February 4 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> It's 9 pm, and time for our weekly discussion
<Grizzly_AL> hi Bernie
* dalian kneels in her corner and listens
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message on the channel that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Consensual Embarrassment and Humiliation". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> As most of you know, we're working through the last few topics on our list, ones that were suggested a while back but which nobody stepped forward to moderate.
<BernieRoehl> This is actually the second time the topic of humiliation has been discussed, but this time there's a slightly different spin on it.
<`abi> hi Al
<BernieRoehl> The idea here is that embarrassment and (taken a bit further...) humiliation can be exciting for the submissive, and a very positive experience overall
<BernieRoehl> So... first things first. What do people consider "embarrassing"?
* dalian isn't sure that she would agree on that ;)
<Grizzly_AL> well Bernie kittn is embarrassed when i show her pics i take of her around but she is excited too by me doing that
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, Al -- good example
<dalian> embarrassing is something that would make me feel like a complete idiot and want to bury my head somewhere
<Grizzly_AL> it is funny we were acatuly talking about that the other day
<BernieRoehl> In fact, I remember talking to kittn at the DSSG munch, and looking at pictures of her. It was obviously embarrassing for her, but in a good way.
<Grizzly_AL> yep she loves that when i do that and she has a great blush when i do
<BernieRoehl> And mixed in with that blushing is probably some pleasure and arousal, true?
<Grizzly_AL> one time i want to get a good pic of a full body blush on her
<Grizzly_AL> verry mucn
<Grizzly_AL> much that is
* BernieRoehl nods
<Grizzly_AL> she can tell you how she feels when she comes in
<BernieRoehl> Looking forward to taht, Al :-)
<BernieRoehl> For some people, it's sort of like the way pain works. The right kind of pain, administered in the right way and for the right reasons, can be a source of pleasure and arousal for the submissive. The same can be true of acute embarrassment or humiliation.
<BraveHeart2{b}> I have to say I think it would depend on what type of humiliation is performed as to what reactions one gets.
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i don't embarrass easy not in a positive way
<BraveHeart2{b}> some would obviously be positive and others could really be a turnoff
<BernieRoehl> Hello there kittn -- we were just talking about you. :-)
<kittn{AF}> so i heard...
<BernieRoehl> Right, BraveHeart2 -- just as some submissive like thud while others like sting
<kittn{AF}> i came to talk on my behalf.. what was being said ?
<dalian> perhaps that level would be determined by "who" is directing the embarrassment
<Grizzly_AL> that is true dalian
<kittn{AF}> and who you're being embarassed in front of
<BernieRoehl> The example that's been mentioned, kittn, is when your Master shows naked pictures of you to people. How does that make you feel?
<Grizzly_AL> you would get difrent reactions by difrent ppl trying to direct it
<kittn{AF}> depends on who he shows them to
<BernieRoehl> Well, as I recall he was showing them to people at the munch you were at
<Grizzly_AL> say to Bernie like i did at the munch that time
<kittn{AF}> i know that showing them to ppl in this comunity and at the munches turns me on
<BernieRoehl> Does it make a difference to you whether it's someone you know, or a stranger? (assuming they're in the community)
<kittn{AF}> but if they were shown to ppl i don't know i would just be mortified
<kittn{AF}> definitly
<BraveHeart2{b}> are we having a discussion tonight?
<Srdkside> even if they were lifestylers?
<BernieRoehl> Yup -- it's on embarrassment and humiliation
<Grizzly_AL> i think with kittn it would realy depend on if i know the person i show the pics to
* dalian would be horrified period...but that's just me...lol
<Grizzly_AL> why dalian you are pretty and sexy
<kittn{AF}> i know that membersof the comunity especially the ones i meet at the munches are ones that i can respect and that will apreciate the aspect of my humilitation and my blushes and that they tease me cause they know i don't entirely object to it
* autumn`breeze{JFC} agrees with dalian
<kittn{AF}> but anyone who didn't really know me i would want to just run and hide
<BernieRoehl> And does the teasing heighten it for you, kittn?
