February 8, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "What is D/s and Why is it Different from BDSM?". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i think D/s is a part of BDSM
<naughtyvickie> doesn't the DS in BDSM stand for D/s?
<_dove> to my knowledge, yes
<MDD> I agree with sassy, the art of BDSM tends to encompass such a large territory that D/s fit inside it
<FatherMax> No it doesn't
<Guest39703> bondage disipline sadism masochism,isnt it?
<victoria_angel> D/s can also be personality types
<spirited_sassy{CP}> can you explain why FatherMax?
<FatherMax> yes Guest39703
<FatherMax> D/s is a lifestyle choice, bdsm is play or kink
<FatherMax> big difference
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> B=bondage.D=disaplain.S=Sadist.M=Masochist is what i've been told
<FatherMax> well Sadism, and Masocism,
<MasterGuny> it is sultry_spirit{OAK}
<_dove> There are some that say that the DS also stands for Dominance / submission, in addition to those
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> yes _dove true *smile*
<naughtyvickie> that is what i was told
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i agree D/s is a lifestyle
<Omy> It is six words
<victoria_angel> D/s can also be personality types, as in there can be a dominant or submissive in a vanilla life
<Omy> BD=bondage Discipline
<Omy> DS = Domination / submission
<`abi> also bondage/discipline/dominance/sadism/submission/masochism
<Omy> SM = Sadist / Masochist
<FatherMax> i dont think acronyms have 6 words for 4 letters
<spirited_sassy{CP}> but i don't live a bdsm lifesyle....my kink is bdsm
<`abi> in this case it does Max
<FatherMax> BDSM has never had anything to do with D/S
<`abi> yes, it does .. if two of those letters stand for Dominance and submission
<FatherMax> you can certainly be a top and bottom and experience BDMS, without D/s
<`abi> it is an all-encompassing acronym for the many ways that there are to incorporate these concepts into one's life
<naughtyvickie> bondage discipline sadism and masochism ........how can you have all that without one being Dominant and the other being submissive?
<FatherMax> as D/s couples do not have to be involved in BDSM and many arnt
<victoria_angel> agreed FM
<FatherMax> well you cant change an acronym to suit your needs or purposes
<`abi> it does not mean that you must embrace all six concepts
<`abi> think of it as a buffet
<FatherMax> i think its a very popular misconception
<victoria_angel> good one abi
<FatherMax> which i believe confuses alot of people
<`abi> and within each of those six concepts are alot of 'sidedishes"
* AndrewDom likes the metaphor
<FatherMax> oh abi, please
<AndrewDom> mmmm
* AndrewDom is gettin hungry
<`abi> it is confusing Max because it is not as simplistic as you are fond of making most things
<FatherMax> so then your saying that all folks who are BDSM are D/s
<`abi> no, I"m not
<_dove> no, absolutely not
<`abi> I'm saying that they can be any combination of those six things
<FatherMax> then all folks that are D/s are into BDSM
<FatherMax> but then is should be BDSMDS
<FatherMax> but its not
<`abi> no ... they can be any combination of those 6 things
<FatherMax> no one ever simplifies an acronym
<`abi> it is BDSM because most people are capable of seeing that one letter can stand for more than one word
<AndrewDom> in different quantities and with different 'weightings' of each
<`abi> hence making BDDSSM redundant
<`abi> and subject to changeable quantities and weightings AndrewDom
<Omy> I don;t agree FatherMax..you can have Ds without BDSM but not SM without Ds
<`abi> one can gain quite alot of weight from a good appetizer ;)
<Guest39703> not all that are into D/s are into BDSM,but all in BDSM are by definition either Dominant or submissive
<_dove> perhaps for a specific period of time, Guest39703
<spirited_sassy{CP}> there are tops and bottoms in bdsm
<spirited_sassy{CP}> and not in D/s
<`abi> not always Guest ... most people have some combination of the two ...to greater or lesser degrees at different times of their lives ... or their days
<FatherMax> well if that is the case Guest39703, then one cannot play, or be into bondage or discipline without being either a Dominant or submissive, which defies the top or bottom or folks who just like to play
<FatherMax> there is not point in having a discussion if all we have to do is re-define what BDSM is and D/s is to our liking
<FatherMax> and sadly enought so many do
<_dove> FatherMax, could you perhaps offer your definition of D/s? i understand where you are coming from on the bdsm side
<`abi> well, we could save time and redefine it to your liking Max, but that wouldn't be much of a discussion either
<victoria_angel> personally i consider bdsm as the 'play part' of a D/s relationship
<spirited_sassy{CP}> me too victoria_angel
<victoria_angel> i live 's'
<victoria_angel> i play 'bdsm'
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i live 's' too
<_dove> i do too v_a, but i also acknowledge that some see the play part as being all they want
<MDD> so what your saying then Max, is a D/s relationship can only exist outside BDSM?
