}_> instead of working on a broad understanding, perhaps there should also be some concern for the depth of communication? A more detailed or explicit understanding fo a smaller set of things? How is that achieved?
<MrScotdom> Intersting.... can you reccommend to all this book?
<outcastspice> i'd say youjust need to talk about everything .
<MrScotdom> It appears a good value in communicating levels of acceptance.
* `abi nods to outcastspice ... what kinds of things ... besides limits ... need to be addressed?
<outcastspice> feelings. i know one couple who every night before bed just check in to make sure feelings are ok. and if y'ure not happy, then something's wrong.s o it needs tobe discussed
<jewel`{F}> any health concerns should also be put out in the open
<outcastspice> also, i'd say wishes -- where you want the relationship to go
<MrScotdom> Wordless communication is embossed in the inflections of your partners reactions... it is a familiar or unfamiliar moan, squeak or cry....
<S_W> I would recommend Srew The Roses Send me the Thorns to everyone in the Scene - without reservation, hesitation or variation. If you only have to have ONE book - that is the one to get
<outcastspice> yup
<outcastspice> it's great
<pandora``> i definately agree there outcastspice
<outcastspice> MrScotdom, i agree -- but sometiems i'ts hard to know what those moans etc mean
<MrScotdom> Do you know the author S_W?
<outcastspice> for example, i make thesame sound for pleasure or for pain
<S_W> Molly Devon
<outcastspice> MrScotdom, any fet store has it
<outcastspice> so it's realy hard to know, unless i go verbal
<MrScotdom> Interesting.... I shall look into it...
<yummy> MrScotdom, its a bdsm classic and is for more than those into just SM - it applies to all of BDSM
* Fyre{j} agrees with the health issues ..... flogging may be an acceptable play activity, but using a horsehair flogger on someone with allergies could lead to several unforeseen problems
<outcastspice> definietly
<outcastspice> or makign someone wiht bad knees stand for a 2 hour scene
<Fyre{j}> or kneel
<outcastspice> yeah that too
<_04`abi_> let's talk a bit about non-verbal communication ... many bottoms find verbal communication difficult during scenes ... what other ways do partners use to communicate?
<S_W> using a horsehair flogger at all can lead to probs - shy of a splintered cane - its the only toy that threatens to leave pieces of itself behind in the behind :-)
<lil_kitten> tends not to be much dander left in horse hair
<outcastspice> crying is a pretty good indication of a problem
<S_W> abi - I think there are a LOT of Doms who will claim to be able to read a submissive - and to an extent that is true
<S_W> not so spice
<lil_kitten> not in all cases, spice
<outcastspice> i know
<outcastspice> yeah
<outcastspice> i was just thinking that
<_04`abi_> and to an extent untrue S_W?
<jewel`{F}> or if someone has asthma knowing the change in the breathing,, does it warrant an attack in need of an inhaler or is it just excitement?
<outcastspice> SW, yeah, true, but it comes with a lot of knowledge and time
<yummy> S_W, a Dom who knows me can read me, but if someone who hasn't met me before says he can - well i'm outa there real fast
<S_W> some submissives desire tears - for those - is not a sign of distress, but of release
<S_W> well - that's my point yummy
<_04`abi_> how do you tell the difference S_W?
<outcastspice> you gotta know the person
<S_W> in a general way - most experienced Doms will be able to tell if a sub is about to "red"
<S_W> but short of that?...
<MrScotdom> non-verbal communication is somewhat relegated to the experienced. After several months of scening with the same partner one should be able to tell exactly whats going on... with breath... vocality... skin temperament.... reaction to strikes etc... its the newbie subjects that we should be concerned with... they have no template other than the verbal to work with.
<outcastspice> yup
<S_W> that comes with expereince wit hthaat person individually. That is what makes SM very unsuitable for the one night stand
<outcastspice> esp. if hte newbie hasn't yet figured out hir limits
<yummy> MrScotdom, the newbies are important but a Dom who plays with a newbie and puts the newbie in a postion where they aren't free to speak is unsafe as a Dom
<_04`abi_> does anyone find it difficult to describe to a partner what they are feeling?... physically or emotionally? during a scene or otherwise?