<kittn{AF}> you yourself BernieRoehl have seen that it makes me blush more...
<kittn{AF}> it deepens it and makes me squirm a little more...
* BernieRoehl nods
<Grizzly_AL> like showing you the dimples shot Bernie and her reaction
<BernieRoehl> So that's an example where embarrassment/humiliation play can work quite nicely. Can anyone else offer some examples?
<kittn{AF}> but i trust that if i was truely uncomfortable with it that the subject would be dropped
<kittn{AF}> *blushes not the dimples Sir please
* BernieRoehl remembers the dimple shot :-)
<kittn{AF}> *blushes more*
* BernieRoehl smiles
* kittn{AF} points to self .. perfect example
* autumn`breeze{JFC} can thinks of alot the humiliation that is a turnoff
<BraveHeart2{b}> for sure some things turn me off very much.
<nimeesha{JFC}> oh and what are they breeze???
<bottoms_up38> when i am asked if i am into humiliation... i say no. But when a new Dom hears i will kneel in public or ask to go pee (quietly).. they say that is humiliation *Grin*
<Stevius> does spanking contain an element of embarrasement and humiliation?
<bottoms_up38> if i dont feel humiliated.. which is a negative term to me.. i am not 'into' humiliation ;)
<BernieRoehl> For some it is, bottoms
<kittn{AF}> what defines humilliation is different with each person
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> subbies who hog the bed!
<kittn{AF}> *blushes more*
<bottoms_up38> agreed Bernie.. so it isnt the action.. it is the reaction or feeling
<Srdkside> the other day I had angel serve drinks and munchies to an old vanilla friend of mine....naked....she was very humiliated and talking about it later said it wouldn't have been as bad had it been another dom that she had never met
<nimeesha{JFC}> lol
<BraveHeart2{b}> I don't know if they would be classed as humiliation bottoms!
* kittn{AF} tries to look around innocently... bed hogs? who would they be?
<BraveHeart2{b}> well that case is humiliation but in a sexy kind of way.
<BernieRoehl> Spanking is actually a good example -- certainly for some submissives the idea of being taken over someone's knee and spanked can be embarrassing, especially if it's done in front of others, but it's the right *kind* of embarrassment
<bottoms_up38> if you feel humiliated and it is a positive feeling... you are into humilation. if you dont feel humiliated by an act that is considered humliating to another... you are not into humilation.
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> verbal humiliation is bad for me
<BraveHeart2{b}> ah yes indeed it is Bernie
<Grizzly_AL> Srdkside i think that if it is someone else that lives the life style that subs are a bit more conftubrle with it
<Srdkside> I agree
* kittn{AF} feels like running and hiding when lifestyle stuff is brought up by Master to non-lifestylers
<Stevius> so Srdkside, how did that incident go over with your sub...would you say it was 'good' humiliation?
<BraveHeart2{b}> simplest form of humiliation is to talk down to someone in front of others but very seldom a turnon
<kittn{AF}> i guess it depends on how they are being talked down.. like what kind of words and phrases are being used
<Srdkside> depends on which side you are looking at I suppose...for me, yes....for angel, no
<BraveHeart2{b}> to some extent yes I agree
<bottoms_up38> it is the reaction that is the biggest measurement... not the action. We all judge things differently as to what is humiliating.