<SirGriz> I would disagree with that last remark
<victoria_angel> yes dove- there are some who like the 'sadistic', etc.... and aren't in a D/s life style
<victoria_angel> that is ok
<victoria_angel> there is nothing wrong with that
<victoria_angel> it is like getting off on being tattoo'd or pierced
<aurelle> i would think that D/s is like a big chocolate cake and bdsm is just the ice cream that adds to it
<victoria_angel> you don't have to be Dom/me or sub
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> what would you concerder the sadistic one victoria_angel?.. D or s?
<_dove> in my case - and it's personal - the bdsm play is an expression of D/s
<Omy> Ds is about power exchange...SM is about sensation...and you can't have SM without some level of Ds
<victoria_angel> lets say, this, i've met people who live for pain
<victoria_angel> that is not the same as a sub who submits to pain
<aurelle> that makes sense
<private_beauty{CP}> why not Omy?
<aurelle> but you can have D/s without the sm
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i have known some submissives to be sadistic
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> to submit to anything is a way of submission victoria_angel
<Omy> Because the sub has to give consent to the play..she has to give over control..even for a small period of time
<victoria_angel> but again, a person who enjoys pain isn't submissie
<private_beauty{CP}> what if i just get off on being whipped but don't consider myself a sub?
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> if someone lives or pain , then that person is submitting to it..
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> or=for
<victoria_angel> to pain, yes
<victoria_angel> but not to a 'person'
<FatherMax> well if someone is into pain, then they would be masocistic, not neccessarily submissive
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> but she or he is submitting...but how would they get the pain .. victoria_angel if not someone giving it to them?
<Omy> even if yuo get off on beign whipped..you still have to give consent to that happening
<victoria_angel> self induced
<_dove> a bottom gives up control for the duration of a scene........ some distinguish between that and submitting
<FatherMax> you dont have to be submissive to give consent
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> but doesn't a masocistic has to submit somehow or someway to receive this pain?
<private_beauty{CP}> ok Omy Sir then in that case who is the sub?? the person who submits to the whipping or the person who sumbits to do said whipping?
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> then if it's self induced.. no offence to anyone here.. but it's more of an issue then..
<`abi> I have personally seen some very Dominant bottoms
<`abi> and some very submissive Tops
<Omy> The person that submits to beign whipped
<victoria_angel> anyone ever see a show where these guys hang from self inflicted nails - that is what i consider self-uinflicted pain
<MDD> i agree there abi
<victoria_angel> sorry, but they chose that
<aurelle> so this is a debate between whether being masochistic means being submissive or not.........What is D/s?
<victoria_angel> they are submitting to them selves
<`abi> we all submit to ourselves first victoria_angel
<Omy> The Dominant doing the whipping is honoring the subs limits
<FatherMax> D/s is a lifestyle choice
<aurelle> we are on a completely different topic...
<FatherMax> BDSM is play
<private_beauty{CP}> so then Omy Sir you don't recongnize tops and bottoms?
<aurelle> FM can you elaborate on D/s?