<outcastspice> yes, yummy
<heart_of_gold4> yes i do
<outcastspice> most definetly abi. but i dont find it difficult to indicate extreme distress. so if nothign else, i can red now and explain why later
<jewel`{F}> even a C/couple that have been playing for months still need to discuss and set limits when trying something new
<MrScotdom> It gets pretty obvious if someone is in distress..... whether they are new or not... but its the inbetween the mediocre and the distress that is a large playing field and takes a lot of attention by the giver.
<S_W> IMO - the time to do that is not within the scene
<yummy> `abi, i'm not exactly good with words, but i use my entire body to communicate. It is MY responsibility to look out for my safety. I can't give that to a Dom - may be different for those who are collared - but I am responsible for ME
<yummy> a sub needs to realise to submit isn't an excuse to put all ones selfresponsibility on another
<S_W> quite true yummy
<_04`abi_> so communicating needs is part of that responsibility yummy?
<MrScotdom> No yummy... but a good giver will accept that responsibilty as a part of their actions.
<yummy> yes `abi as is communicating limits, where you are in a scene
<yummy> part of the communication is verbal, part is body language
<outcastspice> bbs
<yummy> MrScotdom, they may accept it but my point of view is that the sub has a responsibility for themselves
<_04`abi_> what about after a scene ... does anyone use "debriefing" as a way of communicating?
<yummy> being a submissive doesn't mean you get to be stupid and blame someone else
<MrScotdom> Bound, gagged and blindfolded..... what communication do you use now?
<yummy> hand singles
<heart_of_gold4> lol
<S_W> to an extenet this is true - and I admit this also come down to a matter of style. But there is a point where deliberate choice of "body language" communication in a scene is simply topping from the bottom
<outcastspice> grunt
<MrScotdom> Know your opponent...
<yummy> and if you are playing wiht somoene who can't read you and you agree to blind gagged and bound......well you are STUPID
<S_W> There is - IMO - a vast difference from "my hand hurts" to "I like that" and "I don't like this"
<MzDelicia> what do you mean by "debriefing" `abi?
<S_W> we negotiate extensively and use safe words (colours) to deal with these issues
<yummy> exactly S_W, asking for more or less of something in a scene is one way i have learnt to quickly get me more of what i don't like
<S_W> yes I debrief
<_04`abi_> MzDelicia ... I mean discussing a scene after the fact ... what happened, what was experienced
<S_W> (actually - the I likes I don't mind - it's the I hates that bug ME :-))
<MzDelicia> ah.....thank you....and am imperative point of growth, IMO
<Fyre{j}> debriefing is a key part of a new relationship ... almost as important as the aftercare
<yummy> lol S_W
<outcastspice> not even new, Fyre{j}. any relationshpi
<jewel`{F}> what about checking for any bruising or other problems over the next day or two after a play session?
<_04`abi_> I would suggest not just in a new relationship Fyre{j} ... even in long term ones, new things can surface in scenes
* Fyre{j} looks at jewel` ... what bruises? *wink*
<jewel`{F}> if a Dom or Domme can not do this personally do They contact the sub to check on them?
<S_W> bruising would be a problem? :-)
<yummy> i enjoy the aftercare and debriefing
<outcastspice> for some ppl, sure
* jewel`{F} smiles up at Master
<yummy> S_W, not usually for me, but all are different right?
<Jean__Luc> for others less..
<S_W> if you don't want a mark of any kind - I'd think that would be a matter for discussion beforehand - not afterwards
<_04`abi_> what about beyond the scene .... what kinds of communication issues do people have?
<Fyre{j}> I guess the point I was trying to make ... during the beginning of a relationship ..establishing rituals (not sure if debreifing is best described as a ritual) that are carried forward throughout the relationship
<outcastspice> most definetly SW. but it's still part of communication.