<BernieRoehl> Excellent point, bottoms
<kittn{AF}> it's like a fine line between demeaning the person or insulting them
* dalian agrees with bottoms
<BraveHeart2{b}> ah now we are getting somewhere
<dalian> and depends on what the perception of the actual purpose the Dom has for doing it
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> demeaning and insulting are both put downs and turn offs
<bottoms_up38> somehow the word humiliation turns me off... anyone have a dictionary? it IS a negative term, yes? *grin*
<Srdkside> exactly....it could be obedience
<BraveHeart2{b}> yes it is bottoms
<`abi> no....humiliation and obedience are not the same thing
<Lancaster``> i have a question ???? for a new person who wishes to be a submissive she must face a lot of humiliation ,, everything is new
<Grizzly_AL> i feel when you are useing any from of embersement you are looking for a good reaction from the sub and if you know your sub well you will know what will work and what wont
<BraveHeart2{b}> I don't agree
* Johncin thinks that humilation is ok in "play" but not in real life
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> and if you want to get to me do verbal embarrassment
<nimeesha{JFC}> some forms of humiliation can cause irreversable emotional and pshycological damage
<kittn{AF}> it is all new but not necessarily humilliating
* bottoms_up38 chuckles to Lancaster... humiliation was never part of D/s to me ;)
<BraveHeart2{b}> that's when it becomes a putdown
* autumn`breeze{JFC} looks around for Franklin
<BernieRoehl> Another example -- I was visiting some friends a while back, and one of the Doms had his submissive show everyone her new hood piercing. She blushed *very* red, but it was also clear that the experience was very arousing for her.
<BraveHeart2{b}> so that was good humiliation then!!
<bottoms_up38> mmmm sweet ;)
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i would enjoy that kind of embarrassment Bernie
<Grizzly_AL> that would be like me telling kittn to show you her nipple piercings Bernie
<Stevius> I see a close analogy between pain and humiliation, they are both "bad" negative words, but when used to a purpose and in the right context, they can be very arousing
<BernieRoehl> Exactly
<kittn{AF}> kinda but not really Master
<Grizzly_AL> but it would be exciting to you kittn
<Opal``> what about the Dom/me?.. how much of an ego rush is it to humiliate someone in front of others and show off their control?
<kittn{AF}> it the same as showing off the dimples
<BernieRoehl> (And of course the fact that she was aroused added to her embarrassment, which made her more aroused, and so on...)
* bottoms_up38 shivers at that word .. humiliation ;(
<kittn{AF}> the nipples are easier to show still a little embarassing but not that bad
<Grizzly_AL> but everyone likes your dimples kittn
<BraveHeart2{b}> there is no ned to humiliate to control!!!
<Srdkside> can some forms of humiliation be perceived as a conduit for serving by the sub?
<kittn{AF}> i prefer "embarass" to humiliate"
<bottoms_up38> me too kittn ;)
<nimeesha{JFC}> well i have to admit to being a bit of an exibitionist so it is hard to embarrass me
<Lancaster``> good point kitten
<firestar`DC> Master Dragonchaser here.. one must weigh the factors .. if it is done to arouse or highten the submissives esteem or pleasure then it is good .. if done to hurt or in revenge or to demean or distroy ones selfesteem then it is no good
<kittn{AF}> because thay are forms of the same thing
<Lancaster``> makes sense firestar
<bottoms_up38> agree Dragonchaser ;)
<BernieRoehl> That's a good point, DC
<BraveHeart2{b}> the truth be known there is a fine line between good and bad humiliation
<kittn{AF}> but embarassment ppl can laugh at themselves and enjoy it but humiliation makes you never want to show your face again
<nimeesha{JFC}> good point kitten
<bottoms_up38> when a Dom asks me if i am into humiliation... i RUN from them.. cause i think they believe in negativity and hurtful things. Maybe i should stop and listen to see if they mean it that way... hmmmm
<kittn{AF}> *smile softly*
<BraveHeart2{b}> got to go all
<kittn{AF}> what if they asked you if you were into embarassment instead of humiliation
<Grizzly_AL> it is easy to run bottoms_up38 but it is harder to sit and see what is said befor you juge
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> when humiliation involves the vanilla world i don't agree
<BernieRoehl> What about other things that might be embarrassing or humiliating? For example, for those into roleplaying, there are a lot of possibilities.
<dalian> well bottoms...i would be like you and run fast...the undertone of that statement would be enough for me not to trust them...whether i'm right or wrong doesnt matter
<Srdkside> depending on the subs personality, character and so on some types of humiliation could be employed to foster growth
<bottoms_up38> the term is so negative to me Al.. that i just ASSUMED everyone knew it was a negative... i will try to be more open minded *smiles*
* Johncin agrees with autumn
* bottoms_up38 smiles to dalian
<Lancaster``> pokes bottoms
* BernieRoehl thinks of other examples
<bottoms_up38> ;)
<Lancaster``> likes to see subbies blush
<bottoms_up38> sorry Bernie, not much help here.... not into it ;)
<nimeesha{JFC}> it is not fair to bring unsuspecting people into our play..although gas station attendants don't count right breeze?