<Omy> No FatherMax, BDSM is a way of life for me..how I show love
<private_beauty{CP}> those who just enjoy the pain
<Omy> yes I do private_beauty{CP}
<aurelle> BDSM is a means of behaving then Omy?
<Omy> But not in a Ds context..in a sensation play conteaxt
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> that's all mind control victoria_angel.. a state of mine to control the pain.. does he live for it.. my personal opinion is no... get's a couple of bucks for it.. kinda like a trick.. but it's totally different
<victoria_angel> i agree
<private_beauty{CP}> but for some there is no eleiment of D or s
<Omy> In my particular take on the lifestyle aurelle, yes it is
<aurelle> that makes sense, and D/s is a way of living?
<FatherMax> D/s is the power exchange, its the relationship between
<aurelle> and BDSM is behaviour, actions
<FatherMax> BDSM is the pleasure factors which occur, ie, bondage, whipping
<Mzz_Eva> icing on the cake
<Omy> yes aurelle a way of living that has been around for hundreds of years.
* aurelle nods
<aurelle> and can you elaborate on what this way of living involves?
<aurelle> what it means to the participants?
<Omy> It means different things to different folks. My take on it as a high protocol Dom are different then many in the room
<tatienna> hello all
<Omy> The relationship is essesntially whatever the two consenting adukts chose to make it
<aurelle> well we can get both perspectives
<aurelle> i agree
<aurelle> and as a Dominant ... what does this way of live provide for you
<aurelle> life
<Omy> A way to live
<aurelle> how is it different, what exactly is this way of life?
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> that's like asking aurelle.. why does a sub.. submit.. it's her way..
<aurelle> yes, but this is the discussion...what is it?
<naughtyvickie> would there be pleasure in that for either if one wasn't Dominant and one wasn't submissive
<Omy> My partner and I set up a set of protocols and agreements on how our relationship will progress.. Always keeping in mind Trust, Open and Honest Communication, respect, and of course Consent
<private_beauty{CP}> but sultry_spirit{OAK} what makes it her way?
<aurelle> is it a power exchange between two people, a combination that empowers both individuals ?
<Omy> Are you looking for examples aurelle?
<victoria_angel> v_a_away
<Omy> Yes aurelle, both are empowered
<aurelle> no im looking for a definition, a meaning
<Omy> Are you familar with the Victoriam era or life in the 1950's aurelle?
<aurelle> yes
<sassy_one{CP}> what meaning are you looking for aurelle?
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> depending who she is, private_beauty{CP}, she maybe born submissive, her up bringing,.. it's a part of her.. her character.. some are made to lead, some are to follow.. it's the same but in a different content.. right?
<aurelle> im just trying to get a discussion going folks
<aurelle> i have my ideas of what bdsm is
<Omy> The way that women looked after their man in those eras has many similarities to Ds today
<aurelle> i agree
<private_beauty{CP}> but Omy Sir that was no bdsm
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> D/s is just turning back the clock some.. as most of O/our parents lived... the old fashion way
<Omy> Was it private_beauty{CP}?
<Omy> It wasn't called BDSM
<`abi> with one significant difference ... they did not do so by choice
<sassy_one{CP}> no D/s is a choice.....back in the 50's it was not a choice
<Omy> You think so abi?
<`abi> yes, I absolutely think so Omy
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> not a choice but a way of life...
<blue````> choice or a need for some?
<`abi> cultural expectations are considerably different than choosing a lifestyle by choice
<Omy> My mother did waht she did consentually...never begrudged my father
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> that's how one was raised.. a girl to be the best wife.. a man to take care of his wife
<sassy_one{CP}> i agree `abi
<Omy> Okay..on that basis abi..I would have to agree
<aurelle> in D/s, i feel i am free to be gentle, humble and giving.... i know my place in the (my) world, and that is empowering...and it is empowering to the Other when i give over control, and focus on serving that person and meeting their needs/desires/expectations
<`abi> which is still different than making a conscious choice to do Omy ... and her rewards and satisfactions were likely significantly different
<aurelle> its a chosen way of life
<private_beauty{CP}> no Sir though it may have been in many ways similar to what we think of as a D/s lifestyle i doubt there were many other similarities
<private_beauty{CP}> choice being the biggest difference
<sassy_one{CP}> agreed
<kw_brit> There are many women who chose to serve & look after their man without even being aware of choice. They do it because they feel they must.