<MzDelicia> even if scenes are just with casual play partners & not necessarily within a "relationship" my thought is that debriefing is more a common sense kinda thang....out of respect for another human being
<_04Achilles{tr}_> Do you mean at the end of a scene or outside of scenes in general abi?
<outcastspice> i agree, Fyre{j}. rituals rock.
<_04`abi_> outside of scening in general Achilles{tr}
<jewel`{F}> S_W but to check for unwanted or severe bruising is still a good thing is it not?
<Jean__Luc> one of the biggest communication problems in the 'scene' in general..are right here .. on the internet..mailing lists, etc.. the fact that people don't take the time to listen..or to try to understand and respect each other
<outcastspice> yeah, or unexpected and unusual marks left months after the scene... he hehe
<S_W> well of course - asking someone how they are - espcially if there is an emotional crash is important
<outcastspice> yup
<_04`abi_> what kinds of problems does that cause Jean__Luc?
<S_W> a bruised bottom is a trival thing compared to a bruised heart
<outcastspice> i agree, SW
<outcastspice> hello Max
<jewel`{F}> or at the time cuffs may not have felt too tight but the next day there may be bruising that was not expected
<Jean__Luc> havoc? pain and suffering..needlessly..and usually..without concent
* `abi nods to Jean__Luc ... so how do we avoid it ... what kinds of things do we need to talk about?
<Jean__Luc> dunno..someone asked a question..i just put out a thought..don't ask me.. I have no answers..
<Jean__Luc> just questions..
<_04`abi_> maybe that's a good place to begin Jean__Luc :)
<_04`abi_> I think that many times there is the perception that Tops don't ask questions
<_04`abi_> of their bottoms or of themselves
<Jean__Luc> well..let's ask this one..
<outcastspice> yes, lets!
<Jean__Luc> Respect.. is it earned or given and taken back if required?
<outcastspice> it must be earned to be given truly, IMO
<Jean__Luc> You see the arguments between the old guard and the new guard..
<Dragonchaserfs> if the subbie dont like it then the subbie should say so ..
<S_W> earned, (and taken back)
<_04`abi_> well, let's link it to the topic ... how is respect communicated?
<Jean__Luc> ok..maybe not the 'I will submit to you respect'..but the I accept you as an equal respect?
<MzDelicia> true, `abi.....egos/pride usurp logical reasoning sometimes with Tops/Dom/mes and by submissive nature alone, subs/bottoms tend to be reserved in communications at times also
<outcastspice> or my submission is accepted with respect and as a sign of respect
<Kemtar> oh sure leave to abi to bring the conversation back on topic
<_04`abi_> what kinds of things demonstrate that your submission is being accepted with respect outcastspice?
<Jean__Luc> Well..I respect your opinions..but..I will say..that respect is to be given to everyone..immediately..and then taken back if required..
<Dragonchaserfs> respect from the Dom/e is given by taking care of that which has been offered to their care
<Like4u2cum> Through devotion and obedience on the part of the sub. Understanding and acting responsibly on the part of the Dom/me is somewhat how respect is shown.
<Kemtar> MzDelicia egos/pride usurp all human beings of their common sense and logic at times
<Jean__Luc> To me..being able to respect someone whether they be top/sub/etc.. is required to have a good 'scene'.. and thus..let me respect everyone..unless they don't deserv to be..
<outcastspice> hmm JL, i'd say a ceratin degree of respect, yes. but i respect some ppl more b/c i know they earned a high level of it
<_04`abi_> does ego/pride get in the way of good communication?
<Kemtar> often
<Jean__Luc> somehow..our seen..seems now about alot of 'earn' the respect..I think..maybe..that hurts our communication with each other
<_04`abi_> how so Jean__Luc?