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> ok difference between embarrassment and humiliation?
<Grizzly_AL> i know as with the pics Bernie that even the thought that i am going to send them out will get kittn going
<bottoms_up38> lol
<Lancaster``> embarressed
<BernieRoehl> For those into schoolroom scenes, there's an element of embarrassment in having the bratty submissive having to stand in the corner wearing a dunce cap
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> oh yeah short skirts hmmmm??
<kittn{AF}> *nods* as a new set is in the works
<Lancaster``> to do something silly
<nimeesha{JFC}> hey i had a 3rd grade teacher that stood me in the corner with a dunce sign...and tape on my mouth...and yes it was mortifying
<Grizzly_AL> to me getting kittn embarressed is to make her blush and squarm around
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> did she use the cane nimeesha{JFC}
<kittn{AF}> *nods* he's good at it too
<nimeesha{JFC}> can not imagine it done to me as an adult LOL
<BernieRoehl> Of course, that was in a "vanilla" context nimeesha{JFC}
<bottoms_up38> ohhh i thought of one.. kinda silly i guess to you guys ;)
<kittn{AF}> do tell botts
<Lancaster``> nimeesha i had somewhat the same threat from a teacher ended up getting me explelled because of my mouth
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, bottoms
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> that is the Dom in You Lancaster``
* bottoms_up38 feels embarassed when a Dom shows his control over me in public.. fet nights included, and i react submissively. i prefer that not to be seen .. just my playful bottom side ;)
<nimeesha{JFC}> well .. i was not very submissive in school LOL
<Lancaster``> i refused and told her what i thought
<Grizzly_AL> but i would not humilater her becouse then all she wants to do is crawl in a hole and be left alone and that is not what i am looking for
<bottoms_up38> told ya it was silly :)
<Opal``> why is that silly?
<Grizzly_AL> that is the way you feel bottoms_up38 so it is not silly
<bottoms_up38> its the best i can do *chuckles*
<kittn{AF}> there are some that don't feel comfy showing their submissive side in public
<Lancaster``> bottoms has little Domme in her it sounds
<Grizzly_AL> stating your feelings is never silly it is part of who you are
<`abi> why is that silly bottoms...I think it illustrates rather clearly that it is the resulting feeling and not the action which defines humiliation
<Stevius> thats an excellent example bottoms
<kittn{AF}> to be known as one and seen as one are two different things to some ppl
<Opal``> i was beginning to think that Doms never use humiliation to display their control
<kittn{AF}> Master uses embarassment to showhis control over me all the time
<nimeesha{JFC}> sometimes when told by a Dom to do something embarrassing it gives the sub a chance to show her loyaltiy to Him by doing it
<Opal``> so is it for his benefit .. or yours?
* kittn{AF} remembers halloween at the Reverb
<kittn{AF}> both
<Grizzly_AL> i dont use it to show my control but to see your reaction kittn
<kittn{AF}> and to show me off
<Opal``> how do you know when the balance has shifted more towards his benefit?
<kittn{AF}> "doesn't she blush a lovely shade of red"
<Grizzly_AL> hey you had fun with Philip and being on the bench
<Lancaster``> would it be considered that embarrase ment or humiliation is punishment instead of flogging or spanking
<kittn{AF}> i'm thinking of when i was first introduced to him
<Grizzly_AL> he liked your blush
<Lancaster``> most subs like like flogging and spanking
<`abi> I think to use humiliation as punishment would be crossing a dangerous emotional line Lancaster
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> flogging and spanking is pleasure
<bottoms_up38> hmmmm not sure Lancaster...