<sassy_one{CP}> my mother didn't have a choice...it was expected
<Omy> There is truth in that abi..I guess my issue is that to say it wasn't consentual means they were forced..and they weren't...its a fine loine..shade of grey. But there was as many women happy as there was unhappy
<aurelle> i feel safe in giving over, protected in doing so, and humbled in taking a position of less power...its freeing
<Omy> true kw_brit
<`abi> there are also some significant differences in how those Victorian women lived.... in fact, many of them were responsible for 'running households'...supervising staff
<`abi> they were in fact quite Dominant in many ways
<`abi> within their households
<aurelle> agreed
<Omy> I agree aurelle...freedom is an often stated attraction by submissives
<`abi> and they weren't likley very sexually submissive either ... birth control not being invented and small families being in vogue
<Omy> and I still believe that can be the case in a Ds household abi
<aurelle> well i have only begun experiencing D/s and this is an opportunity for me to see if others feel the way i feel
<kw_brit> My significant other does these things ,but not through being in a D/s setup. She does it because of bad mental scarring from an abusive ex husband. In other words she is almost conditioned to 'behave' and care for others and the home tec.
<aurelle> am i doing this for the right reasons? is this the desired effect for others? etc
<Omy> Only you can determine if it is right for you aurelle
<`abi> bingo aurelle....it is really about making choices which meet your needs
<kw_brit> I would say do it because you want to try it. Not for anyone else - but just to add colour to the tapestry of your existence
<`abi> or to add tapestry to the colour of your life kw_brit ;)
<Omy> :)
<kw_brit> Indeed abi
<private_beauty{CP}> i am submissive by nature my partner is Dominate by nature we choose to live a lifestyle which allows us to be who we are
<private_beauty{CP}> we both enjoy bdsm
<aurelle> i do it because i have never felt so comfortable than when i am serving someone else
<Omy> well said private_beauty{CP}
<aurelle> so=more
<sassy_one{CP}> very well said private_beauty{CP}
<aurelle> one person i spoke with likened it to "coming home"
<aurelle> and i think that hit the nail on the head
<sassy_one{CP}> i am also submissive by nature and feel comfortable in my life as a submissive
<kw_brit> I'm just a kinky bugger and enjoy everything and anything I can. ;)
<sassy_one{CP}> i live a D/s lifestyle but do not always get bdsm
* chimera{D} nods
<kimochi> there's nothing wrong with enjoying kink in general
<private_beauty{CP}> if i was never flogged again i would still be submissive
<kimochi> but D/s is about applying rules to that enjoyment
<chimera{D}> as do i sassy_one{CP} , Master and i live a D/s lifestyle and live as Master and slave
<kw_brit> True kimochi
<chimera{D}> it is very rare that we par take in BDSM
<chimera{D}> maybe 7 or 8 times a year
<sassy_one{CP}> real life gets in the way of bdsm but we always live the D/s
<chimera{D}> it is more about the power exchange and how we have chosen to live our lives together
<kimochi> i think it's that love of rules... and order that makes D/s different
* chimera{D} nods
<kimochi> i also think that "partaking" in BDSM happens more often than perhaps we realize
<kimochi> since it isn't always about whips, chains, leather (dare i say)
<chimera{D}> BDSM isnt Masters desires, however i do like it and am a pain slut , so Master allows for that a few times a year to help satisfy my need for it
<kimochi> it's about all that that goes on within
<naughtyvickie> so can you have one without the other?