<_03kneels_> what type of respect Jean__Luc? i may give general respect to everyone i meet even in the vanilla world that i wont be rude to them.....but i dont automattically give respect to any Dom ...or even consider them a Dom...i mean they arent MY Dom
<MzDelicia> true Jean__Luc.....but as with most aspects of the lifestyle, even communication skills (or lack thereof) can be held to the extremer (is that a word??) level
<_03kneels_> learns to spell....gheesh
<Jean__Luc> absolutelly..there are levels of respect..
<Kemtar> but what happened to submission being a gift????? If I must earn it...it isn't a gift it is owed to me...no mater how you communicate it
* `abi smiles to MzDelicia ... why are they extremelier important?
<shadoe{S}> heh.. am i in the right spot?
<Jean__Luc> is submission a gift? Or is it part of a fantasy/a choice/a way of being?
<outcastspice> sure you are, shadoe{S}!
<outcastspice> way of being. and gift.
<outcastspice> i give my submission ot those who deserve it.
<MzDelicia> because, dear `abi (sheepisher smirk) communication needs to be the crux of making our lifestyle work SSC'ly
<_04`abi_> well, it may or may not be a gift Jean__Luc ... but how do we communicate that gift or whatever it is?
<Jean__Luc> Does this mean if I choose to be a NHL hockey player I am giving my hockey team a gift? Or does it mean I am excercising what I want?
<outcastspice> both
<lil_kitten> submission isn't "owed" - anyone who thinks that needs a head check
<outcastspice> yup
<shadoe{S}> submission isnt a gift.. it is a state of being.. a mind set.. something a person who is submissive has no control of..
<Dragonchaserfs> drink about two shots of the coniac and you wont need the wine
<outcastspice> cognac
<_03kneels_> it means you have made a choice to play hockey...and hopefully you will work as a team so that it is the best team and exchange of ideas there can be
<Dragonchaserfs> thanks
<outcastspice> yw
<_04`abi_> but what they do have control of is how they communicate that submission shado ... or indeed whether they communicate it
<shadoe{S}> and it is very hard for someone of that nature not to submit.. it's hard to hold it back.. even when you know it's going to the wrong place
<lil_kitten> well - if it was simply a state of being, subs would be submissive to everyone, including the assholes out there who would take advantage of them
<Kemtar> but should professional hockey players play in the Olympics and how do we communicate that to them
<_03kneels_> oh....i dont have a hard time not being submissive to the wrong people shadoe{S}
<outcastspice> oh dear
<shadoe{S}> no.. that's wrong lil kitten.. we arent submissive to everyone.. for the very reason that we understand who we are and what we are.. and try to direct it where it needs to go.. and because of that need to control .. it throws us off even more
<outcastspice> she knows that
<lil_kitten> but you just said "a person who is submissive has no control of"
<shadoe{S}> let me try to explain.. we are submissive.. we cant submit to just anyone.. but our nature makes it difficult to control that
<_04`abi_> okay...we have about 10 minutes left ... let's try to steer back to the topic ... what's the one thing think is the most important to communicate to your partner?
<outcastspice> love
<outcastspice> *grins*
<lil_kitten> If someone can't control their own urge to submit to the *right person* then they're in big trouble
<Like4u2cum> A submissive chooses who he/she will and will not submit to. When it is offered, it is offered as a gift to whom he/she wishes trusts and wishes to have that authority over him/her. Wouldn't you agree shadoe{s}?
<shadoe{S}> ooops.. sorry abi
<heart_of_gold4> i agree lol
<_04`abi_> love
<_04`abi_> anything else?
<Fyre{j}> nope
<Fyre{j}> *wink*
<_04Achilles{tr}_> Safety.
<Jean__Luc> communication is Honesty.. say it to yourself., your top..and everyone else
<outcastspice> JL, honesty is so key!! yeah.