<Grizzly_AL> i agree abi
<bottoms_up38> it just squicks me but i cant say why
<kittn{AF}> but told to stand and take off my skirt and show my butt
<kittn{AF}> before i was introduced tohim
* Opal`` puts on her best geee gosh golly face
<Grizzly_AL> kittn you knew who he was as soon as you seen him
<kittn{AF}> no.. it was dark
<kittn{AF}> i didn't recognize him till i was right up near him
<kittn{AF}> all i knew was you knew him
<Grizzly_AL> and you trusted me that he was a good guy
<BernieRoehl> So far we've mostly been discussing female submissives. In talking to female Dommes, I get the sense that male submissives are much more eager for humiliation play than many female subs are.
<kittn{AF}> yes... but it was still a blushable moment
<bottoms_up38> does a Dom test out his planned humilation sometimes.. with story telling, an article or just casually talking about different scenarios... to see the react of the sub? Then pick and chose what he feels she reacts positively to?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, bottoms -- at least, I do. I'll sometimes assign a submissive a task of writing a story involving some element of embarrassment/humiliation, to see where her boundaries are.
<bottoms_up38> yes Bernie, i would agree that the consensus is male subs are into humiliation. The major of my subs i have spoken to... are like that also
<dalian> good idea Bernie
<Grizzly_AL> that is a verry good idea Bernie
<`abi> as long as it's clear that the "story" may become a reality
<bottoms_up38> humiliation play outta the blue ... without being very sure that the sub will find some element of enjoyment in it...is dangerous. hard to do ;)
<Grizzly_AL> i feel you have to know the sub well to do that bottoms_up38
<`abi> asking a submissive to fantasize about humiliation does not ensure that what she shares as a fantasy is within the realms of an acceptable r/l experience
<dalian> the idea that a Dom is derriving extreme pleasure out of making me feel very squicky is...well...makes me nervous in a distrusting kind of way
<bottoms_up38> someone mentioned tossing many different humilation stories... watching the eyes, the breath, the body language... to get ideas. I like that view because it isnt just ONE story that i think will happen.
<bottoms_up38> agreed abi
<BernieRoehl> I remember attending a small dinner party at a friend's house, and she had her male submissive cross-dressed and serving all of us. It was his first time being seen by others while dressed, and it was both humiliating and very exciting for him.
* Demoneira nods at abi, what I write is far beyond what I would do because I'm trying to work it out in my head
<bottoms_up38> do you think it would ruin the feeling of humilation and excitement mixed...if you completely went over the plan with the sub and they agreed?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, watching their reactions is important bottoms. And of course, watching how someone reacts when she realizes her fantasy is starting to become reality is *very* important -- it lets you know how far you can take her in the story.
<kittn{AF}> no... cause knowing whats cokming and experiencing it are two seperate events
<Lancaster``> with knowing what is going to happen there is an element of anticipation
<nimeesha{JFC}> sometimes the lead up to doing something is a turn on in its self
* bottoms_up38 votes for total consensuality then... planned humiliation... IF i was into it *grin*
<Stevius> dalian, I would say that the point of embarrasment/humiliation is to develop trust, or show trust....so if you don't have that special bond, you are right to be cautious
<kittn{AF}> knoing you have to stand nude befoe someone you don't know will make you nervous and actually doing it is the embarassment and xcitement
<Lancaster``> like telling a sub she is going to recieve a good spanking in a few days and every time you remind her she may blush depending on her own character
<`vixie> if you told me that Lancaster, i'd be jumping up and down and counting down the time ;)
<`abi> humiliation is mindplay...and mindplay isn't something that should never be undertaken unless you know pretty precisely what the result will be... which means knowing the person well
<Lancaster``> lol at vixie
<bottoms_up38> rofl.. me too vix!
<`abi> delete the double negative
* `vixie winks at bottoms
<bottoms_up38> agreed again abi ;)
<Stevius> I agree abi, precisely
<bottoms_up38> humiliation play is more considered edge play to me ;)
<`abi> stop agreeing with me bottoms...it makes me nervous ;)
<Lancaster``> having your sub wear no panties under a skirt and making her lift it and sit on her tush in a restaurant
<Grizzly_AL> LOL
<bottoms_up38> rofl abi
<bottoms_up38> well then abi.. STOP thinking like me *giggles*
<`abi> lol
* jewell{T} wonders if Thor has been talking to Lancaster
<kittn{AF}> not even having to sit on bare tush for me...