<sassy_one{CP}> yes you can
<aurelle> yes
<chimera{D}> but we never step out of our roles of M/s or D/s as that is who and what we are... at all times
<sassy_one{CP}> you can have D/s without BDSM
<chimera{D}> yes.. you can
<DarkAngel^> sassy_one{CP} ,,, a PM pls ?
<kimochi> i'm in bondage whether i'm tied up or not
<sassy_one{CP}> ok
<kimochi> so it seems like splitting hairs in that respect to try to figure out if one goes without the other
<aurelle> well said kimochi
* blue```` agrees
<`abi> but for some people there are very clear distinctions kimochi
<Omy> I disagree kimochi
<`abi> I know people who are very submissive within their own power-exchange relationship, but really enjoy wailing away on someone else's ass
<kimochi> that goes along with what i said, abi
<chimera{D}> well for instance kimochi ... i live in alberta, and there is a trend right up the west coast ... not everyone now mind you.. including MAster and i
<_dove> that is true abi
<`abi> or people who have no desire to be in any kind of bondage, mental or physical ... who quite enjoy being hurt
<Omy> Power exchange and senation play are differnt. If you consent to do somrthing, you are transferring control
<chimera{D}> but ppl have playtimes, they are spanked, even switch partners at play parties, but when they go home... they do not live any type of D/s lifestyle
<kimochi> is not "enjoyment of being hurt" one form of bondage in itself?
<chimera{D}> yet they are excepted as kinksters and into BDSM
<chimera{D}> because they walk the walk, and wear the "clothes" and show up to all of the parties
<`abi> no more than enjoying a good piece of chocolate
<victoria_angel> abi has a sweet tooth tonight - wink
<kimochi> bdsm describes a spectrum of practices... ropes, role-playing etc.
<chimera{D}> so, really it isnt splitting hairs... there are many different people into this type of lifestyle and we all live is quite differently
<kimochi> D/s describes a way of applying those practices
* Omy nods to kimochi
<kw_brit> Different faces of the same dice.
<Mzz_Eva> choice... by the individuals
<kw_brit> Or die I believe
<_dove> kimochi - i learned D/s before i was every introduced to bdsm play
<`abi> what does double sixes get me brit?
<kw_brit> anything you want my darling!
* `abi smiles
<kimochi> D/s is like the air we breathe, BDSM is like the snorkel
<Omy> We are coming up close to the end of the discussion..any last thoughts?
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<chimera{D}> guess not
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> it's all an individual need, desire, choise... it's what Y/you make it
<kw_brit> So is life
<Omy> To me, DS is the center of BDSM. Everythign else revolves around it.
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> yup!
<`abi> Yes, do not let *anyone* tell you what your BDSM should look like
<`abi> or your S/m or your D/s
<kimochi> ecept your Mistress
<Omy> or Master ;)
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> perhaps.. ;)
<`abi> respectfully kimochi and Omy ... not even them ....
<_dove> It's all about what works between the people involved.......... both the beauty and curse of this lifestyle
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> LOL
<Mzz_Eva> BDSM is what you make it... your choice of what you apply to your life or not
* kimochi tries telling Mistress what her BDSM should look like ... OW
<`abi> if you have a different idea of what it should look like than they do ... then you shouldn't be with them,but you also shouldn't be letting them tell you what your BDSM should look like
<Omy> 1Laughing 140ut 1Loud now that I think of it..your right abi..
<`abi> it happens on occassion Omy ;)
<kw_brit> very deep & meaningful there abi.
<kimochi> "love is but discovery"...
* Omy looks at abi and chuckles
<kimochi> and I've lost my compass
<Omy> Well thank you folks...most interesting discussion.
<sultry_spirit{OAK}> just follow what you feel kimochi.. it will get you back on track *smile*
<Omy> Be well all and have a great week.
* kimochi grins
<naughtyvickie> You too Omy
<kimochi> actually, i have a compass truth be told
<Omy> Those that can't hear the music, think those that dance insane.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.