<shadoe{S}> a submissive nature is one of submission.. there's a lot of things in life that can trigger it.. and it's damn hard to resist the urge
<_04`abi_> knowing it and communicating it aren't always the same thing Jean__Luc
<_04`abi_> some things aren't so easy to say
* shadoe{S} agrees with abi
<S_W> and some things should not necessarily be said
<Jean__Luc> sometimes.. :)
<Kemtar> go on shadoe{S} I think that is an excellent point
<S_W> and learning what those things are takes a lifetime to figure out
<_03kneels_> well that is a good point abi....i find it difficult to express my needs sometimes...since to be submissive...the mindset is that it isnt about me...if i need something i have a hard time to say it
<jewel`{F}> if you can't say them verbally in person then sometimes writing them out can help
<_04`abi_> so what do you do kneels?
<outcastspice> writingis very important.
<Jean__Luc> yes..
<Kemtar> scream and stomp her feet?
<_04`abi_> do many people use journals as communication tools?
<Jean__Luc> writting is very very important..
<outcastspice> hehe
* rhiannon{KO} puts her hand up, every night for the last year..
<shadoe{S}> why is it that most people believe because they are submissive they suddenly have no voice?
<jewel`{F}> maybe not a journal but even letters
<shadoe{S}> has it occured to anyone that THAT might drive a dominant crazy?
<Kemtar> or are journals just a way to get intouch with your gift?
<shadoe{S}> it implies that submissives have no mind.. when in fact they do... good minds..
<heart_of_gold4> i can communicate very well except for my submission, very vulnerable part of myself
<Jean__Luc> ok..claudia is tickling me away from the cpu..argh.. now I gots to teach this girl a little lesson
<Jean__Luc> thanks all folks..
<shadoe{S}> and maybe dominants would appreciate their minds
<_03kneels_> well....actually...a few times i let it go to long until i am very frustrated in my submission..the first time i began to act out until things came to a very unpleasant head.....i still let it go until i am really frustrated....but it comes out eventually and i express it....it just takes alot before i will say anything
<outcastspice> lucky claudia!
<_10rhiannon{KO}_> i do it because Master allows me free speach, i can say anything in it with out fear of punishment.
<outcastspice> seems reasonable
* Achilles{tr} asks rhiannon{KO} if He can write a few things in there sometime.
<outcastspice> why woiuld he want you if he doesnt know who you are?
<_10rhiannon{KO}_> sure Achilles{tr}...lol..
<mary^magdelene> why should someone be punished for expressing their feelings?
<outcastspice> yup.
* Kilted_One snikkers and thinks that rhiannon meant "retrobution" no punishment
<Dragonchaserfs> when firestar dosnt talk if frustrates me .. sometimes she wont say stop or tell me what she is feeling ..then I find out later and it makes me pull back the next time because I dont really know what she is saying
<Kilted_One> and yes Achilles{tr} I have made several small comments from time to time in it.
<_10rhiannon{KO}_> well mary^magdelene, sometimes i need to just "vent". i express my feelings verbaly and by writting. however my journal lets me do it without holding back.
<jewel`{F}> i don't think it is so much expressing ones feelings in general but as to when & where those feelings are expressed that one could be disciplined for
<Kilted_One> I also sigh it each night as proof that it was read by myself
<Kilted_One> sigh=sign
<shadoe{S}> KO.. that's good..
<_04Achilles{tr}_> How about writing projects? Write your fave fantasy orgive Me an analysis of a scene W/we saw at the last PP?
<_10rhiannon{KO}_> my journal is very two sided. otherwise i don't think i would write in it every night.
<_04Achilles{tr}_> Compare Your perceptions with theirs?
<shadoe{S}> if i thought my words werent' read.. i'd get discouraged.. which is part of the previous relationship.. he never read about 'me'
<Kilted_One> Indeed Achilles{tr}, there are several projects in there
* `abi smiles...well ... before everyone runs off to write in their journals ... I'd like to thank everyone for joining our discussion tonight
<mary^magdelene> i understand rhiannon{KO} but just because someone is submissive does not mean they cannot express their feelings, unless of course it is inappropriately...and i use a journal as well..have done so for about 6 years
<_04`abi_> I'm going to close the log now, but please feel free to continue your discussion