<bottoms_up38> mmmm not humiliating at all.. yummmmm
* autumn`breeze{JFC} does that all the time
<nimeesha{JFC}> *grins*
<Lancaster``> bottoms that is embarrasement to some
<`vixie> tis embarassing to me
* `abi nods ...that's why we only have munches in restaurants with leather chairs ;)
<bottoms_up38> yup Lancaster... the same as i said kneeling at someones feet
<bottoms_up38> everyone reacts differently *warm smiles*
<Grizzly_AL> what about doing a exam in a short skirt and no panties kittn
<kittn{AF}> not wearing panties makes me self conscious and a little embaassed specially when i'm so turned on i have to go to the washroom every now and then to clean up
<kittn{AF}> that was awckward to say the least
<bottoms_up38> lol kittn *hugs*
<BernieRoehl> If they bell the marks, kittn, it may even help your grade! :-)
<Lancaster``> what about making the sub ask for permission to use the washroom
<Grizzly_AL> Bernie she is talking of that munch again when she had her boots on
<kittn{AF}> it was a year ago feb.. and no one knew
<kittn{AF}> i barely passed that course as it was
<Grizzly_AL> and it will be coming up again kittn
<nimeesha{JFC}> permission to use the washroom is not embarrasment it is a way of showing respect..in my opinion
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> Lancaster`` knows Franklin
<bottoms_up38> done that.. not humiliating or embarassing... just a show of power ;) AS long as it isnt with my family or friends around ;)
<`vixie> depends on the circumstances though nimeesha{JFC}
<`vixie> if you have to beg permission in a restaurant it could be very humiliating
<`abi> and the submissive ... what is de rigeur to one of us may be hugely embarrassing for another
<bottoms_up38> see... all the different reactions. *Grin*
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> this is one of Franklin's rules
<bottoms_up38> abi... lol
<nimeesha{JFC}> one just learns to ask *before* she has to go really really badly LOL
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> it is a control thing
<Lancaster``> takes note of nieesha trick,,must watch for acting
<BernieRoehl> Well, just five minutes left in the discussion. Anyone have any closing thoughts?
<Lancaster``> embarrassment is fun humiliation is not for me
<nimeesha{JFC}> *smiles* at Lancaster
* kittn{AF} agrees
<bottoms_up38> humiliation is edgeplay... be very wary of the damage it can do. Something left to people who know each other VERY well... and my vote is for consensual planned humiliation *Grin*
<Grizzly_AL> i have to agree with you Lancaster`` on that one
<Lancaster``> it is up to the Dom to know the difference with his sub
<Grizzly_AL> i like to watch kittn blush when i can
<kittn{AF}> ebarassment is one thing humiliation is another and mortification is one i won't go into
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> ever seen 2 subbies squriming for permission to go pee
<nimeesha{JFC}> embarassment can be a lot of fun...agreed that humiliation is not fun at all
<Srdkside> communicate, be cautious and know your victim well
<Lancaster``> autumn breeze no but I would certainly love too
<bottoms_up38> lol breezy
<nimeesha{JFC}> *winks* at breeze
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> if You go to DSSG Ham You just mite
<BernieRoehl> And on that note, let's wrap up the discussion
<Lancaster``> I1`ll be there Tuesday maybe
<bottoms_up38> thank you Bernie *hugs*
<BernieRoehl> I'm going to close the log here, but feel free to keep chatting informally
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> nimeesha{JFC} won't be
<Grizzly_AL> thanks Bernie gret topic tonight
<Johncin> thanks Bernie
* `abi hands Bernie some duct tape .... for wrapping
<nimeesha{JFC}> nimeesha won't be in Hamilton *pouts*
<Lancaster``> very good and fun topic
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> nite Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated! I should have the log uploaded later tonight